Talk:Sandman (Marvel Comics)

Formatting
I changed the formatting on this page a bit, so it resembles the format used for other marvel comics villains more and now the contents box isnt halfway down the page. This page still needs alot of work though! i'll add the copyedit link thingy. --Robje 20:46, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Film - "Uncle Ben's true murderer" rumors
OK... a while ago someone added this rumor to the page. Not long after, someone said that Sam Raimi had denied it. Later, someone removed the whole thing. Then the rumor came back. Can someone either check into this or drop the whole thing? Preferred solution: A description of his actual appearance in the trailer WITHOUT any speculation. - HKMARKS 00:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Simple solution - it's gone. CovenantD 00:55, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course, the silly thing only came back. ;)  I did some checking, found the picture that started the rumour.  It's a fake, and a cheap one:  -- the tell is the white edge around Robertson's hand and Church's shoulder.  I'm almost tempted to go through the DVD and find the frame the guy's face was ripped from.  I could not find Raimi's rebuttal, so I don't know if that was true.  I'm leaving the rumour and the evidence against it in the article, just so people don't feel they have to add it. - HKMARKS 03:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Powers and Abilities
Is is just me or does SandMan have mild color changing abilities, too? Why, you ask? Well, for starters, his torso and legs can be compleatly sandy-brown one minute and have the appearence of a green shirt and tan pants on the next. Should this be mentioned up here? --MrRandomGuy 07:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that it's just a case of unstable molecules. Like how Johnny Storm can burst into flames without his clothes melting away.Lots42 06:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Venom poisons the Sandman?
I think Venom messed with the Sandman's body when he bite off a piece of Sandman. At least that was the story in Finnish translation. Sandman can't get himself together if some of his sand is missing. Lalli 18:27, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

To answer your question he died and came back like most comic characters.LifeStroke420 (talk) 23:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

No relation to Cain Marko

 * Something should be added about that... JuJube 11:17, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

someone messed it up
75.87.119.195 17:31, 6 May 2007 (UTC)ZeR

One Question
Please don't ask why I am asking this here but nobody answered me yet on the symbiote page, but I was wondering if all a symbiote could find is someone like Sandman, would the symbiote be able to bond with him, even if he can cause sand storms and stuff. Please answer!!!! Thanks!!! ManofSTEEL2772 2:52 May 20 2007


 * You probably haven't gotten the reply because speculation isn't just quite the right kind of stuff for Wikipedia. If Venom ever did try and bond with Sandman, I'm sure it and the results be noted in this article or on Venom's article. I hope this made sense. Lots42 06:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Name issues
The article alternately refers to Sandman as Marko and Baker. As far as I can tell, both are technically accurate, but shouldn't just one be adopted for consistency? As it stands, the article mentions Baker throughout, but doesn't even indicate that that's a name for Sandman until halfway down the page. If Baker is the accepted psuedonym for the character, can we change the rest of the article to reflect that?
 * William Baker is the character's real name. He's just more widely known as Flint Marko.  Heck, even in the Ultimate Spider-Man series, that's his real name. The Green Lantern 01:51, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man #1, which came out today, fully explained his real name, and how he came up with "Flint Marko". I updated his biography with that info. Nightscream 04:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

"Ryker's Island"?
I'm not sure if this is the spelling they use in the books, but in actual New York, it's Rikers Island. Croctotheface 08:10, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It's spellec "Ryker's" in the books. Dunno why, though. The Green Lantern 01:51, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The prison in the comics is a fictional one based on the real-life one. Granted, it's kinda stupid to do that if all you're gonna do is change one letter (why not just keep the real one, and say that it has superhuman containment facilities in the MU?), but that's the reason, according to the Ryker's article. Nightscream 04:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing so they lower the risk of getting sued. See, with a fictional prison, you can blow it up or have the warden an murderous alien or kill off all the staff. Lots42 06:33, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Questions Galore
1) Why does the info at the top of the discussion page think this is a movie article? Why does it think this is a stub article?

2) On the main article page, many of the categories are 'Unsorced Statements'. None of these categories appear on the edit page. This confuseth me greatly. What's up with that?

3) In the 1602 section, what's up with the image text? I didn't wipe it out, I wanted to give someone the chance to upload their pic, if in fact that is what the case is.

Lots42 06:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

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Dispute over Intro and Bio section
We seem to have a dispute over this edit. My position is that the Intro is supposed to be a summary of the most salient points of the article. This is explicitly stated in the very beginning of WP:Lead Section. Detailing the character's real name and major aliases, and the fact that he's appeared in many other media adaptations, is a reasonable summary of the article, and consistent with how I notice other fictional characters are covered on WP. As for the bio section, mentioning that he's from Queens, since the source cited for that section mentions it, seems reasonable.

User: User:DCincarnate says that his version of the Intro is consistent with WP:CYF, that his birthplace, unless he's someone like Thor or Orion, is irrelevant, and that his edit was agreed upon here. My response is this:


 * First, There is nothing in WP:CYF that I can see that makes any aspect of my edit inappropriate. The facts are correct and verifiable, and it reads as that policy prescribes.
 * Second, I know of know policy or guideline that says that a character's place of origin is irrelevant unless it's a mythical or fictional realm, and DCincarnate has not provided one that does (yet).
 * Third, there is nothing at the discussion DCincarnate linked to that indicates that any aspects of his edit was agreed upon, as that is a completely different discussion about the Infinity Gauntlet in particular, and about how to explain fictional things in a way that does not appear confusing or in-universe in general. Nothing in the Intro of my edit appears confusing or in-universe, and again, it is consistent with WP:Lead Section.

Let's see what everyone else thinks. Nightscream (talk) 13:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Birthplace: I see two slight problems with listing the birthplace as is - one minor and one perhaps marginally more important. The minor one is that, although eminently verifiable, there isn't an obviously footnoted source for that information in the edit as shown. More importantly, as it relates to the discussion on fictional wordplay, without a modifying "Marvel Comics' iteration of (Queens)," it might be a little too "in universe" as it stands, since it implies a fictional character was born in a real place... but that's probably stretching a literal interpretation to breaking point. So aside from thinking that maybe there could be a need (even though it's patently obvious) to stress that this is fictional Queens, then I can't easily see anything that conflicts with the discussion, nor with WP:CYF either.
 * Leader: Certainly SPIDER-MAN should be linked in the lead-in, possibly the powers part is unnecessary (although it segues nicely into his reforming, and is certainly not uncommon or overlong), but the information on his appearing in TV and films certainly seems standard - see Joker (comics), Scarecrow (comics), Doctor Octopus, etc.
 * And that part certainly doesn't seem to conflict with the discussion linked, and also seems in keeping with the official guidelines. ntnon (talk) 15:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * A lead should be a summary of the article, and given the prose of this article is around 25kb, I'd suggest two or three paragraphs are appropriate as outlined in our manual of style at WP:LEAD. Certainly not two or three sentences.  Other than that, let's remember the character doesn't have a "real name", since its fictional.  I'd argue the same for birthplace; the character isn't really born anywhere.  Better to couch it in out of universe terms, the character is depicted as a New York resident, with whatever issue it is established that the character was born in Queens.  I'd argue that the birthplace is of some importance; it establishes character within the mind of the reader and is a conscious creative decision on the part of the authors. Hiding T 15:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the original lead is along the right lines. What I tend to like to see in a medium length piece on a character like this is the details in the first paragraph (publisher, creators, first appearance), then describe the main aspects of the character in the second one (adversaries, abilities, etc. - although it could be done on a less in universe style like "He is usually depicted as a shapeshifter, etc.") and as he has appeared in other media I'd mention that in a third paragraph (probably, as in this case with a link to the film). You can probably boil the details of a character like this down to a dozen (ish) keywords/phrases: Lee, Ditko, Spiderman, shapeshifter, Spiderman film, etc. and then you can build those into the lead using two or three paragraphs. As has been mentioned you want the lead to give a summary of the page, so that someone arriving here can skim those and get the general gist of the character.
 * Location is a tricky one and I must admit I do have problems with fictional character biographies as a lot of people write it in a purely in universe style which doesn't allow for things like retconning. I'd have no problem with starting it "Sandman's origin story is given as..." or some such, discuss what he was initially called and his fictional background. The thing is that such things can be changed at the stroke of a pen, and if so this is worthy of a mention. (Emperor (talk) 16:07, 15 May 2008 (UTC))
 * I threw in a few paragraphs there to give an idea of what I mean - one big block of text isn't so easy to digest and it breaks down nicely. (Emperor (talk) 16:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC))

Thanks for your participation, guys. As far as the reference to Queens, when I first wrote that section, I was in the practice of only putting a single citation at the end of the material that relied on the source in question, regardless of how many paragraphs long it was. Now I put citations at the end of each paragraph that relies on the source (is there a policy or guideline that governs this?), so I did so with the paragraphs in that section just now.

As far as birthplace, I don't respectfully don't think that any reasonable person who read the Intro and sees the images, and knows that he's a fictional character by the time they get to the Bio section will think that he is a real person, or that the passage is implying as much, or that it's in-universe. Birth is just another aspect of a character's history, just like his history with Spider-Man. Saying "He was born here" is no more in-universe, IMHO, then "Spider-Man beat him with a vacuum cleaner", since both are things that never "really" happened. Nightscream (talk) 19:20, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure why I was asked to comment, I don't think I've done much, if any, editing of this article. However, I certainly like Nightscream's version of the opening better. It provides a more complete summary of the character, including early publication information and other media. As to Ntnon's concerns regarding geography, I don't think that level of distancing (marvel's version of...) is needed. That fictional stories are set in real places is so normal that it's not worth correcting on that account. Dickens, Twain, Vonnegut, to name three famous fiction writers, all used real places (including, of course Tralfamadore), and making the distinction seems overly pedantic. ThuranX (talk) 20:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

A intro is supposed to be direct, to the point, and a summary of the article i think that its fine the way it is right now.LifeStroke420 (talk) 22:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Just a few short comments...
 * The current lead, three 1 sentence paragraphs, reads better as one paragraph.
 * "Sandman (a.k.a. William Baker; a.ka. Flint Marko)" could be changed to "Sandman (a.k.a. Flint Marko or William Baker)". It's not as awkward and it keeps thing in publication order.
 * "He has been adapted into..." would, IMO, work better as "The character has been adapted into...". Remember, the lead is real world context. That means we're dealing with a character, a thing, not a real person.
 * As an over all concern: Where the heck is the real world context for the rest of the article? We've got the in universe info covered, now how about creators comments on why thing were added to the character? How Marvel shipped the character around books? How Marvel took positive and negative reader responses to these things?
 * Major editing nit #1 since it intersects here: Could those involved with lobbing this back and forth please bother to actually put an explanation of their edits in the edit summary? Looking at the history, and overall contribs of some, it's all but impossible to quickly see what is being done and why.
 * Major editing nit #2 since it also intersects here: The edit summaries are even more important when images, especially those in the infobox, are changed. What has been done here is a good example. Why was a good image replaced? No reason was given, it was just done. Does the replacement meet the guidelines? Yes, but so did the one it replaced. Does the replacement have significance? As the cover of the character's first appearance, yes, but that doesn't make it the best choice for the 'box. I've harped on the "Newer doesn't always mean better" with the 'boxes, well the same is true about "older".
 * - J Greb (talk) 23:09, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

(This neutral comment provided upon request of User Nightscream) IMO - the shorter version takes the need for succintness a little too far; at the expense of the need to make it understandable to a general audience.

The longer version doesn't appear to me to be excessively discursive - the only thing I wonder about it is that it may appear too Spiderman-centric - is there any way to indicate that he tended to pop up as an adversary to various superheroes?

Also, from the perspective of a general audience presentation, IMO, the term 'shapeshifter', I find difficult to understand - also the power description could perhaps be made a little clearer, as turning oneself into sand per se, maybe isn't descriptive enough. Perhaps something like 'the power to transform his body, giving it plastic sand-like properties of various density.' Or a few more terms taken from the powers section.

Cheers,

--Skyelarke (talk) 23:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

While I see what you mean he is a spiderman foe first and foremost.LifeStroke420 (talk) 23:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * ThuranX, I contacted you because you have interest/experience with comic book-related articles, and because you were one of the participants in the discussion that DCincarnate linked to that he stated provided a precedent for his version of the disputed material. JGreb, I agree that one paragraph works better for the Intro, and that "He" should instead be "The character". I implemented both suggestions (though I accidentally hit the Enter button before completing the Edit Summary). I put "William Baker" first because that's his birth name, and figured it's better to put that before the alias he assumed. As far as the out-universe stuff you prescribe, I'm all for it if someone can find sources for it. Nightscream (talk) 23:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The fictional character's in-universe birthplace does not help anyone understand the character any better. Doczilla  STOMP! 02:32, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You don't think so? You wouldn't imagine him different if he was born in Japan, England, New Zealand or Mars? I beg to differ. It adds character.  Ah, the creators have made him be born in Queens, so he's like this instead of that. I certainly think you can have a different view on this, but it should not be asserted as fact that it does not add to the characterisation.  Obviously we have to avoid original research, but this is why we make descriptive claims, such as the character is presented as being born in Queens.  The reader is then free to ascribe any meaning to that. It certainly adds to their understanding, because they now understand where the creators decided the character was born.  If it is also revealed that he didn't grow up there, that also adds.  Curious readers might even ask, who decided he was born in Queens, and research it, and then uncover more details we could then add back into the article through summarising their work.  Just from that one detail.  Hiding T 08:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's more complicated than that. You could be born in Queens because your parents from Florida were visiting gramma when mom went into labor. My sons were born in a city where they have never lived. In their case, their state of birth is relevant to personal history, but naming the city up front as if they're from that place would mislead people.
 * Okay, in-universe birthplace can help understand the character (though not necessarily), but so can a zillion other details. Rarely does the in-universe birthplace belong in the lead. In the lead, we stress the fictional nature. Peter Parker is not from Queens, not from the real Queens, and yet Peter Parker is from Queens to the extent that we accept in-universe writing within the section clearly labeled as a fictional character biography.  Doczilla  STOMP! 18:20, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The birthplace was never in the lead, it was in the bio, and that's where it was being disputed. As to your other point, I take it, but until we're shown in the comics anything other than born in Queens, it's idle speculaton, yeah? Hiding T 18:39, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with User:DCincarnate here, and also support Doczilla  STOMP! . Birthplace, unless the character happens to be someone like Superman or Orion or Thor where origin is all-important, is irrelevant. In terms of Wikipedia, it means nothing to say X is from here as opposed to there, as there is nothing in the FCB that will distinguish between most characters and their actions. The main thrust of the FCB is (usually) how good or bad they've been and what they've done. Their birthplace is rarely a factor. Add to that the fact that not every character's supposed birthplace is known, and that volumes such as the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe are not reliable sources.

Asgardian (talk) 08:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Per my points to Doczilla, with which he broadly agrees, a birthplace, if it has been depicted within the comics, is not irrelevant. It should not be placed in the lead, I think everyone agrees on that, but it does have a relevancy, and actually, it does mean something to say X is from here rather than from there, as I have argued above. Unless you are suggesting that you imagine a character depicted as born on Mars as being no different from one born in England, Scotland, Japan, France or America.  Hiding T 15:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, but the Martian Manhunter is from a different planet, and falls into the first example. 95% of the characters, however, fall into the second category. No one can tell me that a FCB is written any differently for a hero/villain that is from New York State as opposed to Indiana. There is no difference.

Asgardian (talk) 15:57, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you missed the broad point — there are cases where the place where a character was born and/or raised is used as a shorthand for the basics of how the character acts. This is much more prevalent with the nation or region and up than for a specific city or neighborhood, but even those can have a place in an FBC. Daredevil and Hell's Kitchen would be an example of this, the area where the character grew up is used as a strong component of the character's identity and as a strong story element.
 * And there are also cases where a non-terrestrial place of birth means zip. Mars for example makes up a large part of the shorthand for the Martian Manhunter, but was only a tack on for Colossal Boy.
 * In the case of this article the question should be "Is the place of birth actually a cornerstone for the character's depiction?" Frankly, I don't think so. It was added late. And when it was added, it didn't change anything about the character. - J Greb (talk) 16:25, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Now see, I think the fact that it was revealed late is quite interesting, and is quite revealing by the fact that it was a late addition to the character's back story. Hiding T 17:08, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd agree if it were in the publication history and there was a cite as to why it was added. Otherwise it's a trivial point, and the place could have just as easilly been Brooklyn, Staten Island, Hoboken, or Newark. - J Greb (talk) 17:25, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah. Now that's your opinion that it could just as easily be Brooklyn, Staten Island, Hoboken, or Newark. That's not actually a fact, and unless you can source a creator saying it could just as easily have been one or the other, we shouldn't let it influence our decision, just as we shouldn't let the possibility that Queens was specifically chosen.  The fact is Queens was chosen.  We have to stick to the facts.  So the question then is, do we include every fact?  Well no, we can't.  We include important ones, notable ones, ones that have been commented on by secondary sources, and those which add to an understanding of the topic.  Now does knowing where a fictional character is presented as being born add to an understanding of the character?  I'm prepared to go out on a limb and say it's plausible, and per WP:EP we should retain it, modifying it better.  For example, and this is scrappy and off the top of my head, I'd be prepared to do something like "When initially introduced by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, the character's back story was relatively brief, with little exploration of his life history beyond details of how he came to possess super powers.  Many creators have added to this back-story, with this issue establishing foo and that issue establishing more foo.  In "this year" another issue revealed the character's birth place to have been Queens, New York. I'd support that. Another alternative is the footnote, but that can prove unwieldy. How much do we footnote, and why.... Hiding T 19:13, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And I've done it myself. It should read When initially introduced by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, the character's published back story.  It's possible they had a back story which never saw print. Hiding T 19:15, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I actually like that since it is put into a realworld context and cen be kept in publication order. - J Greb (talk) 19:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Daredevil is fine, because his birth place is constantly referenced and is relevant. For thousands of others, however, their birthplace may well as never been listed in OHOTMU at all as it is never mentioned.

Asgardian (talk) 16:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think we all tend to agree that there are times a birthplace will be important and times it won't. I think in this article it falls between the two stools, and in instances like that I tend to lean on editing policy and suggest we retain it because it may be of use to someone.  But we have to present the information properly. Hiding T 17:08, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why this is such a problem. Who are we to decide if it's irrelevant. Isn't that for the writer's to decide? If the writers say he was born in Queens, then shouldn't we follow their cue, since it was they who were trying to establish the setting of his origin? And while this info isn't derived from the MU Handbooks, I do not see how they are unreliable, since they're written by Marvel, published by Marvel, and all of their info is derived from the comics. Does it really take up so much space to say that he's from Queens? Nightscream (talk) 17:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * We can't draw from the MU Handbook for several reasons. Information that appears in them frequently gets contradicted by subsequent stories and even by subsequent editions of the Handbook. Also, taking information from an encyclopedia of any kind gets into Wikipedia policy issues, and this is not the place to argue about them. If you want to know more, you need to look up the lengthy history of discussions behind why we do not draw information from the DC and Marvel Handbooks. Doczilla  STOMP! 18:58, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Doc's right. The OHOTMU was incorrect from the get-go on strength (many characters shown to be far stronger in the comics than their listed entry) and other issues, so it is best to just disregard the whole thing.

Asgardian (talk) 20:02, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm clearly late to this discussion to which I was asked to contribute. I don't think I can add anything specific to [User:J Greb|J Greb]]'s point-by-point, particularly at 23:09, 15 May 2008, and to the general point Hiding makes about when and why to state a fictional character's birthplace/home in the lead. I'd also agree with Asgardian that WPC policy and general source unreliability disallows OHOTMU for the FCB. I don't know if my comments will help build consensus, but I certainly hope they contribute. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

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 * Fixed it. Nightscream (talk) 00:47, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Biography section needs editing
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