Talk:Saltire/Archive 1

Merger
Though I've never heard this term used before in heraldic blazon, the article is clearly describing the saltire. I think that the article out to be merged in there. It certainly doesn't warrent its own article.-- E va   d  b  11:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think all three pages should be merged and rewritten. --evrik 20:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If there is to be a merger, it ought to be under saltire rather than under Saint Andrew's Cross, which is more specific (giving the colors) and more parochial. &mdash;Tamfang 02:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Merge completed. All the titles redirect to one article. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 10:47, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * This should so be under Saltire, not Saint Andrew's Cross. The St Andrew's cross, as on the flag of Scotland, is azure a saltire argent. A saltire, in heraldry, is the standard name for any X-shaped cross, and can be any colour; serious heralds don't describe a saltire as a "St Andrew's cross" unless it has those colours. Marnanel 12:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

This encyclopedia isn't for serious heralds, it is for general readers. It is a shame you chimed in after the merge was completed, because you may be right. Should we put in a requested move to administrators, to move the Saint Andrew's Cross article to Saltire?

Tamfang seems to differ from my understanding of the consensus (see edit summary.) On the three articles merged (Saint Andrew's Cross (BDSM), Saltire and Crux decussata the proposal on each was to merge to Saint Andrew's Cross. Also, in 6 months of debate, Evadb and Evrik expressed support, and I agreed.  Only Tamfang objected.

Nevertheless, since Marnanel and Tamfang feel so strongly about this, we should discuss a move. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 09:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Also see Caranom's comment below which supports a move. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 09:36, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I said the consensus "so far as it could be discerned" was for Saltire, because only Evadb and I had explicitly stated a preference, and that preference was for Saltire. &mdash;Tamfang 04:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I regret that I misread Evadb's comment. Evrik proposed the 3-way merge into Saint Andrew's Cross, not Evadb as I had thought.  Sorry.  I still support your request to move the lot to Saltire.  --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 12:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Expert tag
I have tagged the heraldry section for expert attention, as the material in some places implies that Saint Andrew's Cross and Saltire mean the same thing, and in other places implies there is a difference, such as the colour. It needs a heraldic expert to fix it. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 10:47, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * From A new Dictionary of heraldry by Stephen Friar:


 * Saltire An ordinary. A diagonal cross on which St Andrew, the patron saint of scotland, is said to have been crucified, hence its popularity in that country where a silver saltire on a blue field is the national device. However, its use in Celtic art clearly pre-dates Christianity, and the saltire is the foundation of most circular knotwork of scottish and Irish Pictish interlacing panels.
 * The word may derive from the Old French "saultoir" and the Latin "saltare", meaning to leap...


 * One of the french books I have on the subject (my main heraldic source) makes no distinction (the index reference for Saint Andrew's cross points to the saltire ("sautoir") entry...). Personally I also used to associate Saint Andrew's cross with the Scottish flag only (implying colours), but I now believe that to be a popular culture issue. I'd recommend moving the article to saltire as it's the name with greater relevance.--Caranorn 11:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Can we remove the expert tag, then? --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 09:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I consider myself an amateur, I'd wait until at least a second person from the Vexilogy and Heraldry project has chimed in. Another reason is that most of my heraldic knowledge stems from french language sources.--Caranorn 12:04, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

merge into Saltire. --  tariq abjotu  10:45, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Saint Andrew's Cross → Saltire — Preferred title after articles merged (need to preserve history of both pages) Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 10:03, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Survey
Add  * Support   or   * Oppose   on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~.


 * Support Simply put, a Saint Andrew's cross is a saltire, but not every saltire is derived from the Saint Andrew's cross. I'd consider my support moderate, I can live with either but would consider saltire more appropriate.--Caranorn 12:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support saltire is the more inclusive term. &mdash;Tamfang 04:25, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support per nomination. -  AjaxSmack    05:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
Add any additional comments:
 * I have no strong feelings myself, but I started this process after three users (mentioned above) expressed strong support for the merged article to be Saltire. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 10:57, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I feel that the article should be moved to Cross Saltire, which is a more formal name for the symbol. This would also present a compromise between the two sides.  Dulcimerist 06:36, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think there are 2 sides; no-one has expressed a strong feeling in favor of Saint Andrew's Cross.  However Cross Saltire sounds fine also. What do others think?  --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 12:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Saltire Cross would be another option. Could the articles for Saltire, Saint Andrew's Cross, and Saint Patrick's Cross all be merged into either Saltire Cross or Cross Saltire?  Thanks!  -- Dulcimerist 18:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * (Note that I already merged the material at Saltire into Saint Andrew's Cross) --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 12:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Alternate Request to Merge Article
Based on discussions in the Saltire and Saint Andrew's Cross articles, I request that Saint Patrick's Flag be merged into wherever those two articles eventually become merged into. I propose a new article entitled Saltire Cross; encompassing the heraldic design and origin of the Saltire (also called the St. Andrew's Cross and St. Patrick's Cross), and the design's use on flags such as those of both Scotland and Ireland. This would consolidate similar information, expand overall information on the same subject (the saltire), eliminate confusion, and make things more user-friendly. Thanks! --Dulcimerist 19:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The Wikipedia flag of Amsterdam image page could also be referenced, as that flag contains three saltires. I would like to post the tag to request a merger to [Saltire Cross]] instead of Saltire, but it would likely confuse things, since the saltire merger discussion is still ongoing.  --Dulcimerist 19:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I oppose a merge with Saint Patrick's Flag. I think notable individual flag articles stand well on their own; see also Flag of Scotland.   However if Cross Saltire is ever to aspire to be a Featured Article, it would include lengthy sections about both flags, so please go ahead and expand the material aboutthe Saint Patrick / Fitzgerald cross and flag in this article.  --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 18:49, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Why does "Saint Andrew's Cross" redirect to Saltire instead of "Flag of Scotland" (as "Saint Andrew's Flag" does)? "Saint Patrick's Cross" redirects to "Saint Patrick's Flag" why shouldn't "Saint Andrew's" too? I was going to change it, but there were alot of markings on the page and I got confused about what they were saying and didn't want to mess it up. Num1dgen 19:14, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Blue and white?
"a true St. Andrew's Cross is always blue and white." Says who? Saint Andrew was crucified on an X-shaped cross of unspecified colour. The Flag of Alabama is described as a St Andrew's Cross. Joestynes 19:58, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

In addition to the link to the flag of Scotland page, should there not be a link to "Saint Andrew's Cross (BDSM)" ?

"For the BDSM equipment, see Saint Andrew's Cross (BDSM)" ? 24.226.31.187 17:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Is there a way to include a differentiation between the St. Andrew's and St. Patrick's crosses? Both are the same design; but the former with white on a blue field, and the latter with red on a white field. Dulcimerist 07:02, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * That only goes to show that classification by saltire would be more appropriate.--Caranorn 12:41, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with that. However, I feel that Saltire Cross would be a more appropriate name for the new classification. In any case, both St. Andrew's Cross and St. Patrick's Cross would be placed together under the Saltire Cross description. - Dulcimerist 18:00, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

decuss(at)a
My Latin dictionary translates decussare (the verb whose participle would be decussata) as divide crosswise, in the form of an X; this would appear to be a derivative of a form such as crux decussa (from the verb decutere), a cross knocked over. In any case, nothing to do with decem. &mdash;Tamfang 06:08, 15 October 2006 (UTC)