Talk:Saori Ishioka

Kickboxing/Shoot Boxing
There are throws - which factor heavily in scoring - and standing submissions in shoot boxing. It is most definitely not the same as kickboxing and including the records in one, single group is incorrect.

Kickboxing bouts do not permit throws or submissions. It is generally accepted that kickboxing and Muay Thai fight records can be counted under one single heading, though they are technically different, but kickboxing and shoot boxing are vastly different. Thus, totals should be kept separately, and they are even done so on the Japanese Wiki pages for many fighters who have competed in both disciplines (including Saori Ishioka herself). FemaleMMAFan (talk) 23:54, 26 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Please check Kickboxing, Shoot boxing and WikiProject Kickboxing. Notice that shoot boxing is a spin-off of kickboxing just as K-1. Take note that, for example, for notable practitioners such as Andy Souwer, shootboxing and K-1 are part of the kickboxing record. What the Japanese Wiki does is not relevant to the English Wikipedia. The Japanese Wikipedia rarely has the same treatment for these type of articles. If you check Andy Souwer's Japanese article, you'll note that he has his shoot boxing record within the kickboxing record as in the English article. But if you think that shoot boxing should be treated differently, I invite you to to discuss it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Kickboxing. The WikiProject is active once again and there is a current effort to update the guidelines, so, if you think that shoot boxing records should be kept separately from other kickboxing variants, this is a good moment to discuss it. I will not revert back your edit until the guidelines are updated, but bear in mind that I will change her record depending on what consensus establishes once the new guidelines are completed. Jfgslo (talk) 00:52, 27 May 2011 (UTC)


 * That is understandable, but I suppose that the best argument that I can make is this: If you are looking at a kickboxing record and see a win/loss by "submission (guillotine choke)," surely that is going to look like a mistake. For fights ending in decisions or knockouts, the distinction between a kickboxing record and a shoot boxing record is fairly negligible, but given that shoot boxing allows for submissions and decision victories where combatants literally do not even need to throw a single strike (they can just throw their opponent repeatedly for "Shoot points"), it seems highly illogical to me for the two to be combined. It certainly requires more work to keep them separate, but it is definitely worth it when striving for accuracy. FemaleMMAFan (talk) 20:19, 29 May 2011 (UTC)