Talk:Sands of Destruction/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Nominator: 12:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: SnowFire (talk · contribs) 17:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Seeing as nobody's taken this in about a month, I'll take it. I made one insignificant edit when I saw it mentioned at WT:VG but don't think I'd call myself a major contributor to the article over that. Review to come... SnowFire (talk) 17:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Gonna give a commentary pass through the article first, and will loop back to the GA criteria later. Usual disclaimer that most comments are optional and it is totally fine to say "Nah, I prefer it as it is" - I'll make clear if there's something that's a major problem but I doubt that will come up. Feel free to reply either in-line or afterward.

Totally optional, but it's more like "learns he has the power to destroy the world", right? I get that the lead doesn't need to be 100% lore-accurate so it's fine if you'd rather keep it as is as just a rough summary. I personally think this reads just fine for GA, but as a mild warning, if you plan on taking this to FAC some day, someone might complain that this is too jargon-y for the lead. (Of course anyone caring about SoD in TYOOR 2024 knows this terminology already...) Hmm, this goes back to the lead just being a summary, but this sentence sells kind of an equal-ish split, but really it's like 95% turn-based, right? Just some button-mashing for some characters. Maybe "a combat system that uses mostly turn-based mechanics?" I'd rephrase to emphasize something like "some darker aspects from the draft". I know you already said "created" but I suspect this may read as, say, censorship from an earlier release in the internationalization or the like. This is very mysterious! Were they used, or just created and stashed? (I mean, yes, they were, it's in the body, but this reads strangely just from the lead, which is all many readers ever read.) I get that you're trying to concisely word around the international soundtrack having less J-Pop but I'd just write it out. "The Japanese pop band AAA created songs used for the anime and the game's opening, although the international release of the game used a new opening." Or whatever you think works better. (Side chatter) I guess I'll get to this in the Reception section, but game reviewers don't have great taste... the soundtrack wasn't really that good. (Side chatter) I am mildly amused you've picked a water serpent in water as the image to go with this sentence! (Not a request to change it to be clear.) This is again technically fine as is if you want to be very concise as encounters are discussed in the next paragraph, but can read as implying shops are the only thing in towns and puzzles the only thing in dungeons. Fine as is, but could also be more loquacious and say "The player party goes between safe town areas, housing facilities and shops, and dungeon environments which contain puzzles and hostile encounters. These are selected from a world map." Just a random draft idea, feel free to keep as is or do something different. "With both ground and air-based enemies", perhaps? I dunno if I'd hype the air-borne tactics as THAT different, but the moves do have different names I guess. Faces, right? Nit: I don't feel like this thought is strongly connected to the first part of the sentence, the size of the party. Maybe move it to the end of the paragraph with "Both standard enemies and powerful boses are encountered" or the like? I'm presuming you don't want to go into the weeds, but this is also too mysterious. I'd either leave this phrase out, or expand what you mean more. I feel like it should have mentioned earlier that actions can cause multiple "attacks" to set this up better, since this isn't an unusual thing in-game. (Also, was it ten hits that grant an additional turn, or just 10 swings and it doesn't matter if you're missing?). I think this phrasing is weird. "Special actions that can either deal damage, or provide utility and support" perhaps? Unsure if it should be called "magic" either since the flavor isn't always magical, weren't they called Blood Skills / Life Skills? Optional, but are you omitting special attacks intentionally? Getting to 6 Morale stops the combo and forces a special attack. Fine if this is an intentional omission as not relevant enough, but mentioning it in case it wasn't. Something is missing or wrong in this sentence. "Characters can be assigned up to four of their personal Quips. They can grant boons such as..." perhaps? (Note "can" since Quips weren't reliable IIRC.)
 * the story revolves around protagonist Kyrie after he gains the power to destroy the world"
 * a top-down perspective using 2D sprite characters navigating 3D environments
 * and a combat system combining turn-based and real-time mechanics.
 * some darker aspects were toned down for a wider audience.
 * Theme songs were created by Japanese pop band AAA.
 * with the one common point of praise being the soundtrack.
 * a group let by protagonist Kyrie across a desert world
 * The player party goes between safe town areas housing shops, and dungeon environments containing puzzles selected from a world map
 * with enemies being both ground and air-based and demanding different tactics to defeat
 * faced the enemy group
 * , either a standard enemy encounter or a boss encounter
 * inflict different attack types
 * Landing ten attacks in a row or a critical attack grants additional turn actions to the character.
 * party members can perform magical actions covering attack or defence
 * (nothing)
 * The party's equipment can be customised with different using materials
 * Up to four Quips can be assigned to the character who learns them and will grant boons such as increased battle rewards, or boosting attack or defence.

Anyway, that's enough for now. SnowFire (talk) 07:04, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Did my best to address everything above that seemed worth addressing. Also, I did miss the special attacks bit. This game may have interested me in some areas, but writing about the gameplay was such a grind. Pun intended. --ProtoDrake (talk) 08:06, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, the equipment customization sentence was the most important one to fix, and it still isn't fixed. That one does seem just broken but I'm not sure what you were trying to say, so can't recommend a fix myself. I think I still prefer "personal" rather than "character who learns them" as more concise but won't push it. Also, I think it would help to have a consistent terminology as the word "attacks" is used in different senses... right now 6 attacks automatically forces a special, but 10 attacks grants another attack, which is confusing. Maybe use "actions" for BP (get 6 actions, get a special attack) and "attacks" for regular hits (get 10 hits, get an action)?

And in side chatter, yeah, the system isn't that great. As already noted, subtractive defense + multihit + powerful buffs/debuffs means that both player & enemies go from dealing a string of 15 hits of 1 damage each (for laughable damage) to a string of 15 hits of 100 damage each (overkilling the tankiest party member by 3x) with just a few buffs that increase power / defense / etc.

Okay, on to plot... (Optional) It's been a long time, but while this is accurate in that she tries, does she ever really bring Kyrie onto her side? I recall Kyrie being profoundly milquetoast and essentially needing to be dragged into / tricked / forced into all the action. This is fine as is, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, just wonder if there's a way to hint at that rather than imply Kyrie is going "yeah let's blow this sucker up." Development: See MOS:DASH. Google says this is a minus sign, not a dash. Either use – spaced ndashes – or unspaced&mdash;mdashes here instead. (Side chatter) That's a hell of a disclaimer. "Outside of chain stores, there are no places to eat in this mall food court?" But that's what he says, so sure. (Although maybe "said" rather than "stated" per MOS:SAID.) (side chatter) Wait, the JP version was EVEN WORSE on this? It was still too high! Press X to doubt. In the realm of uncitable OR, the usual reason J-Pop (or Japanese voice acting) doesn't go international is because the contracts for the rights routinely didn't allow usage outside Japan for whatever insane reason, so they had to cook up a new musical intro. I think something got lost in translation here - maybe the "unique impression" from the interview is worth mentioning, but I don't think this "complete" statement is really meaningful, and maybe best left out.
 * Morte, determined to destroy the world, shows Kyrie the oppression of humans under the Ferals to bring him over to her side
 * And really that's it! You've done a fantastic job compressing the plot into under 500 words, including by skipping over the less sensical parts.
 * Mitsuda and Kato−who all knew each other to varying degrees−got together for a lunch
 * Mikage stated there were no RPGs for the DS outside established series
 * the random encounter rate was adjusted to be lower
 * When asked the reason, Shimosato said the original song would lack appeal to a Western audience.[
 * Tsuchiya felt the new opening theme gave Sands of Destruction a "complete" musical worldview

Not much more left! SnowFire (talk) 04:07, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry about missing those gameplay bits. Did some more work there, hopefully it's more understandable and not less. As to your other major point, the music, I'd missed that Tsuchiya commented the new opening was "for sale overseas", so I put in both statements. I honestly couldn't find many sources on the music. Also redid the last bit from Tsuchiya. --ProtoDrake (talk) 08:15, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, not too surprising that sourcing on the music is hard to find. (I'll be the first to say that you can't use my educated guess for the real reason behind the J-Pop not travelling overseas.) I was suspicious of this quote before... you were trusting GTranslate I presume? In general, I'd say it's a good policy not to include quotes-in-quotation marks off machine translations that look "weird". A Japanese-speaking friend got back to me, and yeah, "a more transparent sound that fits the game's worldview" (GTranslate) is just wrong. (Albeit for understandable reasons, sekaikanteki ni isn't really a word in a dictionary, just have to infer what's going on from what it's a compound of.) It really implies something more like "Worldly" / "international" / "broad-horizoned". And 透明感 is more like "clarity / clear" rather than "transparent", i.e. it's about clear communication of an idea, where the idea is the worldly-ness. So a free translation is closer to "we wanted it to be (internationally?) clear we conveyed the sound of a whole game world (not just some boys)." Which makes more sense as a thought for "why use a mixed choir." Up to you how to use this, but I don't think the existing not-a-quote quote should be kept. Optional: This is a close repetition, and "design" is a vague thing to praise anyway. Maybe: "David F. Smith of Nintendo Power wrote there was little original in the game's premise and combat, but praised its gameplay as overall enjoyable, and thought the dungeon designs were clever." I think this treats GameTrailers review as fact a little too much, rather than opinion ("noting", that the problems were already there but just "found", etc.). "GameTrailers thought the initial premise was strong and liked the graphics, but faulted the later story elements and the balance of the combat system." perhaps? Was he? I looked at the review and it was absolutely firebreathing. I guess he does say the game is playable, but I would personally suggest "unimpressed by the game". (Although idk why he wants larger towns... just the important stuff, this isn't real life!) While here, this also reads as Miller merely discovering flaws that were already there. (I mean, I sorta agree with him in parts, but it's still an opinion.) Going with the above, maybe something like: "RPGFan's Kyle E. Miller was unimpressed with the game, finding the soundtrack the only thing he could unreservedly praise about the game.  He criticised the sprite animations, cutscenes, character designs, character personalities, voice acting and plot." (Usual disclaimer this is just an optional suggestion, it's up to you, rephrase as needed.)
 * While he had wanted an all-boys choir for the vocals, girls were included to add a "transparent" sound to the piece.
 * praised its design as enjoyable and praised the dungeon designs
 * GameTrailers noted its strong initial premise and graphics, but faulted the later story elements and problems found in its combat balance.
 * RPGFan's Kyle E. Miller was generally mixed about the game
 * as other aspects were either mechanically flawed or of uneven quality.

The anime & manga section look fine to me. Only concern is the episode list from the separate anime article not being in the merge, but I know that was already discussed and clearly some animes include it and some don't. I could see someone arguing that it should be resurrected and spun off to List of World Destruction episodes or something, but even if that was done and sourcing was found, it wouldn't really affect the GA status of this article. SnowFire (talk) 23:18, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I think I've addressed everything you added above. And many many thanks for the JP clarification, I was agonising over that for a while and wasn't fully happy with the result. Some deeper language knowledge is a huge help. --ProtoDrake (talk) 07:52, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

As a general thought, it would be nice if someone, somewhere provided a sourceable estimate on non-Japan sales of SoD, but I realize that we probably don't have it and are stuck with unusable VGChartz "it came to me in a dream" sales estimates.

Won't go over the full GA criteria template, but the source spot checks (barring the issues raised & fixed above) were fine. (Well, ideally we'd have a better source on the manga volume collections being published than a catalog, but it's fine, we take what we can get for an obscure title that probably didn't sell that great.) The images are appropriately tagged. No copyright violation issues. Prose was covered in the review above. Neutral & stable, and covers the full topic. Complies with MOS:VG expectations as best I can tell. Looks good to me! I'm passing the nomination, nice work. SnowFire (talk) 18:41, 28 June 2024 (UTC)