Talk:San Juan, Puerto Rico

Hurricane Maria
I believe you should add for example that Hurricane Maria was the "deadliest natural disaster in over a century". I also believe that you should add the fact that a little less than 3,000 people were killed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jafi laffi (talk • contribs) 00:16, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 31 October 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Opposers cited WP:USPLACE, though the lone supporter did argue that this could be a misinterpretation of the guideline. Some of those on the oppose side also argued that San Juan, PR is not ahead of other items on the dab page by a large enough margin to be considered the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. (closed by non-admin page mover) estar8806 (talk) ★ 00:55, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

– This is clearly the primary topic for this entity. The web search results show that the Puerto Rican city dominates the search results. I understand there are other cities named San Juan, but I think this is the most notable one that bears that name. Interstellarity (talk) 00:28, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
 * San Juan, Puerto Rico → San Juan
 * San Juan → San Juan (disambiguation)
 * Oppose and speedy close per WP:USPLACE, which is explicitly stated as applying to US territories as well. If you wish to deprecate USPLACE (a WP:PERENNIAL proposal) or restrict it to US states only, you can propose it on WT:NCGN, but we shouldn't be opening individual RMs that contradict the guidelines. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:48, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This falls under WP:USPLACE. Rreagan007 (talk) 04:04, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. As current consensus, WP:USPLACE also applies US territories, including Puerto Rico and the four other permanently inhabited US territories. As stated on WP:PERENNIAL, one of the arguments for keeping WP:USPLACE is that "Appending the state is common usage and sufficiently natural that it may be considered part of American English". And of course, Puerto Rico articles should be written in American English under WP:TIES since it is a US territory. In addition, applying the WP:USPLACE guideline that references cities listed in the AP Stylebook: take a recently published Associated Press news article like this one, and it begins with "San Juan, Puerto Rico", not just "San Juan". Zzyzx11 (talk) 04:51, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
 * https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=San_Juan indicates that last month, there were 628 visits of San Juan, and 139 outgoing clickstreams to the proposed primary topic could be identified, so even if it's at the top of the list it's not likely to be sought more often than all the other San Juan topics when a reader searches for this term. We should try putting it at the top per MOS:DABCOMMON to see if this affects the statistics. --Joy (talk) 11:05, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose based on the sheer number of topics sharing this title, some of which are regionally quite significant places. BD2412  T 01:11, 1 November 2023 (UTC)


 * How about rather than move this page, we could move the dab page and have San Juan redirect here? Interstellarity (talk) 18:53, 1 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I can see where the proposal's coming from, but it's by no means as clear-cut as (e.g.) San Francisco or Santo Domingo. On account of the Argentine places (city and province) in particular. Moscow Mule (talk) 02:32, 2 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support per nominator's argument that San Juan, Puerto Rico, is the primary topic.
 * The argument regarding WP:USPLACE applying here is faulty because the naming convention at WP:USPLACE that "According to the comma convention, articles on populated places IN the United States are typically titled "Placename, State" when located within a state or "Placename, Territory" in US territories", is itself faulty: the convention uses "territories" implying UNincorporated territories, yet UNincorporated territories are, by definition, not IN the United States, making the statement at WP:USPLACE self-contradictory. That is, for a territory to be IN the United States it has to be part of it, i.e., it has to be INcorporated into the United States, which the territories are not. The United States consists only of the 50 States and DC. The territories (or, more precisely, the "UNincorporated" territories) are possessions of the United States but aren't part of it.   Mercy11 (talk) 02:44, 2 November 2023 (UTC)


 * That is the some of the most egregious wikilawyering I have ever seen. Since USPLACE mentions "Placename, Territory" explicitly as a convention to follow, the clear intent is to cover territories. -- King of ♥ ♦</b><b style="color:black"> ♣</b><b style="color:black"> ♠</b> 05:31, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
 * USPLACE is not universal when we have a primary topic. Look at Pittsburgh, Miami, Dallas, Los Angeles, Dededo largest city in Guam, San Diego, etc... USPLACE take precedent if the place is not the primary topic. Otherwise it's simply whether consensus is gained. No matter the outcome here, San Juan, Puerto Rico absolutely should be placed at the top of the disambiguation page. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:34, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Weak Oppose - based on I'm not convinced it is the primary topic with so many other placenames. WP:USPLACE really doesn't help because that really only matters if the placename isn't the primary topic. As mentioned above Pittsburgh, Miami, Dallas, Los Angeles, Dededo largest city in Guam, San Diego are primary topics and have no state or territory mentioned. It's simply whatever consensus is gained by wikipedia editors. While I'm not convinced that the Puerto Rico city is the primary topic, I do firmly believe that San Juan, Puerto Rico should be at the absolute top of the disambiguation page. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:01, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
 * If you read USPLACE carefully, you'll see that certain designated "major cities" on the AP Stylebook are explicitly excluded, which includes Pittsburgh, Miami, Dallas, Los Angeles, and San Diego. Dededo was decided as a result of a one-off IAR consensus at RM; however, as it stands, territories are included in USPLACE, so you can participate in Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names) if you want to change the general rule. -- <b style="color:red">King of ♥</b><b style="color:red"> ♦</b><b style="color:black"> ♣</b><b style="color:black"> ♠</b> 11:26, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
 * But those are excluded because of simple consensus. The rule is not hardfast. There are a bazillion Dallas's so we simply had enough editors that wanted it to be alongside no state. The same could easily happen to San Juan just as it did to Dededo, Honolulu, Pago Pago, Fagatogo, Saipan, San Francisco. Actually when it comes to US territories and their capitals and largest cities, San Juan is weird that it isn't at its own article. Even if it isn't at the non-state location, you have things like Rapid City, South Dakota where "Rapid City" redirects to directly there. Same with Baton Rouge redirecting to Baton Rouge, Louisiana. San Juan could easily be done the same way. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:07, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
 * We want to avoid conflating two questions. The first one is: Is San Juan, Puerto Rico the primary topic of "San Juan"? The second one is: Assuming no ambiguity, is "San Juan" or "San Juan, Puerto Rico" the preferred title? If it is not the primary topic, then the article will be titled "San Juan, Puerto Rico" period, regardless of what USPLACE says. If it is the primary topic, then it will be titled "San Juan, Puerto Rico" (with a primary redirect from "San Juan") if we follow USPLACE, and otherwise "San Juan" if we don't follow USPLACE.
 * By the way, the naming of Honolulu and San Francisco was not decided by simple consensus, but a lengthy RfC-style process in 2008: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements)/Archive 19.
 * For the territorial cities, I don't have a strong preference on the merits, but we should either make practice match policy or policy match practice. -- <b style="color:red">King of ♥</b><b style="color:red"> ♦</b><b style="color:black"> ♣</b><b style="color:black"> ♠</b> 22:45, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree on your first paragraph. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:06, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose Per WP:USPLACE, which absolutely applies to US territories. I do not believe SJ, PR is overwhelmingly the primary topic either; WikiNav says only 50% of clicks from the dab page were to here in August and 66% in September. Reywas92Talk
 * do note that those percentages are out of the sum of identified outgoing clicks. There's also the filtered requests which are not shown, which is a long tail that has potential with this long of a list. There's also the difference between incoming and outgoing which isn't calculated in because we don't know what happened to those readers, did they not want to click through, did they not find what they were looking for, were some of them actually bots, or here because of a misclick or typo, etc. --Joy (talk) 09:59, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose U.S. bias in selecting the PT of "San Juan", If you were Filipino, you wouldn't say that. And the Philippines speak English while Puerto Rico uses Spanish. And in Spanish, Argentina's is pretty prominent. -- 65.92.247.90 (talk) 11:52, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

followup to move discussion
Cf. Talk:San Juan. --Joy (talk) 17:40, 10 January 2024 (UTC)