Talk:Salvador Allende/Archive 2

recently cut
The following passages were recently cut from the article. Offhand, I'm not convinced these cuts are beneficial (although the second one was, perhaps, poorly placed and belongs more in the "legacy" section):

As provided in the Chilean constitution, the national legislature had to choose between Allende and the next-highest vote-getter (Alessandri), and they voted for Allende. This was quite ironic for him, since he had actually obtained a higher percentage of the vote in the previous presidential election, six years earlier (however, in that election, there had been no strong third candidate like the one in 1970). The coup that many Chileans hoped would protect the constitution actually resulted in its destruction. Pinochet ruled, unelected, for seventeen years. His government's human rights abuses left more than three thousand Chileans dead or missing during the long period of dictatorship.

Without the first passage, the article now has no explanation at all of how he became president without a majority; this is as notable as (say) how Rutherford B. Hayes became president of the United States, but the article now glosses it over.

As for the second passage, I would think it should be expanded upon (and relevant citations found) rather than removed: many people, including many Chilean politicians, who supported the coup became rapidly disillusioned with Pinochet, and, inevitably, some also revised their opinion of Allende either in a more favorable direction (by contrast) or less favorable (as a contibutor to a crisis that laid the country low).

I'd also think there should be mention of the fact that a generation grew up in the Pinchet years hearing only anti-Allende propaganda in school, but as Pinchet's image had become more and more tarnished, Allende's reputation among that generation is on the rise.

I'd like to hear what some other people have to say before I edit: also, I consider myself knowledgable but not expert on this, and would be very happy if someone genuinely expert would take it on. -- Jmabel 03:43, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)


 * I have no opinion on the first paragraph, and agree this issue should be mentioned. I removed the second because it's a highly incomplete summary of a complex issue.  Pinochet's legacy is debated today both in Chile and abroad, and he has supporters.  None of this has anything do with Salvador Allende, however, and he is the subject of the article.  There is an article Augusto Pinochet where this controversy is collected (and fought over viciously).  Any supposed "give-and-take" between Pinochet's reputation and Allende's is speculative at best and certainly minor; one would think he'd be evaluated on his own merits. V V  04:43, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"It has been suggested"
Recent anonymous addition: "It has been suggested that the CIA aided Pinochet by allowing him to study the outdated documents explaining military tactics and the formation of the CIA itself." I suppose this statement makes itself trivially true, but has it been suggested by someone of any significance? If so, cite. If not, it should not be in the article. -- Jmabel 17:14, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)


 * Could be true, but I don't know of any source for it either. Probably should be removed for now. Cadr 17:42, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree and I've removed it. JamesMLane 03:24, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Moved a link
I moved a link from the "External links" section to the "Also see..." section. Regards. Johdl 04:54, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

reverting two edits
I'm reverting two recent anoymous edits not because they are necessarily wrong, but because they are confusing. If someone can clarify, the infomation in these may well belong in the article.


 * 1) "...but Allende dismissed such allegations" became "...but Allende dismissed such allegations and even enforced the Senats [sic] power to overrule or delay his decisions and plans." Obviously "Senats" is "Senate's", but what does this mean that he "enforced" their power? Maybe "abided by"? And why should this be singled out in the second paragraph of the article?
 * 2) "This included nationalization of certain large-scale industries (notably copper)" became "This included nationalization of certain large-scale industries (notably copper) meaning 150 workers employed or more". Two problems here: (1) this edit suggests, I believe falsely, that all businesses over 150 employees were nationalized. (2) the sentence doesn't flow. Given that the exact meaning isn't clear (just what was nationalized?), I'd hope to see a citation.

If you are the person who wrote the reverted passages and if you can express yourself more clearly in Spanish than in English, feel free to respond in Spanish & I can translate for you. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:31, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)

Did he shoot himself (revisited)
While I think it is perfectly likely that Allende killed himself with a machine gun, there is still no cited source for the claim that his personal doctor said that he committed suicide. As I understand it, that doctor was, himself, a victim of the Pinochet government not long after. I'm not saying this is false, I'm just saying no one seems to have a citation. Also, even if the doctor said this, it is unclear (1) whether he made this statement on the basis of first-hand knowledge or just hearsay (i.e. did he actually see the death scene and/or the body) and (2) made this assertion in a context where he could be presumed free of coercion.

The autopsy, presumably by the victorious forces, would do little to settle the matter.

As for the circumstantial detail that follows this in the article, "On the stock of the gun was a gold plate with the words "To my good friend Salvador Allende from Fidel Castro" engraved in it," yes, there was such a gun, but again, this was added separately without citation. Why should anyone believe, even if he killed himself, that he did it with this particular gun? Again, I have seen no citation. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:49, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)


 * "also, no one has been able to produce any citation on the claim that his personal doctor said that he committed suicide. I've asked." You can find the interview with the eye-witness, Dr. Patricio Guijón (who by the way, was not Allende's personal doctor, but just one of the doctors that happened to be assigned to La Moneda Palace's infirmary) in pag. 282 and followings of the book "El dia en que murio Allende" ("The day that Allende Died") compiled by Mr Ignacio Gonzalez Camus, the Chilean Institute of Humanistic Studies (ICHEH) and the CESOC, in 1988.

As to the questions, Dr. Guijón has declared: (1) that he made this statement on the basis of first-hand knowledge (he was actually present at the instant of death and he remained next to the body); (2) he made his statement inmediately (within minutes) of the death, repeated it several times to his fellow inmates while in a prison camp (Isla Dawson Prison Camp) while he was confined there (there are several witnesses, including present Education Minister, Mr. Sergio Bitar, who has included the version in his own account of his prison days) in a moment in which he could be presumed free of coercion, and has repeated it without changes up to today.

''At the time of Mr Allende's reinterment in Santiago, in 1990, there was a medical examination of his remains, in order to confirm the identity, and to dispel rumors about his end. At that time it was confirmed that the only physical injury apreciable was a massive head injury that is compatible with a suicide wound.''

''I recommend Mr. Camus's book as being probably the only book that is completely based on personal interviews with the "then" (1988) survivors, from both sides of the coup, and probably one of the more impartial ones written to date. By the way, I am also trying to find the newspaper interview with Mrs. Isabel Allende, surviving daughter of Mr. Allende, and a member of the Chilean Congress to date, in which she acknowledges the fact that Mr. Allende committed suicide. That interview happened when she took office as president of the Chamber of Deputies a couple of years back, and caused quite a stir on the leftist political parties at the time.'' Mel Romero 00:49, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * That explains some of the discrepancy. I assumed that "Allende's personal doctor" could only mean Enrique Paris Roa. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:45, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

Interview with Allende
After reading a recent column by Georgie Anne Geyer, I was intrigued by the following:


 * When I interviewed Allende just before he became "the world's first elected Marxist president," I asked him whether, if he were elected, there would be elections again. "You must understand," he answered carefully but revealingly, "that by the next elections, everything will have changed." This threat of Marxist change in a country unprepared to deal with it assured that his regime would not last.

http://www.uexpress.com/georgieannegeyer/?uc_full_date=20030131

How and or should this be incorporated into the article? TDC 22:26, Dec 23, 2004 (UTC)


 * Cautiously, at best: after all, we have only Geyer's impression that this implied that Allende would avoid having a next round of elections. Nothing in his conduct as president particularly suggests that, and it seems extremely unlikely that the Christian Democrats would have voted in congress to let him take office if they agreed with Geyer's estimation. I think it would be OK (but not terribly useful) to indicate here that Geyer held this opinion, and she's certainly a respectable foreign correspondent, but it's just one opinion among many, and I'm not sure it's particularly worth putting in an encyclopedia article on Allende. Certainly worth putting in an article on Geyer, who probably deserves one. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:40, Dec 23, 2004 (UTC)

Wages
I notice that "Allende responded with massive price control measures and by a constant raising of the basic salaries..." was recently changed to "Allende responded with massive price control measures and by a constant raising of the minimum wage..." without any citation. Was the old information wrong or are these two terms equivalent? Were only minimum wages raised? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:06, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

Comments
I just think it's interesting that the person praised as a democratic visionary by socialists was an admirer of Joseph Stalin. Not that he enacted any kind of Stalinist police state, but it kinda makes you wonder. J. Parker Stone 03:57, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Poet Pablo Neruda and artist Siqueiros were Stalinists too, back then being in favour of Stalin was not much different, as it was cold war, and the united states held a mayor power in all south america (so a lot of scorn was around, specially in Chile, were american corporations already had made 80 billion dollars by the explotation of chilean mines). People sympathized with russia, but most left wing revolutionaries were in favour of Trotsky, not Stalin. Allende was in part betrayed by the USSR, as Allende went to Russia and asked them for support, the russians sayd no, only giving a small help of weath buyed in Australia, as several boicotts were in place in Chile at that time. The reasson, it has been speculated, and most likely its true, was because Russia and America had been negotiating, and America would be willing to remove their forces from Viet Nam if Russia would stop giving help to South America. Of course, one wonders if this is true, and the only way to do so is to look at outer factors, as in the 70s all of South America was in the hands of numerous Dictatorships, all of them supported by the US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kessingler (talk • contribs) 11 Oct 2005 This comment was added by Kessingler to the archive page and was never in the original talk page.

Suicide, again
I notice there has been quite an edit war recently over the question of whether Allende is definitively known to have committed suicide. I'm not goint to participate in the edit war, but I strongly suggest the parties move the issue to the talk page rather than the article, or I am liable to ask for page protection.

For whatever it is worth: I long presumed that the reports of Allende's suicide were false, and that he had been murdered during the coup. As I understand it (and it would be good if someone had a citation for this), at this point his own family seems satisfied with the evidence of suicide, and that seems pretty solid to me.

The matter has been greatly complicated by false claims that his "personal physician" attested the suicide, which appears not to be true. However, just as you can present false evidence against a guilty person, you can present false evidence for a truth. -- Jmabel | Talk 15:55, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

3RR
I blocked the anon user 200.30.222.170 (talk &middot; contributions) for violating the 3RR, but it was pointed out to me that no-one had bothered to tell him about the rule, or warned him of the consequences of breaking it &mdash; despite the fact that he reverted eleven times in a row. I've unblocked him, explaining why. In future, it would be better to warn the User in question before lodging a complaint on the Administrator's Noticeboard; the 3RR isn't knowable a prior... --Mel Etitis ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 22:01, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am convinced 200.30.222.170 was, who did the same reverts 4 times and was warned by me about the 3RR rule. I can't believe they are not the same person, in the light of which I think he should be reblocked? --SqueakBox 22:39, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC).
 * Ruopollo, who had clearly taken over from 200.30.222.170 in the edit war stopped after I sent him my note, but 200.30.222.170 then comes back later to revert 5 more tiimes. Unless 200.30.222.170 is not Ruopollo he can have no justification for not knowing the rules, --SqueakBox 22:54, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)


 * You're almost certainly right (identical changes kind of give that away), but I'd be inclined to let the matter drop now. Neither has edited for a couple of hours. And they've both been warned. So, if and when they come back, we can start afresh. Perhaps he/she/they'll engage in some dialogue next time round. –Hajor 23:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, in that case you still need to give a formal warning to 200.30.222.170 (in case you're wrong, and to make any block justified and legitimate), and then you need to inform Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents as well as the 3RR page (in both cases giving the full details). Mel Etitis ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 09:11, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have been the one doing the changes. I am Chilean, there is not a single serious complaint that Allende was murdered. His daughter, Isabel Allende, currently president of the chamber of deputies has accepted this, two of his personal doctors and life long friends, Drs. Soto and Jiron (http://www.estocolmo.se/chile/jiron.htm), have talked about the same. I can provide links to books and films if needed. The official biography from the Presidency of Chile, in the current administration of Socialist Ricardo Lagos, says he commited suicide. (http://www.presidencia.cl/view/viewGaleriaPresidentes.asp?id=31&seccion=Galeria%20Presidentes&interfazseccion=Galeria%20Presidentes#a31) So who are those supporters who claim he was murdered? Nobody serious. His closest people all admit it was suicide. But in wikipedia apparently you guys are more worried to put personal views rather than facts. Of course some might say Allende was killed. Some people say the holocaust didn't happen. I don't think anybody here thinks there is any "discussion" about that one too. Instead of putting he commited suicide at the top of the page as I have been doing, I will put all these FACTS in the discussion of the SUICIDE. Is that OK or is that also too much and needs to be deleted? (unsigned, User:Ruopollo 19 April 2005)

Translation
Somebody can translate the Spanish article that is more complete that this (anon 29 April 2005)
 * Feel free to put in a request at WP:TIE. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:39, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)

Sucide one last time
How does one kill oneself with a machine gun? Wouldn't the recoil act against that? Watsonladd 21:35, May 5, 2005 (UTC)


 * I imagine you'd be dead from the first bullet or two before recoil became an issue. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:23, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

OK, it's obviously not "one last time". Recently, anonymously added: "Another version says that Allende was killed in combat on the steps outside the Presidential Palace." No citation. Is there any reason to keep this in the article? I'm inclined to delete, but not unilaterally. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:23, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

If someone is looking for a moderately small research project, it might be worth assembling who said what at what date about the mode of Allende's death. This obviously keeps coming up, so we might as well gather what is out there. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:23, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

"Antisemitism and Euthanasia"
Literally every other reference I can find on the web to Salvador Allende: Antisemitism and Euthanasia by Víctor Farías is a repetition of one identical item, according to which the book isn't even published yet. So let me ask: has the person who is citing it here seen an advance copy? Is there any basis to consider it a credible source? Is it actually published somewhere (in which case please add publication information)? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:29, May 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see, it has come out in Spanish. Then it should be cited by its Spanish title an publication information, no? And I still ask, have those who are citing it actually read it, or are they just repeating what they saw on a blog someplace? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:31, May 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Here's a review, in Spanish, from someone obviously very anti-Allende, but much more substantive than the one thing that's been floating around in English. By the way, this remarks that Farías does not assert that the Nazi Walter Rauff financed Allende's 1969 parliamentary campaign, although remarks on "some believing" this. Quoting from that review:
 * "Higiene mental y delincuencia (Mental Hygiene and Delinquency), which is the title of the book written by Allende in 1933, according to the exhumation and revelation by Víctor Farías, defends the thesis of the most blatant antisemitism. The Jews, according to Allende, are characterized by determined forms of crime: "''fraud, falsehood, calumny, and, above all, usury". Allende was an antisemite who intellectually promoted the massive sterilization and "eugenic science" of the Nazis not only in this book, but in the initiative which, later, in 1939, he led as minister of health in the Unidad Popular government of president Aguirre-Cerda (1939-1941)."
 * For whatever it's worth, I've looked at this and a few other things on line and suspect that Farías' "euthanasia" may be an exaggeration: lots of people writing, most of them hostile to Allende, none citing any actual endorsement of euthanasia, just of eugenics.
 * So what are we left with? I haven't seen the book, so I'm just going by reviews, but if the gist of the reviews is accurate, then Allende in the 1930s was an antisemite and a supporter of eugenics. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:53, May 20, 2005 (UTC)


 * The book is quite good. It is short and the author pretty much let's Allende's thesis do the talking. The Allende Foundation is going to publish the thesis to try to prove Farias wrong, but his project of law whe he was minister of health still stands. Anyway, I want to know something. Someone put on a footnote that Allende's mother was jewish. According to who? The Gossens family came to Chile from Belgium and were devouted catholics. From what source do we know they were jewish? In fact I would say that affirmation is wrong. (anon, 2 June 2005)

Here is a rebuttal to Farias's claims from the Allende Foundation: They accuse Farias of conflating Allende's summaries of then-current theories about crime with his actual beliefs. They include specific quotes from the thesis, rejecting the theory that Jews and other races are predisposed to various crimes, and quote the conclusion of the thesis where Allende concludes that criminal nature stems both from human nature and from the influence of society (and not from . It is clear, in any case, that Farias's research is not NPOV and his allegations should not be repeated uncritically in the Allende article. I also believe that this POV disqualifies his 'fascism' slur from appearing in this article -- if we're going to "teach the controversy" it should probably be in an article about Farias or his book. I took a first stab at the paragraph, but I doubt that it will be the last one. Eliot 23:05, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The thesis itself has been released, so now we can use primary sources in the construction of this article. Eliot 23:06, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I see that this has recently been changed again, saying that "Farías maintains the affirmations that appear in his book" and removing the statement that the thesis itself refutes him. I didn't read the entire thesis, but I read chunks of it, and it sure seems to me like Farías was entirely off base here. Has he published a rebuttal of what the Allende Foundation has to say, or is he just standing firm in the face of all evidence? If he has actually rebutted particular points, we should cite a document where he does that. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:33, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Needing at least an improved citation
From the current state of the article:

"After Pinochet assumed power, U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger told U.S. President Richard Nixon that the U.S. 'didn't do it' (referring to the coup itself) but had 'created the conditions as great as possible', including leading economic sanctions."

The quoted phrase is not on the referenced web page (though the reference is clearly relevant to the article in general), and the quoted phrase is not good English, which makes it unlikely that it is an accurate quote of Kissinger, whose use of English is generally correct, if not always inspired. Does anyone have an accurate quotation and a citation? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:30, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

Dubious inclusion
The recently added external link The Myth of Allende leads to what appears to be just an anti-Allende piece on someone's personal blog. I think it shouldn't be here, but rather than delete it unilaterally, I figured I'd ask for comments first. Is there a justification for keeping this? At the very least, it should be labeled to clearly indicate what it is. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:31, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Can we settle once and for all the question of how Allende Died?
Per your request I am here providing excellent sources to do just this...


 * There is no doubt that he died because of the military coup. I don't think it is necessary to discuss this. We should discuss about Allende's political and social effects on the nation and on the world. With respect, the son of the death heroes of the Battle of Kosovo, Deliogul 21:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Many people have the impression that his last speach ended with "estos son mis ultimas palabras" (these are my last words) this is a LIE, in truth his speach did not end here. His speach was later modified to support the idea that he commited suicide. The REAL last part to hisd speach is,(english translation)"I have the certainty that the sacrifice will not be in vain. I have the certainty that, atleast, there will be a moral sense that will punish the felony, the cowardness, nad the traitory."

These are his real last words, true supporters of Allende recorded this last part when during september 11, 1973. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gzuniga (talk • contribs) 22:56, 21 December 2006

All authoritative sources say Salvador Allende's death was by suicide
There is no doubt whatsoever Salvador Allende was not killed by the forces of Augusto Pinochet, but by his own hand on a trigger of a gun on 9/11/73 as Gen. Pinochet launched a military coup, because:


 * Allende announced his imminent suicide to the Chilean people in a final farewell radio broadcast "these are my last words" etc. (and you can hear him say it himself, see audio clip links and/or translations below), (this is a LIE, the his last speech did not end here, It was later altered to exlude his words after this.) Allende was probably offered a passage, but probably to be tortured. Nixon vowed to crush Allende and to make him a coward, so they lied about him committing suicide.


 * Pinochet's military coup radio communications of 9/11/73, which were intercepted, recorded and preserved by the media (see links below), reveal intentions of granting Allende safe passage, and later as the coup progressed, of communicating internally that Allende was rejecting those offers, and finally of his death (they do also reveal a possible plot by Pinochet to bring Allende's plane down if he had accepted safe passage, but with Allende's death in La Moneda palace, that opportunity never presented itself),


 * Several witnesses personally and politically loyal to Allende and present with him at the time of his death including two physicians (see below) have in the years subsequent to Allende's death testified to his manner of death by suicide. (this is another lie, See the got the people who examined Allende ended up dead, see Pinochet told them to lie in exchange to not being killed.)


 * His family always outspoken, has never disputed Allende's death as a suicide,


 * But perhaps next to live audio tapes, the most authoritative source of the truth of this matter is the official Chilean Government historical websitewhich confirms Allende's death was a suicide:

"'Ante el violento quiebre de la institucionalidad democrática, el Presidente Allende se suicida en el Salón Independencia del Palacio de Gobierno. Ese día la democracia chilena quedó suspendida, instalándose la dictadura."

"TRANSLATION: 'In view of the violent break with institutional democracy, President Allende committed suicide in the Hall of Independence of the Palace of Government. On that day Chilean democracy was suspended, with the installation of the dictatorship.'"

While many automatically discount that source assuming Pinochet somehow still controls it's content, the fact is that Pinochet and his people have been out of power for 16 years, and were succeeded by 3 mostly Pinochet-unfriendly administrations including the current one of the same political party as Allende.

Ricardo Lagos, Socialist, the current President of Chile (whose staff personnel would control the official Government website), was an ally of Allende and bitter enemy of Pinochet. Indeed Lagos spent many years in exile in the U.S.

Therefore, certainly key historical representations under the Chilean government's control would certainly be expected to be sanitized of all Pinochet-era inaccuracy.

Comments / summary. The evidence shows:

 * In conducting the military coup, Pinochet publicly offered Allende safe passage if he surrendered, and was conducting negotiations with Allende through subordinates for that.


 * Allende was committed to his cause, felt betrayed, saw no way out, and rejected a deal. He saw his death as a way to undermine the "traitors" (see below).


 * He then made a last "farewell" speech to Chileans on live radio. He said to Chileans, "these are my last words" (implying it was his decision to die, since he and his family had been offered safe passage out of Chile).


 * In his speech, Allende refused the offer of safe passage and vowed to fight to the end, even "at the cost of my own life."


 * In his speech, Allende specifically said his death would further his cause and "history" and help expose "those with strength but no righteousness."


 * However, unknown to Allende, Pinochet apparently confided to fellow General Carvajal [on audio tape, see below for link] that he intended to have Allende's plane downed later if Allende accepted the safe passage.


 * As Pinochet's forces were about to enter La Moneda, Allende appears to have killed himself. Two doctors (see below) and political advisors with him later testified about this.

The main sources here are first-hand recordings of the principals themselves on the very day in question (live audio recordings of Pinochet and Allende) on September 11, 1973.

It is very interesting that Pinochet is on tape saying he would down Allende's plane, a topic that has received little if any coverage (as far as I know), and hopefully somebody else can research and write an article about it.

La Tercera, Chile's second largest newspaper
See La Tercera's audio archives of 9/11/73, for an extensive list of 9/11/73 multimedia files. These include actual military radio communications to/from Pinochet:
 * http://docs.tercera.cl/especiales/2003/11-septiembre/multimedia.htm

Pinochet tells subordinates to attack at 11 because Allende will not surrender
"Audio Pinochet: 'A las 11 en punto hay que atacar La Moneda, porque este gallo no se va a entregar'."

"Translation: 'At 11 AM sharp La Moneda has to be attacked, because this man is not going to turn himself in.'"

As coup unfolds Pinochet warns subordinates Allende is a liar and so to beware of trickery
"Audio Pinochet: 'Ten cuidado con el señor Presidente, que es muy re chueco, no dice nunca la verdad, así que hay que tener mucho cuidado con él'."

"Translation: Audio, Pinochet: 'Be careful with the Mr. President who is very crooked and never tells the truth, so you have to be very careful with him.'"

Pinochet frankly discusses Allende's fate with field commanders - rejects a trial
"audio Pinochet: 'Si los juzgamos les damos tiempo (...) se pueden levantar hasta las pobladas pa' salvarlos (...) la opinión mía es que estos caballeros se toman y se mandan a dejar a cualquier parte. Por último, en el camino los van tirando abajo'."

"Translation: Pinochet: “If we put them on trial we give them time… Even the outskirts may rebel to ['pa' is slang for 'para:] save them… my opinion is these gentlemen are taken and sent to any place [unprecise slang sentence].  As a last resort, on the journey you go throwing them down.”"

Gen Carvajal radio's Pinochet to say Allende has machine gun and threatens suicide, Pinochet scoffs
"Audio Carvajal comunica a Pinochet que Allende sigue en La Moneda, que porta un fusil ametralladora y que habría dicho que el último tiro se lo dispararía en la cabeza. Pinochet responde: 'Esas son novelas no más, ese huevón no se dispara ni una pastilla de goma...'."

"Translation: Carvajal [a field general] communicates to Pinochet that Allende remains in The Moneda [the Presidential Palace] carries a machine gun and has said the last shot he would fire would be into his head. Pinochet responds: “Those are just fables, that [literally: big balls, but connotating 'stupid'] couldn’t even fire a rubber bullet into himself…”"

Pinochet gets impatient, demands unconditional surrender from Allende
"Audio Pinochet: 'Rendición incondicional, ¡nada de parlamentar!' 'Se mantiene el ofrecimiento de sacarlo del país, pero el avión se cae, viejo, cuando vaya volando'."

"Translation: Pinochet: “Unconditional surrender, and no negotiation!” “The offer of taking him out of the country remains open, but the plane falls, old man, when it’s flying.”"

The Last Words of Allende
Las últimas palabras de Allende (the last words of Allende)

"audio Primera intervención de Allende por radio: confirma el alzamiento militar."

"Translation: First radio broadcast by Allende that confirms military coup has begun."

"Audio Respuesta de Allende a exigencia de dimisión: 'No renunciaré'"

"Translation: Response by Allende to insistence to step aside: 'I won't resign'"

"Audio El último discurso de Salvador Allende: '...pagare con mi vida la lealtad del pueblo (...) más temprano que tarde se abrirán las grandes alamedas por donde pase el hombre libre para construir una sociedad mejor.'"

"Translation: The final messagre from Salvador Allende: '...I will pay with my life for the loyalty of the people (...) sooner rather than later, will large avenues open through which may men of freedom pass to build a better society.'"

Gen Carvajal tells Pinochet Allende is dead:
"Audio Carvajal comunica a Pinochet y a Leigh que 'Allende se suicido, esta muerto'. Pinochet ordena que 'lo echen en un cajón y lo embarquen en un avión, viejo, junto con la familia, que el entierro lo hagan en otra parte, en Cuba. Si no vamos a tener una pelota pa'l entierro. Si este gallo hasta pa' morir tuvo problemas'."

"translation of above text: 'Carvajal [a field general and referred to as viejo, or 'old man' by Pinochet] communicates to Pinochet and Leigh [Air Force Commandant] that 'Allende committed suicide, he's dead.' Pinochet orders 'throw him in a box and ship him on a plane, old man, together with his family, so that he gets buried somewhere else, in Cuba. If not we're going to have a circus for the funeral.  Why this man even in dying had problems.'"

La Tercera print article archive from 9/11/73
"Article Headline: Allende responde a exigencia de renuncia: 'No lo haré'"

"Translation: “Allende responds to the insistence he resign: “I won’t do it.”"

"El Presidente condenó la 'actitud increíble de soldados que faltan a su palabra y a su compromiso'."

"Translation: “The President condemns the “incredible attitude of soldiers who fail to honor their oath and commitment.”"

El Primer Mandatario se dirigió al país nuevamente a través de la radio para rechazar la proclama de los militares golpistas que exigen su renuncia. Salvador Allende manifestó su voluntad "de resistir con lo que sea, a costa de mi vida, para que quede la lección que coloque ante la ignominia y la historia a los que tienen la fuerza y no la razón".

"Translation: “The President addressed the nation again to reject the proclamation of the military coup leaders that insist on his resignation. Salvador Allende manifested his will to “resist with whatever I can, at the cost of my life, to leave behind the lesson that puts before infamy and history those that have strength but not righteousness. [reference to Chile's national motto: in terms with reason, or otherwise in terms with strength]”"

Another Source: Absolute Astronomy Encyclopedia
According to Absolute Astronomy Encyclopedia two physicians in La Moneda were witnesses to Allende's suicide:


 * Dr. Patricio Guijón (who made a statement at the time).
 * Dr. José Quiroga (who confirmed it many years later).

"'…During this coup, Allende died. After being debated by several years, the official version, that he committed suicide with a machine gun (generally presumed to be the machine gun given to him by Fidel Castro), and an autopsy labelled his death as suicide, has been widely accepted, even by members of his own party and family. This general acceptance is based on statements given by two doctors from the La Moneda Palace infirmary: Patricio Guijón, who made a statement at the time, and José Quiroga who confirmed it many years later. (Some sources misattribute these statements to 'Allende's personal doctor'; that would be Enrique Paris Roa, who does not appear to have made such a statement.) However some still insist he was murdered by Pinochet's military forces while defending the palace.'"

nfgii | Talk 03:32, 25 October 2005 (UTC)