Talk:Santería

Santeria isn't solely Cuban
"Santeria" is also the name used by Puerto Ricans for their religion. I have no reason to believe that they learned santeria from Cubans. E A (talk) 12:42, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Many Cubans have moved to Puerto Rico over the years, especially since the Cuban Revolution, so that may explain why the term transferred from one island to another, either to describe imported Cuban practices, practices that developed in Puerto Rico itself, or a mix of both. Midnightblueowl (talk) 08:45, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

To be more precise, "santería" is a general term. It is also used in the Colombia/Venezuela region. However, in addition to this it also can be applied specifically to regla de Ocha/Lucumí. Thus, there is ambiguity. Cruxador (talk) 21:18, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Presumably, the appearance of the term (which arose in Cuba in the 1930s) in Columbia and Venezuela is due to the substantial numbers of Cuban migrants who have moved to those regions, especially following the Cuban Revolution. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:28, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It could be, however this is speculative. At least, I have been told anecdotally that the term is in general usage so it seems to me equally or more likely that it arrived there by ordinary linguistic means to describe the same general phenomenon of syncretizing other religious figures with saints - it can be generally used in this way, not necessarily specific to the orisha faith, across the Spanish-speaking world. It is not, after all, a very non-obvious grammatical construction. However, this usage is in my perception less common and falling out of favor within the last century compared to more specific description of the Santería to which this article refers. In any case, the boundaries of what the more specific label fit are quite fuzzy. It's a difficult matter to address unambiguously. Cruxador (talk) 21:59, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Citation errors
There are a couple of citation errors:

203. Bascom 1950, p. 65; Mason 2002, p. 71; Wedel 2007b, p. 114. Harv error: link from CITEREFWedel2007b doesn't point to any citation.

416.Brandon 1992, pp. 76, 77-78; Fernández Olmos & Paravisini-Gebert 2011, p. 42. Harv error: link from CITEREFBrandon1992 doesn't point to any citation.

--Graham Beards (talk) 10:04, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks Graham Beards; I've now fixed those two errors. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:35, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Errors in spelling
I am familiar with Santería in Cali, where I live and in Sao Paulo, which I have visited.

The spelling "oricha" is original, I have never seen it, it should be orishá or at least orichá, being way, way, way more common the first one, except in articles written by non-native speakers of Spanish.

The Wikipedia article says Orisha.

I started to correct spelling but was unable when I realized that the word "oricha" is spelled like that 116 times, my gosh.

The same goes for "babaloricha" which I have seen spelled as "babalorisha".

I highly doubt the person writing the article has ever heard the salsa songs devoted to santería where the letters "sh" are invariably used instead of the much more strong pronunciation "ch" which I have never heard used in santería rites as both letters or digrams "sh" and "ch" have a very different pronunciation in Spanish.

Also Yemaja seems an English translation and a poor one or at least very original of Yemayá.

Ogun is spelt Ogún and Chango is Changó, Babalu is Babalú, is not Lucumi but Lucumí, which is a very common last name in Cali.

Most names in Santería are stressed in the last syllable and that is what the accent means.

There is mention of "guerror" in this Talk while one imagines it means to say "guerrero".

The word "Santeria" is used sometimes while most of the time says "Santería", which is the correct spelling.Ciroa (talk) 02:09, 25 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Santería in Sao Paolo? Do you instead mean Candomblé, a related tradition of Brazilian origin? As for many of the examples you say are incorrectly spelled, are you referring to the Talk Page or the article itself? Because in the article, we do use spellings like "Santería," "Changó" and "Lucumí" throughout. Also, "oricha" is the standard spelling for the deities of Cuban Santería in the English-language academic and specialist literature on this topic, whose example we follow. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:45, 25 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Rather than errors in spelling, there aren't universally accepted spellings in the first place. It seems that the article generally leans towards the most distinctively Cuban variants, which is probably the best that can be done in this decade. Although, "guerror" seems very strange to me too since that one should indeed have a correct form. But, that's because it's a Spanish word and not a Lucumí word. Cruxador (talk) 21:33, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Insufficient allowance for variation
It seems to me that the great degree to which most details can vary by Ilé (which this article translates as "casa") would not be obvious to a reader who isn't already familiar with this matter. This is true in little details, for two examples: the article says their are 16 main orisha, according to me if I picked a number it would be 15 and I have two different guesses who the 16th might be. This is something that can vary and it's normal for it to do so because the line between major and minor orisha is very vague. There is also the issue of gender. It is said that the orishas can be male or female, but there are also those which are genderless (Olokún is not, in my experience, normally depicted as humanoid and can be said to be without path/camino) or dual gender (Obatalá is said to have an equal number of male and female paths, and is entirely male as well as entirely female, containing the full wisdom of both genders) or otherwise not binary. It also applies to practitioners currently, the article states as though it were objective truth that women are equally important or more important in Santería, and specifically can hold the highest positions. Although this is true of Regla de Ocha, it doesn't account for the fact that in many Ilé, Ocha is very integrated with Ifá, and therefore a babalawo (a role only for males) can be considered more important. In addition, all specific references to practices could vary, although I didn't notice anything to which I'm aware of an obvious exception. Finally, even the big things can change. For example, the relative emphasis on the orishas compared to the ancestors can be very different. Cruxador (talk) 21:51, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
 * In its current form, this article does try to stress that there is a great deal of variation in how Santería is practiced. In the opening paragraph, for example, we state that "much diversity exists among practitioners," and in the "Definitions" section immediately following the lead we also highlight that "Santería is a flexible and eclectic tradition, with considerable variation in how it is practiced." On that count, we are certainly not trying to conceal this diversity of practice. (In the "Divination" section we also discuss the gendered restrictions of the babalawo).
 * It is important to remember that the nature of Wikipedia means that we are constrained by what the Reliable Sources say, and cannot add anything that represents Original Research. There are instances where this may mean that we make a statement that is true of many Ilé/casa, but not all. This is an issue that we inevitably face when putting together Wikipedia articles on any religion that is not heavily regulated and controlled by a central leadership. In those instances where you have concerns that we are presenting a generalisation that does not apply to all adherents, perhaps we could add in some words like "typically" or "often" so as to try and capture some of that variation? Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:37, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Christmas and Santa in modern Santeria
I'm a Nigerian born and bred in Nigeria. I have always been attracted to non European identity and I have embraced Santeria. I have been mentally unstable before I sincerely adopted Santeria. As a Nigerian in Nigeria, I'm a sort of authority on Santeria and so I am sure that starting from 2023, Santafest (first December to fourth January every year) is a Santeria holiday season during when there will be a lot icing Santa (saint) associated with Elegua or Esu who will bring gifts for children. This is not the Christian Christmas. Santa is a key element in Santeria ✅ (Santa Remi (talk) 11:49, 20 December 2023 (UTC))