Talk:Samus Aran/Archive 1

Super Metroid Gravity Suit
The new pic of Samus from Palladian - is that the Super Metroid Gravity Suit? Juding by the games I have played, it looks like it... but I can't be positive. --Sparky the Seventh Chaos 23:21, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
 * The screenshot I added appears after the game credits when the player completes Super Metroid, it's not from the game play proper. I assume the character is depicted wearing the complete gear from all levels of the game and since the Gravity Suit is the last suit that you acquire that's probably the one shown here, but I'm not sure. I only picked up a copy of it recently, so I'm not that familiar with it; I happened to be playing the game and searching for information on the web and I noticed that Wikipedia didn't have an image for this article so I added it. - Palladian 03:17, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
 * Cool, thanks for confirming that. I was just curious. ^_^ --Sparky the Seventh Chaos 23:31, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)

The suit is the Fusion suit.It is made of Metriod cells and intact pieces of her Power suit.

biography
Out of curiousity, does anyone know what the source for the biography information is?


 * I wonder too. Folks, please provide sources so we know this isn't someone's fan fiction. I'm going to remove the current biography in a few days (most of it, anyway) if no source can be provided. Fredrik (talk) 00:09, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I do. The metroid e-manga (japanese, search it on google), the NP metroid comic and the old black nintendo player's guide (I have a copy at home, I don't remember the exact title) But it meshes with what I know about samus, it looks good to me.

CyberSkull 02:14, 2004 Oct 28 (UTC)


 * Good. Could you please add a references section with a list of these works? Fredrik | talk 06:30, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've read a translation of the E-manga, but I question the validity of certain other points in the biography: I haven't played Echoes, so I can't check the information there; could someone else who's familiar with the game check it? --Poiuyt Man talk 01:11, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC) Echoescomes BEFORE Metriod Fusion.
 * "The Space Pirates, lead by Meta Ridley, built a base above and below the surface of the planet, testing Phazon not only on their own, but also on Metroids. This testing gave birth to Metroid Prime"
 * Nowhere in any of the versions of Metroid Prime does it say that the Space Pirates created the creature. Metroid Prime arrived in the meteor that crashed into Tallon IV well before the Space Pirates arrived, according to Chozo lore. According to the creature description, Metroid Prime is the source of Phazon.
 * "As she seached the colony, she found the hatchling...and Ridley, or more specifically, the seed of Ridley."
 * What is "seed" supposed to mean? Ridley's son? I always understood the Super Metroid Ridley to be the true Ridley, repaired from his previous battle on Zebes. He appears to be organic in the game, at least. Then again, I'm not sure about his connection to Mecha Ridley in Zero Mission, or Meta Ridley in Metroid Prime. Anyway, if we don't have clear information on him, then we shouldn't make assumptions and include them in the article.
 * "Samus made a rapid recovery, but was left permanently infused with the cell structure of the Metroid, the very species she had hunted to extinction. To make up for what had happened, the Federation provided her with one of their newer, faster ships complete with a new AI system"
 * The Federation did not provide Samus with a new ship out of pity; it was provided on the conditions that she would destroy the X Parasite and recover their station, and she would have to follow the orders of the Commanding Officer in order to keep the ship.

Does anyone know why the chozo lore entries relating to Samus were removed in the PAL version of Metroid Prime?


 * I know that certain Pirate logs involving the capture of Metroid Prime were removed because they didn't make sense with how you actually find Metroid Prime, so it's likely that the Chozo entries were removed because they were inconsistent with other sources of Samus lore. I think the info gathered from the first North American version of Metroid Prime should be separated from the rest of the biography, with a note explaining its possible inconsistency. --Poiuyt Man talk  01:11, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * The problem with the NTSC Metroid Prime is that it says that the Pirates augmented Metroid Prime, however, they couldn't have gotten into the crater unless YOU unlocked it. That's why Ridley tried to kill Samus. So it is a paradox....--Zxcvbnm 16:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Pronounciation?
I thought is was Sah-muhs Air-en. I heard that's how it was pronounced in the intro that was included in the PAL version of Metroid Prime. --Sparky the Seventh Chaos 01:04, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * The pronunciation according to the PAL version of Super Smash Brothers for the N64 and the PAL version of Super Smash Brothers Melee for the Gamecube is SAH-mus. Emphasis on the first syllable with the 'a' pronounced like in father; the 'u' pronounced like in tube.  Her last name is still under discussion, but I assume the vowels are pronounced the same as her first with emphasis on the second syllable, Ah-RAHN. --ThatNateGuy 00:17, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * The narrator in PAL version of Metroid Prime pronounces the full name as sa-mus @-r@n (in SAMPA) in the end of the game... Though I have heard the eI-r@n pronouncation somewhere as well (maybe it really was that way in the MP intro, as said before; can't check right now)... Though, I don't really care, basically, I think it's pronounced exactly as people would pronounce it. =) --Wwwwolf 17:14, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * In japanese "Mission Zero" Samus writes her name in intro as サムス・アラン. Since katakana is phonetic it is easy to see how it is correctly pronounced. If anyone want to convert it to IPA - go ahead. --Rowaa&#91;SR13] 21:16, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Height and Weight Question

 * ''Height: 1.90 m (6'2") in the suit according to the Metroid II instruction booklet
 * Weight: 90 kg (198 lbs, 6oz) in the suit according to the Metroid II instruction booklet

The phrase "in the suit" appears in the stats section and this is certainly a valid statement, but I'm not sure that it's necessarily correct. This is the context that that information is taken from.


 * CYBERNETIC SUIT TECHNICAL SPEC
 * Samus Aran with Full Equipment
 * » Helmet
 * » Oxygen Supply Equipment
 * » Weapons Hand - Shoots beam or missiles. When the missiles are active, the barrel will be open. The supply of missiles is limited, and it will be necessary to reload. There are many different kinds of beam weapons. The beam that will be fired will depend on which item was last found and equipped.
 * » High Jump Boots - This increases Samus' Jumping ability tremendously.
 * » Infrared ray scope - Allows Samus to see, even in the dark.
 * » Normal Suit
 * » Left Hand
 * » Barrier Suit - Becomes enabled when Samus finds the Varia.


 * Samus Aran - Height: 1m 90cm Weight: 90kg


 * Samus can wear up to 14 different kinds of items. Make sure to arm her efficiently and make good use of each item obtained.

As you can see, there appears to be a pretty straightforward interpretation of those stats as it's under that particular heading, but on closer inspection I'm not so certain. A 6 ft 2in, 198 lb woman is large and imposing to be sure, but healthy and certainly not unheard of. But if those figures are Samus in her suit, she must weight what, 135 lbs, minimum? So does that mean the entire suit weighs less than 63 pounds? Futuristic alien technology, sure, but that's still pretty light. Anyway, Metroid 2 notwithstanding, is there any other information that addresses this? I'd prefer to just have the statements "Height 1m 90cm" and "Weight: 90kg" with no qualifiers if we're just going from Metroid 2 but I may be the only one who feels this way and if I am, there's obviously no reason to change it.


 * Well, looking at the context, it sure seems to me like they switched from talking about the suit to talking about Samus herself. --Sparky the Seventh Chaos 01:17, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

I did some more digging that seems to confirm that Samus is just a very big lady. Nintendo may eventually retcon it, but from the Super Metroid strategy guide and Metroid 2 manual, she's over six foot and nearly 200 pounds. Also, even though some places say 6'3" rather than 6'2", I did the calculation from 190 cm on a conversion site and got 6.23 ft, which is why I rounded down. Insomniac By Choice 05:02, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * .23 feet isn't 2.3 inches, it's 2.76 inches. We're talking base 12 here. Thus, rounding up would be more appropriate. Andre ( talk ) 01:36, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

Ah, good thing one of us has a brain for conversions then. My apologies. Insomniac By Choice 20:48, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Based on the information on the top, I would assume she is wearing the suit. It mentions her arm cannon, and armor. In mp2:e, you can look more closely at all of the upgrades and armor Samus posseses. When you look at the armor, the boots she is wearing have a thick heel, so I would assume that adds a little to the height. Also, It's not like the top of her helmet is pressed to her head. I would guess that there is a gap about an inch or so between her head and the top of the helmet. In the ending movie after you beat MP, she takes off her helmet. Her hair is in a ponytail, which would require having some space. Based on this, I would assume she is closer to 6' or even 5'11". I also wonder about her weight. Is that with the power suit or the varia?


 * If the height and weight do indeed refer to Samus in suit, then it would be Varia. Notice that it says "Samus Aran with Full Equipment", and in Metroid 2 the Varia is the only suit item. --Poiuyt Man talk 02:57, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

ah yes....been playing MP lately......


 * A 6'3" 200lb woman, who is obviously in very good shape makes sense. Charlize Theron (who I would love to see play Samus) is 5'10".  I figure 5'10" is the minimal height you'd have to be to reach 6'3" in full armor, assuming that's the armored height.  Now Charlize is very fit, but not very heavily muscled.  When she was in Monster, where she had a more reasonable figure she was 160lbs.  If she were bulked up to the point that Samus must be at to pull off the stunts she does in ZM she'd prolly shoot up to around 180.  That really doesn't leave a lot weight to account for the suit, and any height added to that only makes the suit lighter.  Now if she is 6'3" than 200lbs actually means she's prolly svelte despite the level of fitness she's at.  And if we go by the images we have of her that fits.  So a 6'3 200lb Samus makes a lot more sense than her being at those figures in armor.  ZM is still the best resource for calculating her weight, if we knew the height of a Space Pirate.  Skunkobot

Maybe the height is a result of human adaptation/evolution? Humans are much taller now than they were, say, 300 years ago, so wouldn't it make sense that people in the future would be taller than us?--chris16447
 * Humans are taller now because of improved diet more than changes in allele frequencies. Just FYI.  --  stillnotelf   has a talk page  00:05, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

On the size issue:
Perhaps we shouldn't take the 90kg figure at face value. That guide was published a while ago, and probably was figuring in the suit as part of the weight. Perhaps using picture attained from endings and the definite height figure of 1.9m to estimate using the standard BMI scale by estimating about where she'd be on the scale from 15-40, and using the mathematical operation as indicated in the article to come about the weight, especially since Nintendo hasn't released anything (to my knowledge) that goes one way or another as to whether that figure factors in the suit. (Note: The current figures, assuming we're saying the suit isn't counted in the 90kg, is 24.9, which doesn't seem horribly bad.)

Digital Watches 23:50, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Only 200 lbs. wrapped in metal? Seems a bit light for a tall, muscular human woman in full armor. -- WikidSmaht (talk) 12:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but it's Chozo technology. I'm pretty sure it's more advanced than human armor. Who says it's metal? It could very well be carbon nanotubes, or god-knows-what-else. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they never explicitly say that it's a pure metal suit. Plus, she was genetically enhanced, so she could be lighter or heavier than she looks in pictures. It's all up to interpretation, until they release actual specs and measurements, both in suit and out, there is no way to know for sure.

Size issue
Aren't the given stats about Samus on the Metroid II context just much too open for interpretation? The way I see it, it would be ludicrous to compute or estimate for anything just because of the reason that we don't have enough info(do you have any numbers on how heavy or large her suit is?); so I think that we should also entertain the most obvious possibility that she is wearing her suit and give it proper note. User:Virgofenix

Metroid song
Why did the link to that song get deleted? It wasn't a promotional ad, there's nothing to promote. If any promotion at all is going on, the whole article is a promotion of the videogame and Metroid movie. The song is just something that some guy wrote and put on his school website for fun. It's not on any commercial recordings or anything like that.
 * That's probably the problem, I think. It seems to be a fan song; while there's nothing wrong with fan songs, they're like fan art and fanfiction in that they are unofficial and thus probably should not be included in an article about the inspiration of the fan media. At least, that's my interpritation; that's probably why I'd have taken the song link off, but I can't speak for the person who did. --Sparky the Seventh Chaos 22:42, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

Cyborg?
Is there any evidence that Samus, is in fact a cyborg? Aside from the original instruction manual that was wrong on most other topics? (Samus is male, Mother Brain is the space pirates' leader, etc) If not, why does this artical have the "fictional cyborgs" category? Assuming that Samus is a cyborg just from that source seems to me like assuming that she is also a hermaphrodite because of the same source.User:dcomings


 * In the Scene 2 narration of Metroid Fusion, Samus mentions the following:
 * "It then came to light that the organic components of my Power Suit had become so integrated with my system that it could not be removed while I was unconscious. Large portions of my suit had to be surgically removed, dramatically altering my appearance."
 * According to this account, parts of Samus' suit have become integrated with her body. Under most definitions, this would qualify her as a cyborg. --Poiuyt Man talk  08:48, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The components of the suit are integrated with her body, but there is no evidence, and, in fact, evidence against the assumption that they are actually a part of her, or that she is dependent on them. This disqualifies her from being a creature that is a mixture (note that the suit is no more a permanent part of her than an article of clothing) of organic and mechanical parts. Also: The parts of the suit said to be integrated to her system were said to be organic, which also discounts this definition. This definition is taken directly from the wikipedia article on cyborgs. Digital Watches 07:08, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You DO realize, that she CAN take her suit off.In Metriod Fusion,they could not remove the suit while she was Unconscionce.
 * There is considerable argument about Mother Brain, and the "male" thing was not a mistake: it was speaking from the point of view of the G-Fed, where she was a mystery. I see no reason she couldn't be a cyborg. -- WikidSmaht (talk) 12:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
 * And I see even less reason she couldn't feed the G-Feds even more BS. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.28.235.211 (talk &bull; contribs) on 00:35, 22 February 2006.
 * She's definitely not a Cyborg. When it says that she was integrated with her suit...its implied in the Japanese online comic that the suit is meant to be a second skin. As in...it connects with her nerves and literally becomes an outer shell. She can feel what goes on outside of it. I think that when the X infected her suit...it got into her nervous system via the suit because of this and removing it while she was uncouncious would of blown her nerves out and thus, killed her. No matter what though, it is still a suit. The definition of Cyborg is that a person is distinctively comprised of mechanical parts integrated with their biological bodies. Samus connects with the suit and is close to it, but its just a suit. Samus is herself, still a totally biological being (albiet with Chozo AND Metroid DNA in her now. She may be a little more than that now.) She's as much a Cyborg as Iron Man, who is definitely not a Cyborg. (not even in the catagory) So I'm removing the cyborg catagory unless someone explains specifically how she could be a Cyborg. Robotic suits don't count.--Kiyosuki 01:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Amen. Spoken like a true fan. I approve. --Gaming King 09:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Chozo Lore
Recently the entire collection of Chozo lore from Metroid Prime has been added to the article, and portions of it existed in this article before. I believe this may not fall under fair use, due to the amount being copied word-for-word from the game. For now, I've removed the section, and instead linked to a Chozo Lore FAQ in the References section. --Poiuyt Man talk  13:50, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Non-sexualized?
She wasn't to start with, but those pics indicate otherwise. Seriously, she is wearing just a bra and panties in the one!
 * Yes, but entire games aren't made to showcase Samus in revealing outfits (Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball style). In fact, the only time a player ever sees Samus without all or most of her Power Suit, are in still images, at the ends of games, and in these pictures, Samus is not shown in any sort of sexual position or situation. She is just portrayed as a woman, relaxing after a difficult mission.
 * Sure, shes not running around half naked for the whole game, but those pics are part of the game, and they're not exactly innocent. I'm not a prude by any means, but I think we're running into an issue of "Its nintendo, and they're kids games".  Still, I don't mind the article claiming she is non-sexualized; for the most part, she isn't.  Its just funny to see such explicit fan service.

I removed the statement that Nintendo made Samus female for sex appeal to help sell games. This obviously isn't true, as Samus is not revealed to be female until completion of the original Metroid. --Pagrashtak 19:11, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I edited it a bit further--I don't see how discussing her raw sex appeal really seems NPOV, just as discussing what seems to be appropriate attire. Personally, I actually found her older Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion outfits less overtly sexual, and plenty appropriate for wearing under several layers of steel. But that sort of commentary is opinion, not fact. The edit wound up unsigned because I got logged out. Whups! Evan L. Kester 03:19, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Now, I'm also thinkin' we should remove that comment about sexuality under that picture. It's obviously based too much upon oppinion. Shall I remove it? --Gaming King 09:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * This is continuing an old discussion, but you can also argue that the pics at the end are somewhat of a peepshow. The better you play, the more you see. Yeah, it ain't anytbhing too heavy, but it is sexualized. Imagine if the same was applied for, oh say, Master Chief. Play decently and you see his face, but play even etter and see him in his underwear? At any rate, there are comparisons between Samus and Ripley, and Ripley is heavily, heavily sexualized. She's the defining "last woman", ya know, the all-business-no-play woman who just happens to run around in her underwear during the "final battle". Anyways, I'd say the caption is worth keeping just to have a counter-point available.


 * I guess... --Gaming King 09:37, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Changed Samus' Age
I made a minor edit to Samus' age, which is 20 in the first game since it takes place in 2025 (the date of 20X5) since she was supposedly born in 2005 according to Konami. --Yahweh 4 July 2005 00:30 (UTC)


 * According to Konami? Please give a reference. How do you know 20X5 = 2025? The information you added is currently unsupported, so I'm reverting it for now. --Poiuyt Man talk 4 July 2005 16:51 (UTC)


 * It's also rather odd that Konami would state this information, considering that they weren't involved in the making of any of the Metroid games. --Poiuyt Man talk 4 July 2005 16:56 (UTC)

I suppose that's true. That's right, Nintendo did make the "Metroid" games. Anyhow, if the Galactic Federation was formed in their universe in the year 2000, then the events that followed should have happened within a reasonably quick amount of time one would assume, and the story says that it wasn't very long before the Space Pirates attacked and all of that. Still, 20X5 could be 2005, 2015, 2025...2095, though there are a couple of websites that I've read that believe the date to be 2025, such as www.metroid-eu.com and www.nesplayer.com, though we won't exactly know 100% for sure. One thing I have found interesting is that the 1st Mega Man game takes place only 3 years supposedly from this year...200X is what the games say, which is roughly 2008, since in "Mega Man 4" it says 20XX, which is "one year after the destruction of Gamma" ("Mega Man 3"), and MM3 takes place a few months after MM2, which is a few months after MM1. So by that 200X is only a couple years before 20XX, so 20XX must be 2010, leaving 200X to be about 2008. Just thought that was kind of interesting, and it does make sense though since "Mega Man X" is discovered on or about 21XX (2114, the date copywrited on Dr. Cain's computer in the original game), or 100 years after 2014. --Yahweh 5 July 2005 23:09 (UTC)


 * Ambiguous dates should be left ambiguous unless you have an official source that explicitly states the date. Fan-made dates based on calculations as such are merely fanon and shouldn't be considered truth; therefore, should not be listed. --Shadow Hog 16:56, 12 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't see any reason why the XX in 20XX implies it must be 2010. XX could just as easily be 09, or any other number. If they wanted to imply a new decade had started they could have said 201X. --Mr. Encyclopedia


 * Ugh! Bottom line is this: Samus's exact age is unknown, but it's obvious that she is a young woman, probably in her early-to-mid-20's. --Gaming King 09:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

One External Link changed
The GameFAQs policy (I've been there a lot of times) forbids any direct linking to a particular FAQ File, so I had to change the link in order to avoid showing an error message (Broken Link). Therefore, I made a link to the Metroid Prime FAQ Page with a lot of FAQs pertinent to Metroid, since GameFAQs does not allow us to link directly to files.

Link Fixed. -- Vesther 4 July 2005 17:36 (UTC)


 * I changed the link to the copy located on IGN, as they allow direct-linking. --Poiuyt Man talk 4 July 2005 19:15 (UTC)

Placement and content of images
While I don't agree with the removal of the Fusion image because it's offensive, I do think that one one suitless gallery image is enough. The images obviously have some intention of being provocative, and having those all over the article doesn't really fit in the "non-sexualized" text. There are numerous depictions of Samus throughout the games, so maybe variety would be good. Why don't we use some of the Metroid Prime concept art, or some of her 3D renditions?

Also, the images should be somewhat related to the surrounding text. I placed the sprite lineup next to the list of games, since it applies to many of the Metroid games. The Fusion picture is just eye-candy, and that's probably why it was removed. It would go better next to the "Challenge of Gender roles section". However, there's already a suitless image there. --Poiuyt Man talk 03:16, 28 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I think the fusion ending image that was there before is more important to use than the Zero Mission ending we currently have because it's a more up-to-date rendition. We should at least put it somewhere.


 * The article refers to how depictions of Samus have become more suggestive over time, and Zero Mission is a more recent release than Fusion. Her appearance under the suit hasn't changed much between the two games, and I think her pose in the ZM picture better illustrates the "sexualization" (is that even a word?) described in the text. --Poiuyt Man talk 03:48, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Are you kidding? If you'll look at the two pictures, you'll notice a major difference. Please at least consider it. I'm not saying we should necessarily get rid of the current ZM image, I'm just saying that the fusion image needs to be there as a representation as the most canonically current Samus —Preceding unsigned comment added by Digital Watches (talk • contribs) 14:55, 2005 August 15

Zero Mission?
Isn't Zero Mission chronologically seen her very first mission (considering the box at the end of the article were it says: "Chronological order: Metroid | Zero Mission | ... "), because if you read what she says in the beginning of the game: "... Now I shall finally tell the tale of my first battle here ... My so-called Zero Mission." It sounds like Zero Mission happened before Metroid (and not the other way round). Opinions on that? --Plumcouch 22:11, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
 * It's the same story, they overlap on the timeline. Andre ( talk ) 22:22, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
 * Zero Mission is merely a remake of the first Metroid, down to the actual level design.--Zxcvbnm 22:34, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd argue that the game is much more than a mere remake, as the gameplay experience is drastically different. It doesn't even really fit Wikipedia's definition of enhanced remake, since that article refers to games that keep the same gameplay, but have improved graphics and audio. In Zero Mission, numerous gameplay elements have been overhauled, and a fourth of the game happens after the events of Metroid. However, the basic world layout is similar, and many rooms are recognizable from the original game. --Poiuyt Man talk 07:18, 8 September 2005 (UTC)


 * This issue has been argued to death on Talk:Metroid: Zero Mission. Yoshio Sakamoto, the game's director, stated that Zero Mission is a "re-telling" of the original Metroid. The two official timelines for the series place Zero Mission after Metroid, because while the stories overlap, Zero Mission has a significant portion of the game that occurs after the point where Metroid ended. --Poiuyt Man talk 07:01, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Samus lost her suit??
From the article:


 * In the struggle she lost her Power Suit and was forced to fight her way to her old home in Chozodia. There, Samus was tested by an ancient Chozo shrine, and given her new suit with the recognizable shoulder pads. She then defeated the auxiliary Pirate leader and escaped the Pirates' Mothership.

The Varia suit is the one with the shoulder pads, and is her most commonly viewed suit. But as shown in Metroid Prime, Super Metriod, and probably the rest of the series, the Power Suit does not have the giant ball shoulder pads.

Whenever Samus upgrades to the Varia suit, that is when she gets her shoulder pads. Check out Metriod Prime, shoulder pads in the beginning, but later on in the game when the Varia suit gets disabled, she looses the shoulder pads and gets her "old style" suit.

Perhaps in like some comic or whatever that is the story, but in all the comics and stuff I see on Metroid... samus never looses her suit (though Ridley defeats samus at one point... i think...)


 * It seems that you haven't played Metroid: Zero Mission, because that part of the article is from the game. So...


 * SPOILER WARNING


 * In Zero Mission, it is made apparent that the suit Samus starts with is not the same as the one in the other games. It does not gain shoulder pads when it is upgraded to Varia, and it is incompatible with the three "unknown items" in the game (Space Jump, Plasma Beam, and Gravity Suit). Once Samus defeats Mother Brain and flies off the planet, her ship is shot down by Space Pirates, and her suit is destroyed. She then travels through an ancient Chozo city to obtain the more powerful suit seen in the other games. This suit has the shoulder pads, and is able to use the unknown items. The differences between the two suits in Zero Mission can be seen at Image:Samus Aran Sprites.gif. --Poiuyt Man talk 06:48, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Biography
Should we put explanations for each section, like in Darth Vader, or links in the titles? igordebraga ≠ 16:50, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Say what?
From the article:


 * In Super Smash Bros. Melee she became a literally slippery character whose playstyle is a far cry from most of the other characters in the game.

Consider my case. I'm not a native English speaker, and I have played very little of Super Smash Bros. (to which this sentence compares the behavior to, obviously), and while I actually own SSBM, I've used Samus very little, so you could assume I'm a good substiture for someone who's a complete and utter newbie to SSBM in this respect and would like to know more...

... and this article isn't helping.

And now I look at that sentence and think "hrrrm, what does 'slippery' mean here - so overpoweringly agile nobody can hit her, or is she too difficult to control for most player? What does 'far cry from most of the other characters' mean - far off to which direction, good or bad - gets beaten by everybody, or beats everyone seven ways even if she as much as sneezes toward them?"

Could somebody please clarify that in the article? --Wwwwolf 17:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)


 * That's NPOV right there. Dread Lord C y b e r S k u l l ✎☠ 21:38, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm feeling a teensy bit Dumb now, but I thought NPOV didn't mean "so ambiguous your head hurts" and "series of carefully constructed terms not indicating any particular preference toward anything and conveying no information whatsoever"?
 * Hmm. I propose the following one then, which doesn't make my head spin and will hopefully fulfill the NPOV requirement just as well: "In Super Smash Bros. Melee, the character remains a playable character that also has distinct properties unique to the SSBM, but allegedly has differences in an area colloquially referred to as "playing style"." You can also add "according to the U.N. security council members" or whatever, if that helps, but I'm not an expert on that. --Wwwwolf 00:51, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * dOH! I meant POV. Sorry. Dread Lord C y b e r S k u l l ✎☠ 11:40, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I use Samus in SSBM all the time she is SO good.
 * That's very nice, Anon, but we can't put that in the article. In SSBM, Samus is a solid ranged fighter, and similar to Link or Ness in that she has a large variety of different weapons to work with rather than a specific fighting style. She is rather heavy, but can bomb jump for an infinite amount of horizontal recovery. --Tjstrf 21:48, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, the whole line is just an opinion. It is true that she is seen as the least popular character in SSB:M, however, but I think it's mostly due to the fact that she is less manoueverable as in the first game. I haven't even noticed anything about this slippery business, but then again, define slippery.--GaryCXJk 20:14, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, she was much better in Super Smash Bros. Got bigger air, had stronger moves... Basically, she rocked. --Gaming King 09:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Size issues
The entire issue some people have with her in comparison to an average person is slightly moot because she is not entirely human. Since she has modified DNA and such, we can't really be sure of her actual weight. She even might weight ninety pounds because, although I doubt it, the Chozo blood affected her muscles in ways not stated explicitly. In Zero Misiion, she can jump disturbingly high, for example, even out of her Power Suit. So there really is no way to tell except asking nintendo, and they might not have given much thought to the issue.
 * Maybe the height is a result of human adaptation? Humans are much taller know than they were, say, 300 years ago, so whouldn't it make sense that people in the future would be taller than us?
 * Humans are taller now because of improved diet more than changes in allele frequencies. Just FYI.  --  stillnotelf   has a talk page  00:04, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but isn't it true that as physical predators become obsolete species get smaller? Well, in any case, I think that the only real way to find out what the mysteries of the Metroid series are is to ask Nintendo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.183.80 (talk • contribs) 17:20, 2005 November 29

Something Interesting
Just by chance as I was looking throught the few screens of the Metroid: Hunters demo for DS, I noticed the top screen of the options page had some very small text. After a while, with a couple eye blisters, I made out that the top screen says: "Samus: The Chosen One. A child born of the race of peoples known as Hunters." now whether this is a metaphor or not, it's somewhat interesting none the less. The next screen was more difficult and I only got certain words, "(Shoulder?) ______: _______ primarily to help carry the l___ of the Hunter's ___." And finally the last screen has 2 sections but only one is ledgible, stating: "The eyes; arguably the most important tool for a hunter. Used for spotting enemies in the most (harshest?) of (terrain?)." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.58.239 (talk • contribs) 05:19, 2005 November 30


 * Those letters are between 3-5 pixels high, and 1-3 in width.So it's mostly how you interpret them. For the top text box the only ones I can make out are: Samus, the Chozen one.A child.....of......of.....peoples known...Hunters. So your guess is reasonable, I suppose.
 * Middle one:..........Primarily To help Carry The L--- ... of The Hunters....
 * And the bottom one seems to say exactly what you reported.
 * Very interesting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.20.18.170 (talk • contribs) 17 December 2005
 * I have a good eye for detail, so I decided to have a look. Here's what I came up with:


 * Top: "Samus: The Chosen One. A Child Born of The Race of Peoples[(?)] known as Hunters."


 * Middle: "Shoulder Guards: Designed primarily To help Carry The Load[(?)] of The Hunter's Gun."


 * Bottom left( the blurry, mostly illegible section): "_____ Metroid Prime _______ ____ _____ ______ __ll__ __ __ ___ ___ _____ _ __ ___'_ ______ this To ___e _____." That's all I can make out for sure... I do have guesses at additional parts, though: "_____ Metroid Prime players ____ _____ ______ __ll__ __ __ All day(/big) _____ & he can't(/don't) Expect this To make sense."


 * Bottom right: "The Eye: arguably The most important Tool for a Hunter. Used for spotting Enemies in The most _ _ _ _ _ _ _ of Terrains." The missing word is 7 letters, it can't be "harshest". -- WikidSmaht (talk) 12:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Age?
Can someone provide a source for Samus' age being 26? --Sparky Lurkdragon 04:40, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

FMA
Does'nt Samus seem to look a lot like Winry from Full Metal Alchemist? The Republican 00:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I really noticed that at an anime convention, where I saw a plastic Winry figure, and I thought, "gee, that looks like Samus".

Holy crap! I just realized it! How did I miss that? I was looking at a screenshot from Super Smash Bros. Brawl, thinking, "Hmm... Samus looks like someone... Who was it?" Well, there it is! And what a coincidence! Metroid is my #1 obsession, and FMA is #3. (#2 is Star Wars.) --Gaming King 09:47, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info
Thanks for the info, but this is too much. Maybe you could put more info on countries...

Cyborg catagory removed
She's definitely not a Cyborg. When it says that she was integrated with her suit...its implied in the Japanese online comic and in other Metroid mythos that the suit is meant to be a second skin. As in...it connects with her nerves and literally becomes an outer shell. She can feel what goes on outside of it. I think that when the X infected her suit...it got into her nervous system via the suit because of this and removing it while she was uncouncious would of blown her nerves out and thus, killed her. No matter what though, it is still a suit. The definition of Cyborg is that a person is distinctively comprised of mechanical parts integrated with their biological bodies. Samus connects with the suit and is close to it, but its just a suit. Samus is herself, still a totally biological being (albiet with Chozo AND Metroid DNA in her now. She may be a little more than that now.) She's as much a Cyborg as Iron Man, who is definitely not a Cyborg. (not even in the catagory) So I'm removing the cyborg catagory unless someone explains specifically how she could be a Cyborg. Robotic suits don't count.--Kiyosuki 01:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with it completely. It has never even been suggested that she has fused with her suit during the Fusion saga.--GaryCXJk 03:17, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Not all cyborgs are obvious. Motoko Kusanagi, from Ghost in the Shell is an obvious example( note: I’m not saying Samus resides in a mechanical body, so don’t attack me as though I am). The old comics, Valiant and I think the Super Metroid one, show her as having internal cybernetic implants along her nervous and skeletal system, to boost her physical abilities and interface with machinery. I DO realize tht those comics are not canon, my point is simply that you have yet to prove she isn’t a cyborg. I’m not saying she definitely is, either, but just because she doesn't look half robotic, doesn’t mean she’s not a cyborg. -- WikidSmaht (talk) 15:42, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, I'm not one of those ultra defensive wikipedia inhabitants, I won't go insane or anything. But on this subject, I beg to differ. There's no proof that she is a cyborg either...and all other facts seen in the games thus far show that she's a person in a mechanical suit, which is NOT a cyborg. Matoko, Dorothy from Big-O, and the like may not be obvious Cyborgs due to their appearance but their respective series' specifically state that they are. So...they are. On the other hand... the Japanese flash-comic located here:


 * http://kodansha.cplaza.ne.jp/e-manga/club/manga/metroid/vol01/


 * And translated here:


 * http://www.mechadrake.com/metroidmanga.html (with regards to Mechadrake of course! :D)


 * ..all point to the fact she is NOT cybernetic. She's trained and raised by the Chozo, and they infuse some of their blood into her in order to allow her to survive better. The short Nintendo Comic, which isn't totally canon now, also depicts this as does the Metroid manga (not this one) briefly run. The above online comic is officially sponsored by Nintendo as well so unless something viable comes out, she's NOT a cyborg. I think there's plenty of evidence to back this up. Yes, she could be a cyborg...but Bart Simpson could be Irish. Morton Koopa Jr could be named after Bowser's real name. Sephiroth could be Vincent's son. But the fact of the matter is, is that there's no evidence supporting any of that...just like there's no evidence of this whatsoever aside from speculative sources. For all intensive purposes, she's a skilled woman in a suit. There's just not enough evidence to put her in the cyborg catagory. This is why I removed it.--Kiyosuki 03:34, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * She was described as a cyborg in the original manual, and I don’t think the fact that she was called “he” discredits that. It doesn’t mean that the information they recieved about her accomplishments and being a cyborg was false, it only means they’d made a false assumption about her sex. I’m not saying there is proof that she is but the lack of proof both ways is equally profound. There is no reason why a person in a mechanical suit be a cyborg can’t also happen to be a cyborg. Your assertion at the beginning of this topic that “She's definitely not a Cyborg.” is at least as unsupported as the claims that she is.
 * R. Dorothy Wainwright is a gynoid, by the way, not a cyborg. -- WikidSmaht (talk) 04:41, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * We probably shouldn't drag this out too much. But fact of the matter is, is that there's more evidence to support that she isn't one. So far the only valid evidence is the manual as you said...which also as you said, claimed that Samus was a man. I think the point of that was, as the wiki suggests, to show how mysterious Samus is...and the different rumors that spread because of that. Sorta adds to her mystisism. Its like the female marine in Metroid Echoes, who talks about Samus as if she were this mythical person that no one else but her believes in (yet, I guess.). Anyways, unless Nintendo specifically shows that she's a cyborg one day...there's more evidence to suggest otherwise now..official evidence. This particular argument happens with Iron Man, Bubblegum Crisis, and the like all the time. I guess its a very speculative subject, but until then human beings (or other biological beings) in mechanical suits do not count as Cyborgs. Samus should not be included in that catagory unless its known 100% that she should be there.--Kiyosuki 07:20, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I would like to add something to that. The earlier manuals *might* have been true translations of the original Japanese ones, however, seeing as there were many other games in which the translation changed some facts (Sonic the Hedgehog and the Eggman debate anyone?), it is highly unlikely it is an interpretation of the translation. Perhapse the original manual meant cybernetic suit? Or, perhapse it was written do deceive us. Also, the later games clash with the original Metroid description. Samus had parents, nowhere it gets mentioned that Samus get a cybernetic body. Even Fusion never said that Samus got permanently fused with her suit. It would be obvious now to discard the "Samus is a cyborg" story, since it just clashes with the rest of her history. --GaryCXJk 00:48, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

THIS IS A DUPLICATE DISCUSSION; PLEASE SEE THE ABOVE CYBORG DISCUSSION. --Gaming King 09:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Paragraph flow in the gender section
Ok I have got to get this off my back. Wikid, you keep reverting this paragraph.

''Samus was one of the first active heroines in a video game, appearing at a time when other popular heroes, such as Mario and Link, were predominantly male and striving to rescue helpless princesses. Some games, such as Super Mario Bros. 2, added female playable characters, but these continued to exhibit exaggerated feminine characteristics. One contemporary female lead character, though less widely-known, was Alis Landale, the heroine of the first Phantasy Star role-playing game. For a time, there were few other active heroines, although the 1990s introduced the first fighting-game female, Chun-Li, and Terra Branford of Final Fantasy VI. Then, in the late 90s, Lara Croft of Tomb Raider made an impression as a female protagonist. Many feminists, however, found her extreme sexualization and unrealistic attire in a harsh environment appalling. While there are many female heroes today, a large majority of them have emulated Lara Croft’s exaggerated sexuality to appeal to a predominantly male gaming community.''

Specifically the mention of Alis from Phantasy Star. I don't know why, this isn't very good paragraph structure. We're talking about Samus specifically, then out of nowhere...

One contemporary female lead character, though less widely-known, was Alis Landale, the heroine of the first Phantasy Star role-playing game. It sounds so tacked on at the last minute. I don't know why it keeps getting reverted. Why does Alis need particularly special mention in a bio about Samus? She should be used to support the fact Samus is a strong female protagonist as an example, not a special footnote.

But I don't want to argue. Instead I think we should hear from at least 3 other people to which one is preferable.

This was my reedit:

''Samus was one of the first active heroines in a video game, appearing at a time when other popular heroes, such as Mario and Link, were predominantly male and striving to rescue helpless princesses. Some games, such as Super Mario Bros. 2, added female playable characters, but these continued to exhibit exaggerated feminine characteristics. There would be other strong, prolific female characters such as Alis Landale of Phantasy Star, the first fighting-game female, Chun-Li, and Terra Branford of Final Fantasy VI. Then, in the late 90s, Lara Croft of Tomb Raider made an impression as a female protagonist. Many feminists, however, found her extreme sexualization and unrealistic attire in a harsh environment appalling. While there are many female heroes today, a large majority of them have emulated Lara Croft’s exaggerated sexuality to appeal to a predominantly male gaming community.''

I know its such a minor thing, but I just feel like that one minor sentence makes the whole thing sound awkward.

So what do others think? --Kiyosuki 07:29, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Note: It isn’t out of nowhere, the paragraph in question is a discussion of how Samus was one of the first females to break feminine stereotypes. It’s an important distinction that Alis was roughly contemporary with Samus. The other females mentioned didn’t come onto the scene until the 90s. That’s why I keep reverting it. Also, I don’t mean to turn this into a personal attack, but the fact is, you’ve made some contributions with pretty terrible grammar and flow yourself, not to mention redundancy, so I do think your asking for others to comment here is a good idea. -- WikidSmaht (talk) 17:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No I know I'm not perfect, and I do make mistakes. You don't have to hold back. But I still stand that this paragraph doesn't read as well as it can. The example about Alis I still think isn't necessary.


 * Man...where is everyone? Ahg...it is a pretty small thing. Here I have an idea, I'm going to make another edit to try to find a compromise. Check it out, or if you see it first and come here second then lets talk about it here.--Kiyosuki 08:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I’ve changed it again, because it was awkward. Honestly, though, this issue is minimal. A lot of the prose in this article is... deficient, to say the least. Perhaps if I have a chance I will fix it up someday. -- WikidSmaht (talk) 19:27, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Great, we've reached leeway. I'm happy with how it is for now as well. Its more together this way. I wish all disagreements on wikipedia were this civil..--Kiyosuki 03:19, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

On the Vandalism
It may sound a bit callous, but does anyone else think it's time to start submitting some IPs to be banned? This revert war is getting a bit excessive --Digital Watches 01:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * If you think people are vandalizing too much, submit the article to be partially protected.--Zxcvbnm 01:40, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Good idea. Thanks. --Digital Watches 06:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Minor suggestion of content order
This suggestion can be discarded, because it's more of a "stylish" change, but I think that the chapter "Name Pronounciation" could fit better above "Challenge of gender roles", perhapse even above "Equipment", although it fits better below Equipment, because it is both part of the description of Samus and a point of discussion, which makes a bridge between her stats and the "controversy". --GaryCXJk 12:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

NOT a silent protagonist
I actually don't think Samus is a silent protagonist. Most likely the reason it was put there is because most Nintendo-created protagonists are silent (Mario, Donkey Kong, Link, Kirby, etc.), but Samus I believe is an exception. Occasionally in the games (at least the ones I played, which does not include the 3D ones, but all the others), she does a narration, which I most certainly consider to be an action that a silent protagonist may not have. Therefore, I am removing her from that category. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Speyeker (talk • contribs) 06:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, she talks to her ship and introspects all the time in Metroid Fusion. --  stillnotelf   is invisible  02:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I also don't like the idea of calling her a silent protagonist, and then listing the exceptions in the opening part of the article so I changed the wording. Samus was never really intended to be a silent protagonist.  She just never had anyone to talk to in most of the games.

Speculation on SSBB = bad.
(This is in reference to a reversion I made of speculation by an anonymous user that Samus would transform between suited and survival gear forms.) We cannot say that Samus will be a transforming character in SSB:B, since the language used in the declaration is at best equivocal, and more likely indicates to the contrary. "Under certain conditions," for example, would definitely suggest that this form or mode had to be unlocked by fulfilling a set of conditions. "Remove" is the only term that suggests it might be a transformation, and this is more likely just a colourful way of announcing her entry. For instance, in SSBM every character had a different unlocking message. Dr. Mario's was some bad pun about the "Doctor is in the house", why couldn't Survival Suit Samus's be "That's a woman under there!?!" in reference to the gender confusion issue in the original Metroid? --Tjstrf 06:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Dubious Image removal by User:Zero
Moved this from the Dark Samus article:

Image:Dark Samus.JPG

Nobody, except for Metroid Prime 3: Corruption developers, etc. knows for sure if this is Dark Samus from Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, or Samus in Hyper Mode, since planetgamecube.com typed the exact words "Samus seeks to stop the spread of Phazon and eliminate its presence from the infected planets, even while she herself has been infected with Phazon and becomes increasingly affected by it as the game progresses. Her Phazon infection ties in with the gameplay, as she can now use its energy to enter “Hyper Mode” in either biped or Morph Ball form. While this power is in effect, her attacks are much more potent, but her health is in danger, and she could die if the ability is overused."

If we are unsure of the proper character being displayed, than this picture being present in an article is not appropriate. This comment also requires a citation. I'd recomend a merge of the text into this article, however. -ZeroTalk 12:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The fact that it could be Samus in Hyper Mode is just speculation, therefore it doesn't belong in either Dark Samus or Samus until we learn exactly who the picture is. WP:NOT crystal ball.--Zxcvbnm 22:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * No problem. That's why I brought it to the talkpage. We'll stand by and wait furthur confirmation.-ZeroTalk 00:36, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Stats Argument, and a way to finish it once and for all.
The height and weight statistics aren't really necessary, and given the dispute they're causing, and the fact that they came from the metroid 2 booklet. So much retconning happened (hair color, etc) since then that I can't imagine they're that important, so why not remove them outright and be done with it? Digital Watches 19:21, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe I'm just dense, but... the last argument about the stats that's dated on this talk page was in July of 2005, and the flurry of edits to it recently was a blatant vandal. If you object to me removing the paragraph rationalizing things, here's my case: I removed it because we're not supposed to speculate in the articles.  Just presenting the data and letting readers decide for themselves if it's plausible or not seems more appropriate to me.
 * I'm not sure if you're thinking we should remove the hair and eye color, too, but just in case: keeping them is important as a historical note. Maybe the height/weight info is nothing but a historical note, now, but it hasn't been officially retconned yet that I'm aware of. I could be wrong on this.
 * Good point. No retcon yet, I suppose. Digital Watches 19:21, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, please sign your posts. It helps everyone keep track of the conversations. :) --Sparky Lurkdragon 07:27, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Right, forgot. Sorry about that. Digital Watches 19:21, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Possesive 's
It's Grammar Nazi time... When you want to indicate posession by a singular noun that normally ends in 's', you still add an apostrophe and an 's'. You only omit the 's' for plurals. See Saxon genitive and look at the chart.

Correct: Samus's arm cannon is really cool. Incorrect: Samus' arm cannon is really cool.

Ommitting the additional 's' is only for plurals: Correct: Have you seen all of the bounty hunters' weapons?

I went ahead and fixed this throughout the article.

--olanmills 12:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Phazon
1. Samus is infected by Phazon in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. Where should we mention this? Here's a quotation from the latest Nintendo Power: "The Wii FPS gives the heroine new powers brought on by an injection of the volatile substance Phazon."

2. Phazon is supposed to be captiolized, yet there are many instances of uncapitolized usage in the article. I've done enough for today, can someone get it for me? :P

--Gaming King 10:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * We should mention this when the game comes out and we can see the whole story, and the location will be wherever Prime 3 fits in the timeline.
 * Sure, I'll ctrl-F it. --Sparky Lurkdragon 19:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Ponchi
Samus has (or had) a pet named Ponchi? What is it? What's the source? This is one thing I don't know about Metroid. :P --Gaming King 10:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming it's from the manga. I've never read it, though, so I've put a  tag on it. --Sparky Lurkdragon 19:25, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It IS from the manga, they have an entire "childhood" part which shows that. So you can reference it there.--Zxcvbnm 19:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * fanboy instinct kicks in* ...Where might I view this... Manga? --Gaming King 09:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Uhh....yeah....the first e-manga....there's a link somewhere on Wikipedia....--Zxcvbnm 14:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks for the tip-off. :P --Gaming King 08:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

"Challenge of gender roles" paragraph
What is up with that paragraph? Besides having a very "essay-like" title, it comes dangerously close to original research. Unless someone adds sources soon, I'm going to rewrite it completely. Phil s 10:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No. Don't rewrite it. Remove it completely. That kind of nonsense is left up to the reader's whim. We're an encyclopedia. We detail facts with sources and basis of said fact. -ZeroTalk 13:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Samus as a female heroine
I added a weasel words tag to that paragraph as it seem riddled with them. It basically makes it sound as if all video game females were major sluts before the great Samus came along and freed them all from this stereotype despite the fact that nearly every version of Samus has had some sort of scantily clad form. Not to mention it accuses other 199.126.137.209 19:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC) "While there are many female heroines today, a large majority of them have emulated Lara Croft’s exaggerated sexuality to appeal to a predominantly male gaming community." That paragraph also sounds very opinionative and biased. 199.126.137.209 19:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Section removed
I took the liberty of removing this section. It has no references for things like .any feminists, however, found Croft’s extreme sexualization and unrealistic attire in a harsh environment appalling. or Samus' defiance of this stereotype is part of what makes her such a highly regarded character. These need to be fixed before this can be put back, but I don't know if they can be.--Zxcvbnm 23:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Samus as a female heroine
Samus was one of the first active heroines in a video game, appearing at a time when other popular heroes, such as Mario and Link, were predominantly male and striving to rescue helpless princesses. Some games, such as Super Mario Bros. 2, added female playable characters, but these continued to exhibit exaggerated feminine characteristics. One female lead character contemporary to Samus, albeit less widely known, was Alis Landale of the first Phantasy Star role-playing game. For a time, there were few other active heroines, although the 1990s introduced the first fighting-game female, Chun-Li. Then, in the late '90s, Lara Croft of Tomb Raider and Tifa Lockhart from Final Fantasy 7 made a huge impression on the video game industry. Many feminists, however, found Croft’s extreme sexualization and unrealistic attire in a harsh environment appalling. While there are many female heroines today, a large majority of them have emulated Lara Croft’s exaggerated sexuality to appeal to a predominantly male gaming community.

Samus' defiance of this stereotype is part of what makes her such a highly regarded character. Although Samus is definitely depicted as an attractive female, and several of the Metroid games portray her in somewhat revealing attire if one completes the game under certain time restrictions, her "normal" appearance, that most gamers associate with her is her armored power suit (though in recent years her power suit and her posturing therein have been accused of being redesigned as more femininely appealing to male gamers), with the depictions of her without it seen as a form of fanservice. In recent games, Samus has been appearing in a blue flight suit. Although the suit is skintight, it is less revealing overall. In Super Smash Bros., hitting her with an energy attack, such as the laser gun or Ness’s lightning attack, shows her without her suit, but one can only see a highly polygonal turquoise body for a brief second. In Metroid Prime, she is never actually seen outside of her armor, but she does take off her head gear. In Metroid Prime 2: Echoes (GameCube), Samus is shown in the jumpsuit. In Metroid Prime: Hunters (Nintendo DS), she once again appears in the jumpsuit, but it is better rendered. In the upcoming Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Wii), Samus in the blue jumpsuit (titled "Zero-Suit Samus") is confirmed as a playable character, a la the added ending of Metroid Zero Mission.

Early Life
When was it ever said she served under Adam Malkovich before the events of Metroid? There is no source for this. (124.121.93.4 11:04, 28 September 2006 (UTC))
 * This was referenced in Metroid Fusion; Samus named her new computer CO Adam because he reminded her of Adam Malkovich. Later it was revealed that the computer was Malkovich; his mind had been digitized and uploaded. --Herald Alberich 15:04, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Samus' Gender
I thought that Samus was a Bishōnen MALE character (this still doesn't discount the cheesecake stills either). It is a common theme in Anime to have an effete and effeminate, but highly skilled and deadly, warrior appear and act like that. It kind of junks the whole Samus-as-female concept and kind of ruins the whole article, but there you go...
 * Except for the fact that the games, instruction manuals, and every instance where Nintendo or other companies/websites/magazines talk directly about Samus confirm that she's a woman. If you need in-game proof (not trying to be patronizing; just providing the info), refer to the Chozo logs in Prime 1, or the discussions with Adam in Fusion, where pronouns such as "she", "her", and the nickname "Lady" is used. Arrow 21:01, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The American product was marketed that way, much like the other Bishonen characters have been in America (see pretty much any translated Anime). Westerners usually get kind of turned off by that stuff, so they changed it to fit the market.
 * The script in the games, for the Prime duo and Zero Mission at least (can't confirm the others), didn't change between shores. Too, all the Japanese commercials with Samus physically shown used female actresses.  And Nintendo's Japanese Metroid e-manga, where we're getting all our biographical info from (about her parents, where she was raised before the Chozo took her in, etc.), makes it clear it's a girl too.  So it's not a case of an adaptation across shores; she's always been a female both in Japan and the US.  I seriously understand where you're coming from; bishōnen is all over the place and this is an instance where it could logically fit, but it's simply not the case here. Arrow 21:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Did you see her 3D promotional artwork for Super Smash Bros. Brawl (the one where she is wearing her Zero Suit?) Does that look like any type of man to you? NeoSeifer

Eye colour
I started playing Metroid: Zero Mission again and the beginning of the game depicts Samus' eyes as Heterochromatic. One green eye and one blue. The Shyguy Kingdom also shows this in their ripped sprites. - Zero1328 Talk? 02:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that may be the shine on the visor making it look green. All recent pics of her shows her with two blue eyes.  Her Brawl pic for example.  - Saturn  Yoshi  THE VOICES 02:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm going to agree with SaturnYoshi on this - that's just visor glare. --Sparky Lurkdragon 03:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Jennifer Hale?
Recently, when I entered Samus' article, Jennifer Hale was listed as her VA. I always thought that Samus was a silent protagonist, much like Mario and Link, so since when has she had a VA? NeoSeifer
 * Well, she's technically not a silent protagonist since she does talk, though only in the 2D games so far, with entire monologues of scrolling text. But anyways, as far as voice acting goes, Samus does emit grunts when hit and a scream when she dies in the Prime series, so clearly there's someone voicing her, even if it's not actual talking.  I recently had a long discussion with SaturnYoshi over this, because the opinion of the community over Hale being the VA is split since her official site doesn't list Prime in her resumé.  It seems Game Informer had a "Behind the Mic" article (Issue 161, Sept 2006 pg. 18) that did confirm her role though.  The article is available online, but you need to have a subscription to the magazine to be able to read it. Arrow 02:18, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Morph Ball
I was wondering on two issues about the morph ball:

1. How does the suit change into the morph ball? 2. How does Samus fit inside the morph ball?--BigMac1212 17:27, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

This question, "How old is Samus?" and "How do Missiles fit into her arm cannon?" are the most frequently asked questions I've seen to date. The answer to all three are: "We will probably never find out." -MF14

Yeah. According to Pirate data files, they tried to solve the great mystery of Morph Ball but failed. Miserably. With broken bones. It's advanced Chozo technology.

low-rez image
Do we have to use that low resolution image in the article? It looks butt ugly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.42.147.68 (talk • contribs)
 * Agreed, why can't we get a Smash image of her? Or at the very least put an image of her Zero suit form on here. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 20:53, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I could have sworn there was a higher-res image of her on this article before. Did someone change it recently? &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 21:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, someone changed it. Apparently using the high-res version broke copyright rules, since it wasn't actually a public domain shot.  Or so the claim going around is; I don't know how legit that reasoning actually is. Arrow 21:37, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Fair Use is a sticky grey area. :P &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 21:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

archive
I archived it. It got way too big.-- Atomic -Super  -Suit What Have I Done?! 04:02, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Possessive 's
I see that this article has been changed and even all of the old discussion is gone. Anyways, please make sure to use the possive 's correctly. This is the correct way: Samus's arm cannon is so cool. Note that there is an apostrophe and then an additional s. This is correct. See Saxon genitive for the correct way to show possession in English writing.

Anyways, I went ahead and fixed all of the possessive 's errors. I hope I didn't mess anything up. --olanmills 19:48, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

So... do you mean "possessive errors" or possessives' errors?" "Rule 1369 of interweb grammar correction: Any time you try to correct someone else, you will make a mistake yourself."
 * No, I meant what I said. I guess it wasn't clear. I meant possessive " 's" errors. Anyways, see the second entry below for a more thorough explanation--olanmills 03:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

sexist
no i am not a girl but saying that most female humans do not weigh 90kg is a bit sexist, dont you think. perhaps it could be changed to say something like according to images, it apears to be with power suit insted of saying with because she is a female. just a little sugestion, but i will change it in 24 hours... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiencyclopedia.com (talk • contribs)
 * Or we could just remove that bit. If it wasn't specified, it wasn't specified. I say we let the readers decide for themselves; we're just here to report. Heck, for all we know those are perfectly sensible measurements for a part-Chozo human female in the far-future setting of the Metroid reality. --Sparky Lurkdragon 07:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well she's an in-shape human/Chozo who probably has a fair bit of muscle. And not amount of high tech gadgetry can fit less than 50 pounds of tech into he suit. 200lbs isn't too much, considering she's 6'3" and at least decently muscular.
 * There's actually an equation for calculating a person's "ideal" weight based on their height. For women the formula is 100 pounds for the first five feet, and six pounds for every inch above that. For Samus, that would give us an ideal weight of 190 pounds, though she would likely weigh a bit more than that due to the fact that she's fairly athletic, so 198 pounds is a very plausible weight for her without the suit.Tpkc klick 20:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * -Well, I'm female, 6-2 1/2 (freaky, huh?), athletically built and am around 173 (between 170 and 175 lbs) pounds on average -- I'm not bony or anything. Keep in mind tall people often have very long legs (Samus's Character does, and while we're at it, so do I) and a lot of weight is carried in the trunk.  People with very short legs and a big trunk can gain and lose huge amounts of weight without it being noticed... people who have long legs and a small trunk generally can't get away with it as easily (unless the weight gain and loss occurs on the thighs hips, buttocks, and basically not on the trunk.)  BTW, I put hyphens in front of my post and Sparky Lundgren to avoid our posts from appearing to be from the same user AVKent882 02:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC) A.V. Kent
 * -At any rate, I'm getting kind of sick of removing speculation on this in the article. Personally, I think it's probably her in the suit, but the fact is we don't know. --Sparky Lurkdragon 02:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Something I've noticed
Samus is typically portrayed in her suit--the only time she's seen outside of her suit in the games is during select ending sequences and the end part of Zero Mission. However, the page seems to give a different image of Samus--one of Samus outside her suit. The percentage of the pictures of Samus unsuited is too large (four out of nine counting only the ones from Metroid games). Is having a picture of the ending sequences from every single game necessary?


 * They're basically progression photos to show how she looks in the different games. I'm guessing.  - Saturn  Yoshi  THE VOICES 09:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I must say I agree with the fact that there's way too many Samus pictures of her outside her suit. This is not the way she is generally shown; a blonde happy chick. It would be more interesting to see more of the different suits she wore over the years.Mansize 15:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I concur. But we should have at least one shot of her without a suit on. Like the one where she wears her halter top and shorts. Jackson Smith 21:32, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Tense
This article needs a serious tense cleanup. Are we using the past, present, or furutre tense here? I see them all at once and am confused as to how to go about editing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.196.169.10 (talk • contribs)
 * All the in-universe history stuff is supposed to be present tense, except possibly when discussing Samus's childhood before the games begin. Real-world stuff (i.e. "the game led players to believe she was male") should be past tense. Future tense is used when talking about Metroid Prime 3, because it's not out yet, but I'm not sure it should be. --Herald Alberich 13:39, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Metroid DNA
The way the article is put makes it look like Samus has metroid DNA in Metroid Prime: Hunters. Unless I'm mistaken, the only game she has metroid DNA is Fusion. Someone fix this, I'm too lazy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Da p3n6u1n (talk • contribs) 21:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC).
 * Good eye, fixed. --Herald Alberich 22:10, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Possesives (again)
Why does some one keep changing it back? Look it's just English grammar. It's either right or it's wrong. It's not a matter of preference.
 * See Saxon genitive for the correct way to show possession in English writing.

To show that Samus has possession of something, you have to use an apostrophe plus an additional s. It's a common misconception that you omit the s when the word already ends in s. That is done for pluralized words that end in s. Here are some examples:

Correct: Samus's ship is fast.

Correct: The witness's testimony is solid.

Correct: All four of my tires' treads are in good condition.

Correct: The boxes' lids are all different colors.

Incorrect: Samus' arm cannon can be upgraded.

See Saxon genitive for the correct way to show possession in English writing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Olanmills (talk • contribs) 05:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC).


 * Preach it!Xenongamer 22:07, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

About "Physical Characteristics" secton removal.
A Man In Black has removed the physical characteristics section of this article twice now without a reason given nor a word about it on the talk page. I think it is a worthy part of the article and should be included, at the very least there should be some discussion about it before it is deleted outright. Maybe we could move some of the data (height, weight, age, etc) into the infobox and merge the remainder into another portion of the article? I don't know of an infobox template that covers all the info, the one used for pro wrestlers seems pretty close though. How hard would it be to cobble one together out of that and the one currently on the page? Until then I'm going to re-add the section. Lando242 18:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I've fixed this problem a bit but it still needs some corrections.Lokon40 04:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It's unencyclopedic trivia, in greater detail than we go into for real people. It's all in-universe info, describing Samus as a real person instead of a part of a fictional story. It's just not what we do here. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

How do you know its describing her as a real person? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lokon40 (talk • contribs) 22:29, 15 March 2007


 * The info should be worked into the article, not given its own template/list. Plenty of fictional characters are described in detail. Just make sure you specify which game provides this information, and in what format (in-game, instruction book, etc.) otherwise it's just cruft. Noclevername 00:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Theories
Might I add that this article is completely theories. It is impossible to tell how exactly Samus's life is laid out. All we can do is theorize untill Nintendo comes out with (god forbid) a guide to Samus's life. those who read this article may think that all this is true. BULL!!! Just a warning to all...Xenongamer 22:05, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it's not. We know the Metroid chronology, it's an established fact, and the e-manga provides details of Samus's childhood. --Herald Alberich 22:29, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, the chronology shown in the article is wrong... Both Metroid Prime and Prime 2 take place after the NES game and before Return of Samus and all other games in the series. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Link floyd (talk • contribs) 05:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC).


 * I think you're wrong, because on the official site for Metroid: Zero Mission, it has a timeline:
 * Metriod (/Zero Mission)
 * Metroid 2: The Return of Samus
 * Super Metroid (aka Metroid 3)
 * Metroid Prime
 * Metroid Prime 2: Echoes
 * Metroid Prime: Hunters (I don't know about this one, I assume it falls between MP2 and MP3)
 * Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
 * Metroid 4: Fusion
 * Metroid: Dread (I assume, although it's not an official game, but it was supposed to be a sequel to Fusion) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.7.141.45 (talk • contribs)
 * It makes more sense in this case to go by word from the game's creators via interviews instead of US-made websites that weren't put together by the people working on the actual games. I mean, if we did that, the Zelda articles would have to claim one Link has been time-traveling for a dozen games now. Arrow 20:24, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Prime 2 Timeline?
Doesn't Metroid Prime 2 take place after Super Metroid? One of the Federation Trooper logs in Prime 2 states that "there is no way a lone human could destroy Zebes."
 * It takes after Metroid Prime, which takes after Super Metroid. 24.7.141.45 15:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No it doesn't. The entire Prime series takes place after Metroid, but BEFORE Metroid 2. —Preceding unsigned comment added by King Zeal (talk • contribs)
 * Just take a look at Metroid series. :) &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 18:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * One of the Marine Logs mentions that Zebes exploded. Therefore Prime 2 takes place after Super Metroid. Taotd 05:29, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Clearly that is an obvious mistake and they were referring to only Tourian, considering Nintendo and Retro Studios both have already confirmed the timeline KeiferSkunk just linked as being ironclad in various interviews both before and after Prime 2 came out. Arrowned 05:42, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge Discussion ("Samus Aran's gunship" into "Samus Aran")
Starting the discussion for merging Samus Aran's gunship into this article (Samus Aran). Reason being that there is a HUGE amount of unnecessary detail on the gunship article, mainly detailing the cosmetic differences between the ship's different incarnations in each game in the series. There are very few functional differences in the ship in each game - it pretty much always serves the same basic purpose, regardless of its appearance and method of propulsion.

The only major differences in terms of functionality that I'm aware of are:
 * Metroid: Zero Mission: The original ship is destroyed in the game's ending, forcing Samus to steal a Pirate ship to get off-planet.
 * Metroid Fusion: The ship contains a computerized commanding officer and can take multiple creatures aboard.
 * Metroid Prime 3: Corruption: The ship is slated to have some automated air-strike capability, still yet to be finalized.

The remainder of the changes between games have to do with the ship's physical design (wings or lack thereof, method of propulsion, etc.), and these things do not need to be heavily detailed. Key features, like the front window's similarity to Samus's visor, seem to always stay the same, and those could also be called out in one or two sentences.

It was argued in Talk:Samus Aran's gunship that large portions of the article are fancruft. I think fancruft might be a bit too strong a term, but I do think there's a lot of redundant info that can be condensed into a section within this article, since Samus's gunship is an integral part of her presence in the series.

Okay, I'm done. :) &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 19:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Since nobody came to discuss this issue, I have performed the merge, according to the rules in Merging and moving pages. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 19:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, that is a rediculously brief entry, with respect to the amount of information that was in the deleted page. What's this "no one came" rational for going ahead with a merge that was decided against a few months ago when the page was completely reworked to trim OUT the fancruft? Angel the Techrat 20:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I proposed a new merger a week ago. Aside from one person on the other page pointing out that a similar proposal had been made more than a YEAR ago before the page was reworked, NOBODY responded to this discussion or any discussion on the gunship page.  According to the terms on the Wikipedia page, if there doesn't appear to be any controversy for at least 5 days (and pointing out a previous merge proposal more than a year in the past doesn't count, IMO), I can perform the merge and be bold.
 * In doing the merge, I kept information specific to the individual games in which the gunship has behavior that differs from "normal", but summarized information that is common to all games (such as the fact that the ship has changed cosmetically throughout the series, but its overall functions and reason for being are the same). When you perform that sort of "optimization" of the information, you end up with about 3-4 paragraphs of text, which is not enough to warrant a separate article with lots of pictures, IMO.
 * BTW, I merged information about the ship's appearance in SSBM and the comic book into the appropriate sections further down in this article. Based on that, nearly all of the information (minus the extra pictures, which are more appropriate for the individual game articles anyway) has been merged. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 20:19, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Man In Black: Could you please refer to the edit history before deleting the whole Gunship section? The version I put in there was NOT crufty. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 00:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Huh, I thought that was the merge.


 * Currently, it's all sourced to personal observation and doesn't seem to be too terribly important (in the sources-have-felt-the-need-to-comment way), but your version looks a lot more useful than the lengthy, crufty, multisection version. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:57, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with needing to clean it up some - I've taken a couple first steps toward that. I do think that the gunship warrants its own section, as there are some key features about the gunship that deserve to be described in more detail than just "Samus uses it". But it didn't need the level of detail that it had in the original separate article. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 01:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * A very large point is that there have been four visualy distinct ships (not counting the upcoming Prime 3 ship), two of which have been destroyed through the course of the plot. And.. a shot of a ship that only appears once is not really the best example of a representative shot for the entry. I'm working on getting a better screencap. Will upload in a few minutes. Angel the Techrat 03:12, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * And I think that's a great point to include in the article, in pretty much the exact words you just used. But the point I was trying to make in doing the merge was that each incarnation of the ship didn't need its own sub-article. (Also, the Zero Mission screenshot was IMO the best one on the original gunship page - I would have used one from Prime or Prime 2, but the caps there weren't very good.) &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 15:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

In response to this

Well, that's what the section immediately below is for, heh. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Plot Summaries
It just occurred to me that the majority of this page is overly-detailed plot-cruft. Since this page is about Samus, most games in the series would only warrant very brief descriptions of the game. The only games that would require more would be Zero Mission, Super Metroid, or Metroid Fusion, as they detail major events in Samus' life. Other than that, the games are basic missions for Samus. King Zeal 13:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I've been looking for some sort of useful references to try and add some real-world context, to make this look something like Solid Snake. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:06, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


 * In the interest of cleaning this up, I'm thinking we should remove all of the section headings and convert the "Role in the Metroid series" section into a series of paragraphs (no more than one or two per game) that very briefly describe the nature of Samus's mission(s) in each game. The level of detail we have here is overwhelmingly unnecessary, and we don't need separate sections for each game. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 17:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Hatchling Verification
KieferSkunk asked about this in an edit. The Chozo referred to Samus as "the Hatchling" in three different pieces of Chozo Lore in Metroid Prime, all in Chozo Ruins (Crossway - "Hatchling's Shell", Ruined Fountain - "Hatchling", and Magma Pool - "Newborn"). The text of them all is far too big to quote here though, so feel free to check in your own copy of the game. Alternately, there's a [FAQ] at GameFAQs that gives the text of all the lore, which would probably take less time than loading the game up. — Arrow 19:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Cool, thanks. :) I hadn't recalled her being referred to as the Hatchling, but that's good info.  I'll refer to GameFaqs as a reference for that particular line. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 20:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Samus can be seen woth our her suit in almost every game

Trivia?
I noticed there is no trivia section for this article. Is it not necessary or something? If i is necessary, somebody please add it. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.15.28.42 (talk • contribs)
 * Trivia lists are actually frowned upon at Wikipedia. Arrowned 00:15, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Image of Samus
The current picture of Samus outside of her suit is of somewhat low quality, and it doesn't really reflect her post-Zero Mission appearance, which has remained consistent up to and including Metroid Prime 3. Maybe a different image from one of the post-Zero Mission games should be inserted in its place?--4.242.24.180 01:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * We could replace it with the SSBB pic of Zero Suit Samus.  bibliomaniac 1 5  Tea anyone? 04:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Here are the reasons why that would be inadvisable. First, according to Wikipedia Fair-Use guidelies, all images must be internet resolution (low resolution) or lower.  Internet resolution is generally considered to be less than 0.1 megapixels to prevent production of counterfeit goods.  Also, there is very little content of Samus in her zero-suit or of her out of her suit, and the article should reflect this.  Also, since SSB is not considered part of the Metroid series, an SSB picture wouldn't be advisable, either.  Finally, most post-Zero Mission pictures are either 2D or similar to her appearance in the Prime series, so to really save a lot of trouble with fair-user rationales and copyright issues, orphaned images, and the such, the current image is the most suitable.  Trust me about uploading a copyrighted image, I've been there.  It's not pretty.
 * -- FastLizard4 (Talk•Links•Sign) 04:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Even with the difficulties regarding copyrighted images, I don't believe that the current image should be considered the most suitable just because it's already there. Also, an image of Samus from Smash Bros. Brawl would still be viable because, even though it is an image from Smash Bros. and not Metroid, it does depict an accurate rendering of Samus in her Zero Suit. If you look at Zero Suit Samus from Brawl and Samus as she appears in the ending of Metroid Prime 3, you'd see that there is very little difference in her design. If an image of her from Brawl were used, it would just need to be accompanied by a caption stating that the image is from Brawl, but is an accurate rendering of her appearance in Zero Mission and beyond.--4.242.15.124 07:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * By all means, create an account, upload a picture, and witness the hassle first-hand. I would recommend you read the following first, however.
 * 1. WP:FU
 * 2. WP:FURG
 * Remember, theres nothing stopping you from uploading the image, and, in response to what you said, a previous discussion here came to the conclusion that the main picture should not be Samus in her Zero-Suit or out of her suit, to reflect the percentage of media in that respect. Also, it isn't the amount of trouble that is the problem, but Wikipedia discourages having other fair-use content ''beyond what is absolutely necessary.
 * -- FastLizard4 (Talk•Links•Sign) 23:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not talking about the main image. I'm talking about replacing the image of her with her helmet off. And I don't really understand why it shouldn't be an image of Samus in her Zero Suit given that roughly half of the Metroid series as a whole has depicted her with the Zero Suit, as well as recent media outside of the Metroid series. Despite her numerous appearance changes from Metroid until Metroid Prime 1 and Fusion, her Zero Suit appearance has been her most consistent appearance outside of her power suit, which to me says that is what she really looks like in terms of current canon.--4.242.15.15 04:35, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * While it is a truly tremendous amount of trouble, licensing, rationales, image deletion requests, and the like, this probably would be ok. But, as I remember, someone tried to do that, and ended up getting the image deleted because it faintly read "Metroid Prime 3: Corruption" in the background.  That sort of thing will get the image deleted, and this is the true question: Is it absolutely, positively, 100% needed?  This is the question Wikipedia policy asks, and if the answer is no, uploading of an image for that purpose is frowned upon.  Any simple mistakes which would seem trivial to you or me could spell a legal disaster for the Wikimedia Foundation.
 * -- FastLizard4 (Talk•Links•Sign) 04:56, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration. Plenty of websites use copyrighted media, under a claim of fair use, with far less written justification than we do, and receive no legal trouble for it. But Wikipedia is the "free" encyclopedia, so anything that's not free on our pages requires proof that there is need of it, and that's why the fair-use guidelines are so strict. --Herald Alberich 19:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Not really. There was almost some legal trouble against the Wikimedia Foundation for a copyright violation on the page Trekkie.  It's really a lot more important and critical then you think it is.  The reason: Wikipedia is ranked #9 on Alexa Internet.  This makes it a larger target for "legal-watchers" from various organizations.  Also, just because one person jumps off a cliff, are you going to do the same?
 * -- FastLizard4 (Talk•Links•Sign) 22:10, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Wrong time line / Article adjustments
OK, I have many issues with this article. I don't know what sources you got them from, but unless they are directly from Nintendo, I find this article to be inaccurate. According to logs through out Metroid Prime, Planet Zebes has already been destroyed. If planet Zebes is already destroyed how is it possible for Metroid Prime to take place between Metroid and Metroid 2: The Return of Samus? Explain that please.

Also, the grapple beam was not introduced until Super Metroid, which also makes an appearence at the beginning of Metroid Prime and throughout the game. Then there is the issue of the changes of ships. In Metroid Fusion, Samus Aran has a new starship borrowed from the GFS for her mission in the game, because her ship was wrecked after the X had invaded her suit/body. Technically speaking, Metroid Fusion should take place between Metroid Prime 2: Echos and Metroid Prime 3: Corrution, because in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, Samus yet again has a different starship. Otherwise, Metroid Fusion is the odd one out. Finally there is the issue of Ridley. Ridley is brought back as Meta Ridley in Metroid Prime. And in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, he is brought back as Omega Ridley. How do you explain him being "plain old Ridley" in Super Metroid, if these enhancements were the case. Not to mention the fact that that Ridley makes an appearance in Metroid Fusion. Which again, I re-iterate, technically according to those cues, Metroid Fusion, could technically take place between Metroid Prime 2 and Metroid Prime 3.

There are other ideas I could cover, but these are the major issues I see as good indicators that this article is inaccurate. Anyways, if you can answer those questions, I will gladly accept the Samus Aran article for what it is. Otherwise, I find this article to be biased and based on someones shoddy sources. The sources are right there to play. If you take enough time, to absorb it all, you can put it together, that was always the great mystery of Metroid, was piecing the time line together, otherwise I feel that this article should be taken down for the fact that its sources are fan made, not creator made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RocmanRaz (talk • contribs) 01:20, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thats the thing. If you scroll down to the nice, convenient "References" section, you will see the sources.  Take a look and decide for yourself.  Oh, and, what logs say that Zebes is destroyed in Metroid Prime?  Because, according to the Metroid timeline (from Nintendo), the Prime series does, in fact, occur between Metroid/Metroid Zero Mission and Metroid II: Return of Samus, followed by Super Metroid, then Metroid Fusion.  And of course, this is sourced (see Metroid (series)).  And, on the note of the logs, couldn't I say, "technically speaking," that mistakes/lies are occasionally placed in logs?  Also, take into account that Super Metroid and the other 2D games were made years before the Prime games were, the creators probably weren't anticipating the Prime series to be inserted between Metroid and Metroid II.  On note of the ships, something related is that the USS Enterprise from Star Trek had at least 7 incarnations, some with no explanation or background.  There's really nothing so surprising there.  Ships would be constantly refitted to have new weapons, better engines, and the like.  Well, that's my two cents,  FastLizard4  (Talk•Links•Sign) 01:47, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

That's all and well. But quite a few of those reference links have 404 errors. Also, if you go to the Metroid: Zero Mission Official Homepage, they have a timeline there. On another note, we are not talking about Star Trek, I don't care about the Enterprise or its 7 incarnations. Samus ship is clearly destroyed at the beginning of Fusion and replaced. Now technically it can't be proven that Samus took the ship she acquired in Fusion and returned it to the GFS (thats all hypothesis), but CLEARLY Samus has a new ship in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, where I might add, you do not board the ship from the top, but rather from underneath. Which is another supporting point that says the Metroid Prime games can not take place between Metroid and Metroid 2. Another note, how can you say that "on the note of the logs, couldn't I say, "technically speaking," that mistakes/lies are occasionally placed in logs?" If there is a log in Metroid Prime talking about (as someone stated in discussion) "One of the Federation Trooper logs in Prime 2 states that "there is no way a lone human could destroy Zebes,"" how is it possible for there to be knowledge of the Planet Zebes being destroyed IF Metroid Prime takes place between Metroid and Metroid 2? Please explain that, and don't tell me someone was writing about the future in their logs. The proof is in the games, not outdated resources on the internet. But I have to agree w/the one guy in discussion, this is all based on theory, everything. Until there is an official "Guide to Samus' life" (as Xenongamer put it) its all just theory. Perhaps this article should discuss Samus Aran and not the timeline of her adventures, not to say the timeline is the majority of the article. Focus on the idea that she was the first female video game heroine. And about her origins w/the Chozo, and her power-ups. Not so much on fallible timeline based on numerous sources that say different things. That's my four cents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.195.3.100 (talk) 12:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Much of this is a moot discussion. The timeline as it's shown on Wikipedia is Nintendo's official timeline, and this was validated by the Japanese Zero Mission site (NOT the American; US sites have been known to get info wrong... I'm looking at you, Legend of Zelda) and the demo disc of Prime 2.  The only real issue here is that these references/links are correctly displayed on Metroid (series) but not on Samus Aran; somebody needs to fix that. Arrowned 19:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And to clarify something, my Star Trek point was a bad example for something I just though of: the reason why the changing ship designs is not abnormal is, as in the Star Trek example, you would want to "refit" your existing technology, whatever it may be, whether it be starships, tanks, guns, artillery, and military or technological device. For example, what good would it do to use a 1911 WWI battletank in Iraq?  What good would it to to use a Spitfire against an F-16?  That's what I am getting at.
 * -- FastLizard4 (Talk•Links•Sign) 02:41, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

girl with weight of hte world on her shoulders
Is Samus sometimes referred to as the "girl with the weight of the world on her shoulders?" For some reason I thought I saw that somewhere. It's also shown in the video "Haloid," but I'm pretty sure I saw that from some official nintendo thing. Drewboy64 03:44, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Super Metroid: Samus Gunship
AVKent882 02:32, 12 October 2007 (UTC) A.V. Kent You know it's amazing how much Samus' gunship looks like the alien spaceship in Flight of the Navigator (1986)...

Anyone agree?

Doesn't matter, isn't notable. Also opinion. DurinsBane87 02:47, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Samus vs. Master Chief info
Who thinks that the recent character battle on IGN between Samus and Master Chief should be at least briefly mentioned in the article? The fact that Samus beat Master Chief seems to me like a significant indication of how popular and well-established she is compared to a character who is well-known yet a relative newcomer.Abodos 05:19, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Might be worth mentioning. In this case, it would probably be best to mention the event in both this article and in Master Chief's article. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 06:13, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * IGN has character battles all the time. I've never seen the winners get posted on wikipedia before. I don't see why it's really that notable. I mean, Halo's really popular, but Metroid has been really popular for 20 years. DurinsBane87 07:13, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Evolution of character
Would there be any value in documenting how the character's appearance has changed? I don't mean modifications in the rendering of the power suit, Fusion notwithstanding, many of those can be attributed to improving graphics.

I'm referring to the visual portrayal of the character herself, as she has been portrayed over the series, increasingly exploring the woman beneath the suit. Mario, Sonic, Link, and other iconic characters have been largely defined for a while, but with her armor limiting our view of her, and only visible for the percentage of gamers who complete the hardest challenges, her changes have both taken longer and changed more dramatically.

Subjectively, I know many older gamers, introduced to Samus as a brunette/green haired woman in the original, have been surprised at the bright blonde version appearing in Smash Bros. Brawl, a version established in the most recent GBA game, and which is possibly going to be her commonly accepted appearance. But I've researched a bit, and while the GBA games have really defined her appearance this way, especially with the increasing entire 'reward' illustrations showing her as blonde, this has been supported increasingly in the Metroid:Prime series.

1.The original game, in which her gender was a surprise for the ending, established her as brunette (the ending)/ green (the easter egg allowing you to play with the suit off). 2.Metroid II, in black and white, gave the world its first really detailed look at Samus. She sported a bellybutton-exposing tankini, as opposed to her NES bikini top. The more detailed look gave her actual facial features. The black and white obscured the hair color, though. 3.Super Metroid shook things up a bit, with Samus gaining significant musculature, as opposed to the straight glamour shot of Metroid II (the pixilated bikini pose from the first game is graphically sparse in conveying style) and shifting her to a dark blonde/possibly orange-ish redhead.

Years of gaming silence without a Metroid game, then...

4. The Gamecube version, Metroid Prime, with a more realistic-looking world, gives a head shot, with definite tied-back blonde hair and classical facial features.

5. The GBA games of Metroid Fusion and Metroid:Zero provide several illustrations of her complete physique, and as a bright, almost bleached, blonde. Her hair has been lengthened to mid-back length, (possibly more noticably in the Japanese release endshots?), and she has traded in her bikini bottoms for 'short shorts,' retaining the more midriff-revealing halter top from Super Metroid.

Metroid:Zero Mission also introduces her appearance in the "Zero suit," a light blue, form fitting bodysuit worn under the armor. For the first time, we see Samus with a ponytail (obscured in the headshot in Prime). All of the 'reward art' has her with this hairstyle (locks of hair framing her face, but the rest of her hair tied back). This look was rendered into 3D for Prime:2 almost exactly, and appears to be the standard for the upcoming Smash Bros. Brawl, as well.

(Subtle differences exist in Samus' appearance in the DS title Prime:Hunters, story-line-wise between Prime 1 and 2 - the hair is a little darker and in a simpler, more functional ponytail. Whether this look was tailored with regard for her other appearances timeline-wise is not clear.)

In summary, there is a clear evolution of the character's appearance (although 'evolution,' implying progress, may not be the right word for such a subjective field). There may be enough changes for conversation about possible significance or meaning in the character's design to be worthwhile, in which case these changes are important. Others may view these changes as the kind of fanboy minutia that Wikipedia needs to limit or ignore. Which is why I am posting this under 'discussion,' first.--70.95.226.180 02:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC) Amendment: If it is of use for discussion, although probably not citation, this website does an excellent job of showing the changes: http: // www. thisischris .com / feature / 2005 / samus.html --70.95.226.180 02:43, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Not first playable Nintendo female character
The article says: "Samus is considered the first playable female character in a Nintendo game."

This is wrong. "Vs. Ladies Golf" (copyright 1984) had players controlling a female golfer. "Volleyball" (copyright 1986) had a Women's team available, and was released 16 days before Metroid in Japan. --Dwedit 05:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * We should probably reword the sentence slightly, to: "Samus is widely considered the first significant playable female character...", since the Vs. Ladies Golf and Volleyball games didn't feature characters of any particular significance. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 22:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * What about Super Mario Bros. 2 with Princess Peach? --172.165.114.247 (talk) 14:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Late response, but SMB2 came out LONG after Metroid, and by that point there were other games around as well that had female playable characters in them. Peach's status as a first-time playable character is more relevant to the Super Mario Bros. universe than to Nintendo gaming or video gaming in general. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 23:25, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Beam and Suit Cruft
We're getting crufty again. We already deleted/transwiki'd the "Objects/Items in the Metroid Series" article, and now this article is starting to take on similar content - namely, the list of beams and suits. Do we really need to go into detail on each of Samus's individual weapons and armor suits? We can describe her beam and missile weaponry in a few sentences, mentioning that they are upgradeable in another sentence, and we can summarize the purpose of her suits without needing to outline each one. The Varia suit is arguably significant in its own right because of its general functionality and usefulness to the protagonist, and the Zero Suit is already mentioned in an appropriate manner, but if there's any need to go into detail on any of these, they should be described in their appropriate articles - for example, the Light and Dark suits only appear in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes.

Let's try to keep the cruft down, guys. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 22:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The only other thing I would mention is that the Varia suit's distinctive round shoulders were a by-product of the Game Boy's limited technology. (Since the GB didn't have any color, Nintendo was forced to alter the Varia Suit's design to make it appear different than the normal Power Suit.) This is significant, because from Super Metroid on, the Varia Suit has become Samus's "default" look.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by King Zeal (talk • contribs) 13:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that this is a good thing to include. But right now, the Beams and Suits sections are *REALLY* crufty and duplicate a lot of the content that we deleted and transwiki'd to WikiTroid months ago.  I cleaned up the Missiles section - let's see if we can get the rest of the article back in line with VGProj guidelines. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 08:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

She talks!
Samus has a few spoken lines in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. She says at least "try me" and "is that all?" when you use her taunts as Zero Suit Samus. Voiced by Jennifer Hale apparently. You guys might to reword a few parts of this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.234.206.177 (talk) 00:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Voiced by Alésia Glidewell actually, though that VA credit was removed from her site and thus has no proper route for sourcing at the moment. Something about this does need to be added to the article; the last time it was added, I reverted it, but only because I didn't agree with the placement.  I probably should've just moved it. Arrowned (talk) 00:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Jennifer Hale: Incorrect Credit?
I've looked through videos of the credits for the Metroid Prime games, and I haven't seen her name or Carren Learning anywhere. In addition, it's not listed in her video game roles on her website. Was there any actual documentation of her voicing Samus, because if not, the credit should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Batwing321 (talk • contribs) 12:45, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Talk:Samus Aran/Archive 1 EDIT: Annnd now that I have a Game Informer subscription and was finally able to check that article for myself, it turns out there's no mention of Metroid in it at all. Arrowned (talk) 12:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It wasn't in the article, it was mentioned in a sidebar in the magazine itself. - Saturn  Yoshi  THE VOICES 18:41, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Any scans available? Even if it's a mistake, it'd be good to see it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.143.192.239 (talk) 06:45, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The Guiness Book of World Records: Gamer's edition say that the voice actor is Jennifer Hale, too. (I think) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.163.117.13 (talk) 01:53, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

More Pictures?
I think a nice additon would be a few more pictures. A picture of her in her Power suit would be nice(one without huge shoulder pads), an image of a sidescrolling level of Super Metroid, an image of her in her zero-suit from the MP3 ending, and an image of seeing through her visor in a Metroid Prime game. --Timetobrawl 16:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Just because it would make the article 'look pretty' is not a valid reason to use images covered by someone else's copyright. See WP:FAIRUSE. 144.15.255.227 (talk) 22:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I am pretty sure atleast an image from a sidescroller type Metroid would be important, as samus spent a great deal of time in the 2D. Timetobrawl 19:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.205.171.192 (talk)
 * This is more in the direction we should take this convo. We need to figure out the best number of images the page should have (all your suggestions before would've made for eight images in a seven page article which is horribly cluttered), and then figure out which images would be most important to take up that number of spots.  At most, I say four: leave the Varia Suit image at the top, keep one of the ones of her suitless (we already have the ZM one; switching to the Prime 3 version isn't entirely necessary), and then one image each of in-action gameplay of a 2D game and a 3D one.  You could bump it to five images to leave the gunship picture in, but that's arguable IMO. Arrowned (talk) 01:23, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

We could replace the MP one of her with her helmet reoved of when she reoves her helmet in a MP3 ending sequence, which is a more recent representation.Timetobrawl 11:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.203.58.44 (talk)
 * Probably not a good idea. Because of the nature of the scenes where the Zero Suit appears in Prime 3, you're only ever going to find partial shots of her body.  The Zero Mission ending image currently in the article shows almost her entire body, which makes it the better option. Arrowned (talk) 18:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I remember a rather heated debate over on WT:VG a while back about what images we should use for various characters when multiple renderings exist. (For example, Link and Bowser both came up in that discussion, and both have had significant redesigns over their lifetimes.)  I'm not sure if we ever all agreed on which image to use as a general rule, but I argued that we should use the most recognizable/representative one for the infobox image, even if it's not necessarily the most recent.  In a couple of cases, I think we agreed that SSB Melee actually gave the most recognizable rendering even over the official games.  (Ice Climbers come to mind.) &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 18:40, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know that discussion was used for Pit's page as well. Going along that mentality, it would make the most sense to use her Brawl Zero Suit incarnation since it's recent enough to give a good idea of how it looks, plus the available images can be more easily fair-use'd (since it's available on a company website).  Then too, there's the fact that we could easily get a Brawl-based picture of her that's full size and not just showing partial body shots like Prime 3. Arrowned (talk) 01:06, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Ya know, we could use the image of her with her helmet off as seen in the MP3 ending, probably a more recent representation of her, and it is not a partial image. Timetobrawl 16:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * But you were arguing for an updated picture of her Zero Suit. A picture of her in the Varia Suit with the helmet off is useless as the only difference it shows from the giant Varia image at the top of the article is her head. Arrowned (talk) 01:19, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I am just trying to see if anything can be done to improve this article, I do not want nothing but another Zero suit image, I meant that with her unmasked in MP3 you could see her appearance. just a more recent version of the image of her unmasked from the first Metroid Prime. Also, should we think of getting a 2D action shot, as the 2nd dimension is where Samus has spent most her time. Timetobrawl 16:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Based on?
I was just reading the Ironman article when it hit me that Samus' armor bears a huge resembelence to Ironman's both in shape and color as well as being mounted with weapons and similar interfaces. Anybody know if Samus was based off of Ironman? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.24.105.30 (talk) 00:22, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The article says that she was directly based on Ellen Ripley, though Iron Man may have had some influence as well, along with Boba Fett (both Fett and Samus being planet-hopping armored bounty hunters with personal spaceships). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.165.114.247 (talk) 14:47, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Couldn't say I know for certain, but I think the appearance of Samus's body armor is coincidentally similar to Iron Man's. In order to add anything of this nature to the article, we'd need a reliable source that states that the developers/designers were inspired by that character. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 03:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

pronunciation
How do you pronounce "samus"? Is it sah-mus or sam-us? --Sphetr2 (talk) 13:18, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * According to the announcer and cheering crowd in Smash Bros., it's pronounced "Sam-us". King Zeal (talk) 14:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

And according to the Japanese, and the Greek, it's "sah-mus". I think the character's creators and the culture that created the name over one millenia ago know a bit better than the English-speaking narrator for a non-canon fighting game or the English-speaking crowd used only in the English release of said game. 70.48.218.136 (talk) 18:46, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Power Suit
Shouldn't we have a list of the different Power Suits? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.206.95.207 (talk) 01:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Nope. We've had a consensus for a while that lists of items (including variants of the Power Suit and their capabilities) are not encyclopedic, per project guidelines.  This article used to have a lot of items listed, and we also had a separate List of Items in the Metroid Series, which was a HUGE article full of listcruft.  That information is better suited for a gaming wiki, but it doesn't inherently help an average layman reader understand the game as a whole - it's information that is mostly interesting to people already familiar with the game and/or series.  Please see the guidelines page for more information. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 03:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Snapshots
Please consider adding this gallery as a list of relevant photos about Samus RyanTMulligan (talk) 16:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, the site is amusing enough, but I don't think we can use it for anything in this article. Sorry. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 21:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, okay well thank you for considering it. RyanTMulligan (talk) 22:10, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Category suggestions

 * Fictional characters who can move at superhuman speeds
 * Comments? - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:13, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Seems there is a reference to super speed on the article. If you consider that, and all of the other games she appears in, I'd say go for it. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 21:56, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I fail to see how that's anything more than trivia, honestly. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 23:19, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Excuse me? Since when are categories trivial? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 23:21, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's even stated in-game that as a child, w/o her Power Suit, she is significantly faster than the average human being, and much more so when she is able to use the Speed Booster. - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:26, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * That's fine, but that means her higher speed gets a mention in the article. My point about trivia was that I think the category itself is one of trivia.  Just because Samus is fast and some other characters are fast doesn't really mean there's a significant link between them, is there?  What does Samus have to do with Sonic the Hedgehog?  (And when you think about it, most video game characters can move at "superhuman" speeds anyway.) &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 23:31, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's clearly defined that she can move at superhuman speeds - at her max speed, she can tear through certain walls. And just because Sonic is a much faster character doesn't negate her very high speed. And regardless, like I said, her high speed is a matter of plot, not just gameplay. - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not debating that she's a fast character. I'm saying that I don't think we need a category to group together fast characters.  (Incidentally, I just cast a Delete vote in the CFD discussion on Category:Fictional characters with powered armor, which Samus is part of as well, and for similar reasons.) &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 23:50, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a common super ability that would illicit interest from people to find other characters with this ability. The powered armor category is on the CfD for being too general. - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:56, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And that's pretty much my argument on swiftness as well. You could easily argue that almost every video game character in existence would fit into that category, since "superhuman speed" is a common trait of most fictional characters.  You could even argue that Pac-Man fits in this category because he can turn corners at sharp 90-degree angles and exhibits no inertia.  Most video game characters are able to jump much higher than any real human can, and almost all of them exhibit stamina far outpacing even the world's best athletes.  Thus, "superhuman speed" would lend itself to a more general "superhuman abilities" category, which pretty much encompasses about 90% of fiction.  My point is that it's either going to be too broad a category, or too difficult to narrow down to something specific that Samus fits into and Pac-Man doesn't.  (I'm picking on Pac-Man and Sonic as arbitrary examples, btw, but not trying to say there's any special significance to them over anyone else.) &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 00:03, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not vague to say that Samus has superhuman speed, and it's not "comparable" to Pac-Man. Pac-Man goes quickly as a matter of gameplay, while the games specifically state Samus to be far more powerful and swifter than the average human even without her suit. We're not observing her gameplay, we're observing her plot, and as far as I recall, Pac-Man has never been stated to be fast, and even has other games to show that he is, for the most part, average human speed. - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * So the category really means "Fictional characters who are notable within their storylines for being faster than normal humans"? &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 00:08, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No? The category means "Fictional characters with superhuman speed". You're comparing the reasoning for saying Samus has superhuman speed to the reason that Pac-Man does (gameplay). Essentially, if Samus WEREN'T in a video game, the reasoning would be strong enough to warrant the category's inclusion. You can't use the gameplay or video game character point, because her being significantly faster than the average human is based on the plot of the game and her character, and does not regard in-game mechanics at all. Samus has the ability to run at superhuman speeds, this is stated in the game. I don't know where you're coming from with the humorous category name, but if Samus were in any other storyline (whose humans had an average human speed), she would still have superhuman speed. - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you're missing my point. I am not disputing the fact that Samus has superhuman speed, whether in her own universe or compared to anyone else's.  I never said that I disputed that.  If anything, this article could use more prose talking about that, since it's one of her most prominent points.  My point is that I don't think we need a category for characters with superhuman speed.  There are not very many characters who are notable for this particular trait.  Sonic the Hedgehog, Speedy Gonzales and The Flash are really the only other main characters that come to mind when I think "fictional characters who are notable for being fast".  I'm sure there are others, but my point is that I don't see how this trait of Samus's means that we need to link her to other characters that share this trait.  It's not in the same category as, say, female video game protagonists or fictional robot heroes.  And, notable as Samus's speed is, it's not her primary defining characteristic.  Adding her to this category may be good for people who look up Sonic and go "I wonder who else is a fast character... Oh, Samus Aran, I didn't realize that."  But at what point do we draw the line between relevance and trivia?  I think it's perfectly fine to talk about how she's faster than everyone around her in this article, as it pertains to the universe(s) she's in.  I'm just making the point that I think making categories to describe her traits (powered armor, superhuman speed, etc.) is stepping into matters of trivia, and I think that if we allow it, it's going to lead to further expansion of categories akin to what happened with List of items in the Metroid series. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 02:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Superman is a character with superhuman speed, and that isn't his defining trait, but he would get in the category regardless. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:44, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * But what's the point? Is Samus also classified as a superhero?  Would she qualify for a similar category, Fictional superheroes or what not?  How about "Characters with arm cannons", which Megaman fits into.  "Characters that wear skin-tight bodysuits" (Seven of Nine).  These are all traits that help distinguish Samus and contribute to her notability, and which are (or arguably deserve to be) mentioned in the article, but I doubt we'd add her to categories based on those traits.  In my opinion, superhuman speed isn't so special as to warrant that sort of category. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 05:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Being a superhero is completely irrelevant to having super speed. I mean, if you had to be a superhero to have super speed, Reverse-Flash is going to be pretty disappointed. And if a category of characters with arm cannons exists and that aspect of Samus is very important, then the category should be in the article. And if wearing a skin-tight body suit warrants a category and warrants mention, it should be included. Superman isn't defined by super-speed, but it is definitely an important aspect of the character. Samus is all-around a powerful person, and speed is a significant part of it. She's not fast through gameplay reasons like Pac-Man is, she's fast as a part of her plot - she was trained by an ancient alien race for a good part of her childhood and into adulthood on a planet with higher gravity, and she moves fast enough to leave "after-images" of herself, which is established in the plot. Simply put, just because it's not a defining aspect of her doesn't mean it's trivial information. If it's important enough to be discussed in the article, she can be in the category. Just because she's not as fast as The Flash, it does not mean that she does not have superhuman speed. - A Link to the Past (talk) 05:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * How about Category:Japanese superheroes? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 05:35, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Firstly, Sess, Samus isn't a "superhero" in the usual sense, not even amongst Japanese characters. "Fictional bounty hunters" fits her more than any other title/occupation.  As for the argument at hand, I agree with Kiefer on this.  Adding categories for every one of Samus's abilities seems kind of arbitrary, especially since her speed isn't even a factor in most of her games.  Super Metroid, Fusion, Zero Mission and Brawl aside, Samus's speed is not notable.  For that matter, Samus has far too many powers to start picking and choosing which ones to make categories for them.  What's stopping us from making categories with titles like "Fictional characters with":


 * Flamethrowers
 * Missile launchers
 * Enhanced leaping abilties
 * Electrical abilities
 * Adaptive abilities
 * Mimicking/absorption abilities
 * Freezing abilities
 * Evil doppelgangers
 * Human/alien physiology
 * Plasma weaponry
 * Androgynous appearance (in the first game at least)


 * . . . and the list can go on and on based on the sheer number of powers that Samus gains during the course of any given game.King Zeal (talk) 12:19, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

← As I said, I'm not opposed to mentioning the fact that she has these abilities, but I think that we're going to open ourselves up to a repeat of that dreaded Items article if we start creating and/or including categories of characters with seemingly arbitrary qualities. In some cases, we'll run into disagreement on what constitutes superhuman speed (or another subjective quality), much less whether that aspect is particularly notable. To make it more objective in this case, the category would need to somehow reflect that the aspect is actually notable within the character's storyline, and not just an observation one can make by seeing the character in action.

This is not to say that all categories like this are inappropriate. I personally don't think the "Fictional characters with powered armor" category is really necessary, but I think it's a better category than "...with superhuman speed", since there are a number of characters you can point to that are defined by and/or rely heavily on their armor (Megaman, Master Chief, etc.). Additionally, if Samus were classified as a superhero in the same vein as Superman, I'd agree with putting her in that category. But the important point is that these things need to be clearly defined, and as notable as Samus's speed is in relation to her storyline, I don't think it's one that we can apply equally to all other characters we might consider putting in that category. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 18:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Not sure if I understand why Samus shouldn't be added to the superhero cat. She's saves worlds doesn't she? How is her role any different than that of Son Goku, Astro Boy, Arale, or every encarnation of Ultraman? Sonic should also be included. Though it would be understandable if Samus was an antihero (like Punisher). Anything I'm missing? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 18:52, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * That's a tough one. Samus qualifies under a relatively loose definition of "superhero" - one who can accomplish superhuman feats and who fights on the good side.  But the more widely accepted definition I've seen applied to the term seems to narrow that range down to characters who have superhuman powers with no apparent explanation (like the ability to fly unaided, incredible strength, the ability to shoot lasers out their eyes, etc.), whereas most of Samus's abilities are explained by her Power Suit and accessories.  (Only her exceptional speed seems to be innate.)  But I'm sure this has been a topic of broad debate for a long time (what constitutes a "superhero"?), so I doubt we're likely to answer that one here. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 21:08, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * And to add on to that: I know that many also consider ordinary humans with extraordinary technology to be superheroes as well. If that's the definition that's accepted in this context, then Samus would certainly qualify.  But I also suspect that so would a ton of other characters, such that this fact may no longer be considered notable. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 21:11, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You don't need superpowers to be a superhero. Batman heavily relies on his implements, as do Zorro, the Phantom, the Destroyer, Captain America, and Phantom Rider. I think it's safe to say that Samus could be classified as a superhero. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 21:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * See, I'd disagree. I've never seen Zorro referred to as a superhero, I've only seen Batman referred to as a superhero in connection with the Justice League and the DC comics line, and as an icon, but not as one with superhuman powers or abilities.  (Just lots of cool gadgets and technology.)  Captain America has been classified there tho, and aside from exceptional (but not necessarily ridiculous) strength, he does rely on his armaments.  So it's difficult to say exactly what defines a character as a superhero.  But even in comics circles where people are fanatical about these characters, I've seen big debates arise about which ones are really superheroes, and which ones are just conveniently lumped in to that category whether they deserve it or not.  As far as I've seen, it's truly a matter of debate there.
 * Back to the first suggested category about superhuman speed: It's easier in this case to categorize Samus as being faster than normal, but my original argument stands: I see that as something notable for Samus's article, but I don't see that particular ability as deserving of a categorization, for the reasons I stated above. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 23:24, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Looks like you're right, it appears this conforms with what you said. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 23:41, 29 August 2008 (UTC)