Talk:Santería/Archive 1

Compare with Voodoo
Can someone do a comparison between this and voodoo, explaining the essential similarities and differences please?

AKA can someone write your essay for you? probably not.


 * different things altogether. Voodoo (Vodun) itself is different in Haiti and in West Africa (mainly Togo). Similarities are in that both are more or less synchretised. kashasu

There are various religions that are forms of syncretism of various forms of Folk Catholicism and various African religions.

Voodoo(Vodun), Ifa, Santeria, Macumba, Candomble, Umbanda, Abakua, Palo Mayombe, Palo Monte, etc.

I'm still not exactly sure what's different between West African religions and East African religions, but I'm under the impression that there tends to be differences.

Many of the African religions are forms of animism, which is based on the concept of "anima", which is a Latin term. Gringo300 18:08, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Too much focus on animal sacrifice
I have some real problems with this description of Lukumi religious worship - a quarter of it is devoted to animal sacrifice and animal rights activists: haha

"Many animal rights activists take issue with the Lukumí practice of animal sacrifice, claiming that it is cruel. Followers of Lukumí point out that the killings are conducted in the same manner as many food animals are slaughtered and are not needlessly sadistic and that the priests charged with doing the sacrifice are trained in humane ways to kill the animals. Additionally, the animal is cooked and eaten afterwards. (The similarities between Lukumí sacrifice and other forms of slaughter for food may be of little comfort to animal rights supporters or activists who are vegetarian.) In 1993, the United States Supreme Court ruled in Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah that animal cruelty laws targeted specifically at Lukumí were unconstitutional, and the practice has seen no significant legal challenges since then. The group is the frequent target of animal rights organizations such as PETA. The group does not advocate human sacrifice."

Religiously slaughtered animals whether kosher (Judaism) or halal (Islam) are features of two of the listed world religions - yet why is the focus of this piece on animals?

Is there a description of Christianity elsewhere which mentions human sacrifice (Jesus) and ritual cannibalism (sacrament of communion - body and blood of Christ)?

Offerings to Orisha in Lucumi/Lukumi/Santeria are made primarily of water, fruit, flowers, food, and cloth.

"Known practices include animal offering, ecstatic dance, and sung invocations to the Orishas. Chickens are the most common form of sacrifice; their blood is offered to the Orisha. Drum music and dancing are used to induce a trance state in specific participants, who may become (supposedly) possessed by an Orisha who then speaks through them (see Yoruba music). One's ancestors, egun, are held in high esteem in Lukumí."

Known practices include several highly developed divination systems - which are certainly not secret - Ifa and Merindilogun (among others) Herbal medicine is also a major component of this set of beliefs.

The links are skimpy - considering that there are many excellent websites, and there should also be a section for "Further Reading". I will gladly provide a reading list that I use in an anthropology course I am currently teaching.

The most important practice of Santeria is NOT animal sacrifice. It is divination. There are TWO forms of divination that are practiced in Santeria, Obi Agbon, that is divination with coconut pieces and Divination with cowerie shells. Ifa uses a system of divination with a chain. Animal sacrifice is done primarily for an initiation. The article should be edited to stress the importance of Divination over animal sacrifice. Also, the animals sacrificed are generally eaten on the Day in the Middle. They are not wasted.

Ewetuga.atare (talk) 22:45, 8 January 2013 (UTC) ________________________

The article is wrong in that Christianity does not practice animal sacrifice. -- === I disagree with you. You are right that Santeria priests have the right to animal sacrifice, since it is an important part of the faith. But in the Western world this practice is shocking for most of the people. I think there should be more lines written about animal sacrifice in the article, ant not only a few lines. For example, the article in the Spanish Wikipedia includes 4 or 5 paragraphs about this matter.


 * OTOH, this aspect definitely deserves attention. Especially in light of recent events that show the negative side effects brought on by the acts of some practitioners: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-04/dead-dog-in-reservoir-helps-drive-venezuelans-to-bottled-water.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.195.196.222 (talk) 04:09, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Merge
I did my best at merging this and Lucumí. This from someone who knows very, VERY little about the subject. Perhaps this content should be in Santeria, though as it seems is is the best-known name, instead of Santeria redirecting here. (???) -- Chris 20:16, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Where credit is due
The part describing where the term Santería came from was a direct quote. I marked it as such.

No, Lucumi and Santeria are not the same... but extremely similar.. it's more about a view. Santeria is "heavy" on catholic symbolism like the syncretization of Orichas to Saints because it is in Cuba.. Lucumi is Santeria before it had to go through the change because of slavery in Cuba. In Lucumi, you wont see Saints or anytype of christian symbolism in the practices. Also, the priests call themselves different things. In Santeria, a priest is a Santero/Santera and in Lucumi the priest is a Olosha...I believe. Also, In Santeria as in Lucumi, Yoruba is the language used when prayers are being spoken..But in Santeria, Yoruban has been latanized into a sort of " Spanglish slang" sort of deal.. while in Lucumi, which has not been influenced by the spanish, uses the Language in it's language without influences. So... They shouldnt really be merged... but hey, I thought this too at one time!

Rebuttal to credit where credit is due
Santeria and Lucumi are the same animal. The difference lies in the naming. Although a santero was known as one who carved saints it became a derivation for one who practiced the Regla de Ocha. Even the word Lucumi is an incorrect word, if truth be told, for there were various tribes mixed into that melting pot. The symbolism lies in the synchronization that was used to hide the faith from persecution at the hands of Spanish overlords. The majority of responsible santeros do not actively us any Christian symbolism in their rituals. They will though use the word "saint" as opposed to orisha from time to time. When it comes to prayers or ritual a santero will use the words that are familiar to him. Traditional prayers or praise songs are always sung in the Yoruba tongue with a slight "Spanish" taste due to the "creolization" of the language. This does not in any way shape or form change the fact that it is Regla de Ocha. The only issue that is brought up here is that of African Americans who have started to participate in the religion and take "umbrage" at the Spanish influence which is now inseparably intertwined in the religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by OloObatala (talk • contribs)

Lukumi and Santeria ARE the same. The only difference is some Santeria initiates have begun using the term Lukumi to differentiate themselves from those who feel you need to be baptised as a Catholic prior to getting initiated in Santeria and that you do not need to be presented at a church after getting initiated. In actual practice, there is absolutely no difference between Santeros who tend to use the word Lukumi or Santeria. I will find some academic citations proving this point and will eventually edit the main Santeria article.

Ewetuga.atare (talk) 22:45, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Religioustolerance.org
This article uses the religioustolerance.org website as either a reference or a link. Please see the discussion on Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org and Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org as to whether Wikipedia should cite the religioustolerance.org website, jguk 14:07, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I saw that the link was removed and someone returned it with no explanation. If the link is necessary, someone please put a disclaimer next to it as per Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org. WeniWidiWiki 16:53, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Religioustolerence.org definatly lacks any kind of credibility - they have a history of refusing to critisise even the worst behavior of groups most would call extremely desctructive cults. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.15.200 (talk) 17:27, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

Clarification
Someone said it earlier, and I think it is still relevant: what is the difference between Lukumi and Voodoo /Vodun? Lukumi and Voodoo are both listed as being derived from the Yoruba peoples, yet no distinction is made in the article between them. Are they the same religion called something different in varying regions? Also, how are they related to Candomble, Umbanda, Macumba, Quimbanda and the religion Yoruba? Obviously someone merged Santeria into this article, but should these other entries be merged? If not please explain the differences if you are able in the entry. *Hint* I'm not writing a paper or essay on this subject. I am looking at it solely from the POV of a Wikipedia editor and the fact that this issue is not addressed is confusing to readers. If no one editing the entry knows, I'm going to throw a request for an expert template on the respective page(s). WeniWidiWiki 16:42, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Vodun comes from the practices of the Dahomey people. Someone initiated in Vodun would NOT be permitted into the ritual room area of a Santeria ritual. The songs they sing, the names of the Loa and the way they perform rituals is VERY different from what Santeros practice. Except for the fact that both come from West Africa, got carried over during the slave trade and have a henotheistic structure, they have nothing else in common.

Ewetuga.atare (talk) 22:45, 8 January 2013 (UTC) ___________________ Vodou and Lukumi are separate belief systems and share few similarities, other than the fact that they were both spread from Africa during the transatlantic slave trade and that they are both very beautiful traditions rich in truisms. Vodou actually has no connection to the Yoruba people, but instead can probably be traced to Guinui, Kongo, Dahomy, and other areas. Those who serve the Vodou have little in common with any of the Yoruba-derived traditions, which emphasize serving the many Orisha. The only entity which people from both groups serve, to the best of my knowledge, are various aspects of Esu and Legba, who make communication between humans and the spirit world possible (although there are differences in the ways the different groups see and describe him - or her - and also there are different names by which he is called - he is indeed tricky!). Additionally, both traditions stress some type of formal relationships with dead ancestors. I am barely tapping the differences between these groups - there are different spiritual goals, different creation stories, different initiation rituals, and so on. In addition, there are many, many variants variants within these groups, depending on lineage, location, history, and so on.

Some cases turned deadly
The off hand reference to "some cases turned deadly" needs to be clarified and cited. Jeffr 18:27, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Done by 68.194.26.4 on Apr 22

I do not mean to offend anyone, and I am sure every contributor's intentions are good, but I must write in plain terms about this reference. Unfortunately, the clarification called for above only amplified the irrelevant and sensationalist note about "some cases (turning) deadly." Cases of what? It's a sad truth that madness often takes on religious ideation. In an article on, say, the Baptist Church, would it be appropriate to list the crimes of white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant schizophrenics who have murdered their own children believing they were obeying orders from the Christian God? Of course not. Then why should an article on Santeria or Lucumi (they really should be separate!) be burdened with this tale of a murder that has nothing doctrinally or organizationally to do with either true religion? The out-of-proportion focus on animal sacrifice is bad enough, though probably inevitable, but there is no excuse -- other than Eurocentric prejudice/ignorance and the lurid influence of too many zombie movies -- for this inclusion. It should be removed. Editguy 12:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Leaving Lukumi
Can anybody elaborate on how, if they can, practicing santerians leave the church?

Not sure what you are asking. If you are mean if there is some kind of culty prohibition of leaving this tradition, or threats of curses etc, the answer is no, there are not any such weird prohibitions or repercussions to leaving, if you want to leave, leave. That being said this tradition it no more immune too the typical level of nuts than any other religion. So I am sure out there there are a few control freaks that use fear etc. to control their houses and keep people from leaving.

If you are asking what is the “proper” way of leaving the tradition or an Ile, and by proper I mean respectful and appropriate, well that differs from Ile to Ile. Typically it involves returning you Elekes and making an offering to your Iya/Baba’s Orisha. If you have warrior and you want leave both the house as well as the tradition as a whole, well the proper thing would be to return the warriors to your Iya/Baba. If you are initiated, similarly your Iya/Baba would typical it take your pots back and/or divine on their proper disposal.

In terms of closing thing out with the Orisha themselves, any elevations you have been through will typically involve a reading, so I would recommend reviewing those readings and dealing with any outstanding issues, and discussing them with your Iya/Baba. House joinings etc tyipically invovle you making certain commitments to the Ile community as a whole. Iles have various ways of dissolving those; either through a meeting with the Ile members as a group, or contacting them individually. Again your Iya/Baba would make that determination.

Sometimes there are situations where the relationship with your Iya/Baba has degraded to a point where you may feel you cannot do any of the above. I would encourage you to at least make an attempt to contact him/her to let them know that you want to leave, and you want to do it in a respectful manner and ask them what they want that process to be. If this is not possible, or you are not given a way to leave respectfully you can contact another priest, although this will put them in an awkward position, they may be able to do a reading for you and give you some direction. If that is not possible, then just do your best. Mail your elekes to your Iya/Baba with an offering, throw to your warriors/Orisha and ask them how they want to be released. However, please do not let fears of awkwardness, or not wanting to see your Iya/Baba upset discourage you from contacting them so you can leave properly. It may be extremely uncomfortable in the moment, but I guarantee you that you will be winning your Iya/Baba’s respect and gratitude for having the courage to go through the proper steps.

--Ayokunle 05:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Article name
If the religion is "most widely known as" Santeria, shouldn't the article be titled Santeria or Santería? According to WP:NC we should use the more familiar name.--Cúchullain t c 06:12, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I think the proper name for the religion would be Regla de Ocha. Since it's popular name is Santeria, that would also be an apropiate name. I don't think that Lukumi is the best name for this article. Whatcanuexpect 23:27, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the name of the article should be Santería, with an additional redirect from Regla de Ocha. I will take care of this within the next few days since there doesn't seem to be much reason or argument to leave it as is. --Mcmachete 08:19, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

For whatever it is worth, MCmachete is basically right. In Cuba and Miami, it is referred to as La Religion or The Religion. It is also referred to as Santeria by practitioners. Regla de Ocha is what is used in scholarly texts or in any formal written work. In casual conversation it is never referred to as Regla de Ocha.

Santeria is NOT a syncretism. NO catholic theology or rituals are used in the secret rituals not open to outsiders. Catholicism is used as a camoflage. In the rituals themselves, catholic terms are not used. That really should be corrected.

Ewetuga.atare (talk) 22:45, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Remove African-American Template
Lukumi/Santeria are not exclusive to the African-American community. In fact most of the practitioners of these two traditions are Latino (and no they are not the same) They are both derived from an AFRICAN tradition (which is NOT the same as African-AMERICAN) the African Diaspora is a worldwide phenomenon. African and people of African dissent live in every single country on this planet. North Americans please get a grip, there is a world full of other countries out there. (unsigned - User:Ayokunle 17:39, 30 June 2006)
 * African-American in Afro-American Religions was used in the meaning of African customs in the Americas, not as a synomym of black US citizen. As you could tell from the content of that template, it deals with traditional African religions and the way they were translated in the new world. - Qyd 01:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There are two templates on the page; Afro-American Religions, which as Qyd noted is appropriate, and African American topics sidebar, which as Ayokunle noted is inappropriate. I assume the latter was a mistake, not a geniune belief that this is an African American (US) topic? Here is the diff: . ntennis 03:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * fair enough, sorry for getting testy, I can understand how it wass an honest mistake. Thanks for the edit.--Ayokunle 05:14, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Just as an interesting note, in Havana, where I was initiated, most practitioners ARE Afro-Cuban. I was the lightest skinned person in the room when I was initiated. In Miami, most of the practitioners are not as dark skinned, even if they are partially Afro Cuban (having some immediate ancestor who was black). That is not to say that some African-Americans who are not Latin have not adopted Santeria. It is only to say that between Cuba and Miami, slightly different types of people have embraced the religion.

Ewetuga.atare (talk) 22:45, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Why the inclusion of a Criminal Case?
I have an issue with the paragraph starting

"While most of the rituals performed in Lukumi are performed safely ...."

Of course there are irresponsible people who are also adherents to Lukumni or Santeria; just as there of in every other tradition. In fact exorcisms are more of a chrstian practice than anything done is Santeria, and in that context there have been similar unfortunate incident where misguided, irresponsible people have caused harm to others under the guise of helping them. Case in point the book, then movie “The Exorcism of Emily Rose” where a christian priest’s intervention resulted in the demise of one Emily Rose.

So what begs the question is, why did the creators of this page feel that the inclusion of the paragraph was relevant to a description of Santeria? I would suggest that it partially if not wholly a result a christian/Hollywood perception/portrayal of African Spirituality as populated by red-eyed “wild” people running around with their shirts off, bathed in blood and doing crazy things to one another. Within this paradigm the aforementioned paragraph is an attempt to point out that “most of the rituals performed in Lukumi are performed safely” and is a benign, even progressive observation. The problem is that the paradigm is distorted and inappropriate. The inclusion of this paragraph is completely irrelevant to truly imparting pertinent information about this tradition and in my humble opinion needs to be removed.

--Ayokunle 05:11, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Dietary restrictions, "crowning", etc.
I'm definitely no expert on this topic, but I had heard some interesting things about rituals pairing individual practitioners to particular Orishas, and certain dietary restricions related to this. Can anyone expand on that a bit (either in this article or in the Orisha articles)? -- SB_Johnny | talk 23:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

because divination has indicated that the person may develop intestinal problems in the future.
 * There are numerous food taboos - some related to food that are served to Orisha (like no salt in food for Obatala) and others related to Odu (example - not eating hot spicy foods)

These taboos are given because everything is a way of increasing or decreasing "ache" - and Odu (dviniation) can indicate things that will be detrimental to your ache, just as it can indicate things that will enhance your ache. Ache is a Yoruba/Lukumi concept of power, health and divine grace. DeeOlive 22:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The food taboos are personal and are determined for each individual on the third day of initiation through divination. Not everyone has the same food taboos. The food taboos are called egwe, by the way. Some people have no food taboos, while others are given many.

Ewetuga.atare (talk) 22:45, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Slight Cultural Bias
On a couple of points, the beliefs were described as a contrast to the Judeo-Christian tradition (ex. no devil, no original sin). Comparative religion has its place, but I think it's more respectful of the religion to define it in terms of what it is, rather than what it is not. Perhaps the comparisons could be removed and the language could be made more explicit about what the beliefs are to decrease confusion with Christian beliefs. If the contrast to Christian teachings is left in, I think it should be sectioned off from the positive definition. Voskoboinikov 20:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

move. --  tariq abjotu  22:32, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Lukumí → Santería – Santería is the more common name for the religion. Cúchullain t/ c 18:51, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Survey
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~


 * Support as nominator.--Cúchullain t/ c 18:51, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose - In Cuba, "Santeria" is often used as a general term for african inspired religions (much like Macumba in Brazil), and may include Lukumi/Regla de Ocha, Palo Mayombe/Palo Monte/Regla de Palo/Palo de Congo. "Lukumi" is specific for the orisha related faith. Qyd 19:46, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Support most common name. If there are differences, have different articles. If not, have them under the common name. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 03:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. Qyd makes the case for two articles, and he should divide them appropriately; but having one article here, and Santeria a redirect to it, is certainly wrong. Septentrionalis 18:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment that would be harder to make if the Lukumi material was on the Santeria page. Also, consider the perceived derogatory nuance of the term "Santeria" (as pointed out in the article). As for creatig a separate page for Santeria, sorry, I'm not up to the task. --Qyd 20:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment However, I note that the Palo Monte page uses Santeria to refer to the religion featuring Orishas, to distinguish from the subject of that page ! -- Beardo 16:13, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Support as for Justin. E    Asterion  u talking to me? 02:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I have NEVER heard of Palo, or Ifa or Abakua being referred to or included in being called Santeria either in Miami or in Havana or Matanzas, Cuba. Palo and Santeria are two very different religions. Ewetuga.atare (talk) 22:48, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
Add any additional comments
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Hi, I'd like this sentence to include "universally". It is also a VERY long sentence ! The fact here is that not all Cuban Babalawo believe in the exclusion of women in IFA (Iyanifa), In fact my group is a leader in promoting women in IFA largely because our leader holds Olofi in both Havana and Oyo. (Lazaro Pijuan). Although its true the majority of (Cuban/ Lucumi) Babalawo don't support the admission of woman in IFA many do, and this movement continues to gain steam. Therefore, adding universal will be less of a blanket statement. Cubaking (talk) 23:43, 23 May 2011 (UTC) In the recent years, the practice of traditional Yoruba Ifa priests (from Nigeria) has come to the diaspora of initiating women to be Iyanifa or "Mother of Destiny", but santeria or "lucumi" practitioners do not UNIVERSALLY accept this practice as dictated by the Odu Ifa Irete Untelu which states women cannot be in the presence of Olofin or Igba Iwa Odu and so cannot be initiated as divining priestesses.

Quotation marks
There are an awful lot of quotation marks used in this article for things other than quotations, and used in a way that looks like POV. For instance, the article describes as "Christian," with quote marks, people who would have described themselves as Christian - forming the POV implication that maybe they weren't really. That's just one example; there are many. The overall tone is at best illiterate, at worst mocking. I'm inclined to simply go through and remove all quotation marks that are not being used for quotations - but there may be a few places where they could reasonably be spared, to mark terms that are being defined or used in nonstandard ways. Any thoughts? 67.158.73.188 01:17, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Allusions in Pop Culture?
There's only one allusion, and that was a song that's not even about Santeria. I move that we delete that section.

someone should include the comic book characters the Santerians. they were main characters in Daredevil: Father, and i'd like to know what a real santerian would feel about them.

Ibutsu 02:36, 29 September 2007 (UTC):

Dexter in the Dark, the recently released third book in the Dexter series of books, references Santeria initially as a potential motive to murders that are being investigated by the Miami-Dade police. The reference is made when they discover two bodies that had been burned and the heads removed and replaced with ceramic bull heads. Dexters' sister suspects that the murders may have had something to do with Santeria and/or rituals associated with it, Dexter however is doubtful of the relation between Santeria and the murders as the symbolism does not seem to match the symbolism used in the practice of Santeria.

"African-Yoruba" words
WTF is up with this article's second sentence? I don't know any Yoruba, but I doubt that "la religión" is a phrase in that language. Call it a hunch. And why the hell is it called "African-Yoruba"? If you didn't know that Yoruba are originally from Africa, there's a link right in the friggin' sentence--and it's plastered all over the rest of the article itself.

Sorry for the annoyance, but for Cubans/Puerto Ricans/Dominicans it has kind of a familiar air. So much on our "history," especially the African part, seems to be written by poets wanting to "celebrate" our "beautiful heritage," etc., instead of people wanting to report with the seriousness and dispassion of, say, an essay on Austrian history (it's especially true for the stuff written in English, to help kids in New Jersey find their ethnic identity). And here...two sentences into the damn article, and we're already in bullshit mode.

(Postscript: That whole sentence is just awful, now that I read it. A vast manifestation of Caribbean rhythms, music, verbal slang, and culture in general? No shit. I'm a Catholic, and my religion has its own associated music, slang, culture, etc. (Ooh...exotic!) Does that mean that "Catholicism" isn't the word for the religion proper? Cut out all the condescending mandatory-freshman-reading-list horsecrap, and take this faith seriously like any other religion.)

In fairness, much of the rest of the article is surprisingly good. I hope users will take my grumpy rant in stride, as a cautionary tale. (And I'll change the sentence myself, if no one objects.)205.212.73.97 13:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

References missing?
There's a nice "Further reading section" but shouldn't there be references occasionally, throughout the article?

I have a few books on Santeria at home, and had stumbled across a different Orisha a bit ago, that I'd wanted to add some references to. I found this write-up accidently and, since I'm new to Wikipedia, I felt I shouldn't put the unreferenced tag on here.Rhesusmonkeyboy 14:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Just Curious
I'm curious as to whether santeria was persecuted in the cuban revolution as well as the other religions of Cuba. Could anybody find that out?

--- Mostly Santeria was left alone. It was considered the religion of the lower classes during the Cuban Revolution. Since it didn't use formal church buildings and was a "home/domestic" religion, it avoided direct persecution. SOme people hid their being part of it because it was looked down upon, but it mostly escaped direct persecution.

Ewetuga.atare (talk) 22:45, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Ritual slaughter article
I am wondering if someone with knowledge of the subject could add a section to the Ritual slaughter article explaining how ritual slaughter is performed in Santeria animal sacrifices. Thanks, --Shirahadasha 17:44, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I have written a very long FAQ on Santeria aka Lukumi, Lucumi or La Regla de Ocha which is posted on various pages on the net. I promised a long time ago to help edit this article and reneged (my apologies) but still have major issues with much of the content.

The "ritual slaughter" reference is offensive - yes there is ritual sacrifice of animals, but "slaughter" is pejorative. All of the offerings to Orisha - animal or otherwise fall into the category of "ebo". Ebo includes plants, foods (adimu) flowers, water (omi tutu) and blood (eje) The sacrifice of chickens,doves and in some cases goats or rams is in line with many other world religious practice, but too much has been made of this. See the arguments in CLBA vs Hialiah - resolved by the Supreme court.

The roots of Lukumi are from the Yoruba speaking peoples of West Africa - who had various sub-ethnic groups. Lukumi evolved out of contact between enslaved Africans brought to Cuba with other African ethnic groups, and the diffusion of the Roman Catholic rituals of the slaveholders. This process is often referred to as syncretism, though many anthropologists dispute this use of syncretic. Others refer to the use of some aspects of Roman Catholic ritual as "masking". Elements of contact with surviving indigenous Caribs, and with Chinese indentured labor on the island also affected Lukumi ritual practices.

Though popularly referred to as "Santeria" and Orisha are often popularly referred to as "saints", however Shango is not Saint Barbara, nor is Babaluaye Saint Lazarus.

Since slaves In Cuba were not allowed to practice their religions openly, and slaves were also baptized Catholic by their Spaniard enslavers, the practice of Yoruba religion had to incorporate elements of Catholicism in order to survive. Over time - descendants of Africans in Cuba continued to practice Catholicism - but to also continued their earlier beliefs. There was diffusion of Catholicism into Yoruba belief. Slaves were allowed to join societies called Cabildos, which were devoted to specific saints. Members of the Cabildos paraded - and formed groups ostensibly devoted to the Catholic images, while still practicing as priests in the older Yoruba tradition. These Lukumi priests, as a result, were called “santeros”.

Voudou or Vodoun is an West African religion brought to the New World by the Fon people of Dahomey, and though there are similarities to Lukumi, they are different in genesis.

There is no one leader. The Lukumi system is organized around “iles” (houses of worshippers) or “ramas” (lineages of worshippers) and since the religion is hierarchical - the leaders are elders, or those with elder status from the various ramas or iles. Priests are Oloshas, or Babaloshas/Iyaloshas (Baba is "father" in Yoruba/Lukumi, Iya is "mother".  If a priest has initiated others ("birthed" someones Orishas) into the pristhood they are referred to as Babalorishas or Iyalorishas.  Some iles also have a relationship to priests of Ifa - the healing/divinatory system originating in Ile Ife, in Yorubaland, who are priests of the Orisha Orunmila, and who are called Babalawos - father's of the mysteries.   Babalawos are diviners and herbalists who are priests of Orumila/Ifa who do not become possessed by Orisha and play a meditating role in Lukumi practice.  Titles

Oluwo - A Babalawo (priest of Ifa) who has also been initiated to a specific Orisha

Oba/Oriate A priest highly trained in cowry shell divination who also functions as a Master of ceremonies for ritual

Iyalorishas and Babalorishas - priests who have initiated godchildren

Oloshas - priests who have not initiated godchildren

Omo Aña - A fraternity of male priests dedicated to playing the sacred Aña drums (fundamento bata)

Akpwon - an expert in ritual songs who leads the singing in ritual drumming and ceremonies

Iyawos (brides of the Orisha) - initiates in their first year

Aborisha (sometimes called aleyos) non- priest members of an ile

more to come DeeOlive 22:18, 4 November 2007 (UTC) Denise Some corrections: Anyone who is initiated is an Olorisha. The terms Iyalorisha and Babalorisha are not used exclusively for someone who has godchildren. Aborishas have either Warriors or Beads. And, Aleyos is the word used for EVERYONE who is not initiated, whether they are an Aborisha or not.

Ewetuga.atare (talk) 22:45, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Article Introduction
"The Santería/Yoruba tradition is comprised of a hierarchical structure according to priesthood level and authority. Orisha "ile" or temples are usually governed by Orisha Priests known as Babalorishas "father of orisha" or Iyalorishas "mothers of orisha", and serve as the junior Ile or second in the hierarchical religious structure. The Babalorishas and Iyalorishas are referred to as "Santeros(as)" and if they function as diviners of the Orishas they can be considered Oriates. The highest level of achievement for males is to become a priest of Ifa (ee-fah). Ifa Priests receive Orunmila who is the Orisha of Prophecy, Wisdom and all Knowledge. Ifa Priests are known by their titles such as "Babalawo" or "Father Who Knows the Secrets". Ifa Ile or Temples of Ifa serve as the senior to all Orisha Ile in the Traditional Orisha-Ifa / Santeria Community. The Sacred Oracle of Ika-Fun or Ika Ofun serves as confirmation."

This intro really makes little sense (the quote above starts with the second sentence) - the religion should be introduced without going immediately into the hierarchy - and much of what is written here about hierarchy is wrong - or unclear. Most of Lukumi is not Ifa - this is a current trend among African-Americans who are going to Nigeria to be initiated in African Yoruba traditional compounds.

There are many levels of both male and female achievement and there are some Lukumi iles that do not work with Ifa priests (Babalawos) at all. Babalawos are not senior to Omo Añas- the drumming priesthood, nor are they senior to the head of an Ile, nor to elder Oriates. They act more as outside arbitrators in many cases where divinatory messages are unclear.

Whoever wrote this is a showing a clear gender bias - and has excluded other elements of the various priesthoods because they don't seem to understand the complexities or the interrelationships.

Would suggest that this entire segment be removed to a section on structure - after revision.

DeeOlive 22:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Beliefs and rituals
"The sacred belief system of the Lukumi prevent non-adherents from participating in ceremonial rites. Nearly all Lukumi ceremonies are reserved for priests and the newly initiated."

Wrong! There are levels of ceremony, and many aleyos (outsiders) regularly attend "bembes" or "tambores" (drummings) held for the Orisha, where mounted priests (in trance) dispense advice and healing. Aleyos go to diviners for readings, and they also participate in iles (houses) where they do work at ceremonies - though not behind the white curtain that deliniates sacred space.

Lukumi rites include receiving of elekes (beads), marriages, yearly celebrations of initiation (called Ocha birthdays) attended by believers and non-believers alike. There are rituals involving the ancestors (Egun)that anyone can participate in, and one of the largest healing rituals is an "awan" for Babaluaye. One was even held in an Episcopal church in the Bronx for people infected and affected by HIV/AIDS. Every year in NY for the last 18 years the Yemaya Egbe holds a festival/ceremony at the beach - open to all.

Initiations to the priesthood are closed to non-priests - but initiations are not the only ceremonial rites, and plenty non-priests work at the initiations, cooking, preparing other items (albeit outside the sanctuary), and many non-initiates are drummers, singers, bead makers etc.

"Santería was traditionally transmitted orally, although in the last decade a number of books have been published on the tradition. "

Well - yes the tradition was oral, but there have been major scholarly works published on Afro-Cuban traditions as early as 1906 (Los Negros Brujos - Fernando Ortiz) Lydia Cabrera published numerous seminal ethnographies on Lukumi - starting in the 1980's, and in the last 20 years there are now thousands of recordings, countless books and there are internet mailing lists like Orishalist, newsgroups (alt.religion.orisha founded 1996) OrishaNet, OLU - Organization of Lukumi Unity (to name just a few).

I have a very long bibliograhy and discography that I give my anthropology students who are researching Lukumi and other related New World traditions. The further reading list at the bottom of the page is terrible. 16 Cowries is not about Lukumi - it is a wonderful study by Bascom of Yoruba (Nigerian) divination. In fact - few of the books/articles listed are about Santeria/Lukumi.

"Practices include animal offering, dance, sung invocations to the orishas. Of these the most controversial is animal sacrifice. Followers of Santería point out that ritual slaughter involved is conducted in a safe and humane manner. The priests charged with doing the sacrifice are trained in humane ways to perform ritual slaughter."

See my prior objections to the term "slaughter".

"Trees are also offered to the orisha. Drum music and dancing are a form of prayer and will sometimes induce a trance state in an initiated priest, who become possessed and will channel the orisha, giving the community and individuals information, perform healing etc. (see Yoruba music). One's ancestors (egun) are held in high esteem in Lukumí. All ceremonies and rituals in the Lukumi religion begin with paying homage to one’s ancestors."

Egun and Orisha are always written in caps. Trees are NOT offered to Orishas. The author references "see Yoruba music". There are hundreds and hundreds of Lukumi albums, cds that could be referenced here - not Nigerian Yoruba music.

"The Yoruba believe in a creator who is called Olofi (God)."

Lukumi's refer to the Creator first as Olodumare, then Olofin, and Olorun.

"There is no specific belief in a devil since the Yoruba belief system is not a dualistic philosophy - good versus evil, God versus a devil."

I dont know why the issue of Christian devil is brought up here - more important to discuss what Lukumi's believe in:

Reverence for the ancestors. Each person is born with an Ori (or destiny) that they have chosen. Belief that there are mediators between oneself and Olodumare (the Creator), called Orisha. All elements of nature and all positive actions contain and generate "ache". One can change negative energies or life situations, or enhance positive ones by making "ebo" (offerings) to Orisha

The entire section below was written or taken from Yoruba discourse - NOT Lukumi. "Instead the universe is seen as containing forces of expansion and forces of contraction. These forces interact in complex ways to create the universe. All things are seen to have positive aspects, or Iré, and negative aspects, or Ibi. Nothing is seen as completely good or completely evil but all things are seen as having different proportions of both. Similarly no action is seen as universally as wrong or right but rather can only be judged with the context and circumstances in which it takes place. In this context the individual is seen as made up of both positive/constructive impulses as well as negative/destructive impulses. Similarly, an individual's talents and facilities are seen as having a potential of both positive and negative expression. Therefore, there is a great deal of attention and focus on each individual striving to develop good character and doing good works. Good character, or Iwapele, is defined as doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do, not out of fear of retribution or as a way of seeking rewards, but simply because it is right. All humans are seen as having the potential of being good and blessed people (no original sin), although they have a potential to make evil choices, and the universe is seen as benevolent."

I really think this entire article needs to be scrapped - or moved to another page called Yoruba religion.

DeeOlive 23:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Leftovers from a santeria animal offering - jpeg
Interesting that this is the ONLY picture on the page. And that it is called "leftovers".

You should not have a picture of Orisha during a closed ritual up at all - if those are Orisha soperas.

There are so many photos available - of Lukumi priests, worshippers, ritual objects, instruments, dancers and art work on Lukumi Orishas.

YouTube has wonderful video clips as well.

I am extremely upset and offended that this is the sole visual representation of Lukumi, and that someone has violated the taboo of taking photos of Orisha inside of Igbodu (sacred space). and that Wikipedia has allowed this sacrilege.

This is the equivalent of posting photos of the inside of a sacred NA moon lodge. DeeOlive 00:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Unclear Sections
Under "History" the article says


 * Today thousands of Americans participate in this religion. Some are fully committed priests and priestesses, others are "godchildren" or members of a particular house-tradition, many are clients seeking help with their everyday problems. Many are of Hispanic and Caribbean descent but as the religion moves out of the inner cities and into the suburbs; a growing number are of African-American and European-American heritage. As the Ifá religion of Africa was recreated in the Americas it was transformed.

which seems quite out of place considering the preceeding text, especially since it appears to be referring to residents of the United States. This being the case, this bit looks to be redundant as well as out of place because the article already mentions the areas where the religion is practised.

Later in the history section, it talks about Santería and Catholicism, and I can't tell whether it means to say that Catholicism was just used as "cover" for Yoruban beliefs, or if it means to say that Catholic beliefs were actually adopted as an integral part of Santería. Namaps (talk) 22:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Still unhappy with the title!
Well, I know we've been over the issue, but it won't lie down. The first phrase: Santería, also known as La Regla de Lukumi (Lukumi's Rule), and The Way of the Saints is a complete mess. Its lack of clarity leads to quite a few problems in the later text. Cubans have for a long time been using the terms Lucumi for the former Yoruban people and their religious practices and Regla de Ocha as a synonym for the religion. The former Congolese Bantu religion is called Palo in Cuba, sometimes Palo Monte or Palo Mayombe. The 'way of the saints' is not bad if you must have something in English, but is a bit of a mouthful!

Santeria was originally used for those whose African beliefs were synchretized with Catholicism, so that each African spirit was joined mentally with a specific Catholic saint. I say Catholic advisedly, not just because the Christian church in Cuba is Catholic, but because most forms of Protestanism would reject both African spirits and Catholic saints. 'Santeria' has become, with the passage of time, a kind of catch-all or cover word, like Salsa in music, but it really should not be used for the genuine forms of African religion, especially since they have perfectly good names already.

Unfortunately for simplicity, Africans in Brazil (condomble), Haiti (vodu) and elsewhere have chosen other words for their somewhat different but still African religions. But that is no excuse for saying that Santeria and Lucumi are the same thing. They're not. Macdonald-ross (talk) 15:47, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

[apologies for the absence of accents, but WP don't seem to offer them now on Talk pages!]

Blanket Statement Cubaking (talk) 23:47, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I'd like this sentence to include "universally". It is also a VERY long sentence ! The fact here is that not all Cuban Babalawo believe in the exclusion of women in IFA (Iyanifa), In fact my group is a leader in promoting women in IFA largely because our leader holds Olofi in both Havana and Oyo. (Lazaro Pijuan). Although its true the majority of (Cuban/ Lucumi) Babalawo don't support the admission of woman in IFA many do, and this movement continues to gain steam. Therefore, adding universal will be less of a blanket statement. Cubaking (talk) 23:47, 23 May 2011 (UTC) In the recent years, the practice of traditional Yoruba Ifa priests (from Nigeria) has come to the diaspora of initiating women to be Iyanifa or "Mother of Destiny", but santeria or "lucumi" practitioners do not UNIVERSALLY accept this practice as dictated by the Odu Ifa Irete Untelu which states women cannot be in the presence of Olofin or Igba Iwa Odu and so cannot be initiated as divining priestesses.

need to expand the lead
Great work on this article. A note to the GA nominator - it won't pass GA unless the lead is significantly expanded. For an article of this size, two to three paragraphs will be needed to summarize all the main content of the article. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:15, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Notice the final letter: patakí and not pataki
Notice the final letter: patakí and not pataki. There are two articles: Patakí stories, and Pataki disambiguation.--DThomsen8 (talk) 21:07, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

"Fulani"
The Fulani language is not "Hamito-Semitic" (an obsolete and misleading name for the huge and very diverse group of languages usually now called Afro-Asiatic in English.) It actually belongs to the Atlantic branch of Niger-Congo, the group which covers most of sub-Saharan Africa.

The misclassification of Fulani as "Hamitic" has an unfortunate history behind it, in nineteenth-century colonialist ideas that the dominant group in the old Sokoto Caliphate must be more "advanced" than their "Sudanic" subjects; the linguistic facts were misinterpreted to fit the preconceptions. All this was blown away by Greenberg many decades ago, but lives on as a zombie in works by those unfamiliar with modern linguistics.

Moreover, it should not be necessary nowadays to point out that linguistic affiliation is not the same as biological genetic descent. There are Afro-Asiatic languages; there are no Afro-Asiatic peoples. Nor does language determine culture: Afro-Asiatic speakers include nomads indeed; also from early times hunter-gatherers, agriculturalists, city based traders, prophets, empire building conquerors ... and nowadays university professors, pop stars and oil billionnaires. Some are black Africans; others are Maltese ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bargainsale (talk • contribs) 00:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Unsourced claim
Hi. I have located the entry point of the section that you have now rightly removed, which took a while as it was done by editing the whole page, so it does not appear under edits to the History section. It was introduced by Latin Wolf here. However, it was removed here, but re-introduced here by Afro-Eurasian, an editor investigated and blocked in connection with the use of numerous socks. The same editor reintroduced it again here, after it was deleted in the previous edit. Some of his other known socks have also done some edits to the page. Before that, it was removed when the page was almost blanked here which was reverted here. As for Latin Wolf, please see my post here. Best regards, Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 11:46, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 05:27, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Ochá or Ocha ?
I recently changed Ochá to Ocha. I'm not sure of these changes (and I started to explain that in the summary when my finger accenidentally pressed the Enter key), though the correct spelling should be without the acute accent, according to the Spanish Wikipedia. --Braaark (talk) 20:57, 25 May 2018 (UTC)