Talk:Santa Cruz massacre/Archive 1

early comments
It's the weirdest thing, I was actually looking for what Wikipedia said about the months long sacking of Dili after the East Timorese risked their lives by both voting (many had to walk hours to do so), and then over 75% of them voted for independance despite the armed soldiers looking on. Which resulted in the Capital of Dili being burnt to the ground in retribution, or in the words of a journalist who only saw the pictures each night: "Pro-Indonesian militias refused to accept the overwhelming vote and went on a violent rampage -- the images of which will not be erased for generations."

Yet, almost no mention. So I looked to see what was written about the Dili Massacre, again nothing. And what is scary is that a quick Google search expecting to see the dozens of BBC & CNN reports of the time, none.

So I ask people besides myself, please help provide two NPOV articles one on the Dili Massacre of 1991; and the other about the post independance militia destruction of Dili that also scared 290,000 people across the border into refugee camps. (in Australia we even had reporters telling how they saw Indonesian soldiers changing from uniform to militia clothing before joining the mob). Not restricted to Dili, but the destruction of all infrastructure was the army's goal (PPOV).

Can anyone suggest a suitable article name for the 1999/2000 sacking?
 * As the Indonesian military name of the operation was "Scorched Earth Operation", I'll use the article title "Timor-Leste Scorched Earth"Daeron 17:18, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Any sources for the "Scorched Earth Operation" as a TNI military term? I do query it.

The most common name I recall locally for this episode is "Sembilan Sembilan", Indonesian for '99. It is not appropriate to regard this a a military operation. Firstly, President Habibie had moved towards letting East Timor go, and any army activity is most likely to have been renegade and localised. Secondly, the larger part of the destruction was caused by East Timorese who formed the militia.

What isn't clear is what these East Timorese would have done if Interfet hadn't turned up. Many who did flee over the border into West Timor did return. The violence and mayhem of Sembilan Sembilan is not unique to East Timor - it is a common political "process" in the region and elsewhere in the world. The pressure on the ground of the presence of foreigners, all seen to be advocating independence may actually have exacerbated the tension, rather than alleviate it. Indeed, the result of the referendum may actually not reflect the real situation in East Timor. Another remarkable fact is that Falintil, by all accounts, did nothing to protect its people. JoniAlcinoSoares 11:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Pave move
I moved this page to add the correct Accent to the title, also added some portuguese accents to words


 * Please move it back. Dili is the spelling in English.  A-giau 07:32, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Name of massacre
I always thought of this as the Santa Cruz Massacre. That is what is was called by people in Timor. I think it should be renamed or we should make a redirect from Santa Cruz Massacre - I had trouble finding this in Wikipedia. Also, unfortunately, more than one event in Dili's history can be called a Massacre, so Santa Cruz Massacre would be more specific.--Chinawhitecotton 23:38, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, I just noticed that the link on the page refers to it as the Santa Cruz Massacre. So does IFET, the International Federation for East Timor and ETAN, the East Timor Action Network. Now I definitely think this page should be moved to Santa Cruz Massacre, with redirects from Dili Massacre. Let me know your thoughts --Chinawhitecotton 23:45, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Still no comments on whether it should be called the Santa Cruz Massacre? --Chinawhitecotton 08:45, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree it should be called the Santa Cruz massacre, and I will make such a move soon. – Scartol  •  Tok  19:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

History of Indonesia infobox
While East Timor was under Indonesian rule at the time, and there is certainly an overlap between the two countries histories, is the History of Indonesia infobox really appropriate? I wouldn't categorise the Easter Rising in what is now the Republic of Ireland as 'History of the United Kingdom', nor events in Singapore between 1963 and 1965 as 'History of Malaysia', even though neither country was independent of the UK and Malaysia at the time.

Also, the reference to the students as Christian is irrelevant - most people in East Timor are, just as most people in Aceh are Muslim. That's not why they were shot at - many Indonesian military officers are Christian too. Quiensabe 31 Jan 2006 UTC 15:07

I had that thought too when I came to the page. Then I thought, well, it was Indonesia... But there is something almost creepy about having that giant indonesia box on this particular page. I am for removing it--Chinawhitecotton 17:26, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Try referring to the time when "Indonesia entered (masuk) East Timor" in conversation with ordinary Indonesians. You get some very quizzical looks, and your faulty bahasa will be firmly corrected - "East Timor entered Indonesia". Get out of the western blinkers! Christian? Locals will be appalled - please, Catholic. I agree with you, but the fact is that the core of the youth movement (that got under way in the later eighties) was the Catholic scouts. JoniAlcinoSoares 10:49, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, it's called Indonesian, not 'bahasa', and in order to liberate somewhere, as many Indonesians still believe their country did East Timor, you have to enter it. Anyway, what is wrong with saying 'Christian'? Catholics and Protestants are both Christian, even Indonesians can see that although Catholicism is considered a separate religion from Protestantism. My point was that it wasn't a Muslim vs Christian thing. Quiensabe (talk) 10:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Anyone with a problem
with the indonesian project box on this page - please leave it - the issue was critical to Timur Leste and Indonesia and their histories. SatuSuro 13:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Original research - citations - verifiability
I'm new here. I understand the meanings of these terms. I have read much of the East Timor material. I see some difficulties in the development of this area.

A lot of the extant material was recorded by people with an understandable bias. A lot has been copied over and over in subsequent reports. Much material needs to be examined critically. It is impossible to conceive of a sufficient body of "reliable sources" here! A contributor from original research ought to be able to actually "publish" in Wiki without having to publish eslewhere. There ought to be a way to cite self.JoniAlcinoSoares 11:08, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Looking at this article for the first time, I'm disappointed that citations are limited to an author's name and page number&mdash;no book title, publication details, etc, being given. Bjenks (talk) 08:41, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
 * They are probably listed here - from where most of this article was split. --Merbabu (talk) 08:46, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Good, then, thanks--but that's not pointed to in this article, and its necessary for the citations to be completed if they are to be of any value. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 09:33, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No kidding - feel free to fix it. --Merbabu (talk) 10:15, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Not me. It has to be for someone with access to the books. Bjenks (talk) 11:09, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Some of the cites have now been completed by transferring over from the other article - others (Alatas, Singh, Anderson, and Pinto and Jardine) were actually not complete in that article. So ???? cheers --Merbabu (talk) 22:59, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Death toll
John Pilger in his documentary Death of a Nation: "We can now reveal that a second, unreported massacre took place that day, and the following day, bringing the total number of people murdered and missing to more than 400" Unless a source for the current numbers in the article can be provided, the figures will be changed to 400 murdered and missing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mike.lifeguard (talk • contribs) 19:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

Nobody came forward with a source for those numbers, so I changed them. If they were in fact verified, please put them back, but add your source.Mike.lifeguard 23:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Pilger's reporting has been questioned. There are some aspects of the claims of murders outside the cemetery that don't ring true. There was at the time somewhat of a cult of reporting all sorts of gross and inflated stories that suited the indpendence movement. JoniAlcinoSoares 11:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)