Talk:San Pietro Alli Marmi

Educational Project Page
This page is part of an Educational Project by students of LIUC, Italy, with a course page at: https://outreachdashboard.wmflabs.org/courses/LIUC_-_Universit%C3%A0_Cattaneo/Digital_Technology_(Autumn_2023)/home. The users of the group are new to the Wikipedia platform, have completed Training for Students, and are learning to edit following Wikipedia rules. They are open to any advice on improvements of the page in conformity to Wikipedia requirements and guidelines, and any help useful for the enhancement of the page will be gladly accepted. The student Usernames are:

Limelightangel (talk) 20:14, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Eunjikim17
 * MARL98
 * MatCa05
 * AleBone21
 * LIUCLisa6
 * ALVISC26

Indicative Resources
There are a wealth of resources that include relevant facts on this topic. As indicative examples:


 * Google Scholar contains articles in both English and Italian on St. Peter of Eboli and the church. Reference all journal articles correctly using the Cite > Journal template correctly, completing as many of the relevant template fields as possible (e.g. authors, title, journal name, dates, page numbers, etc.). See Help:Referencing_for_beginners


 * Google Books contains good sources on the topic. Search within the relevant search results to find the relevant book sections, and reference all books correctly using the Cite > Book template, completing as many of the relevant template fields as possible (e.g. author, title, publisher, ISBN, edition, pages, etc.).  See Help:Referencing_for_beginners

You will need to search these and other sources to consider variations in spelling when you search, including Church of San Petro alli Marmi, Bascilica of St. Peter Eboli, St. Peter of Eboli, etc. This also requires a consistent format for the topic across all the draft page content. Limelightangel (talk) 10:51, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Linking
See: Manual_of_Style/Linking Limelightangel (talk) 10:50, 19 November 2023 (UTC) Limelightangel (talk) 18:14, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Understand what 'overlinking' is e.g. link out to Italy.
 * Understand the conventions for referencing non-English sources, and avoid 'cut and paste' from these and the English sources. Check in the Manual of style or search Help. See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style
 * Note that there is no existing page on St. Peter of Eboli, and that the basicilica is not mentioned on the page on Eboli. There is a wide range of potentially relevant pages to link in and link out to from this draft page.
 * fix the link out in red to Guglielmo d'Altavilla.  Links out can only go to English pages.
 * correct the spelling of the link out to 'benedictines'
 * 'Salerno' is a duplicate link. Links out are used for the first occurence of the linked word and not then duplicated. Check for other identical links on the page before adding duplicates. See: Manual_of_Style/Linking


 * Everything should be fixed AleBone21 (talk) 17:23, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Fixed any type of overlinking MatCa05 (talk) 16:40, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Would be pleased to get some feedback from an experienced Wikipedia author regarding the linked categories at the end of this draft page. Right now it's challenging to find the right balance between categories and subcategories. Already considered the information provided in the editing guideline Categories, lists, and navigation templates. MARL98 (talk) 17:49, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Referencing
Limelightangel (talk) 18:28, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * the entire text under History has no references.
 * claims that 'some claim' and 'according to others' need references to support any opposing views.


 * Added the references to History.
 * -- AleBone21 (talk) 17:22, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Corrected the errors related to the references on the history part AleBone21 (talk) 15:24, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Layout and Structure
Based on the topic of the page, it makes sense to use the existing Infobox template for monasteries. See for further details Template:Infobox monastery. MARL98 (talk) 19:09, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

It would be a good idea to add a map in the lead section. ALVISC26(talk) 12:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Would it make sense to add a map that shows more in detail the territory of Campania and specifically where Eboli is located? (talk) 13:09, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Given the content of the paragraph about the crypt, it could be a good idea inserting there the part about the altar as well.

Limelightangel (talk) 14:59, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * section on Architecture includes history related to the church, crypt, etc. Either have sections on the various buildings, including sub-sections on their respective history and architecture, or have two sections on history and architecture, with the relevant content in sub-sections on the different buildings.


 * Thank you. Probably the first option (to have sections on the various building with subsections on their history and architecture) is clearer and would fit in well with the topic LIUCLisa6 (talk) 15:48, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Changed the structure of the page LIUCLisa6 (talk) 16:33, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The written content still doesn't follow the structure of the page indicated by the respective main section headers. Despite a general section about the architecture of the complex, the convent as well as the church section include an independent text about their architecture. The same is the case for the history of the church.
 * To improve readability and generally the orientation on the page, I personally would suggest to move the named sections to the respective main sections and add subheadings for the described building. This is approach is also used on other pages about basilicas like Basilica of Saint Paul Outside the Walls.
 * However, the structure proposed by @LIUCLisa6 has also its advantages but needs to be fully applied on the page.


 * MARL98 (talk) 11:01, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The structure suggested by @Limelightangel (sections on various buildings, including sub-sections on their respective history and architecture) has been fixed. Now it has been fully applied to the page, as you suggested @MARL98 LIUCLisa6 (talk) 19:42, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Potential Sources
On Google Books there are 2 books that nominate the Basilica of St. Peter alli Marmi as an important tourist stop. Could they be considered as potential sources?

• "Atti del ... Convegno di studi umbri" Volume 6, Numero 1

• "Italia del sud" Di Touring club italiano · 2004 LIUCLisa6 (talk) 17:24, 9 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The first book could be a very good source, also the second one has the potential to be a reliable source ALVISC26 (talk) 19:09, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you LIUCLisa6 (talk) 07:35, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Images
Does it makes sense to add an image of the epigraph on the historical part of the article?

--AleBone21 (talk) 10:57, 21 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Good idea LIUCLisa6 (talk) 18:32, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you AleBone21 (talk) 12:21, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It would surely complete the paragraph. ALVISC26 (talk) 21:18, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks for replying AleBone21 (talk) 12:21, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Would suggest, that for the architecture section pictures from the "Catalogo generale den Beni Culturali" should be used, because their pictures seem to be published under the CC-BY 4.0 licence. This makes it relatively easy to use them for this page. Downside is, that there are only limited pictures of the location available. MARL98 (talk) 10:33, 5 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your suggestion, an email was sent to the publisher of the website. ALVISC26 (talk) 12:00, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Grammar & Style
Limelightangel (talk) 18:17, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 'Due to the fact that' is redundant and inappropriate style.
 * 'the historicians'
 * 'never founded the exact date '
 * 'in which the church was first started being constructed.'
 * redundant & inappropriate style: ' On one hand,' 'on the other hand,'
 * 'some claim that the works began around the 1076-1080 years, period in which'
 * 'works instead started'
 * the following short section has 11 errors, highlighted here in bold: If the date in which the basilica's works started is still nowadays a debate between the historicians, the year in which it was completed is completly certain. As a matter of fact, a dedicatory plaque inside the church demonstrates with an inscription in Latin that the works ended up in 1159. Once that the Basilica was finally built, it was commited to the benedictines until the 1557. See: Manual_of_Style
 * check the conventions on when to use bold. See: Manual_of_Style/Text_formatting


 * Thanks for the advices. Most of the parts should be correct now.
 * -- AleBone21 (talk) 17:21, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
 * finished to correct eventual grammatical error in the page MatCa05 (talk) 16:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Talk page style
Note the guidelines on Talk page use, including style, structuring the discusions and signing all posts:Help:Talk_pages. Avoid the personal tense where possible ('I', 'we') and inappropriate language ('good afternoon everyone'). Talk is visible to other editors, so it needs to be clear who is saying what, and 'we' will mean nothing to them. To sign posts you can use the 1 click option below the editor space, or simply add the 4 '~' symbols manually. You can edit Talk pages to correct your content. Limelightangel (talk) 18:20, 20 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your explanation.
 * -- AleBone21 (talk) 17:21, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Lead Section
The 'lead section' needs to be longer and establish notability for the topic. avoid duplicating content here later in the page, and see the lead sections on similar pages. The summary introduction or 'lead section' is explained at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section Limelightangel (talk) 14:48, 24 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the advice LIUCLisa6 (talk) 15:30, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

History Section
"Since the basilica was built c. 1000 years ago, there are different controversies regarding the year when the Basilica's construction began. Some historians claim that the works started between the 1076-1080 years, period when Roberto il Guiscardo was at the throne of the city of Salerno; according to other sources, the works were instead guided by William of the Principate some years before.
 * There are c.22 errors in this brief section, including grammar, tense, use of dates, overlinking and missing sources:

A dedicatory plaque inside the church demonstrates with an inscription in Latin that the works were concluded in 1156.[1]Once the Basilica was finally built, it was commited to The Benedictines until the 1557.

On the 1743 the abbey became a propriety of "collegio dei cinesi", directed by Matteo Ripa, until the 1807. From the year 1886, the friars of The Order of Friars Minor Capuchin are the owners of the complex that includes the Basilica of St. Peter Alli Marmi. In 1929, the ceiling of the central and left-side aisles of the church collapsed with their columns; the capitols were the only part that was been rescued after that event." Limelightangel (talk) 14:59, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Errors already identified here have not been addressed.
 * There is significant historical information omitted.


 * Thank you for the advices AleBone21 (talk) 11:18, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Changed and corrected the structure and the grammatical errors. The references will be added soon. AleBone21 (talk) 12:22, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Use of quotations
Note the conventions on quotations and Non-English quotes, and translate and format better the two latin quotations which are otherwise unclear to most English readers. See: Manual_of_Style Limelightangel (talk) 14:59, 24 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Ok! Thank you AleBone21 (talk) 12:19, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The quotations have been formatted better, the translation is about to be added. ALVISC26 (talk) 11:36, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Does it make sense to create a table with the quotation on the left side and the respective paraphrase on the right ? LIUCLisa6 (talk) 19:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)


 * It could fit the structure of the page. ALVISC26 (talk) 19:08, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Linking
See: Manual_of_Style/Linking Limelightangel (talk) 15:03, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Note the extensive feedback on Linking on this Talk page.
 * Understand what 'overlinking' is e.g. link out to Italy.
 * There remains extensive issues with overlinking and duplicate linking (at least 7).
 * The link out to St. Peter comes far too late on a page on this topic.


 * corrected the overlinking related to the words: columns and Salerno AleBone21 (talk) 15:25, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * corrected the overlinking related to the words: churchyard and groin vaults LIUCLisa6 (talk) 16:35, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Added the link out to St. Peter in the lead section ALVISC26 (talk) 11:37, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Additional feedback, 24/11/23
Limelightangel (talk) 15:11, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * the page needs an Infobox. See: Template:Infobox_monastery for 'rules' and examples when using this.
 * the page needs a range of relevant and acceptable images and image captions, formatted with the relevant section text for them
 * the page needs an acceptably sources map of the buildings showing the relationship between them
 * the header for Sources is irrelevant
 * the page will need See Also and External Links sections. Understand the differences in their use. see: Help:Link
 * the extensive sources on Scholar can be used to identify facts with acceptable sources. Italian sources can be used but not just 'copy/pasted' and translated.  This is still plagiarism.
 * inconsistency in grammar e.g. 'basilica' vs. 'Basilica'
 * the location of the African museum and other description of the layout is not relevant to Architecture, and needs a different section
 * the latin quotes under Church and Crypt both require a translation and/or better formating
 * conventions on the use of bold and italics have not been consistently followed. check the conventions - See: Manual_of_Style/Text_formatting
 * see extensive feedback on this Talk page on grammar and style. See: Manual_of_Style
 * ongoing repetitive and basic grammar and style issues e.g. 'that was been rescued'; 'until the 1807'; 'between the 1076-1080 years'; 'period when'; 'The Bendictines'; 'until the 1807'; 'are the owners of the complex'; 'towering bell tower'; 'one reaches a vestibule'; 'view at the internal cloister'; 'correspond the lateral bodies'; 'fortunately'; 'begin the liberation of the church'; 'decree of supression'; 'offer information'; 'except most part of'; 'However'; 'fell in love with the land'; 'continuously being built'; 'october';
 * sections of text have no references, including whole section on Altar and much of the content on Church
 * do the Convent and church have specific names?


 * Fixed the inconsistency regarding 'basilica' and 'Basilica'. The content about the African Museum has been moved to the lead section. ALVISC26 (talk) 11:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * thank you for the feedback, the majority of the issues should be solved now (added an infobox, added relevant images, eliminated the header for Sources, added the See Also and External Links sections, fixed grammar mistakes, fixed the quotes and added references) LIUCLisa6 (talk) 15:26, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Review 4/12/23

 * the page needs the addition of correct See Also, External links and Categories. See:
 * 1) Help:Categories
 * 2) External_links
 * 3) Manual_of_Style/Layout

Limelightangel (talk) 14:40, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Gallery: See Image_use_policy. With only 2 images the Gallery is not necessary.
 * These and other images are better used adjacent to the relevant text sections to improve and support the large blocks of text e.g. Cloister and bell tower images with text on cloister, bell tower, etc.
 * image captions need to be better, and include what the image is of and where it is - these images reside on WikiCommons, not this page, and the captions on the page need to be clearer.
 * the 'other names' in the info. box is different to and not mentioned in the main text
 * the four latin quotes remain untranslated and could be better formatted e.g. '"sancti petri apostoli quod situm est foris et castelum evuli." The exhibit of the latin plaque also needs a supporting translation See: Quotations
 * multiple duplicate links out (one at least 3 times).
 * references: not all non-English sources are indicated as such in the references; missing authors, publishers and dates
 * structure: uncertainties on foundation date belong in History, not the lead section.
 * style: 'today'; 'hints at the'; 'it implies that'; 'one reaches'; 'fortunately'; 'but';
 * missing sources: the entire lead section has no references.
 * check conventions on dates/mumbers in the MOS e.g. for '15.000 volumes.'. See: Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers
 * inconsistencies: 'Bascilica', 'basilica'; 'S.Berniero', 'Saint Berniero';
 * grammar: 'completation'; 'Giovanni Luca De Luca between 1564 and 1578 (son of Giovanni Luca de Magistro).'; 'the African museum, established by missionary friars, and the church.'; 'in the access square to the churchyard there is'; 'to begin the liberation of the church'; 'so reconstruction wasn’t impossible, except most part '; 'the oil that freezed because of the cold thawed and kept on falling';
 * content: limited on history, with large gaps in chronology; the History stops in 1930, with nothing on the past 93 years nor a sub-section on its current situation.
 * overlinking: friars;
 * check and consistently apply conventions on the use of bold and italics. See: Manual_of_Style/Text_formatting
 * the following text needs explicitly linking to the topic or will be removed as it relates to existing pages: 'Norman architecture is characterized by its massive proportions in simple geometries, the masonry with small sculpted aggregates, and hooked brackets around the arches.'
 * do the Crypt, Convent and Church have specific names that can be used in the relevant section titles? 'Crypt of St. Berniero' or 'Crypt'?


 * Fixed the structure, added sources to the lead section, fixed the overlinking friars LIUCLisa6 (talk) 18:33, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Changed the 'other names' in info box. Fixed grammar mistakes in the paragraph dedicated to the crypt. The title of the section dedicated to the crypt has been changed to 'Crypt of St. Berniero'. ALVISC26 (talk) 11:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the recommendations. AleBone21 (talk) 12:35, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Corrected some of the grammar errors in the "History" paragraph. AleBone21 (talk) 13:01, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The Convent and the Church don't have specific names, they are just called as "Convent/Church of the Basilica of St. Peter alli Marmi" LIUCLisa6 (talk) 19:58, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The following text 'Norman architecture is characterized by its massive proportions in simple geometries, the masonry with small sculpted aggregates, and hooked brackets around the arches.' as been removed because there wasn't an explicitly linking to the topic LIUCLisa6 (talk) 19:59, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Captions of images have been modified and improved, images have been moved in order to support paragraphs. Latin quotes have been translated and formatted correctly. References have been fixed. ALVISC26 (talk) 22:00, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Review 11/12/23

 * c.30 edits made related to structure, style and grammar
 * the relationship of the topic to St. Peter of Eboli is unclear and unlinked from the text, although linked in See also
 * Italian phrases need translating e.g. in current events
 * images could be sized consistently
 * left/right image justification will reduce page scrolling and unused white space
 * the bell tower is mentioned in the lead section but nowhere else. This could be moved from the lead section and/or supported with later information.
 * the page on Eboli contains a link to 'Badia (Abbey) of San Pietro alli Marmi', the text for which could be better aligned with the draft page.
 * it is unclear how far the Basillica is from Salerno, and if close may warrant a link from the page on Salerno.
 * unclear meaning: 'The complex was named Basilica of St. Peter Alli Marmi in 1930, due to the presence of marble elements'
 * some inconsistent and incorrect use of bold
 * the Crypt could be supported with a relevant image
 * untranslated latin: '"sancti petri apostoli quod situm est foris et castelum evuli." - and should this be in italics?
 * the structure could be clearer. There are main sections on History and Architecture, but in other sections there are also sub-sections on History and Architecture
 * there could be more information on the exact location, including relationship to the sele river, topography, general layout, access, map, etc.
 * despite a sub-section on 'present day' it is unclear if it is open to the public or its current main use
 * some minor inconsistencies in caption format e.g. 'church of' vs. 'Church of' Limelightangel (talk) 11:28, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * thanks for the advices. AleBone21 (talk) 22:06, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Added distance from Salerno in kilometers AleBone21 (talk) 22:26, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * the Italian names of the events (in present day section) have been translated in english LIUCLisa6 (talk) 12:04, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * the inconsistencies of "church" and "Church" have been corrected LIUCLisa6 (talk) 14:20, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Clarified meaning in the last lines of history section AleBone21 (talk) 14:44, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Added images to the Crypt section ALVISC26 (talk) 21:41, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Translated the latin quote, clarified the current use of the Basilica in the 'present day' sub-section ALVISC26 (talk) 21:49, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The link to St. Peter of Eboli has been deleted, because it was not related to the topic. The use of bold has been corrected. ALVISC26 (talk) 21:53, 13 December 2023 (UTC)