Talk:Salvia lyrata

Discussion
I would concur with the identification as Salvia lyrata. Some species of Salvia are considered to be reasonable forage for livestock. However, there are a few species that are known nitrate accumulators, namely S. cocinea and S. reflexa. I find no reference to S. lyrata as being toxic. Most probably because it is not well grazed, due mainly to its aromatic nature. However, I too found anecdotal references that it can be a diaphoretic and laxative, but I cannot confirm or deny that. I have copied Dr. Reagor on this for him to add or take away from what I have said. hope this helps. Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center identified the plant for me as being Salvia lyrata or Lyre-Leafed Sage. Being an herbalist and a maintainer of a very small prairie, I do realize that some plants actually will help livestock stay healthier. However, I am careful to eradicate all harmful species when I find them (such as the Nuttall Deathcamas around a tree in our open woods which is on some of our property). Thank you in advance for your reply. Wild onions grow freely in fields and will cause colic and death Oleander a major shrub used in landscaping is deadly This particular Salvia is not listed on Texas A&M's poisonous database. However -- another Salvia is. http://texnat.tamu.edu/cmplants/toxic/plants/lanceleaf.html Maybe the Lyre-leafed Sage should be added to that. I will forward it to one of the doctors there as long as it has indeed been confirmed as the culprit. The plant in the images is Salvia lyrata, Lyre-leaf Sage. It is common across the Southeast and grows as far west as Central Texas and as far north as Illinois and Connecticut. The open woodlands that you mentioned in your email are its natural habitat. However, we can find no indication that it is toxic to horses or any other animal. Of course, any horse-owner would want to verify that with their equine vet. The leaves are slightly hairy, green lobed and have beautiful purpled veins. http://texnat.tamu.edu/cmplants/toxic/plants/lanceleaf.html concerning Salvia Reflcxa (Lanceleaf Salvia, Rocky Mountain Sage) Salvia poisoning is not common, and only general clinical signs are reported: Muscular weakness, Diarrhea, Colic Animals that die after consuming, contaminated hay show post-mortem evidence of gastrointestinal inflammation and liver necrosis. Integrated management strategies There are no documented reports of this plant causing poisoning under range or pasture conditions, although it has been susected. Nevertheless, it has been proven toxic when consumed as a contaminant in hay and should therefore be considered potentially toxic to grazing animals. Look for this plant in hay as well as in hay fields before mowing. http://www.cvm.tamu.edu The toxic agent is unknown. Reported cases of poisonings in the United States are limited to cattle and horses that consumed contaminated hay. Experimental feeding trials have shown that sheep are also susceptible. Although the plant has been proven toxic, it is not known how much of the plant material must be eaten to cause toxicity. In one confirmed case, alfalfa hay contained about 10 percent lanceleaf salvia. Dr Chas R Hart, Texas A&M University, list of toxic plants http://texnat.tamu.edu/cmplants/toxic/plants/lanceleaf.html Nuttall deathcamas is a perennial herb arising from a bulb with a black, papery outer coating. Its unbranched, erect, leafy stalk grows to 15 to 30 inches tall. The mostly basal, curved leaves may be up to 15 inches long on larger specimens. The stalk terminates in a yellowish-white spike of flowers that give rise to egglike seed capsules. Deathcamas contains alkaloids toxic to all livestock species, but it causes very few poisonings because it is unpalatable. Animals consuming as little as 0.25 percent of their body weight of green plants may display signs of poisoning in a few hours. Sheep have been known to eat the young plants in early spring when other forage is scarce. However, most of the deathcamas in Texas grows where there are few sheep. Humans have been poisoned after mistaking the bulbs for onions. Nuttall Deathcamas, Deathcamas (Zigadenus nuttallii) A broad spectrum herbicide is effective in reducing Salvia Lyrata contamination in pastures growing fodder, and forage products like alfalfa, and hay. A mixture of 40:1 dimethylamine salt of 2,4 dichlorophenoxyacetic acid 33% distributed with an anti-drift spray solution of water at a rate of 41 gallons per acres can be effective against Salvia contamination during late winter, or early spring when wildflower blooming stages first appear. StationNT5Bmedia (talk) 22:43, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

If the person that wrote this article and the above discussion would provide some information on why they think it may be toxic, I'd sure appreciate it, and if not, I feel we need to remove the suggestion that it may be toxic. To report on other salvias and death camas is not helpful, it has only made me spend a lot of time searching the net and coming up with nothing. Thanks. Gandydancer (talk) 15:40, 5 March 2009 (UTC) Texas A&M Dept. of Agriculture has identified Salvia Lyrata as a nitrogen accumulator that is deadly to livestock. Becuase it's stem is tall and slender, it shoots up through snow covered fields in late winter, and with the coincidence of dormant forages, livestock find it, hence the name "Frost Weed". Early settlers to the wild west may have experimented with the flowering weed as a possible laxative taken as a tea, but I wouldn't recomment trying this, due to it's toxic nature. I found this out after my favorite registered quarter horse died, and had lost a head of cattle during late winter, early spring. If you have any doubts, send samples to Texas A&M Agricultural Dept. with the requested fee, and they will return results of their analysis. The Ladybird Johnson Wildflower museum may object, but I'm not staking my life on it, or endangering my animals anymore. I use a Pasture Pro herbicide to get rid of it. Posted photos are from my fields in prior years late winter, early spring. Note the size of this weed. StationNT5Bmedia (talk) 18:05, 5 March 2009 (UTC) Several local ranchers were interviewed about suspected livestock deaths occuring along the Texas Gulf Coast areas and inland where snow rarely falls. The annual blooming of Salvia Lyrata requires cool, wet conditions like found in the late winter, and early spring seasons. During hot, drought conditions, the weed is dormant, withers up & dies. Dried stalks remain upright until knocked down. StationNT5Bmedia (talk) 18:40, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I had planned to add purple volcano sage to my herb garden this year, but after reading this wiki article, I'm not sure... I read about it at Dave's Garden and the USDA and Lady Bird sites listed here, and I find no mention of it being toxic.  If it is toxic I don't want it in my garden and I don't want it seeding itself in my fields since I have both goats and chickens.  So is it or isn't it?
 * Confirmed Toxic to Livestock, Not recommended for Human Consumption
 * Article editions on toxicity added


 * It would be great if you could add a reference for the livestock deaths. I couldn't find anything online that even hinted that Salvia lyrata is toxic. I'm not questioning the statement at this point, just saying that it needs a reference from a reliable source in order to remain in the article. First Light (talk) 23:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * None of the references you've provided even mention Salvia lyrata as a toxic plant. I think that you might be confusing it with "Lanceleaf sage", which is different from "Lyreleaf sage". I've removed the entire section. Please don't add it back unless you have a specific reference about Salvia lyrata. Also, references must support the content that you add. I noticed that much of the information you wrote wasn't remotely suggested in the referenced material. First Light (talk) 18:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism of Salvia Lyrata won't be tolerated
You obviously are out to undermine the Texas Gulf Coast agricultural communities discovery of toxic plants & dangers to livestock. I am re-publishing the known facts about the genus Salvia, and removing the unreferenced material about garden flowering. Don't vandalize. StationNT5Bmedia (talk) 03:21, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * None of your references even mention Salvia lyrata in them. Not even once. I tried to help you, and couldn't find a single online reference to Salvia lyrata being toxic to animals. Please, find a Wikipedia Reliable Source (WP:RS) and then add information to the article based on that source. I've moved this thread to the article talk page so other users can comment, since it's an issue about content. First Light (talk) 03:31, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You must observe the 3 edit rule. You have erased referenced material valid to the encyclopedic content of the article, and left flowery gardening topics without any sources. I have restored the referenced valid content.  Wikipedia administration will follow up.  StationNT5Bmedia (talk) 04:02, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Please show in your references where exactly they mention Salvia lyrata, and I will stop removing this material. At this point, you are falsely using references. First Light (talk) 04:13, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You obviously have a much different experience with Salvia Lyrate than the experts & about it's use, I would like to see your sources. StationNT5Bmedia (talk) 04:17, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The onus is on you, if you want to keep the material in the article stating that the plant is toxic, to show that your sources state that "Salvia lyrata" is a toxic plant. Please do that or the content will be removed. First Light (talk) 04:37, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I must concur with First Light, here. It appears as if StationNT5Bmedia is inferring information and stretching it to fit the claim that it's toxic. If someone has not yet published something on this species indicating its toxicity, we can't use it. Wikipedia is not a publisher of original ideas. It must be published, we can't use personal observations or personal interviews with experts in the field. Any further reinstatements of the unreferenced claim will be considered a blockable action. I, too, would like to know exactly where in what reference it says that this plant is toxic. Show me a quote and point to a source so I can verify it. --Rkitko (talk) 12:04, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Abuse of references
StationNT5Bmedia, none of your four references even mention Salvia lyrata in the context of toxicity. The first reference is to a Texas Toxic Plants Database article on "Salvia reflexa", in which Salvia lyrata is not even mentioned. Please note that "Salvia reflexa" is a different plant than "Salvia lyrata". That database also has no separate article on Salvia lyrata. Your second reference is to the USDA profile on Salvia lyrata which does not mention anything about toxicity. Your third reference is to a Missouri plants description of Salvia lyrata which does not mention anything about toxicity. Your fourth reference is to a Texas A&M article about colic in horses that doesn't mention any salvia at all, or even any plants.

Note that Verifiability states (emphasis is mine): "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. The source cited must clearly support the information as it is presented in the article." Additionally it states: "When there is dispute about whether the article text is fully supported by the given source, direct quotes from the source and any other details requested should be provided as a courtesy to substantiate the reference." I've removed the section, and will ask for help from an admin if you continue to abuse Wikipedia policies by falsifying references. Verifiability is an official Wikipedia policy, which you are willfully and repeatedly violating. First Light (talk) 19:15, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Inclusion of Deleted Segments here for browsing & warning

So this article will not mislead gardeners into endangering animals, I am including the parts of the toxicity segments your edits have deleted, as if you wanted to mislead people about the safety of wildflowers.

Salvia lyrata (Lyre-leafed Sage), is a species of sage native to the eastern United States, from Connecticut west to Kansas, and south to Florida and Texas.

It is a herbaceous perennial plant with low growing leaves and flowering stems growing to 50 cm tall. The leaves are arranged in a basal rosette of large leaves, and smaller leaves in opposite pairs on the erect flowering stem. The basal leaves are up to 15 cm long and 5 cm broad, with several lobes, some approximating to the shape of a lyre, from which the species is named. The flowers are pale blue, up to 25 mm long. The species is often a lawn weed that self seeds into lawns and is tolerant of being mowed.

Cultivation and uses
It is sometimes grown in gardens for its attractive foliage and flowers. Several cultivars have been developed with purple leaves. Two readily available seed raised cultivars include:
 * 'Purple Prince' - Grows about 35 cm tall with reddish purple colored veins and dark purple spikes with small lilac colored flowers in dark purple calyces.
 * 'Purple Volcano' - Grows about 35 cm tall with dark purple leaves that have a shiny sheen to them. The flowers are light blue in color.

Suspected hazards to livestock
A few species of Salvia are known nitrate accumulators, namely S. cocinea and S. reflexa, both listed as toxic plants. The phenome is generally characteristic of other toxic indigenous plants of North America, including Nuttall Deathcamas ( Zigadenus nuttallii), but is also considered to be a species of wildflower. Salvia Lyrata is easily recognized by it’s lyre shaped leaf lobes with purple veins, rectangular shaped branching stalk with fine short hairy bristles, and trumpet shaped purple flower clusters. The leaves are slightly hairy, green lobed, and have beautiful purpled veins. Debate involves edibility. A reference to antidotes include laxatives categorized previously under perennial herbs. But, the family of Salvia wildflower poisoning also is not common, and only general clinical signs are reported: muscular weakness,diarrhea,& colic. Animals that die after consuming contaminated hay show post-mortem evidence of gastrointestinal inflammation and liver necrosis. Lethal level of contamination has not been determined. A broad spectrum herbicide is effective in reducing Salvia Lyrata contamination in pastures growing fodder, and forage products like alfalfa, and hay. A mixture of 40:1 dimethylamine salt of 2,4 dichlorophenoxyacetic acid liquid distributed with an anti-drift spray solution of water mist at a rate of 41 gallons per acres can be effective against Salvia contamination during late winter, or early spring when wildflower blooming stages first appear. Precaution should be taken to protect people and livestock.

I encourage others local to the Texas Gulf Coast to study this weed
Salvia Lyrata is an annual early sprouting broadleaf wildflower that is characterized by it's similarity to purple sage. Otherwise it is known to be hazardous to livestock. StationNT5Bmedia (talk) 03:46, 13 March 2009 (UTC)