Talk:Samtskhe–Javakheti

Armenians in Samtskhe-Javakheti
Armenians ARE a majority in Samtskhe Javakhetia. Actually, SJ was created to dilute the percentage of Armenians in the previously smaller district of Javakheti, which comprised Bogdanovka (later renamed Ninotsminda), Akhalkalaki, Akhaltsikhe and Aspindza. Ninotsminda's and Akhalkalak's population is over 90% Armenian, Aspindza less than 50% and Akhalthiskhe was a little over 50% Armenian, with half the villages populated by Armenians, the other half by non-Armenians. After Georgia regained its independence, Javakheti was transformed into Samstskhe Javakhetia and the percentage of Armenians came down from close to 70% to almost 55%. Other ethnic groups living in the district include Georgians, Greeks, Azerbaijanis and Russians known as Malakans or Dkhoburs, which were actually a religious sect. The live in 4 adjascent villages on the border between Javakheti Georgian and Armenia.

Please remove the dispute on the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.223.211 (talk) 21:39, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Armenian majority
Actually they form a majority both in Javakhk (with 94-98% of the population of Akhalkalaki and Ninotsminda municipalities) and in the whole SJ mkhare - they number 125 thousand out of 208 thousand. The first number is from ICG report and the second is from this article. Alæxis¿question? 07:17, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * No. They did not form a majority in SJ. Check the result of Georgia's 2002 census here. --KoberTalk 07:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 113,347 / 207,597 = 0.546 > 0.5 => it is a majority, sorry )) Check your own statistics. Alæxis¿question? 07:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * We cannot consider any ethnic group majority based on such a marginal superiority in figures. Furthemore, many Armenian families have unfortunately left Akhalkalaki since 2002. --KoberTalk 07:41, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Whatever... The info I've restored is relevant whether they form 54, 50 or 46 % of the region's population. Alæxis¿question? 07:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well... then why do you discuss only one group in the section? --KoberTalk 07:52, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Because I don't know much about other region's ethnic groups. If you think something is missing please add it. Alæxis¿question? 08:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Then learn about them and stop adding only negative info about Georgia and recapitulating Moscow's policy of manipulating with ethnic issues in the region.--KoberTalk 08:07, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Answering your post at my talk I'd like to add that all those things you think I've omitted are related to the history of region's demographics, rather that to the current situation. It also could and should be added but it's less important (imho). Since I don't usually add material to WP without proper sources I would have to find some references if I wanted to write about history as well. This is not very interesting to me and isn't what I'd want to spend my time on. Alæxis¿question? 08:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Sure... the only thing you are interested in is to slam Georgia.--KoberTalk 08:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

As a coincidental stroller by, I would say that what is presented under demographics (partially) would better belong under a paragraph politics. Relative over- or underrepresentation in the administration (compared to demographic statistics) isn't as much a demographic issue, aswell as a political, isn't it? That way you also leave out a political influence in the demographics paragraph, which could make it look like not NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.120.200.129 (talk) 15:38, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Merging?

 * Big Yes! Otherwise we have isolated articles like:  Meskheti, Moschia, Meskheti Range, Meshech, Mushki, Meskhetian Turks and so forth. I added links... but one article with all info and sources would be better than scattered as it is now. After merging it would be easy to find out what, where, when and who these people were. Now I'm just lost jumping on this links. nikos (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 11:05, 6 June 2009 (UTC).
 * Do you really want to merge all these articles you've mentioned? Alæxis¿question? 13:45, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * How can the articles about the modern administrative entity, medieval district, mountain range, Biblical tribe and modern Muslim community be merged? Granted, they should be better interconnected, but the merger of these entries is impossible and unwarranted. --KoberTalk 13:53, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

How? Easily...   See Moschi. Same people, Different articles.

Moschi or Moschoi is a term from ancient records and may refer to one of the following peoples:


 * 1)   Mushki were an Iron Age people of Anatolia, known from Assyrian sources.
 * 2)   Meskhs ethnic Georgians of Meskheti
 * 3)   Meskhetians or Meskhetian Turks, the former Muslim inhabitants of Meskheti, along the border with Turkey.
 * 4)   Moschia another Armenian/Georgian article.

2, 3 - typically same. (redirecting)

1 already includes 4

I propose:

First:   No Moschi disambiguation page. Add Modern Mushki headline in Mushki article including a brief summary of 2  and 3 and a full link to Meskhetian Turks and Samtskhe-Javakheti.

Second: Merge of Meskheti to Samtskhe-Javakheti under Meskheti headline.

Third:  Merge of Moschia to the existing Mushki/Moschoi headline.

Forth:  Do not merge Samtskhe-Javakheti and Meskhetian Turks

Clear? nikos (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:03, 7 June 2009 (UTC).
 * I don't think that merging Samtskhe-Javakheti and Meskheti is a good idea. The first is one of modern Georgia's subdivisions where all the info about its economy, people etc should go to. Meskheti and Javakheti have significant differences and historically were two distinct regions so it makes sense to keep both articles and put info that is peculiar to one of them (historical, for example) there. Alæxis¿question? 05:37, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Ahaa, perhaps you are right... but what about - Merge of Moschia to the existing Mushki/Moschoi headline  and Moschi disambiguation page where 2 and 3 are the same redirecting to each other? nikos (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC).

History Chapter
We can create a History chapter. And in this chapter we can indicate historical evolution of the region's demographics. 81.242.37.167 (talk) 00:57, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Merge discussion
As noted here, I am proposing that Armenians in Samtskhe-Javakheti be merged into this article. The article does have POV, referencing problems, language and cleanup issues, but there is still information that pertains to the region (particularly demographics) that could be merged to this article - I don't think a straight redirect is the ultimate solution. Please consider this, and interested editors can discuss and do the merge if consensus is reach. Otherwise, the article could be a candidate for AfD. --Russavia I'm chanting as we speak 08:30, 6 May 2010 (UTC)