Talk:Samba

Portuguese terminology and grammar
Obviously it is impossible to avoid Portuguese terminology in this article. But is there some way to minimize assuming Portuguese declension and other syntactical elements, for instance, using a different grammatical form of a word that was defined?

Some of the meaning is obscured by lapses in grammar, as well. I'm finding it difficult to point to specific instances, but it should be relatively easy for someone who understands the original intent really well to fix up the mechanics of the article. At that point additional weaknesses may be revealed more clearly. Arch5280 (talk) 19:15, 13 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I noticed that in the popular dances paragraph in the Etymology section some of the dances are spelled probably as they are written in the reference book (a book from 1889), and they're different (and seem strange...) from the current spelling, for example "Catêrêtê" which doesn't have the 3 circumflex accents, just the last one (no word in Portuguese has more than one accent AFAIK). Other examples are oxytone words ending in U, these don't have the accute accent ("Maracatú" and "Lundú"). The links for the dances that already have articles have the correct spelling, though. Should this old spelling be kept or should it be changed to the current spelling? Marcusbacus (talk) 23:09, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Rainbow forest?
"where it was born and developed between the end of the 19th century and the first revolution of the Rainbow Forest". I am Brazilian and I never heard of any "Rainbow forest" nor its "revolution". It must be vandalism from someone or a misinformation. --&#39;&#39;&#39;Mr. Nighttime&#39;&#39;&#39; (talk) 11:02, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Origin in Benin?
I have come over a filmed testimony from the 1920s in which a tribe living in Benin and called Somba is dancing in a Samba-style fashion. Maybe worth rethinking the issue of origin of the dance in light of the fact that Benin has been a crucial crossroad for slave trade? The filming is part of the "The Archives of the Planet" that have been initiated by the philantrophist Albert Khan.(Tadju (talk) 21:24, 7 March 2009 (UTC))

Cuica
We have an article about the cuica and it is one of the most recognizable signatures of the Samba, isn't it? It isn't mentioned at all in this article though. I don't have the expertise to know where it should go though.

Portuguese origin
Actually, I do think that samba has elements of Portuguese in it. These principally lie in the melodic material of the songs. Shall we put that back in? Mona-Lynn 07:08, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

We can see it by listeing to the old Portuguese folklore. Here, it's used a small gitar called cavaquinho, who was taken to Brazil and started to be used in samba. By the way, it was also taken to Hawaii by a Madeiran immigrant. There, it was baptized as Ukulele. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.152.129.97 (talk) 13:41, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Old version of this article
I found the following text in the Samba (music) talk page which I guess should be evaluated and integrated into the main article, or whatever is deemed appropriate), then deleted from here. Samba (dance) should also be integrated into this article, in my view. Mona-Lynn 07:08, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)samba is sxc

blah blah Please don't. The articles are about different things.Mikkalai 17:13, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Brazilians in general do not make a distinction between samba as a dance and as a style of music. The articles should be merged. Noruga 13:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course we do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.25.149.228 (talk) 18:15, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Samba is the most famous among the various forms of music that resulted from the amalgam of African and Portuguese music that took place in Brazil.

The name Samba comes from the ANGOLAN "SEMBA " - religious  rythms


 * 8/8    //:   3     +  3       + 2  : //


 * Bassdrums( surdo ) Marcao  risposta   cortador


 * which are mixed with a "MALINGA "rythm ( angola / mozambique) on the  pandeiro( = austral  african  tambourin /or -->small malinga  frame -drum )


 * 16/16  // : 3 + 1 + (3) + (1 )+ 3 +1 + (3 )+(1 ) ://

Samba developed as a distinctive kind of music at the turn of the XX century, mainly in the state of Bahia. especially in Santander Some forms of the original african  semba "roots "music are still played on the ATABAQUES (three conga like  hand drums) and developped into the SAMBA PAGODE


 * the playing on one  atabaque ( = you can also use a djembe )  is
 * <    <             Bell
 * 16/16   R B b L  R B b L


 * ( R= right( strong )hand rim or tone   L = Left hand rim or tone
 * B= open strong bass        b = weak bass

it is still the music of  the  " BLOCOS " in the santander carnival

The migration of black population from Bahia to the capital Rio de Janeiro brought the samba to the metropolis and evolved there  into the samba carioca

The first recordings of samba (Pelo Telefone, by Donga, in 1917) carried the new music outside the black ghettos, known as favelas, but the real popularity of the samba only started with the compositions of one genial white musician, Noel Rosa. His abilities as a lyricist and satirist made the samba acceptable to the white middle class, while maintaining the essential characteristics of the music: its rhythm, its unique instrumentation and structure.


 * It's not Santander, Salvador is the Bahia's capital. And the earlier pagode (countryside pagode) is quite different from Bahia's actual music (carnival groups, afoxés or trios). The popularity of samba is highly due to Vargas dictatorship and his propaganda bureau, who used radio stations to broadcast the rythm and the songs as a symbol of brazilian identity, aiming to unify the cultural differences among brazilian provinces. And, of course, Noel Rosa was a genius.
 * Salvador isn't "the Bahia's" capital,it's Bahia's capital.Even if the word "bahia" means "bay" in portuguese, the state's name is still a "substantivo próprio" - personal noun.I don't know how to explain that very well, as I am not very familiar to English grammar.


 * I don't know who left this comment, as it is unsigned, and its English is very confused, but this is extremely valuable information. The article as it stands has no information at all about what samba IS -- what is the beat, what does it sound like, who started it? The thing about the belly-button -- who cares? This article is about SAMBA. What is it? This is a terrible article. Someone with better English should try to incorporate this talk comment above, as it is KEY. 76.22.20.146 (talk) 06:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * This is the correct information regarding Samba origins, as it did not originate in Rio, but in the outlying regions of Salvador. Will correct the information, and add sources of ethnomusicologists to back up this very true claim RodolfoVisconde (talk) 19:00, 31 January 2023 (UTC)


 * See also Samba software, a free, open implementation of Microsoft's networking protocols.

"In the sixties..." paragraph of Samba history a bit misleading
That paragraph in question seem to imply that artists such as Cartola, Nelson Cavaquinho, Velha Guarda da Portela, Zé Keti, and Clementina de Jesus are part of the "leftist musicians of bossa nova". I beg to differ. Artists mentioned above are the sambistas 100% and should be differentiated from bossa nova.

Moreover, even though those artists mentioned above may have recorded their first albums in the sixties, they were "discovered" much much earlier. I believe Cartola was one of the founding fathers of Mangueria back in the 1920s or early 1930s. Nelson Cavaquinho was supposedly Cartola's drinking pal and they wrote many samba classics that got popular before the sixties.

The article also makes no mention of Paulinho da Viola, a master craftsman of samba songs that was very active from early 70s to the 80s. His contribution to samba is significant and his rise as a sambista came after Zé Keti's generation but before the younger Beth Carvalho and Zeca's. [was ic -> now Cuica-dude]
 * I encourage you to edit away! This article needs more work and it sounds like you're the person to tackle it. Looking forward to the results. Mona-Lynn 05:14, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Samba dance stuff
I have removed new material that is off-topic - about the dance - and suggest that the anonymous person who added it integrate it instead into Samba (dance) or into Brazilian Carnival. Here it is:

''Since Samba is so popoular in Brazil, it comes as no surprise that Samba is a big attraction on the annual Carnival that is held 2 weeks before the traditional Christian fasting of Lent. Rio de Janeiro is host to this amazing celebration of music, good food, color and of course the Samba dance. Every year thousands come to Rio to attend the Carnival from all over Brazil and also from other parts of the world. The Carnival comes with a lot of The celebration of Carnival ends on "Mardi Gras". Samba dancers in the Carnival are dressed in attractive and exotic clothes that are bright in color. They are also scantily clothed, particularly the women. There is a lot of belly dancing in Samba. Incidentally, both the Samba and the Tango, the 2 major South American dances are hugely popular across the world. But Samba and the Tango are completely different, as different as Fire and Ice can be. While hundreds come to the streets dansing Samba, Tango is more personal that is participated by a couple.Samba Dance and The Carnival''

Confusing
This article, to a lay person (ie, me) is very confusing—I don't recognize many of the instruments, and I don't understand many of the subdivisions. What I think would be most helpful would be some sort of example of Samba linked to this page. Perhaps someone could find something on Creative Commons? The Jade Knight 05:42, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Cameroonian Connection?
In Kom in Cameroon there is a traditional dance called Samba. It is musically different from Bazilian Samba, but there are some parallels, especially the use of a friction drum, which, as far as I know, is also called "Samba" in the Kom language. I don't know if the word is related to the Angolan word semba. The ethymology of the term in Bantu languages should be investigated. (cf. Talk:Friction drum). I also don't know if there is any historical link to the brazilian Samba. Does anybody know a reference on this? Does anybody have information about the ethymology of the terms "semba" or "samba" in Bantu languages? Nannus 20:58, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Samba (India)
I removed the User:Ganeshbot/sandbox/Samba notice. The two have absolutely no relationship. Macgreco 02:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Mainstream
WTF mainstream in Japan? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.78.91.31 (talk) 14:01, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Carmen Miranda
Carmen Miranda was born in Portugal, she was never Brazilian, even though she lived many years in Brazil.

Expert help required
Some of the article has been poorly translated, and needs the attention of an expert on the dance form, or someone who has access to the sources. Thanks. -- Diannaa (Talk) 23:48, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

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Rewrite History Section
I think the current History section ought to be completely gutted. As it is now it is primarily the product of one edit made in July 2009 by User:Rbrandao, and it is rife with some really atrocious errors which put this User's expertise into question. The following passage, for example, is totally wrong: "Also in the 1940s, there arose a new crop of artists: Francisco Alves, Mário Reis, Orlando Silva, Silvio Caldas, Aracy de Almeida, Dalva de Oliveira, and Elizeth Cardoso, among others." Not only were most of these artists active Sambistas in the 1930s, but one of them, Francisco Alves, was probably Brazil's biggest male singing star of the first half of the 20th century - and he began recording in the 1920s. This is a basic fact of Brazilian music of the era. Another remark that samba was influenced by "foreign music" such as foxtrots in the 1940s and boleros in the 1950s is also wrong; both of those kinds of music have been played in Brazil about as long as they've been played elsewhere. The introduction of the article also mentions that samba became "influenced by American orchestra music" after WWII, by being played with American-style orchestras, which is also easily proven false (much of Carmen Miranda's 1930s oeuvre was backed by orchestras).theBOBbobato (talk) 14:18, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


 * ​User:Bob bobato​, have you read "História Social da Música Popular Brasileira", by José Ramos Tinhorao? ​I think there y​ou can ​read ​references about ​external ​influence ​in the "mainstream samba" ​ in the 1930/1950's. It's only one (probably the most famous) among others books and essays which comments about this. The samba-canção ​ (also well-known as samba de meio do ano​) appeared in the late 1920s​ and became ​much more popular ​in late 1940's with a big influence of bolero (even bolero had been spread many years before).​ ​ ​I haven't found the frame "samba became "influenced by American orchestra music" after WWII", only since. ​ ​Okay, it's poor written, but I think it was a lack of the word "more" ("samba has become more influenced", I believe, because this American influence got stronger Good Neighbor Policy) - of course, the "mainstream samba" had orchestras since the 1930's (even sambas de carnaval and marchinhas had, this became to change mainly in the 1960's). Course Tinhorao can be questioned (and it has been for other authors, included concerning the importance of this foreign influence [e.g. http://www.ceart.udesc.br/dapesquisa/edicoes_anteriores/8/files/03MUSICA_Marcus_Facchin_Bonilla2212.pdf]), but if you have to rewrite the article, you need to read the original stuff in Portuguese. I agree the history section must be rewritten​. I realized this current English version is based in an old version of a Portuguese article, in mid-2009. The current Portuguese version (also written by User:Rbrandao) is much better than 2009 Portuguese version, so I think it is not a question of  put this User's expertise into question, this user made many improvements in the Portuguese article since then, especially at the early years of samba and breaking down into a more logical chronological order ​which takes the "moderno e urbano samba carioca" as the main point.​ Concerning the 2009 version, it seems ​it was made ​to be generic​, using​ basic Portuguese references (e.g. websites which try to summarize a genre so complex as samba, but it is not a primary source). Unfortunately, you can't find better things on the internet (maybe some rare articles and works in pdf), but the main thing is on libraries and in Portuguese. ​ Or to adopt ​part of the current version in Portuguese. Or to reduce and keep online English sources.ChicoBuarque (talk) 11:38, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

I've added some cultural points that are important historically (together with citation). It overlaps two of the (existing) historical periods but I felt it was better to keep the political and cultural relevance in one paragraph. I agree that the section should be re-written and perhaps a future editing could vastly improve the section completely. Parzivalamfortas (talk) 05:42, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Football influence
The article briefly mentions how Samba is associated with football, but I think that we should expand on this topic, and provide a bit more information on how Samba style shaped Brazilian football style after its introduction/formation in the country. This article highlights some of this -- in case you wanted sources to back up what I am trying to say. Adamh4 (talk) 21:39, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I think this is an interesting idea, and there is maybe an instinctive connection. But I would like to see something a bit more substantial than an unsupported blog. I found this http://www.jbiomech.com/article/S0021-9290%2806%2985292-9/abstract but some proper research may involve costs unless someone has time and access to relevant journals, publications and so on that can be cited as more than just ideas. Parzivalamfortas (talk) 20:32, 25 April 2014 (UTC) Bouncing it off a Brasilian contingent that is more knowledgeable about football than I am, the suggestion arose that samba is more an association with football than an influence. For instance, samba before a match is often an opportunity for shared joy between the players. We know that many samba schools are associated socially with certain football clubs. One top player who is skilled in capoiera has suggested that that dance (capoiera) has affected his personal football playing. But it would seem fanciful to think that all football players are also such keen samba dancers that their agility or timing from samba has impacted on their game. The loose association between football clubs and samba schools is quite well known though (fans of one tend to be fans of the other) and common associations could be listed, perhaps in a page on Brasilian fotball. But I personally feel we would need more hard evidence to suggest that it has shaped the game. Parzivalamfortas (talk) 03:22, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Etymology
I've added some points to the etymology section, mostly to try to clarify what perhaps seemed a rather lopsided and poorly supported explanation of the word 'semba.'

Yet the connection with the word semba strictly speaking seems more semiological than purely etymological. For instance, Barbara Browning ("Samba: Resistance in Motion") says it is a language in response to cultural repression, linking the African roots of slavery to the name of the very first carnaval samba school, called Deixa Falar ("Let Me Speak"), and she quotes the study by Muniz Sodre ("Samba, o dono do corpo").

Although I haven't read the whole of Sodre's study, the sentence, "O 'encontrao,' dado geralmente com o umbigo (semba, em dialeto angolano) mas tambem com a perna, servira para caracterizar esse rito de danca e batuque, e mais tarde dar-lhe um nome generico: samba" offers a fairly convincing theory of the arrival of the word samba (Rough translation: "The 'bump' usually given to the navel (Semba from Angola dialect) but also with the leg, served to characterize this rite of dance and drumming, and later give it a generic name: samba.") This is important, among other reasons, to counter the slightly simplistic argument, often put forward, that samba is 'derived' from semba when in fact they are two distinct dances (but with some commonalities of expression and cultural circumstances), and additionally support the reality that samba is in fact a group of dances.

If anyone wants to re-write the etymology section to incorporate these points, please do so!

Parzivalamfortas (talk) 06:45, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Etymology revisited
Just wondering, doesn't the word 'samba' simply mean "female sambo", or "woman of combined African and indigenous ancestry"? If anything, the samba was originally the music of these people. Steinbach (talk) 10:44, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Rhythm - reference (6) to Blatter's book
The rhythm reference to Blatter(6) has a 2/4 time signature, but shows two bars of different lengths, the first with only one beat (two quavers or eighth notes), the second with two beats (four quavers). This is at least confusing, and as musical notation, it is incorrect. Was the reference mis-quoted, or is the source simply wrong. I have not got a copy of Blatter's book so cannot check.92.21.227.81 (talk) 17:13, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Audio Files Do Not Play
None of the audio files will play, rendering the entire article useless. Either provide a universal format, or make the stubs downloadable, or provide a source link, or remove them as clutter.99.2.69.172 (talk) 17:36, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Samba dance
All text related to dance must be moved from here into its own article: Samba (Brazilian dance), otherwise this creates great confusion. - üser:Altenmann >t 03:15, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

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Boy is this different from the article in Portuguese!
pt:Samba I don't think such a dramatic discrepancy between two articles on the same topic is healthy. deisenbe (talk) 00:11, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Enredo
> "Samba-enredo" translates literally in Portuguese to "samba in song", or "song samba".

WRONG. Enredo means plot, as in a movie plot. Samba-enredo means it's a samba that tells a story. --179.179.160.229 (talk) 18:52, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Infobox Color
I'm not the one who changed it, but I support changing the infobox color from olive to #9C9C00. Currently you can read the infobox but it's not especially present to do so. #9C9C00 is only SLIGHTLY different (specifically lighter) and makes it easier to read. I certainly don't see any harm. Thoughts? ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ᐐT₳LKᐬ  21:20, 15 January 2019 (UTC) olive vs proposed new color ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia  ᐐT₳LKᐬ  21:22, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

samba
Samba (Portuguese pronunciation: [ˈsɐ̃bɐ] (listen)), also known as samba urbano carioca (urban Carioca samba)[1][2] or simply samba carioca (Carioca samba),[3][4] is a Brazilian music genre that originated in the Afro-Brazilian communities of Rio de Janeiro in the early 20th century.[5][6] Having its roots in Brazilian folk traditions,[7][8] especially those linked to the primitive rural samba[5] of the colonial and imperial periods,[9] it is considered one of the most important cultural phenomena in Brazil[10][11] and one of the country's symbols.[12][13][14][15] Present in the Portuguese language at least since the 19th century, the word "samba" was originally used to designate a "popular dance".[ 119.93.43.74 (talk) 13:50, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Samba- Variants and Historical Developments Valorization
The page downplays the historical importance of the state of Bahia in the foundation of Samba, as it first definition present of Samba, is of "Carioca Urban Samba", which implies that this is the true definition of Samba, which while mentioned several times seems to portray two differnt styles, while samba is actually a collection of several variations, as there is no single uniform Samba style.

Before bringing the Ethnomusicologist definitions of Samba, I bring 'Riachão das Neves' famous singer testimony that, present here at 08:10, in which the best known TV channel in Brazil, called him in to answer the matter of what is the origin of Samba, he recalls that while the other Singer Called Batatinha said that there were several songs coming from Rio on the Radio, he brought a "crioulo" (his words) from Santo-Amaro, known by several ethnomusicologists to be the birthplace of Samba, such as cited by several sources, 1, 2  , to play a piece of Samba de Roda, which has an important notoriety for the development of Samba as whole, I.e the Unesco own recognition of Samba de Roda as an Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity, as a response for the question of the origins of Samba.

Furthermore I would like to state that Samba de Roda is a Variant of Samba as much as Urban Samba of Rio, or even the Urban Samba of Salvador, for that matter. For this reason I propose a restructuring of this page taking into account the variants of Samba such as Samba Duro, Samba Afro and Samba de Caboclo, the Urban Samba of Salvador, which was in many moments even more famous locally than Rio's Urban form of Samba, especially in the 80-90's with Gera-Samba, Caetano Veloso, Gilberto Gil, Key figures in contemporary Samba which are from Bahia.

To have the page define Samba as Urban Samba from Rio is disrespectful and inconsiderate to other forms of Samba, and even inconsistent with other pages of Brazilian Rhythms, such as the Samba-Reggae Page which starts with : "These Afro-Brazilians played a major role in the early development of samba, which first took form in a Bahian style of dance and music called "samba de roda", probably in the late 19th century. Samba de roda was brought to Rio de Janeiro by Bahians around 1900, where it was combined with harmonic and rhythmic elements from European influences (such as chorinho and military marches). [...]The paradoxical result was that samba was brought back to Bahia from Rio, but now in a highly altered form, and no longer associated with Afro-Brazilians. Thus, in the mid-20th century, the city of Salvador had many samba schools that were modeled on the samba schools of Rio, as well as blocos (informal street percussion groups), both of which performed Rio-style samba in Carnival parades every year. Yet, ironically, black Brazilians did not participate in these Carnival parades or in the blocos, since they were not allowed to participate. Samba-reggae represents an effort by black Brazilians to develop a Carnival parade music that they could call their own, and to form all-black or mostly-black blocos with which they could parade during Carnival. The afro bloco music was very different because they aimed to recreate and strengthen their community through their music."- Wikipedias English Samba-Reggae Page Where it is explicit that the white-washing of Samba happened in Rio, and Samba-Reggae tried to recover the African influence. However Samba-Reggae wasn't the only form of Samba done in Bahia, as there was other forms such as Samba duro, Samba de Caboclo and other forms of Samba such as Pagode, Pagode Baiano or Pagodão, and the Samba Junino, which is part of Salvador Cultural Heritage .

While each variant of Samba could merit it's own page, this is the main page for Samba, and it does not make sense for one variant to supplant others as the "official version" of Samba RodolfoVisconde (talk) 19:34, 31 January 2023 (UTC)


 * "primitive rural samba" is a prime example of prejudice within the article. The rural Samba is still significant part of Bahian Lore, (see sources in many topic), and the term primitive does not apply at all RodolfoVisconde (talk) 19:57, 31 January 2023 (UTC)


 * You've wrecked the clarity (and the grammar) of the lead. I appreciate that your efforts are in good faith, but what exactly was wrong with calling this a music genre rather than "a name or prefix for several rhythmic variants", whatever that's supposed to mean? The UNESCO stuff also isn't part of the definition; it would still be what it is with or without international recognition. It can come later in the article. WP Ludicer (talk) 17:47, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

What Whoever Created the Infobox for this Lazy?
The infobox doesn't have all of the subgenres and ends with "among others". Some of the subgenres that are listed don't even have their own pages on Wikipedia! 2600:6C5A:417F:794E:C8FF:8BB3:7DF9:BBB4 (talk) 01:56, 4 January 2024 (UTC)