Talk:Sand cat

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Untitled
This picture is to small to be eligible for consideration as a Badbilltucker 16:35, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks like a domestic cat. Are these felines able to hybridize with domestic

Movin' on
Nominate this for a move to Sand cat, seeing how "sand cat" isn't a proper noun (no matter what some people seem to think...)  TREKphiler   hit me ♠  03:11, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Disagree. The logic layed out at WP:BIRD as sound. - UtherSRG (talk) 08:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Raptor
The article listed as a reference shows that large birds of prey (raptors) are a threat to the sand cat. A few users keep removing this, I assume because they are unfamiliar with what a raptor is. I have reverted the edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by F4hy (talk • contribs) 04:45, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Abstracts

 * http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/abstract/75/8/2154 Diet in captivity.
 * http://www.springerlink.com/content/bva17b0mdvdc3nty/ Sensitive hearing.
 * http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/110492479/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0 Social interaction in captivity.
 * http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/33/2/151 Social behaviour amongst all small cats.
 * http://www.springerlink.com/content/j3068r2p2p667995/ Phylogeny. Marskell (talk) 11:13, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

additional sections
If anyone could add information about the Sand Cat's predators and prey or where it fits in a food chain, that would be an excellent addition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.35.228.100 (talk) 02:56, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

just one kitten?
Why is it relevant that one kitten was born at Israel's Safari Zoo in July 2011? It is expected to join a program for breeding them in captivity for release in the wild. Kittens being born in captivity is hardly a new thing. Having this on the page seems like advertising for the zoo, and is thus counter to Wikipedia's policies about advertising. Nadiatalent (talk) 12:22, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Cool
sand cats are like, really cool. Oh also, one kitten is not relevant to the article at hand. I agree with the advertising thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.50.153.61 (talk) 17:30, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps if you read the article just as I spent a few minutes doing you would see the issue of "One" kitten was resolved in 2011 !!! Your opinion on how cool they are is noted though irrelevant to the Encyclopedia. Regards Zoo  Pro  12:38, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Hybrids
I'll leave this up the admins to include this information or not, but there's been a somewhat booming breed of hybrids in the American southwest between Sand cats and domestic cats, likely from a privately owned Sand cat being bread with an American orange tabby and its subsequent descendants. I've personally come into possession of one of these hybrids and have confirmed with veterinarians that it's 1/16th Sand cat. 184.101.62.67 (talk) 23:32, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd wondered if the species were interfertile. Now I know.
 * Does your hybrid have any of the sand cat's distinctive markings? I would think that would be what commercial breeders would be aiming for. --Pete Tillman (talk) 23:22, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Editoral Issues
In the "Characteristics" section is written the fragment "The ears are b[15]". Later in that section are two nonsensical transitions. The first one seems to confuse the paws and the eyes: "The undersides of the paws are protected from extreme temperatures by a thick covering of fur. They are set low, giving a broad flat appearance to the head." The second confuses the paws and the ears: "This feature makes the cat's tracks obscure and difficult to identify and follow.[17] This trait may protect the inner ears from wind-blown sand and aid detection of movements of subterranean prey." 24.84.84.252 (talk) 18:49, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
 * -- hey, you broke this here; could you fix this please? --jpgordon:==( o ) 19:33, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Removed the broken line. I planned to improve this article, but really busy in real life this month. Sainsf  (talk · contribs) 03:10, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

bite force
"The sand cat has a bite force quotient of 133.1", which is the highest of all cats.[21] that cant be right thats higher than a tiger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bite_force_quotient


 * Looking at the source, it is almost right. They give two different bite force quotients. For the one at the canine tip, the sand cat's is indeed the highest of all felids (136.7), whereas at the carnassial eccone (sand cat: 133.1) it is surpassed by the Pampas cat, Oncifelis/Leopardus colocolo. And yes, it is well possible that this is higher than a tiger, because it's the bite forece quotient, which is calculated in some relation to body size, and not the pure bite force as such. Robuer (talk) 08:46, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Sand cat. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140203194257/http://biostor.org/cache/pdf/31/59/5c/31595c2584045ce5f8d1bc6609b72aa2.pdf to http://biostor.org/cache/pdf/31/59/5c/31595c2584045ce5f8d1bc6609b72aa2.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130512021723/http://www.jerusalemzoo.org.il/var/360/456130-sand%20cat-internet.pdf to http://www.jerusalemzoo.org.il/var/360/456130-sand%20cat-internet.pdf
 * Added tag to http://tv.ibtimes.com/rare-sand-kittens-born-in-israel-after-years-of-rumored-extinction/7327.html

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IUCN Cat Task Force changes
Looking through this article, I noticed that it listed four subspecies, whereas the latest assessment by the IUCN Cat Classification Taskforce only lists two, subsuming F. m. harrisoni and F. m. scheffeli into F. m. thinobia. I added this information to the article under subspecies when I first noticed it, and then added the subspecies's names to the taxobox to avoid confusion (since there are presently two subspecies lists).

However, that leads me to a question: should I merge the info from F. m. harrisoni and F. m. scheffeli into F. m. thinobia, as is happening in other places? There does not seem to be any really good reason to keep them separate, as all four ssp. articles are short, almost stubs, and there is no major distinction between the populations in either ecology or research.

Also, the Cat Taskforce's paper on the subject had a better map of the sandcat's range, with ssp. differentiation. Would it be possible for someone to replace the present range map with that one?

If no one objects, I can complete the merges plus add information from the IUCN paper.--SilverTiger12 (talk) 13:15, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree - this is just the kind of case where we generally subsume subspecies articles into the species article (or don't split them off in the first place). -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 13:39, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Had the very same thought this morning too to merge the info under scheffeli !! But please WP:PATT it, since we experienced so much neglect of proper attribution already in the lion subpages. The edit history is rather short, so shouldn't be a big deal to find the additions there. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 13:48, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * WP:PATT seems simple enough; thanks for pointing it out. Also, the IUCN subsumed scheffeli under thinobia, not the other way around. Honestly, I can do most of the merging, but getting the IUCN paper's range map is beyond my technical skills.--SilverTiger12 (talk) 13:54, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * That's what I meant: merge info from scheffeli into thinobia. Sorry for confusion. I wonder anyway whether it's necessary to have pages for the subspecies at all, since they are so short. So I suggest to place all into the main page and instead redirect the subpages to the main page's taxonomy section. How's that? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 13:59, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd actually rather not. The subpages might be small now, but they have the potential to grow.--SilverTiger12 (talk) 14:08, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Theoretically: yes. But in practice, may take deeecades. Funding is so very sparse for projects on LC assessed species, so that currently, there is only one ongoing in North Africa, and one in the pipeline in Iran. I don't expect lots of new info in the near future. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 14:21, 29 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I have done a lot of work at Felis margarita thinobia, adding a lot of material taken from scheffeli and harrisoni, as well as from the main page. It could probably use some clean up, but it is long enough now that I'm not sure it's still a stub. Take a look!--SilverTiger12 (talk) 16:37, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Nice! Surely not a stub any more. Next, we should remove content of the harrisoni and scheffeli pages so that nothing gets lost in the process. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 16:46, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I managed to incorporate all the info & refs from harrisoni, so I'll blank it already. F. m. scheffeli still has some I haven't used yet, but I'll get to it next.--SilverTiger12 (talk) 16:51, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I got the info from F. m. scheffeli merged; the edit summary is a mess due to an edit conflict. Also blanked scheffeli.--SilverTiger12 (talk) 17:21, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * That was all in regards to locality records for thinobia. Missing, I think, is a section on behaviour and ecology. Do you want to work on this? There is quite some info in Heptner and Sludskij that may be appropriate to add. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 20:20, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Depends. Is that source available online? I could try to do it today, but only if I have the time- I have school to focus on first. Otherwise, thanks for expanding the articles. Although if I have a lot of free time this weekend, I may take a go at the lion articles...--SilverTiger12 (talk) 13:39, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Mammals of the Soviet Union is available online at the archive.org. You can get to the five volume from here or go directly to the sand cat entry.  Jts1882 &#124; talk 13:55, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
 * see the list of references, there are several articles available for free download. For thinobia, Geptner and Sludskij provide exteeeensive info.
 * am glad you are watching. I'm trying to bring the main page into better shape. Would you have any idea who can be asked to review this for an eventual uprating to B- or A-class? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 14:32, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Carried out...Conducted is much much better
Thanks very much...conducted is much better than "carried out. I have no desire to argue with your horror at "due to a lack of in-depth studies targeting wild sand cat populations" versus "as only a few in-depth studies targeting wild sand cat populations were carried out". I may say "lack of"...you may say only a few ..but it conveys the same meaning to the reader, IMO. Some studies were made,...if no studies of any sort had been completed, I hope that is what the article would, of course, say.  But please, please don't end a sentence with "carried out." This is why I asked the rhetorical grammatical question, concerning where things were being carried. Thanks for providing "conducted", which I respect as a good choice, since you were unhappy with my changes.  Tribe of Tiger  Let's Purrfect!  04:53, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * A few is more a statement of fact while lack of is making a judgement. I also disagree on conducted over carried out, but neither is needed. I'd also replaced targeting with examined. How about as only a few in-depth studies have examined wild sand cat populations. —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 09:49, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Hmm: studies do not examine, but PEOPLE do. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 10:34, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Grammatical problems
Under Hunting and diet, first paragraph, last sentence: "The Toubou people recounted of sand cats coming to their camps at night and drinking fresh camel milk."

This is very poorly worded. "Recounted of" is absolutely poor English grammar. "The Toubou people of Northern Africa reported that sand cats came to their camps at night and drank fresh camel milk." This is much better, but if you prefer to leave out "Northern Africa", for whatever personal and editorial reasons, please, at least, allow one of these grammatical sentences: "The Toubou people reported some incidents of sand cats coming to their camps at night and drinking fresh camel milk." OR "The Toubou people reported that sand cats occasionally came to their camps at night and drank fresh camel milk."to remain.

Surely, we should supply a two word modifier "Northern Africa". Please let me know why this was objectionable. Thanks,  Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect!  05:51, 21 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I can't access the reference but I suspect recounted was used to indicate that this is a word-of-mouth telling of a story, possibly part of folk-law. Reported suggests something more formal, such as a report in a newspaper or scientific journal. If my guess is right then The Toubou people tell stories of sand cats coming into their camps at night and drinking fresh camel milk might be better (or recount for tell). —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 09:57, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Correct : word of mouth, but not based on structured interviews. Dragesco-Joffé spent a lot of time with the Toubou during his several visits to the Ténéré. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 10:32, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Sand Cat in Israel
I read recently of a wild Sand Cat being seen in Israel, and photographed. If so, it isn't locally extinct, as the article says. I didn't note any details since I wasn't aware of the statement here at the time Chrismorey (talk) 16:54, 29 May 2021 (UTC).


 * Chrismorey can you provide the citation? Duck Dawny (talk) 14:18, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I wasn't aware of the article when I saw it. An internet search gives:
 * https://www.treehugger.com/rare-sand-cat-kittens-born-in-israel-4860737
 * https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sand+cat+israel+video&view=detail&mid=42864E38D9F8EE32211842864E38D9F8EE322118&FORM=VIRE
 * Chrismorey (talk) 15:36, 7 May 2022 (UTC)


 * If you have notable citations from credible sources you can add the information to the article. Duck Dawny (talk) 10:04, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

F. m. tocchii
These may be proposed taxonomy instead of one more commonly accepted at the time of this edit, but discussions pertaining to that topic is a matter of phylogeny and not the editing policy of wikipedia. Removing contents that is not of the nature of original research but with a reference to a published article in a peer-reviewed open-access academic journal appears to be arbitrary and subjective.

Tuareg people and snakes
"Among the Tuareg people of the Ténéré desert, it has a reputation of efficiently killing venomous snakes."

@BhagyaMani: What is the source for this statement? This sentence has no ref, and is featured only in the lead section. From Special:Diff/954253204, I understand that you have inserted this info. -- NGC 54  ( talk ｜  contribs ) 00:57, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your note. Dragesco-Joffé (1993) is the source for this statement. He also took photos of a sand cat killing a snake. I amended the sentence in the lead, as I think it is not relevant what the Tuareg think about the cat's diet. – BhagyaMani (talk) 07:23, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Status update
I merged/redirected the two subspecies articles into this one, as they were essentially just partial, sparser duplicates of this article. Also, I added an image that is specified to be of one subspecies to the taxonomy section, so if anyone can find an image specifically of the other subspecies (F. m. margarita), that'd be useful. Happy editing, SilverTiger12 (talk) 21:29, 9 November 2023 (UTC)