Talk:Sammy Davis Jr./Archive 1

Cocaine and Satanism
The book Deconstructing Sammy by journalist Matt Birkbeck, states that in the late 1960s "Sammy found solace in drugs, particularly cocaine and amyl nitrate, and experimented briefly with Satanism and pornography". In his autobiography, "Why Me?: The Sammy Davis, Jr. Story" and the 2000 update Sammy: The Autobiography of Sammy Davis, Jr. he mentions his cocaine addiction. A search of Google News finds many news articles for Davis and cocaine/drugs. Why has his cocaine addiction been left out of the Wikipedia page? Davis admitted himself he took cocaine. Yet another example of Wikipedia NOT being accurate. And his Satanism is mentioned in the book Deconstructing Sammy. newtaste —Preceding undated comment added 09:01, 22 June 2009 (UTC).

On this "satanism" matter, this was a common thing in 1960s Hollywood. Satanists came "out of the closet" in 1968A.D. with the Supreme Court ruling that it was religion to be respected and protected under the law. Also the Unite Nations Organization later recognized it, as well as the W.I.C.C.A. Church as a N.G.O. Many showbiz types have been involved since the inception of the movie industry. And besides, there was also Aleister Crowley's "Order of the Golden Dawn" cult, which many describe as Satanic, and was a founding institution of Hollywood, as was Scientology, which also intersected with the former, as well as the Satanists was common, and explains a lot of what may to many seem unexplainable, especially in mysterious and bizzare crime cases. Mr. Davis' alleged participation was that of your typical Hollywood type; a fully-indulgent hedonist!!! --69.126.238.184 (talk) 05:15, 4 May 2011 (UTC)Veryverser — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.72.13 (talk)

"satanic" idiocy
the responses to the "alleged satanist" mention do nothing but demonstrate ignorance of the so called "church" of satan which he clearly had some run-ins with, which has little to do with worshipping satan and much more to do with mockery and the prostitution of attention. Moreover, certain so-called Satanic groups most definitely had established contact with the man and continue to claim him as one of their own, regardless of the actual personal beliefs of the man. --Diablorex (talk) 02:42, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If you find any actual evidence for that, let us know. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 03:00, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Sub page nominated for deletion
The subpage Cultural depictions of Sammy Davis, Jr. has been nominated for deletion. John Vandenberg 12:23, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Satanist?
Sammy here is listed on the List of Satanists page. The talk page has a citation, but I can't really confirm it. Googling gave me quite a lot of hits, but I really couldn't tell if any of them stretched beyond the conspiracy theorists that pervade the internet. Anyone know anything about this? I was hoping snopes.com would help, but they haven't addressed it. I guess it's at least a confirmed rumor, and he's an "alleged" Satanist anyway, which is not the same thing. I'd like to hear from other people (and not just "I like Sammy, he's great, he can't be a Satanist", but something a bit more substantial). -R. fiend 14:28, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * NO he couldn't have been one, since he was Jewish, like it is said he converted in a hospital. 19:42, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I was rather startled by that in the article. I had never read or heard anything like that about him. It doesn't seem to be at his IMDB page or much else.--T. Anthony 14:22, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I see the official "Church of Satan" group and his niece allege it. As people never tell untrue stories of their uncles it must be valid. Like the claim Einstein was a Christian Scientist.--T. Anthony 14:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Sammy was a good friend of Jayne Masfield (actress) who was involved with satanists once in her life. He simply can't be labeled a satanist by associatiom..--XLR8TION


 * I know my own memory will not be considered a reliable source but I remember Sammy being the Phil Donahue show saying that he used to keep one of his fingernails painted red to show his allegiance to the Church of Satan. He was promoting his autobiography at the time so it may be written in there MrBlondNYC 11:12, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I 'remember' that according to Snopes.com and other sources, a lot of people "remember" that the CEO of Procter & Gamble said on Donahue that his company was Satanist. And I 'remember' that Snopes concluded that it never happened. Not that I would propose Snopes as a source for anything other than verifying that Snopes 'says' it, but... McGehee 03:09, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * True I don't have the episode on tape. But keep in mind he was promoting his autobiography and was talking about his notoriously self-destructive behavior. He wasn't saying that he IS a Satanist. He was saying at a certain time in his life he went through a weird period where he experimented with Satanism and regretted it. I doubt he did all the things that Satanist do whatever they are. He just said that he kept his fingernail painted red. And it is true that he was friends with Anton LaVey as evidenced by a famous picture of them together. MrBlondNYC 11:29, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Satanists do not believe in God or the Devil, so he could not have been both at the same time. But, just because he was Jewish at one time doesn't mean he didn't change religions later. People do change their minds, and not everyone believes in the same religion all their lives. Even preachers have been known to later become atheists. Therefore, just because he converted to being Jewish while he was in the hospital doesn't mean it's not possible for him to have been a Satanist later on. Cokie500 23:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * In the article for Karla LaVey it says, "In 1973 Karla met and presented Sammy Davis Jr. with his warlock baphomet amulet on behalf of her father." But the statement does not include a citation. Cokie500 23:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I found this blurb:
 * LEGEND: Anton LaVey was a close friend of Sammy Davis, Jr. and inducted him into the Church of Satan.
 * REALITY: Sammy Davis, Jr. was invited to accept an honorary membership in the Church of Satan by Michael Aquino. After Davis sent Aquino his acceptance on March 17, 1973, he was presented with the honorary membership on April 13, 1973 by Aquino and Karla LaVey alone. Anton did not meet Davis until August 1973.
 * SOURCES: Davis letter to Aquino 3/17/73; Church of Satan Priesthood Bulletin 4/30/73; Aquino, COS, Chapter 23; Sammy Davis, Hollywood in a Suitcase (pre-publication text, printed in Daily News, New York, 9/11/80), Karla LaVey.
 * Can anyone verify the pre-pub autobiography text printed in the Daily News? - Wickning1 17:30, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * There are pictures in the Church of Satan history by Michael Aquino at www.xeper.org of Sammy Davis Jr. with Anton LaVey, Diane LaVey, and Michael Aquino. He was involved even if later he dropped it. WerewolfSatanist 05:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I read somewhere that he "played along" when he attended at least two Satanist rituals along with a girlfriend of his who was a believer, but that he personally didn't believe in it, and was actually bored by the whole ordeal. Could be from his second authobiography, Why Me?, but I can't remember the exact quote. Demf 17:26, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I read in a Anton Szandor LaVey biography, that he was a close friend with Sammy Davis jr. and Lavey granted him as "warlock" of the satanic church on April 1976. 19:43, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Now the article has no mention of neither the Church of Satan or of his friendship with LaVey. If there exists some good source for this, this is information that should be presented in the article. __meco 20:03, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * He was a Satanist and according to the CoS he achieved the position of Warlock within the church in 1973. There are images of Karla LaVey presenting him his Medallion. --QSaranis 23:25, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It is well established that Mr. Davis was involved with the Church of Satan. Any debate about how serious or devout he was about such involvement simply betrays that one doesn't really understand what the Church of Satan was about at that time. It doesn't matter whether or not he took it seriously for his involvement to be notable, and therefore worth mentioning in the article.--Diablorex (talk) 01:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

After reading all the discussion on Davis being an alleged satanist, I don't see any sources that could be considered definitive or even all that credible, which could justify including this rumor, especially when it could be considered financially harmful to his estate, and therefore possibly actionable, to include this rumor. I'll have this page on my watchlist, and if someone reverts my deletion, I'll forward the link to this article to Davis's estate, and see if they want to take this up with Wikipedia administration. I don't mean that as a threat, I really think it is the best way to resolve the issue, if people think it is THAT important to mention this rumor.Mmyers1976 (talk) 20:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * My thanks to Gareth E Kegg for contacting me about his very valid concerns regarding my statement that I would contact Davis's estate if the mention of Davis's alleged satanism was added back to the article. This is what I told him:
 * Thanks for contacting me about this. I do understand your position about my talking about alerting his estate. I kind of knew when I posted it that it would naturally be read as a threat, even though I sincerely don't mean it as a threat. I know it sounds like me saying "don't you revert, or I'm gonna call Sammy's estate". It's sometimes hard to express intent though text - there is no tone of voice, etc. to give one clues. I just looked at the LONG back-and-forth discussion about this, and thought deleting it would probably just result in it being reverted - there seem to be some people highly invested in keeping the rumor on his page. I thought that if we can't settle it here, maybe Davis's heirs could definitively settle it, even if their settlemen would be to ask the Wikipedia management to make sure this is not on his article. It borders on libel, and is hardly encyclopedic. If I had an encyclopedia article written about me, and someone added some possibly libelous information in it, I hope someone would alert me so I could set the record straight. It's any wikipedian's choice to revert my edit, and it's Wikipedia management's choice to decide whether or not that exposes them to a libel suit, and it's Davis's heirs' choice to decide if they want to ask that it be permanently deleted, or seek legal relief. In order for Davis's heirs to have that choice, they have to know about it, they have the right, but wikipedians and Wikipedia have the right to know in advance that I would alert his estate, which is why I said I would. Again, I didn't mean it as a threat, but I guess there is no way to say it that wouldn't be taken as one. If the edit is reverted, I will not alert the estate until after I have contacted Wikipedia management, to give them a fair chance to deal with the situation internally.Mmyers1976 (talk) 17:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I hope that addresses anyone's concerns. I don't want to get anyone in trouble, I just think Davis's estate has the right to weigh in on this, as influential as Wikipedia has gotten these days.Mmyers1976 (talk) 17:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * My response: "I sympathise with your frustrations, but you can't libel the dead, and I have grave doubts that the views of relations are more objective than those of biographers and researchers." Gareth E Kegg (talk) 09:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * His estate is an ongoing entity which still earns from use of his likeness and royalties from his artistic products and could be financially harmed by damage to his reputation. I don't know the law in UK, but in the US, depending upon the state in which the suit is brought, relatives of a dead person can sue for libel. For instance, in my state, Oklahoma, the law reads:

"Libel is a false or malicious unprivileged publication by writing, printing, picture, or effigy or other fixed representation to the eye, which exposes any person to public hatred, contempt, ridicule or obloquy, or which tends to deprive him of public confidence, or to injure him in his occupation, or any malicious publication as aforesaid, designed to blacken or vilify the memory of one who is dead, [683 P.2d 1349] and tending to scandalize his surviving relatives or friends. BOTTOM LINE - I'm not a law expert, so I don't know if Davis's estate has any grounds in suing over the satanism allegation - but my letting people know that I intend to share with the estate the presence of the allegation on Wikipedia is not a threat, does not violate wikipedia policy, and though you may disagree with it, no one can prevent me from doing so.Mmyers1976 (talk) 16:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You would be well-advised to read this: Risk disclaimer Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 19:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * So because there is a disclaimer that information may be wrong, we shouldn't try to eliminate information which is of dubious encyclopedic worth? Besides, such disclaimers aren't very protective in the US, so they are of little worth. You would be well-advised to read these: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/12/video_prof03.html, www.WikipedaClassAction.org, http://rconversation.blogs.com/rconversation/2007/02/zoellers_lawsui.html, http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060119-6013.html. I make no comment on the merits of the lawsuits or whether or not I agree with them - but these lawsuits show that disclaimer doesn't make Wikipedia or anyone who edits on it immune from lawsuit. Maybe these plaintiffs will lose these lawsuits, but defendents who win lawsuits still find them very costly experiences.Mmyers1976 (talk) 13:27, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Not as costly as it will be to the losers. Meanwhile, there is nothing in the article about satanism, so what's your complaint? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 13:29, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I removed it from the Satanism page. Which you could have done also, with far less effort than you spent making empty threats. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 13:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The comment I was referring to was on this article. I was the one who removed it Saturday.Check the history and get your facts straight.Mmyers1976 (talk) 16:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

To expand on what Baseball Bugs has said... you are absolutely correct that the information was poorly sourced and controversial, and needed to be removed. However, the preferred way of rectifying this problem is not through legal threats (see WP:LEGAL), but rather by consensus and editing. Legal threats are poisonous to the atmosphere of cooperation and collaboration that defines Wikipedia.

You also seem to be under the misunderstanding that the folks you are speaking to "own" Wikipedia or something. We don't. So pointing out to us that various organizations have at times considered suing Wikipedia doesn't really have a point. First of all, we know. Second of all, that's not us being sued, so I'm not sure what your point is. Lastly, and most importantly, we are already doing what we can -- we remove libelous and inaccurate statements when we find them, just as Baseball Bugs did once you pointed out the problem regarding Sammy Davis Jr. and false rumors of Satanism. Do you have a different suggestion other than just removing the statement???

Anyway, consider this a warning. In the future, please do not make legal threats on Wikipedia under any circumstances. If there really is a legal issue that needs attention, there are other channels for this other than commenting in Talk pages. In this case, there was no need to go to those channels, because all you had to do was remove the content. Thanks, and happy wiki-ing. --Jaysweet (talk) 15:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I am well-aware of the nature of Wikipedia, and that the contributors here do not "own" the site, therefore my notification of my intention to share future satanism allegations with Davis' estate is not intended as a threat to them .Again, I made no legal threat. Sharing information with people or entities is not legal action. What they choose to do with such information is not my concern. Letting people know that I would share such information is not a threat. Your interpretation of WP:LEGAL is overreaching. I have explained my position, will not alter my previously stated intentions, and therefore there is no need for further discussion. This is my last post on this subject.Mmyers1976 (talk) 16:33, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Your comments were, in fact, "threatening", and all you had to do was to change the content yourself - a fact which the attorneys would have pointed out. In effect, your non-action on the article contributed to any public perception of Davis being a satanist. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:42, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I did change the content on this page myself, on Saturday. Check the history and get your facts straight.Mmyers1976 (talk) 16:56, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You failed to remove it from the Satanism page, which is where the complaint originated. So you did only half the job. Which also points out why your threats have no basis. Users make a good-faith effort to remove controversial unsourced material. But we can't be everywhere at once. Next time, lose the threats and fix the problem. That's your job as an editor. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Jimmy Wales: "There's a sort of typical pattern where I've seen this happen over and over and over. Somebody, they go to an article and they see something they don't like in it so they blank the article. Right. So somebody warns them, and then they blank again and they get blocked. Right. Then they make a legal threat and they really get blocked. And it's just like a totally bad experience for that person, when in fact, they may have been right in the first place. Or maybe they weren't right. maybe they just didn't like what we wrote about them, but still, we didn't handle it well ... And the few people who are still sort of in the old days, saying, "Well, you know, it's a wiki, why don't we just... ", yeah, they're sort of falling by the wayside, because lots of people are saying actually, we have a really serious responsibility to get things right." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_overlook_legal_threats —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.15.156.226 (talk) 16:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The editor is not a first-time user. He knew that all he needed to do was fix it, and not make threats. Wales' comments don't apply in this case. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Upon further reflection, my mistake was thinking that I was being courteous in letting people know that I might alert Davis' estate, so that they would know beforehand. Apparently this is not appreciated, so if a similar situation arises in the future, I will not post on Wikipedia my intent to inform the entity of the possibly defamatory information, nor will I post on Wikipedia that I have done so after the fact. I will just go ahead and inform the entity.Mmyers1976 (talk) 19:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You continue to make groundless threats. If you see a problem here, fix it. That's your right and responsibility as an editor. And making threats is liable to get you banned. Unless that's what you want, stop it now. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 20:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Please try to remember that wikipedia's civility guidelines enjoin all of us to "assume good faith". My last statement was not intended as a threat, and I would ask you not to jump to conclusions. I sincerely understand that I made a mistake in thiking I was being courteous by stating my possible future actions, please take that at face value. I get it that there is a strong belief here that any statement like mine about contacting Davis' estate is negative to the atmosphere of cooperation. What I am saying is that since that is the case, I understand that such statements as mine are not appreciated and therefore I will not make them anymore. Please remember to assume good faith and maintain civility according to Wikipedia's guidlines, which also enjoins against "ill-considered accusations of impropriety."Mmyers1976 (talk) 20:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Regardless of what you think you meant, multiple users on here have seen it as a threat. So it might occur to you that the problem is on your side of it. Stop it. Stop it now. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 20:27, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I have already said that I recognize I made a mistake, and would not do so again. I recognize that my expression and choice of words was the problem. I am not sure what more you want, so to avoid a flame war with you, I will disengage and let you have the last word.Mmyers1976 (talk) 20:34, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Reliable or unreliable?: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.30.103.164 (talk) 07:25, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Religion / Jewish
Citations needed on extra statements concerning religious. No original research on religious views allowed. 19:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Please do not remove the links to Davis' Jewishness. www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/sammydavis.html Rklawton 04:08, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Good point in the edit summary. There is no contradiction between being Black and Jewish. I dated many years a lady who was both, from birth. gidonb 04:12, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Still, someone who knows more about Sammy Davis should add a few sentences to explain how he became Jewish, since his being Jewish was a feature often noted in the entertainment media.--M @ r ē ino 14:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it was Godfrey Cambridge who once made gentle fun of Davis being Jewish, i.e. that he didn't see any point in being discriminated against twice! Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 19:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, numerous actors and public figures poked fun at Sammy for converting, as well as many derisive statements and denunciations. The most well-known of these pundits was his pals Frank, Dean, Peter, Phyllis(Diller), and most scurillious of them all, Joey Bishop, who not only made fun of Sammy adopted religion and mocked him for being both black and an M.O.T.( Bishop, himself a Jew,) but also used it as a well-known technique on stage to deflect attention from his (Bishops')weak performance, as he was indeed a ad-on to the power-house trio of all-aroound, multi-faceted actors\singers\song-writers\comedians. --69.126.238.184 (talk) 05:33, 4 May 2011 (UTC)Veryverser

Puerto Rican Descent
Sammy Davis Jr., was of Puerto Rican descent as stated by himself. Just because one person claims differently doesn't mean a thing. Here are three of the dozens of reliable sites which back up his own Puerto Rican claim. Bio of Elvira Sanchez in IMDb, Sammy Davis Jr. and Tribute to Sammy Davis Jr.. Tony the Marine 21:03, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The book has extremely good reviews, and I have read parts of it on Amazon and it seems highly unlikely that the author was mistaken.
 * www.randomhouse.com/catalog/
 * www.mqmagazine.co.uk/issue-12/p-64
 * www.handbag.com/gossip/celebrityinterviews/denzelwashington/gossip/celebrityinterviews/tomhanks/
 * www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/
 * Arniep 22:18, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I have tried to reason with User:Arniep in regard to his continous reverts in the Sammy Davis Jr. and Elvera Sanchez articles, see:
 * User_talk:Arniep
 * Arniep insists on posting his version and his version only. Arniep cites as proof the following transcript from an unauthorized bio, a book written without the permission of the Davis Estate by Wil Haygood.  The transcript can be found here:
 * http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780375403545&view=excerpt
 * For some unknown reason Arniep refuses to accept the overwhelming fact that every reference to Sammy Davis Jr., and his mother point to the fact that Elvera Sanchez was of Puerto Rican descent and "not" Cuban. Nor Arniep or the author of the book cite official documents to back up these claims.
 * These are only three sites of the many which state that Davis' mother was Puerto Rican:
 * Bio of Elvira Sanchez in IMDb,
 * Sammy Davis Jr.
 * Tribute to Sammy Davis Jr.
 * In every other biography of Sammy Davis Jr., it is stated that his ancestors were Afro-American and Puerto Rican. In his own autobiography  "Sammy : The Autobiography of Sammy Davis, Jr. by Sammy Davis, Burt Boyar, Jane Boyar", Sammy Davis claims that his mother was Puerto Rican.  How could we doubt his own words?
 * Another thing, the author claims that Davis denied his "Cuban" ancestry because of the "Anti-Castro" sentiment. This does not make any sense since it would be almost impossible to keep his whole family and his friends quiet for so many years.  If that was the case then way didn't Desi Arnaz of "I Love Lucy" fame, Cesar Romero and Celia Cruz do the same?
 * I have tried to reach a "middle ground" with User Arniep by offering these new versions: Elvera Sanchez and Sammy Davis Jr. as a solution but, Arniep refuses to cooperate and instead of having an open dialogue about the issue, continues to revert.
 * I have no personal interest in either article. My main concern is that commonly accepted facts and not "hearsay" be posted in Wikipedia articles.  To quote Sammy Davis himself: "I'm colored, Jewish and Puerto Rican. When I move into a neighborhood, I wipe it out!"   Tony the Marine 01:31, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The book got horrible reviews on Amazon.com. Four readers rated negatively. Furthermore, the author wrote a book on Adam Clayton Powell Sr., another famous African-American who married a Puerto Rican woman and had a Puerto Rican son. His family says that the autobiography is unbased. Please site documents. A book review is not good enough. I think we have made this clear to you using examples. You have either little research skills or are simply ignorant. XLR8TION


 * Tony and XLR, please familiarize yourselves with our verifiability policy and the supporting reliable sources guideline. Specifically, they say that statements by the subject of the article do not supersede published, verifiable documents. In the case of a conflict between what the subject of an article claims and what external documentation states, the external documentation (assuming it is a reliable source) is given precedence. In such cases, it is appropriate to state that the subject claims one thing while other sources claim another. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 23:41, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Census Research
Two census records show that the family was Cuban - with daughter Elvera Sanchez (Davis) born in New York.
 * The 1930 census shows this family:


 * Name: Louisa Sanchez
 * Home in 1930: Manhattan, New York, New York
 * Age: 41
 * Estimated birth year: abt 1889
 * Birthplace: Cuba
 * Relation to Head of House: Head
 * Race: Negro (Black)
 * Parents' birthplace: Cuba


 * Household Members: Name Age
 * Louisa Sanchez 41
 * Julia Sanchez 26 daughter
 * Elvera Davis 23 daughter, b. New York married (absent from household)
 * Gloria Sanchez 6 grand daughter


 * 1920


 * Name: Lousa Sanchez
 * Home in 1920: Manhattan Assembly District 21, New York, New York
 * Age: 31 years
 * Estimated birth year: abt 1889
 * Birthplace: Cuba
 * Relation to Head of House: Head
 * Father's Birth Place: Cuba
 * Mother's Birth Place: Cuba
 * Marital Status: Widow
 * Race: Mulatto
 * Sex: Female
 * Occupation - ladies maid
 * Home owned: Rent
 * Year of Immigration: Un
 * Able to read: Yes
 * Able to Write: Yes
 * Image: 914

21:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Household Members: Name Age
 * Elvera Sanchez 14
 * Julia Sanchez 16


 * Denise, so-called original research is not permitted on this site. Sammy always said when he was alive he was Puerto Rican, than a biographer came on board and did an unauthorized bio on Sammy saying he is Cuban;. Since usually a verbal confirmation is considered more legitimate that has to be mentioned, and the other claim (remember this has never has been confirmed by the Davis or Sanchez) families will be mentioned but only to alert readers that others disagree with Sammy's claims when he was alive. Since the claim is a rumored that never has been confirmed it can't not be included in the article. Articles can't rely on rumors to make an article legit. --XLR8TION (talk) 16:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I have watched this ding-dong over his mother's ancestry for some time, and having actually read the book, feel that a compromise is required. I like the current version, saying Sammy described himself as Puerto Rican, but Haygood claims his mother was Cuban. Sammy is dead, so any biography is now unauthorized, and I have faith in biographies to expose things that the subject disagrees with and hides. Sinatra went into battle with Kitty Kelly, who made much rumor about his life verifiable, and Ella Fitzgerald's real birthdate was only discovered after biographical research, to give two relevant examples. I do not think, therefore, that the subject should be the ultimate arbiter of their life story. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 19:01, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Gareth you have a good point there, however, in maintaining the site's NPOV guidelines, the article should state Sammy's claims vs. the author's claims. The editors who have eliminated Sammy's PR ancestry claims even deleted a cited source, which can be labeled vandalism if you look at it. The "early life" section is now written in a NPOV manner. This will allow the reader to see both viewpoints and decide for him/herself which claim is more credible. --XLR8TION (talk) 20:00, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Take a look at the following, from his maternal grandmother's obituary in 1996: At the memorial service, friends noted that Louisa Sanchez was born in Cuba and that her parents were black and Native American so she lived her life as an advertisement for harmony among all races. All Hallow&#39;s Wraith (talk) 08:03, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

All In The Family
Maybe his famous scene on the sitcom All in the Family should be mentioned? 67.182.22.63 00:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * May want to mention his guest appearance on "All In The Family" including the famous kiss...
 * www.tvacres.com/sex_techniques_racial.htm
 * Goes well with his pushing for racial equality. 05:48, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with both folks above. If we can include trivial mentions of him in songs, then the longest recorded laugh in television history, when SDJR kisses Archie Bunker, should definitely be there. CodeCarpenter 15:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * UPDATE: The episode has a large section in the All in the Family page, a subset of which could be added to this page, IMO. All In The Family  CodeCarpenter 15:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Impressionist
Impressionist???? 15:01, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Glass Eye
What about his glass eye? Its been discused in pop culture numerous times.71.70.171.247 (talk) 22:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)AME
 * Archie Bunker to Sammy Davis, after telling everyone else it was impolite to bring up this subject: "How's your eye?" Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:59, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Missing Television Credit
I want to add the great role he had in an episode of The Wild, Wild West, with Robert Conrad. He played a stable hand with a psychic ability to communicate with horses, and make them stampede. it was excellent! By Starvester, 10-30-2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Starvester (talk • contribs) 06:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I believe there is a missing television credit. In the late fifties or early sixties, Sammy Davis, Jr. had a role in a television show about soldiers in basic training. Sammy's role was that of a young and mentally slow recruit that was ridiculed and taunted by other soldiers. The other soldiers decided to play a practical joke with a "dud" grenade. To their surprise, Sammy's character throws himself on the grenade to save his comrades. Does anyone else remember this outstanding performance? John Royall —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.68.100 (talk) 15:52, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I remember the movie and would like to find out the movie name so I can get a copy and see it again. As I remember, it was a good movie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.196.241.226 (talk) 07:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I saw him last night in an episode of "Charle's Angels" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.241.109 (talk) 22:34, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Friendship with Sinatra
After describing his early career, it mentions that he joined the Rat Pack, started by his "old friend" Frank Sinatra. This doesn't seem like the right way to introduce Sinatra. The article should first mention something about where they met and became friends. I'd add it myself, but I have no idea how they met. --MiguelMunoz (talk) 08:52, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Davis met Sinatra for the first time in the late 1940's, while Davis (still with the Will Mastin Trio) opened for Frank Sinatra at the Capitol Theatre in New York. IGG8998 —Preceding undated comment added 15:10, 5 November 2010 (UTC).

Theme from Baretta?
I'm wondering if the fact that Sammy sang the theme song from Baretta ("Keep Your Eye On The Sparrow") is worth putting in the article, and if so, where? Joe JJC (talk) 22:08, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

possible cleanup of article???
I recently read this article and I found it to be somewhat repetitive. (For instance, the controversial nature of Davis' second marriage.) I also feel that the article should be organized so that the events of Davis' life flow in chronological order. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ebonyellis (talk • contribs) 07:16, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Sammy Davis Jr. Greater Hartford Open
Has anyone ever found information regarding how Sammy's sponsorship of this golf tournament in Connecticut came about? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.183.229.46 (talk) 13:25, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Grammy Awards
The years seem messed up. Danthecan (talk) 07:04, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

That Might Not Be Walter Reuther with Davis and Wilkins.
In the Roy Wilkins article here on Wikipedia, the other man in the picture is identified as a reporter, not Walter Reuther who was head of the United Auto Workers. Indeed, the third man in this picture is holding a microphone.

Another picture from this event, on the Walter Reuther page, which may or may not have been taken on the same day, shows Reuther wearing the same kind of badge as Wilkins and also the "spread" of Reuther's shirt collar appears different.

I am leaning towards thinking that this third man is not Reuther but a newsman.

Any other thoughts? Satchmo Sings (talk) 02:42, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Better picture in infobox
The infobox should have a younger picture from the height of his popularity.--Beware the Unknown (talk) 06:38, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Contradiction
Near the top: "he lost his left eye in an automobile accident" ... further down: "Davis lost his right eye as a result" So... which is it? 12.165.139.33 (talk) 19:21, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

TV

 * The Rifleman – episode "Two Ounces of Tin (#4.21)" (February 19, 1962) Sammy portrayed a distraught son whose father died in "North Fork".   He was terrific, but I wish the ending had been different.  I wanted Lucas McCain to offer him another Marshall's badge, such that everyone lived ever after.   Western's in those day's were called "shoot-em-up"s.   Too bad.   Sammy could have come back in further episodes.  It might well have changed Sammy's career.   The Rat Pack formed later - further testimony to his talent.   --96.244.244.244 (talk) 01:40, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Renown
This article fails to mention that Davis, Jr. was nicknamed The Tap Dance Kid early in his career. He was considered a child prodigy. Also, there are numerous public mentions the he was at some point labeled as the 'greatest entertainer in the world' - prominently when he was part of the Rat Pack. This should be put in either the lede or somewhere in the Career section.Journalbug (talk) 07:19, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

?
why in hell is there an Arthur Silber Jr. redirect to this page? The guy seems to have written a bio on the subject but is only in a bibliographical footnote. (full disclosure: i was wondering whether the "power of narrative" blogger had an entry.) 184.78.166.161 (talk) 03:06, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

swag
he had OD swag — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.146.158.187 (talk) 17:56, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Garbage statement. "WE" are somewhat professional here. Why don't you make sense of the comment instead of just throwing it out there?Blondesareeasy (talk)

Bisexual categories
I don't see any mention of sexual activity with or romantic interest in males, only females, so why is he categorised bisexual? --  Jack of Oz   [Talk]  10:29, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Good point. I did read something somewhere to the effect, but if it's not validated, why bring it up? Blondesareeasy (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:52, 30 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I see the category was removed on 3 January, probably om prompting by my question. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  21:55, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Satanist Silliness
I'ved removed the Satanist silliness ultimately derived from an All About Jazz 2006 April Fools prank. No, he was not a Satanist, and sad to say he did not record a Satanist jazz album! The tiny kernel of truth in this was his role in the 1973 comedic TV movie Poor Devil, and apparently he was given a joke award from Anton LaVey's group as a result of that.--Pharos (talk) 16:07, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * But is this the end of the story? " In Why Me? (pgs 208-9) he offers that “one morning after a ‘coven’ that wasn’t all fun and games… I got some nail polish remover and I took off the red fingernail.". There may be more to Sammy the Satanist than Poor Devil. And in the department of WP:OR Davis' daughter is currently working on a biography that may have more Satanic revelations. --Wlmg (talk) 16:34, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The details are a bit hazy, but the best I can make out is that he had some minor involvement with them (an award, parties, etc), after they approached him in the wake of Poor Devil. One should keep in mind to take accounts from the Church of Satan with a fair grain of salt, as the group is known for rather fabulous self-aggrandizement.--Pharos (talk) 17:44, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This is true. In the department of even more WP:OR there are no references to Anton LeVay nor the Church of Satan in Poor Devil whatsoever, though there are sources out there that claim otherwise. --Wlmg (talk) 19:10, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

File:Sammy Davis Jnr Allan Warren.jpg to appear as POTD
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Sammy Davis Jnr Allan Warren.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on June 14, 2013. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2013-06-14. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:05, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Laugh In
Should mention that he made a number of appearances on "Laugh In". AnonMoos (talk) 13:32, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 25 December 2014

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved. Number   5  7  13:02, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

– Per new consensus at Manual_of_Style/Biographies, Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biographies, we omit commas around Jr. and Sr. rather than using one before and randomly one or none after. This is the first RM discussion reflecting this new consensus. Dicklyon (talk) 17:19, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Sammy Davis, Jr. → Sammy Davis Jr.
 * Sammy Davis, Sr. → Sammy Davis Sr.
 * Support following the arguments given in the above-linked discussion, showing that no-comma is now the generally preferred style. But would agree to treat these two as special cases if it can be shown that the literature about them is consistent in using the comma. W. P. Uzer (talk) 20:20, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It's about 50/50 in sources. His daughter's book about him does not use the comma, for example.  Dicklyon (talk) 20:40, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:NCPDAB, which says the comma is preferred. -- Calidum'''  20:53, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
 * But do you have a reason for preferring it (or for believing that it is preferred)? If not, then WP:NCPDAB should rather be updated to reflect the more recent consensus. W. P. Uzer (talk) 21:07, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
 * For one, that discussion is not enough to change a guideline like the MOS. Most style guides say either form (with no comma at all or one comma before and one after) are acceptable. So I don't see a good reason to change it here. Start an RFC if you really want to change the MOS. But this seems to be another case of Mr. Lyon improperly using requested moves to change guidelines. -- Calidum  21:24, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The RM was to test the apparent consensus at the page I linked. An RFC is another way we can do that.  I am not trying to change guidelines myself.  Dicklyon (talk) 01:36, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for pointing out WP:NCPDAB, which seems to contradict WP:FULLNAME on the comma. We may need to straighten these out before the present RM can rely on guidelines.  Dicklyon (talk) 01:36, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, the comma included in WP:NCPDAB was added without comment or discussion on 30 Sept 2014; I have undone that change. Dicklyon (talk) 06:15, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Interesting, I just saw that as well. I've struck my opposition, though I still feel a better consensus is needed. And apologies for calling you out, that was uncalled for on my part. -- Calidum  07:39, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * No problem. Independent of whether the guideline update goes through, I think this move is the right thing to do.  The existing Manual_of_Style/Biographies that you reverted back to says Do not place a comma before Jr., Sr., or Roman numeral designation unless it is the preference of the subject or sources concerning the subject.  But a scan of sources shows it's very mixed; was there some place where somebody decided there was a preference of the subject or sources?  Are we really wanting to research such things for every subject?  All the people discussing the proposed change thought not.  Dicklyon (talk) 08:05, 26 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Support: Finally! I've been waiting with bated breath for us to stop inserting that useless comma. And yes, do update NCPDAB, which is subordinate to MOS on style matters.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  11:06, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Cautious Support A cursory glance at Sammy's contemporaneous album covers and books by reveal mixed usage. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 14:38, 16 January 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Commas
I worked on Sammy Davis Jr. discography and found only 3 of his many albums using the comma on the album covers; it's possible I missed some, but they are uncommon for sure. I fixed many articles to do without the comma. Dicklyon (talk) 06:54, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Yes, the archive link is OK. Dicklyon (talk) 02:09, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

The lede?...
The lede states "He died in debt to the Internal Revenue Service, and his estate was the subject of legal battles." but (against WP:LEDE) there is nothing in the article about those various issues. Also, Ref #9 is a dead link. Shearonink (talk) 06:03, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
 * WP:SOFIXIT. Dicklyon (talk) 06:25, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
 * If and when I have the time... Shearonink (talk) 06:34, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Satanism
I've read on the Internet that Sammy Davis Jr., was, for a time, a member of the Church of Satan. Is there any truth to this, or is it balderdash? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.115.164.35 (talk) 23:04, 1 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Was. he was also Order of the knight of Malta. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/87257311500297587/69.29.215.172 (talk) 06:04, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I believe that is Freemason, York Rite, Malta. Otherwise he would be Catholic, and I don't believe he is Catholic.69.29.215.172 (talk) 06:07, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Redundancy re Jackson performing wedding
This phrase is redundant: "Jackson also performed Davis's wedding.[45]"

Suggest removing the above phrase and moving the footnote up to where the info is first given.

ChicagoLarry (talk) 21:59, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

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Will Mastin Trio
The information in the article intro, in the Will Mastin Trio article, and in the section about his early career seem to be in conflict.

WRT the Will Mastin Trio & Sammy Davis Jr, the following seem to be true: Nuanced, but the facts need to be sorted out. &mdash; ERcheck (talk) 19:55, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Will Mastin Trio originally started in the 1920s with Will Mastin, Sammy Davis Sr, and Howard M. Colbert Jr.
 * Sammy Jr, when he was a pre-schooler, would occasionally join them on stage. But he was not one of the three who make the the three of the trio.
 * Howard M. Colbert Jr. left the original trio in 1941 (Colbert left for the Army)
 * In 1941, when Colbert Jr left the trio, Sammy Jr replaced him as the third trio member.
 * The Will Mastin article seems to indicate something different - more along the lines of the Sammy Jr article - with the trio being originally Mastin & Sammy Jr.

Hug heard around the world
Lots of interesting info and analysis from Malcolm Gladwell in his recent podcast. Joel S Bateman (talk) 17:43, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

A BBC documentary in 2014 said ...
"A BBC documentary in 2014 said "?

How can a documentary 'speak' ?

Please reference this source. It sounds like more of today's 'revisionist' history, jerry-built on hear-say, gossip, rumour, shaky recollection, and the sensationalist fantasies of a fame-greedy author.

Perhaps this sentence should read 'An interviewee in a 2014 BBC documentary claimed...' etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:B19E:D87B:5735:9FC2 (talk) 21:55, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Hug with Richard Nixon, 1972 GOP Convention
This moment seems to have been a somewhat memorable moment in US politics. It would be good to explicitly add this:

As stated in the NYMag piece:

According to the Library of Congress, Davis claimed that “a widely publicized photo of the embrace infuriated members of the black press and also some of Nixon’s supporters, who were outraged to see a black man hug the president.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/magazine/2003/09/14/the-hug/0a2746a1-88fa-4738-9d96-4ee0e84c1118/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a6fd20baa22b

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/03/infamous-famous-hugs-obama-bell-breitbart/slideshow/2/

CBS News: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4l67x5

https://timeline.com/sammy-davis-jr-supported-richard- nixon-308c949a8bfd

This was discussed here: http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/26-the-hug-heard-round-the-world — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.45.249.69 (talk) 16:42, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Drug use, drinking
Shouldn't there be something in here about is drug use (cocaine) and drinking? That could have led to his early demise.
 * I came here to find out about the split with Frank Sinatra, then saw on another site that it was because of Davis' cocaine use. Seems like an too important a historical matter to leave out! --tgeller (talk) 10:02, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

No mention of Sammy's sauce line?
In 1989, Sammy Davis Jr. introduced a brand of sauces/condiments starting with barbecue sauce, chili, and mustard. According to an article from the L.A. Times, it was to be introduced inearly to mid year in 1989 then go national in the fall. I foudn other references to folks who said they used enjoy buying his brand of barbecue sauce but couldn't find a lot else on his products. It would be a good idea to try and find how long the prodcuts where sold for. Where they discontunued when he died in early 1990 or did they outlive him for a time? There is also an interview of him on the The Arsenio Hall Show from 1989 talking about his soon to be launching food product line on Youtube. Assuming we can get more notable sources for thia, I do think it deserves a mention.The Arsenio Hall Show. (L.A. Article: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-02-22-fi-384-story.html )  --Notcharliechaplin (talk) 02:13, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Re: Sammy Davis Jr Chili Fixins, BBQ Sauce & Mustard
These products were introduced initially in the Cleveland, Ohio area. A businessman named James Price, a co-owner of Ideal Macaroni Co.and Weiss Noodles Co., developed the products in conjunction with Sammy Davis Jr. James Price did all of the marketing and distribution. I left Ideal Macaroni in late 1990/early 1991 so I don't know what happened subsequently. Price sold Ideal Macaroni to a large pasta conglomerate in the 1990's.

Daniel Pierce danielpierce418@gmail.com192.152.152.187 (talk) 19:34, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

vandalism revert by Nampa DC
see edit hostory Peace is contagious (talk) 16:40, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

call admin
this Nampa dc keeps reverting valid info & is confused about a civil rights march being policial activism & not part of Davis' career !!! WTF Peace is contagious (talk) 07:41, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Objective oversight ?
{ { ping | Happy-melo } } hi there seems to be a contentious issue, needing admin resolution. Peace is contagious (talk) 23:09, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

calling admin
{ { ping | Happy-melon } } hi there seems to be a contentious issue, needing admin resolution. Peace is contagious (talk) 23:11, 20 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Recent edits by have worsened the article - I have reverted them.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:01, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Plz be specific, this is obviously a moot point as u r incompetent Peace is contagious (talk) 09:00, 21 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Adding random line breaks in the lead. Unsourced statements.  Grammar errors.  Spelling errors (Siantra?!).  Adding unnecessary images.  Misplaced capital letters.  Generally poor formatting.  Reported.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:40, 21 August 2021 (UTC)


 * I've removed your latest amendments, for the reasons specified by Ghmyrtle. Please be more careful in your use of English. Deb (talk) 13:05, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Petty, very petty... Feel free to fix any typos or spelling...that's sorta the jist of wikipedia, no ? Thanx for yer didactic, erudite & circumspect efforts reguarding which images are necessary ! Davis was primarily an entertainer, why Mr. Nampa DC wants a pic of a civil rights march under career, which seems to have sparked this contentious wiki-dialectic, rather than political beliefs, is beyond me... Peace is contagious (talk) 13:11, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Drummer
Shouldn't it be mentioned that he was a fine player of the jazz drums, and also played jazz vibraphone? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 23:33, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Author
As he wrote books as well (Yes I Can, Why Me), should we in the first sentence mention him being an author as well. I added that, but got deleted. Ivo Goedhart (talk) 20:07, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The only books he wrote are autobiographies. He's not an author so much as a memoirist. The media doesn't write "author Sammy Davis Jr." He's famous for entertaining, not writing. Binksternet (talk) 20:14, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

His first book was very well sold though Ivo Goedhart (talk) 20:26, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Picture caption may be incorrect
I think the caption under the Rat Pack picture may be incorrect. I think this picture was taken in front of the Sands casino in Las Vegas, not the Cal-Neva casino which is (or was) actually near Lake Tahoe. Bunkyray5 (talk) 02:20, 2 May 2023 (UTC)


 * According to the file page the caption is correct. -  FlightTime  ( open channel ) 02:41, 2 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Sorry, now I see, Fixed. -  FlightTime  ( open channel ) 02:44, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * This caption is wrong. This famous picture was taken in front of the former Sands casino in Las Vegas. The Dean Martin article also has this picture with the incorrect caption which I fixed. The Wikipedia Rat Pack article has this picture and the caption just says Las Vegas. I don't know how to fix the caption in this article due to the file page thing. Bunkyray5 (talk) 02:17, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The file name is File:Cal-Neva Casino, NV, Lake Tahoe, The Rat Pack 9-2010 (5782322671).jpg and the geographic data shows that the photo was taken at Lake Tahoe, not Las Vegas. Here is the Flickr page where the photo originated. That page also identifies the location as the Cal-Neva Casino at Lake Tahoe. The photo in question is part of a four photo set on Flikr, and the other three photos clearly show the Cal-Neva and Lake Tahoe. Cullen328 (talk) 00:35, 8 May 2023 (UTC)