Talk:Sara Braun

DYK problem
This is a troubling DYK: Template:Did you know nominations/Sara Braun, which I believe should be removed or fixed ASAP. The hook says that: The article says that: Neither does the text support that Sara Braun herself was personally involved, nor do the cited sources. This is an alarming inaccuracy. It appears that the DYK nominator combined text from two different sources to reach this conclusion, which is original research. This level of inaccuracy and original research calls into question the rest of the article, which should be carefully reviewed. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  03:11, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Sara Braun ... was involved in the genocide of the Selk'nam people.
 * In the 21st century, the Historical Truth Commission of 2008 and related scholarship uncovered the involvement of the Braun and Menéndez families in the genocide of the Selk'nam people, calling into question their laudable reputation.




 * Sandy Georgia (Talk)  03:13, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Sandy Georgia (Talk)  03:14, 15 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Sandy, sorry, I was sleeping. I moved this thread from above and added the refs without which we get no link, only ref error messages. If you look at the DYK nomination (linked above), you'll see that I share your reservations, and would have preferred a hook about the woman.
 * Now to the hook: would "was involved" really mean the same thing as "was personally involved"? I understand it in a more general way. Sorry if my lack of English caused you trouble. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:56, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the repairs to my post, Gerda. It is not related to your English; no matter how we wordsmith it, the sources do not name her at all, while the hook specifically does.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  11:54, 15 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The hook specifically says Braun and her business partners were involved. Nothing in the hook or article says she ordered anything personally nor actually murdered anyone personally. Numerous sources confirm the Sociedad Explotadora de Tierra del Fuego and its partners sought permission from the government to rid their lands of the indigenous people and ordered native executions. She was the largest individual shareholder and is named, others specifically named were her brother and Menéndez. I drew no conclusions, sources cited in the article and others not used but available on the web state the information.,,,,, Opposite time zone from Gerda, and I am headed to bed, sorry to be so late in replying. SusunW (talk) 07:26, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Hello, SusunW. Your words, "She was the largest shareholder" and "others specifically named were her brother and Menéndez" seem to indicate that you realize she was not specifically named (while, curiously, others were). I've reviewed your sources. Many discuss her; none of them associate her specifically with the genocide. If you have a source that names her specifically, you should produce it and cite it. Combining statements from multiple sources to reach a conclusion not directly supported by any source is WP:SYNTH. When making an extraordinary claim, good sources should be used. Please review the policy WP:NOR:


 * "Wikipedia articles must not contain original research...facts...for which no reliable, published sources exist. This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources. To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented.
 * "Take care not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources....The only way you can show your edit is not original research is to cite a reliable published source that contains the same material....Drawing conclusions not evident in the reference is original research regardless of the type of source.
 * "Do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources"

If you have a phrase from a source that directly sources this material, and I missed it, please point out the specific text from the given source. The sources state the company was involved, the article states the families were involved, but the DYK hook states that she was involved; this is sensationalism beyond what the sources or the article state for the promotion of a hook. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  11:50, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * At any rate, since the material in the sensationalized hook is not even in the article, and the DYK is now off the page, there is little to be accomplished here other than education about SYNTH and the problems with sensationalizing on the mainpage via DYK. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  12:29, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry to have been off line for several days, but real life was busy. I am now a grand-aunt and will have limited internet access until after the first of the year. I did not omit that she was named along with her brother and Menéndez. First line in Moreno "Sara Braun Hamburger y José Menéndez Menéndez Parte de sus riquezas acumuladas la distribuyeron a instituciones de beneficencia, viudas, hospitales, servidores personales y para la educación. ¿Fueron actos reparatorios, de conciencia o mea culpa?" clearly names her. As you say, there is little to be done now. Hope you have a happy holiday season. SusunW (talk) 14:41, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * No need for apology; please enjoy the baby and the holiday. The first sentence in the source states that Sara and José donated to numerous institutions. (That is, Sara is directly named as a generous donor.) The second sentence asks a question about whether there were secondary motivations for these donations. No source on the page implicates Sara in the genocide. Extraordinary claims such as this should not appear in articles, and much less on the main page, without strong sources, and the hook extended beyond what the sources explicitly say, ala original research. Not only was the hook sensationalized original research, but the hook text is not found anywhere in the article, indicating a DYK fail.  Considering the sources are in Spanish, this kind of thing can happen innocently. We do not need to continue to belabor this, as this is no longer on the mainpage, but DYK has always had and probably always will have a penchant for sensationalized hooks.  As a DYKer, I hope you will at least be aware going forward to take greater care when implicating real people in awful things.  I have long reminded DYK that I can be pinged when help on Spanish-language sources is needed;  it appears to me that no one else read your sources.  Felices fiestas, Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  14:57, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Text removed
I added the quote of the Informe de la comision de verdad y memoria, about the implication of the Sociedad explotadora de tierra del fuego in the selknam genocide. I am chilean, i think is a shame of entire wikipedia, to have a Sara Braun like "good article" without a extensive destription in her implication in the selknam genocide. In the histography her like a hitler. She was the capitalist who destriyed a entire race, and the soil of tierra del fuego, only for money. She was the shareholder, se was one of the authors. If you want more biblography, i will give all evidence of her crimes. Wikipedia no is a place for whashing the history, or neglecting a genocide. The quote in spanish is: "La Sociedad Explotadora de Tierra del Fuego impulsó una práctica más agresiva en contra de los indígenas, ya que al ocupar la totalidad del territorio que le correspondía, y que era el centro del territorio selk'nam, introdujo ganado, erigió centros de trabajo y cercó los campos, restringiendo la movilidad de los pobladores originales... Para resguardar su propiedad la Sociedad contrató personal especializado para vigilar a los indígenas imponiendo una verdadera política de guerra (…) Este personal junto al de otras estancias sería el responsable directo, al menos, de la muerte de más de 300 indígenas"Fitmoos (talk) 00:30, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * , I removed your addition because direct translations are a violation of copyright. Also, if you can paraphrase the text in your own words, it would belong at an article on the company (Sociedad Explotadora de Tierra del Fuego) not here.  This article is about Sara Braun, and the source you provided never mentions her.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  00:52, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * please review WP:SYNTH and WP:OWN. The source never mentions Sara Braun (nor do any of the sources implicating her in the genocide).  The text you propose belongs at the Sociedad article.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  02:35, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

1. Not is a copyright violation, beacuse the The Informe of La Comisión de Verdad Histórica y Nuevo Trato is a public document, of the chilean state, have a public domain. Is made for this. And, a quote not is a copyright violation. Your acusation is only a excuse for a neglecting a genocide, the slavery, and the mass murder. Warning, maybe, you are commiting a crime

2. Sara Braun was the onwer of the tierra del fuego, and all land between 53 and 54 latitud (after the death of José Nogueira. (1845-1893)) and the owner of the la Sociedad Explotadora de Tierra del Fuego (SEDTF) :

In the text https://scielo.conicyt.cl/scielo.php?pid=S0718-22442012000100003&script=sci_arttext#nt5

(5) . "La SEDTF iniciada por José Nogueira, y proseguida por su viuda Sara Braun y su cuñado Mauricio Braun, abarcaba prácticamente todo el vasto territorio chileno comprendido entre los paralelos 53º y 54º de latitud sur "

en : "The SEDTF initiated by Jose Nogueira, and continued by his widow Sara Braun and his brother Mauricio Braun, covering virtually the entire Chilean vast territory between parallels 53º and 54º south latitude"

(6) MARTINIC, M.1973. Panorama de la colonización en Tierra del Fuego entre 1881 y 1900. Anales del Instituto de la Patagonia, 4 (1-3):5-69.

2.1 The SEDTF have a agreesive policy of colonization and extermination of the all (nature, peapole and indiginuos):

la Sociedad Explotadora de Tierra del Fuego (en adelante SEDTF) ... se formó el 31 de agosto de 1893, la segunda en 1903. La SEDTF, con un millón de hectáreas iniciales en Tierra del Fuego, devendrá en expansiva agresividad con el advenimiento del siglo XX. De tal suerte que al promediar la primera década absorberá por fusión a la Sociedad Riqueza de Magallanes en la que se habían fundido a su vez las compañías The Tierra del Fuego Sheep Farming Co. y The Philip Bay Sheep Farming Co., mientras procurará aunque infructuosamente adquirir los campos de Gente Grande. Sin embargo de este contratiempo la poderosa empresa sentará reales en la parte continental adquiriendo por compra o arrendamiento enormes porciones de campo.(5) Su masa de ovinos, a 1906, era de medio millón de cabezas.6

en: the Land Development society Fire (hereinafter SEDTF) ... formed on August 31, 1893, the second in 1903. The SEDTF, with one million hectares initial Earth Fire, will become expansive aggressiveness in the advent of the twentieth century. In such a way that the average the first decade absorbed by merger to Wealth Society Magellan which had merged in turn companies The Land of Fire Sheep Farming Co. and The Philip Bay Sheep Farming Co., while endeavor but fruitlessly People acquire fields Grande. But this setback lay the real powerhouse in mainland acquiring by purchase or lease portions huge field. (5) The mass of sheep, in 1906, was half a million head. (6)

She was the owner of the company and the land, she was one of the contractors of the selknam hunters (https://books.google.cl/books?id=DkPrnv2zymgC&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=%22sara+brown%22+selknam+-palacio+-opinion&source=bl&ots=thyVr4qK0p&sig=ACfU3U3SzJyKvmqCzRttPzIyROW1qg3FOg&hl=es&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiL7ezQwp3nAhVVGrkGHe4iBEUQ6AEwAHoECCAQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false). She is the intelectual author of the genocide, like hitler. She was in the top of the criminal organization called SEDTF, thence she have all responsability of the her company and her employees. You are neglecting responsability of genocide. This crime is called concealment or Cloaking. Reverse the edition, now.

2.2 : some of her filantropic mission was only a concealment of the genocide, like the funding of the dawson island salesian mission (by my doctoral advisor) its called "braun lie" (directly linking to Sara and Braun Family):

Pero, la "mentira Braun" (para darle un nombre) evidencia que los argumentos de Martinic (la única manera de asegurar el éxito de la empresa pastoril era eliminando definitivamente al indígena) y Bascope (el desierto biopolítico), son insuficientes. Más aun cuando leemos un reciente trabajo de éste último, sobre los Bridges, donde se sostiene que sí era posible compatibilizar estancia y mundo selk’nam. El libro de Lucas Bridges, El último confín de la tierra, nos muestra tanto la gestión de la violencia entre facciones [selk’nam] agudizada por la colonización y de su civilización en el trabajo estanciero, como la historia de una forma de vida civil nativa, distinta a la política colonial seguida tanto por los gobiernos argentino y chileno, como por los ganaderos y los misioneros salesianos que la circundaron. Si entre ellos se tramó la cacería, deportación, asilo y finalmente muerte de los fueguinos, la empresa de Bridges constituyó una garantía de vida.20

https://scielo.conicyt.cl/scielo.php?pid=S0718-22442012000100003&script=sci_arttext#n35 En: But the "lie Braun" (to give a name) evidence that the arguments of Martinic (the only way to ensure the success of the pastoral enterprise was definitely eliminating indigenous) and Bascope (biopolitical desert), are insufficient. Moreover when we read a recent work of this last on the Bridges, where holding it was possible to reconcile stay and selk'nam world. The book of Lucas Bridges, the ultimate ends of the earth, shows us both the management of factional violence [selk'nam] exacerbated by colonization and civilization in the work rancher, as the history of a form of civil life native, different from the colonial policy pursued by both the Argentine and Chilean governments, such as farmers and the Salesian missionaries that went around. If including hunting, deportation, asylum and eventually death of fueguinos was hatched, the company Bridges was a lifetime guarantee.

2.3 the company was under her onwership when she contracted hunters to kill. Here have a prove (1900):

6 "Entre los asesinos de indios mås conocidos se cuentan el cocés John Mc Rae... •No hemos enviado mis expedicionarios a cazarlos', escribfa Mr. Rigby, capataz de San Sebastiån en carta dirigida a Mauricio Braun en julio de 1900" (Massone, Mauricio: obra citada en bibliografia). un inglés llamado Saham (o Sam Ishlop) y un italiano llamado Peduzzi. Estos indiyiduos se ocupan pura y exclusivamente en la caza de indios, ya sea en territorio chi- leno o argentino... mediante una libra esterlina por cada individuo macho y 5 chelines por cada muchacho o mujer" (Ram6n Cortés, Jefe de Policia, en su Diario fechado el 5 de marzo de 1897, en poder de sus descendientes segün el sacerdote e historiador fue- guino Juan E. Belza. Otro testimonio referido a los aborigenes que ahogaron entre la marea y los fusiles en Cabo Perha dice: "Esos 10s hizo matar Chancho Colorado, Mc Lennan el verdadero nombre, administrador de los Menéndez". Otros de "los matadores los voy a nombrar: uno era José Diaz, algo de portugués por ahi. Otro se llamaba Kovasich, yugoeslavo. Alberto Niword, era OtrO, son tres, Sam Islop y Stewart, algo de malvinero por ahf. Que yo sé, que rnås 0 menos que 10s eonozco por mi mamå que 10s nom- br6 a todos... y hay varios mås que yo no me acuerdo" (Federico Eehelaite o Echeuline, de madre Selk"nam y padre noruego, falle- ci6 en 1980 a la edad de 75 aios, transcripü» del film "IÄs Onas, Vida y muerte en Tierra del Fuego", de A. Montes, A. Chapman y https://books.google.cl/books?id=DkPrnv2zymgC&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=%22sara+brown%22+selknam+-palacio+-opinion&source=bl&ots=thyVr4qK0p&sig=ACfU3U3SzJyKvmqCzRttPzIyROW1qg3FOg&hl=es&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiL7ezQwp3nAhVVGrkGHe4iBEUQ6AEwAHoECCAQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false J. Prelorån).

and this text, link directly, with first and last name the resposability of sara brown:

Sara Brown, de Punta Arenas (Chile), iniciaron dos dinastias criollas. Ya exterminados guanacos y lobos marinos, nuestros Selk'nam cazaron algunos "guanacos blancos chiqui- tos" (lanares) conforme Ia ley natural de su patria, pero result6 que éstos eran "propiedad privada" segün Ia nueva ley impuesta por el invasor, por 10 que fueron

https://books.google.cl/books?id=DkPrnv2zymgC&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=%22sara+brown%22+selknam+-palacio+-opinion&source=bl&ots=thyVr4qK0p&sig=ACfU3U3SzJyKvmqCzRttPzIyROW1qg3FOg&hl=es&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiL7ezQwp3nAhVVGrkGHe4iBEUQ6AEwAHoECCAQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

3. it maybe also implicated in murders to workers http://kcl.edicionesanarquistas.net/lpdf/l252.pdf

4. In conclusion: Noooo, because the responsability of a crime is to a natural person, never to a juridical or artificial person (a company it is not a real person), And she was the owner, the link is direct. And the crimes are part of her biography, was part of crimes she commmited. You are going too far, only for defend a genocide. Her company employed people for commit a crimes, she is a criminal, its simple. Only in a liberal bias, where the companys are a real peapole, you have reason, but, she was who paid for kill, the company is only a paper, and her company is only a mask of his real person. All this, for profit for growth her fortune. This is part of his goverment of the company and her territory, and part of the his biography. Thanks. The article, is far to be good. You must understand she was a govement of a land, not only a "shareholder".

if you want to learn more of this topic, please read this https://scielo.conicyt.cl/scielo.php?pid=S0718-22442012000100003&script=sci_arttext#n35 Fitmoos (talk) 03:10, 25 January 2020 (UTC)


 * 1) Your sources plainly state that a brother ran the company.  You have produced sources that implicate the company.  You have not produced a source that implicates her in the genocide.
 * 2) Please review WP:SYNTH (combining text from multiple sources to reach a novel conclusion).
 * 3) The text you seek to add belongs at Sociedad Explotadora de Tierra del Fuego.
 * 4) Now you are citing your thesis advisor?  Please review WP:COI.
 * 5) As I mentioned on your talk, please review WP:NLT; do not accuse me again of a crime.
 * 6) Please review WP:NPA; do not accuse me again of defending a genocide for upholding Wikipedia policies.  Your sources do not support the text you want to add.
 * Sandy Georgia (Talk)  03:29, 25 January 2020 (UTC)


 * She inherited the businesses, her brother ran them. This is stated in several places in the sources.  We cannot synthesize.  The sources implicate the company.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  03:45, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

But she still is the owner of the company. For Sara Brown was very lucrative kill selknam, was part of his buisness. Yes a citing my this advisor, AND WHAT!? his research is made of archive reasearch, its objetive for wikipedia. Sara Brown was rich, because her buisness model is based in kill Selknam, living the elite in Santiago, while her brother admin her company, doing the dirty work. The selknam genocide no was a secret, specially for Sara Brown. Sara brown does not stop the genocide started for her father, when she can, because his was the shareholder, the owner, the capitalist, even if her never kill personally a selknam. She knows what is happening in tierra del fuego, she hate to the selknam peapole. Is the tipical capitalist scheme of explotation and extermination. Is exactly the same scheme of King Leopold II with the congo extermination; and, if you want, use his aticle like model. No one wants to forget the role of the King in the genocide. Is the same. And now, i request to stop the disturb the edition of this article, because the wikipedia and this article is not your personal space, and this is a very sensible topic in where i live, argentina, chile and for the Selknam peapole (now deaths). And this discussion could be a very bad press for wikipedia, if someone knows about the existence. Please, edit the article with this information, and the article will be candidate for best article of the year 2020, and will be a contribution for the history of selknam, chile and argentina. And i will be pleasure for transalte to spanish. Thanks. Fitmoos (talk) 07:49, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Relationship with the Selknam Genocide
I request the creation a section called Relationship with the Selknam extermination (with the sources given at higher), explaining his action and innaction in this process, because not explaining this, the article will never be completed. --Fitmoos (talk) 08:13, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * You have not provided any source that directly implicates her, while multiple sources explain she was a) very young when she inherited these companies, and b) she enlisted her brothers' help in running them. Sociedad Explotadora de Tierra del Fuego is where you should be, until/unless you provide a source that implicates her directly.  See WP:SYNTH; I have read the sources on this page, have removed some of the puffery that was in the text here, and have found no source that implicates her.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  14:17, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, there is already a section of this article at Sara Braun. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  14:21, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * And another at Sara Braun (which in my opinion based on the sources is UNDUE and I have deleted. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  14:24, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Both sources  name individuals associated with the genocide; none implicate Sara Braun herself.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  14:40, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Further, the source written by the person you said was your thesis advisor does not implicate Sara either. Unfortunately, what DID implicate Sara was a number of translation errors and puffery that was in this article. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:43, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * , solicitó que veo esta situación. Sobre las referencias, creo que ella es correcto. Es necesario que las referencias dicen explicitamente que Sara Braun, no solamente otras personas asociados con ella, fueron culpables en el genocidio. Si las referencias no dicen esto, el artículo también no puede. Adicionalmente, cuando dice cosas como "Warning, maybe, you are commiting (sic) a crime", podemos ver esos como una amenaza de ley, que son prohibidos en Wikipedia. Sobre los derechos de autor en Chile, no están de dominio público solamente porque están del gobierno. Puede leer más sobre derechos de autor en Chile en Commons, aquí y aquí. (English:) Filmoos, SandyGeorgia requested I look at this issue. Regarding the references, I believe she's correct. It would be required that the references explicitly state that Sara Braun, not just people associated with her, were culpable in the genocide. If the references don't say that, the article can't either. Additionally, when you make statements like "Warning, maybe, you are commiting (sic) a crime", that can be considered a legal threat, which are prohibited on Wikipedia. Regarding copyright in Chile, they're not in the public domain just because they're from the government. You can see more about copyright in Chile on Commons, here and here. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:44, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 * , solicitó que veo esta situación. Sobre las referencias, creo que ella es correcto. Es necesario que las referencias dicen explicitamente que Sara Braun, no solamente otras personas asociados con ella, fueron culpables en el genocidio. Si las referencias no dicen esto, el artículo también no puede. Adicionalmente, cuando dice cosas como "Warning, maybe, you are commiting (sic) a crime", podemos ver esos como una amenaza de ley, que son prohibidos en Wikipedia. Sobre los derechos de autor en Chile, no están de dominio público solamente porque están del gobierno. Puede leer más sobre derechos de autor en Chile en Commons, aquí y aquí. (English:) Filmoos, SandyGeorgia requested I look at this issue. Regarding the references, I believe she's correct. It would be required that the references explicitly state that Sara Braun, not just people associated with her, were culpable in the genocide. If the references don't say that, the article can't either. Additionally, when you make statements like "Warning, maybe, you are commiting (sic) a crime", that can be considered a legal threat, which are prohibited on Wikipedia. Regarding copyright in Chile, they're not in the public domain just because they're from the government. You can see more about copyright in Chile on Commons, here and here. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:44, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Paraphrasing concerns
Direct translations are plagiarism: the article should be thoroughly checked. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:09, 25 January 2020 (UTC)