Talk:Saraiki language/Archive 2

Map of Saraikistan

 * This is a useless map. What area is covered? Who proposes this? — kwami (talk) 10:34, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This map is proposed by all Saraiki People, Saraiki Parties and Saraiki Movements.It is published in all newspapers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.186.115.109 (talk) 13:06, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This article is about the language, not the aspirations of the Saraiki people. As such, this map is worthless.  --Taivo (talk) 13:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

This map Shows region of Native Saraiki speaking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.186.115.109 (talk) 13:32, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
 * No, it doesn't. It is not a language map, but a political map.  And even if it actually were a language map, the labeling is not in English.  --Taivo (talk) 14:08, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

An detailed list of Areas and population of Saraiki speaking Areas is shown. This will help to understand the Saraiki speaking region.This is English language.

Your map is only a political map of new province SOUTH PUNJAB including 2 districts of Kyber Pakhtunkhah on administrative basis not on language basis which includes 11 Saraiki districts ( DI Khan, Tank, Bhakker, Layyah, DG khan, Rajanpur, MuzzafarGarh, Multan, Lodhraan, Bahalwalpur and Rahimyar khan) and 12 Punjabi majority districts (Toba tek singh, Chaniot, Jhang,Khanewal,Vehari, Bahawalnagar,Khaushab, Sargodha, Mianwali, Sahiwal, Pakpattan, Okara) as per Census of Pakistan 1998. u can check them in district profile books percentages of languages as choosen by the people of those district as their mother tongue. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.186.146.225 (talk) 11:35, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

No, It is a language map. It may be treated as language map also. South Punjab is nothing. Toba tek singh, Chaniot, Jhang,Khanewal,Vehari, Bahawalnagar,Khaushab, Sargodha, Mianwali, Sahiwal, Pakpattan, Okara are also saraiki speaking areas. More than Saraiki waseb, Saraiki is native language in the districts of Chakwal, Hafizabad, Mandi Bahuddin, Faisalabad, Okara and Toba Tek Singh are also Saraiki.www.sikhchic.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.186.8.237 (talk) 12:32, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

As I told you to check Census of Pakistan 1998 in each district profile books percentages of languages as chosen by the people of those district as their mother tongue.Your wish to claim every district of Punjab Province as Saraiki speaking is only your wish and not a ground reality, Even if you still keep insisting that 24 out of 35 total district of Punjab province are Saraiki then this means that majority of Province Punjab is Saraiki then in fact Punjab is a saraiki majority province. then why u need a separate province? do u have any logic ? No brother you need to research first then claim. Wiki pedia is about facts and realities NOT ABOUT BIASNESS and WISHES. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.47.82.49 (talk) 16:55, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

It is clear from your statement that this map and list of Saraiki areas be posted in Saraikistan. I agree with you, So it be posted in saraikistan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.62.201.3 (talk) 11:12, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I think you need to learn english first to understand what my point of view is. LOUD & CLEAR that the number of ditricts shown in the table and map are not saraiki majiority other then 2 in khyber pakhtunkhah and 9 in punjab as per census of pakistan 1998 district language profile....please please please u check the census first then try to force yourr false agenda THANKS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.47.210.7 (talk) 15:13, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

It is spoken in the Central Pakistan where all Provinces meet (North Sindh, South Punjab, South Kyber Pakhtunkha, North east Baluchistan),therefore it is considered a form of punjabi which is influenced by Sindhi, Baluchi and Pashto to some extent.Frenchdreamer (talk) 17:57, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Other side of the coin which is also needed to be reflected in this article
it is a cluster of Multani, Riyaasti , Thalochi and Derawali dialects. these are the oldest and most conservative dialects of the Punjabi language spoken in South of Pakistani Punjab. .It is also spoken in the North Sindh, South kyber pakhtunkh North East Balochistan 39.47.188.114 (talk) 13:58, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Other dialects Jadgali, Sureli (Sindhi Saraiki),Khetrani and Jafferi and Kandhari multani have more Baluchi Sindhi and Pashtu influence Saraikistan (talk) 14:04, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Both contrasting point of view should be reflected in the article because it is suppourted by reliable source of Linguists division of Patiala University http://www.learnpunjabi.org/intro1.asp Punjabi University, Patiala — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saraikistan (talk • contribs) 14:08, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * That is hardly a high-quality source. --Taivo (talk) 14:26, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Patiala university is not a reliable source.. are u in your senses 15:14, 10 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.47.188.114 (talk)

I also agree that this is a reliable source so this point of view should also be reflected because every aspect of an issue should be brought to light to the world as an object encyclopedia Saraikistan (talk) 15:19, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Other side of the coin is also evident from the name Punjabi because it means language of Punjab. The name "Punjab" means "five waters" in Persian (panj ab) and refers to five major eastern tributaries of the Indus River. The historical Punjab region, now divided between Pakistan and India, is defined physiographically by the Indus River and these five tributaries. One of the five, the Beas River, is a tributary of another, the Sutlej River, and lies entirely in present day India, well within the eastern half of historical Punjab.

The British linguist George Abraham Grierson came to the conclusion that a group of dialects known collectively as "western Punjabi" spoken north and west of the Punjab heartland, in the Indus valley itself and on the lower reaches of the other four tributaries (excluding the Beas River), in fact constituted a language distinct from Punjabi. He christened this group of dialects "Lahindā" in a volume of the Language Survey of India (LSI) published in 1919. (The -ā ending has on its own given rise to a bit of terminological confusion because, since "Lahnda" is a noun, not an adjective, some linguists of India have preferred to use the adjective "Lahndi" for the sake of consistency with the way of naming the other Indo-Aryan dialects and languages.) He grouped as "southern Lahnda" the dialects that are now recognized as Saraiki. Grierson tentatively identified the boundary between Punjabi and "Lahnda" as a north-south line running from the Gujranwala District to the former Montgomery District (near the town on Sahiwal). This line lies well west of Lahore.

Later dialectologists have criticized details of the Lahnda/Lahndi construct or even denied its validity entirely. For most workers in this field, however, the Lahnda controversy has had little relevance to classification of the dialects of the metropolis of Lahore and of other localities along the Pakistan-India border. In the aftermath of the Partition of 1947, some investigators supposed that the Punjabi speakers in new Pakistan might give up their native dialects and adopt one or another "Lahnda" dialect; but this did not occur. Saraikistan (talk) 15:34, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

yes saraikistan i totally agree with you because In Indo-Aryan dialectology generally, the presence of transitional dialects creates problems in assigning some dialects to one or another "language". However, over the last century there has usually been little disagreement when it comes to defining the core region of the Punjabi language. 39.47.188.114 (talk) 15:42, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Punjabi University, Patiala,india takes a very accurate definition of Punjabi in that it classifies Saraiki/Multani, Dogri and Pothohari/Pothwari as Punjabi. Accordingly, the University has issued the following list of dialects of Punjabi:[25]: — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.47.188.114 (talk) 15:45, 10 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Awankari
 * Baar di Boli
 * Banwali
 * Bhattiani
 * Bherochi
 * Chacchi
 * Chakwali
 * Chambiali
 * Chenavri


 * Dhani
 * Doabi
 * Dogri
 * Ghebi
 * Gojri
 * Hindko
 * Jatki
 * Jhangochi
 * Mulatni/saraiki
 * Kangri


 * Kachi
 * Lubanki
 * Malwai
 * Pahari
 * Pothohari/Pindiwali
 * Powadhi
 * Punchi
 * Peshori/Peshawari
 * Rathi


 * Swaen
 * Thalochri
 * Wajeerawadi


 * Burling, Robbins. 1970. Man's many voices. New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston.
 * Ethnologue. Indo-Aryan Classification of 219 languages that have been assigned to the Indo-Aryan grouping of the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European languages.
 * Ethnologue. Languages of India
 * Ethnologue. Languages of Pakistan
 * Grierson, George A. 1904-1928. Grierson's Linguistic Survey of India. Calcutta.
 * Masica, Colin. 1991. The Indo-Aryan languages. Cambridge Univ. Press.
 * Rahman, Tariq. 2006. The role of English in Pakistan with special reference to tolerance and militancy. In Amy Tsui et al., Language, policy, culture and identity in Asian contexts. Routledge. 219-240.
 * Shackle, C. 1970. Punjabi in Lahore. Modern Asian Studies, 4(3):239-267. Available online at JSTOR. 39.47.188.114 (talk) 15:48, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much for providing such detailed information and developing sound grounds for consensus, i also agree that this aspect should also be covered in article. 15:58, 10 November 2012 (UTC) Saraikistan (talk) 16:00, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Before you and your anon IP sock edit the article (again) and call it a "consensus", perhaps you should wait until you have a real WP:CONSENSUS. I'll decide whether I agree with this edit after looking at some of your actually reliable sources.  A website that purports to teach Punjabi is on the lowest level of reliability.  I could post a blog and call it "The Universal University of All Knowledge", but that doesn't make it so.  --Taivo (talk) 21:47, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello Taivo "that's positive" that..... you will check it but one thing is for sure.....: in my opinion you also know the fact that..... how much doubt prevail over its recognition as a language or a dialect and..... how many linguists classify it as a language or and few others as dialect..... I am happy that you will not make it as ego issue and give it a consideration.... my suggestion is that you allow to be inserted A new section which allows the stance which we local linguistics and dialectics present i.e. south cluster of western Punjabi (LENDHA).... On personal front i have a lot of research to share with you ....that clearly supports that how beautiful this dialect quantum of Punjabi language is from North Jammu's DOGRI to South Rahimyar khan's RIYAASTI and from East Delhi City'Standard Indian Punjabi with hindi sansikrit replacing Persian Arabic words to West Abbottabad's Hindko.....what is very interesting that all these extreme dialects speaking people when meet can understand each other and both use their own dialect or a more central LAHORE's Majhi (Standard Punjabi)dialect.......be it school and offices of ALL MAJOR CITIES in this above stated area.... Rawalpindi or Multan or Lahore or Dehli or Abbottabad or Faisalabad.........So i wellcome your research and very hope full that if you are the person who is to say YES to conclude WP Consensus then you will allow to reflect other side of coin on the page....by doing so i am not asking you to remove its language status but i want to balance the article by covering saraiki as a dialect point of view also on the page.........ANY WAYS THANKS BROTHER AND LOOKING FORWARD FOR POSITIVE RESPONSE. Saraikistan (talk) 04:45, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Language Breakup as per 1998 Pakistan Census of Districts of South and Central Punjab
Avrilleone (talk) 19:11, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Then why Bhakkar and Layyaha are not included in Saraiki language article?

Because in the census form there was not a thalochi option so people had no option but to tick Saraiki as language. People of bhakkar layyah are more loyal to Punjab due to 'Kalabagh Dam' and Greater thal canal' issue. they consider themself as thalochi of Sargodha division and not part of south punjab and like to be part of desert thal culture under Province Punjab. Saraikistan (talk) 16:22, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Dear, as shown in table Bhakkar and Layyaha are Saraiki. These two these distracts be added in the list of article Saraiki language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.186.89.140 (talk) 10:07, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Brother! Because in the census form there was not a thalochi option so people had no option but to tick either Saraiki or Punjabi as language. In fact thalochi is a seprate dialect having both saraiki and punjabi features. it was categorized separably in Gierison research under Lahnda (Westren Punjabi) dialects not included in multani(Saraiki).. hope you will be very clear now. Saraikistan (talk) 11:37, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Saraiki is a language
Saraiki is a language. Kindly See these External Links http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=skr http://globalrecordings.net/en/language/16338 182.186.107.201 (talk) 05:38, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Move reverted
I suggest a formal move discussion is warranted for moving this article. The material has been contentious for starters. Then, South Punjabi doesn't sound like a language. A google search throws up almost no references to a language known as South Punjabi. All these make this a move of doubtful validity. --regentspark (comment) 16:23, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, most linguists would agree. Saraiki is commonly classed as "just" a dialect of Punjabi and calling it South Punjabi is not wrong. Please see for a 1305p long authoritative description of the Indo-Aryan languages.


 * Well, there is Dhani dialect (and many others) so why not Saraiki dialect? --regentspark (comment) 18:44, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, So move it to saraiki dialect Maria0333 (talk) 04:56, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I've asked kwami to comment here. --regentspark (comment) 16:13, 23 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Maria seems intelligent and well informed, so for the most part I've been standing back and seeing how this ends up. I don't have access to Cardona, just Masica, who doesn't go into a lot of detail with dialects/minor languages. It would be nice if we had a single RS that covered all Indic lects, so that we had consistency across the subcontinent, but I'm not sure such a thing exists. The main thing I've been reverting are unsourced claims that X is a dialect of Y, and inconsistencies within the articles, where we define A as X+Y, but then list its components as X+Y+Z. Basically, whichever lects we decide are "Punjabi", the Punjabi article should treat them as Punjabi, and e.g. the ISO codes, population, and geographical range should be consistent with this. — kwami (talk) 21:52, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I have easy access to Cardona. If there is anything specific I can check out, let me know. I'll take a look at what it says about Saraiki. --regentspark (comment) 22:25, 23 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't know how much detail there is, but if C. has a list of Indic languages and the dialects that comprise them, that would be useful for all our articles. One of the problems is ISO language names which aren't mentioned in our refs. They could simply be minor dialects, but get treated as languages on WP because all we have to follow is E16. — kwami (talk) 23:20, 23 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Cardona got tired of waiting for anyone to develop any kind of definitive list and subgrouping of I-A languages so he published without one (the Introduction has a nice piece of frustration writing on his part), so Masica is the only volume of specifically I-A that has a list. --Taivo (talk) 00:24, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Kwamikagami for your kind praise and I would also like to Thank other editors too for such a professional disscusion. Actually Cardona has a list of Indic languages and the dialects that comprise them, which would be useful for all articles on indo aryan languages and being a local person I 100% agree with him because this list is truly based on the principle that the term 'language' has to be distinguised from the term 'dialect' only on the basis of mutual intengibility. I am listing them as under
 * Punjabi= 129 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Indian and Pakistani Punjab including Majhi, Doabi, Hindko, Dogri, Lahnda and Saraiki.
 * Sindhi= 20 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Pakistani Sindh (Lari, Vicholi, Sureli and Lasi) and Kachhi of North Gujrat.
 * Marathi= 75 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Indian State Maharashter excluding Khandeshi.
 * Gujrati= 45 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Indian State Gujrat excluding Bhilli.
 * Hindi =420 Million Speakers (2001) comprising dialects of Indian States of Dehli,UP, Haryana, Rajhastan, Bihar, CP and Chatisgarh
 * Bangala= 230 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Indian State Bengal and Bangladesh.
 * Oriya= 34 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Indian State Orrisa.
 * Assamees= 17 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Indian State Assam.
 * Nepali= 15 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Nepal.
 * Sinhali= 14 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Sri lanka excluding Tamil.
 * Konkani= 2 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Indian State Goa.
 * Kashmiri= 5 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Indian occupied Disputed Kashmir Valley.Maria0333 (talk) 16:40, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I took a look at Cardona and though his entire discussion of Saraiki (he spells it Siraiki) is subsumed under Punjabi, he does seem to treat Saraiki differently from other dialects. For example, he states that it Siraiki speakers are classified as Punjabi speakers by the Pakistani census but that they would "prefer to define themselves as speakers of Siraiki" (p. 585) and that it "is the variety most consistently divergent from MSP norms and the one with the best claim to separate recognition" (p. 586). He also contrasts Saraiki language elements with Punjabi language elements pointing to differences (pp. 588, 590, 593, 594, 602-613, etc.), though within a broader discussion of Punjabi. My impression is that, in modern Pakistan, Saraiki is considered to be a variant of Punjabi but, and this is according to Cardona, it is different enough for it to have once been considered a separate language. Perhaps, like the Hindization of North Indian languages, there is a parallel Punjabization of languages in the Punjab region of Pakistan. Anyway, that's the scoop from Cardona. --regentspark (comment) 19:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Great work RegentsPark but I and kwamikagami had a long professional discussion over the fact and we both agreed and I hope most of us will agree that a dialect is only separate language when it is not mutually intangible. Saraiki is 100% mutual intangible and inter communicable with Majhi Hindko Doabi or Lahnda. Therefore Cardona on the basis of mutual intangibility classified all Indo Aryan languages Perfectly and I being a local 100% endorse and agree with his work. as far as the statement that locals prefer to define themselves as speakers of Siraiki, what if they prefer to call them self Russian. Secondly There is a political agenda to achieve a separate province because South Punjab is not as developed as North Punjab so we have to consider the sociopolitical background since 1964 that's why they invented the term saraiki to present them self differently.It is not only Cardona but 100,s of local linguists and new foriegn linguistic publications are classifing Saraiki as a dialect of Punjabi. Please see http://www.lmp.ucla.edu/Profile.aspx?LangID=95&menu=004, Lambert M Surhone, Mariam T Tennoe, Susan F Henssonow:2012:Punjabi Dialects:Beta script publishing:6134873527, 9786134873529 , AND Nataliia Ivanovna Tolstaia http://books.google.com.pk/books?id=BmA9AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false Maria0333 (talk) 19:51, 25 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't disagree Maria and I think that Cardona is clearly including Saraiki as a dialect of Punjabi. The entire discussion there is subsumed under the heading of Punjabi language. Any discussion about the degree of separation between Saraiki and MSP would, at best, go in a section in the article. It does seem to me that, like Dhani or Potohari, the article should be titled Saraiki dialect. At least, that is, based on the evidence from Cardona (since I'm no language expert). --regentspark (comment) 20:12, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes Regents Park i agree that you are not a linguist but you appear to me a intelligent editor thats why you are also agreeing with me and Kwamikagami on this issue. So I am moving this article in to Saraiki dialect and also making few edits in to article along with references in order to incorporate crux of discussion between all of us.Maria0333 (talk) 10:50, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Kindly See these External Links http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=skr http://globalrecordings.net/en/language/16338 182.186.70.86 (talk) 15:23, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

ANY MOVE SHOULD BE JUSTIFIED ON TALK PAGE
William St. Clair Tisdall, George Abraham Grierson, Bailey, Rev. T. Grahame, Cardona, Nataliia Ivanovna Tolstaia and Majority of other international and subcontinent linguistic publications have classified Saraiki as dialect of Lahnda (Western Punjabi) so move of such scale from dialect to language only on basis on argument that majority of Google books is not with standing.Kelly0987 (talk) 04:02, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

saraiki is a language, no doubt. Kindly See these External Links http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=skr http://globalrecordings.net/en/language/16338 182.186.70.86 (talk) 15:16, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Kindly see these books. https://www.google.com.pk/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=saraiki+language Language Policy and Language Conflict in Afghanistan and Its ...

books.google.com.pk/books?isbn=9004201459 books.google.com.pk/books?isbn=1847207022

13:42, 8 October 2013 (UTC)182.186.57.115 (talk)

Saraiki not a language but a dialect of punjabi
Saraiki (South Punjabi) has 90 % lexical similarity with Majhi ( Standard Punjabi ) therefore is considered as a dialect of Punjabi by majority of local linguist based on dictionary to dictionary comparison as compare to forieng languist who base lessly classify it as a language after a minor research of 100 to 200 word list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frenchdreamer (talk • contribs) 09:56, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Your statement is not enough. We need reliable sources before we can even begin a discussion here.  --Taivo (talk) 13:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Seraiki, is a standardized written language as per few linguists and a dialect of punjabi as per some other linguists, belonging to the Indo-Aryan (Indic) language family — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frenchdreamer (talk • contribs) 17:55, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

What is your problem Mr Taivo. can you explain the grounds for reverting with out any reference. dont miss use your edit chair for fun and reverse only you can proof the edits wrong as suppourted by published material. REGARDZZZZZ Frenchdreamer (talk) 18:10, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Oh Taivo You Cant Hide From Genuine Quires

Can u answer these questions please Mr. Taivo + Kwami

(1) Who are the authors of reliable scientific linguistic works Foreign or locals ??

(2) How can any forigner language expert who cant speak these dialects can classify them as an separate language only on the basis of 200 to 300 word comparison ??

(3) What is the difference between a dialect and language?

(4) Can you learn these dialects then challenge my edits?

(5) Y AUSTRAILIAN, US, BRTISH, South African english are not classified as different languages with similer level of differences?

(6) Y wikipages on these dialects of english contain word comparisons if i m not allowed to post word comparison in these dialects of punjabi...bcoz u remove them by arguing ITS NOT A DICTIONARY?

(7). Why these are not reliable refrences with such a famous authors Book name: 3 HINDUSTANI LANGUAGES Page 99 Author: Doctor K S BEDI...Book name: PUNJABI LISANIYAT (LANGUISTIST) Page 142 Author: Shehbaz Malik...Book name: SHORT HISTORY OF PUNJABI LITERATURE Page 17 Author: Qureshi Ahmed Hussain..Book name: URDU IN PUNJAB Page 76 Author: Hafiz Mehmood Shirani (8) You said that other native speakers contested my edited so can u kindly name bcoz i cant see any objecting edit by any native speaker? LanguageXpert (talk) 07:36, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

(9) Is wikipedia talk page arguments and logics presented not enough to revert wt u had been doing with out convincing me ?

(10) Are you not taking un fair advantage of your position as wikipedia administrators?

(11) Has any native speaker objected on my word list which clearly show how correct that was?

(12) If I publish a fake "scientific linguistic work" in your mother tongue and relate it to monkey language then will you post it on wikipedia as a scientific linguistic research ??? LanguageXpert (talk) 12:01, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Read WP:BRD. If someone reverts your edits then you have to justify on the Talk Page and build a consensus before re-editing.  You have failed miserably at even attempting to build a consensus.  If you want us to consider your sources, then you have to provide full publication details so that they are available for our inspection and verification--not just a name and author's name.  --Taivo (talk) 14:01, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello LanguageXpert ap nay sahi goron ki waat lga di hay bhai. ye log jaan bujh kr hm saraiki punjabi potwari or hindko k naam pr taqseem kr k hmay lraana chahtay haen. HELLO TAIVO THE QUESTION ME AND LANGUAGE EXPERT ARE ASKING YOU THAT WHY YOU ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE SAME RULE BECAUSE RULES ARE SAME FOR EVERY ONE. SO YOU STARTED REVERTING FIRST SO YOU SHOULD SET AN EXAMPLE FOR OTHERS BY FOLLOWING YOUR WP RULES FIRST AS A LEADER. SO I AM RE EDITING SO YOU FIRST BUILT CONSENSUS ON THIS TALK PAGE AND THEN REVERT. Frenchdreamer (talk) 16:58, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Read WP:BRD. If you don't understand BRD, or are unwilling to follow its procedure, then you shouldn't be editing Wikipedia.  1) You made an edit.  2) I reverted the edit for lack of reliable sources and pushing a POV.  Then 3) YOU start discussing on the Talk Page to build a consensus.  That's the procedure we follow on Wikipedia.  It is YOUR job now to discuss why you think your edits should be in the article based on reliable sources.  You need to stop shouting and pointing fingers and start doing your job as editors--providing reliable sources to support your suggested edits and building a consensus for them.  Only after you have built a consensus do you then edit them into the article.  --Taivo (talk) 17:59, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

HELLO TAIVO BRO, THE QUESTION ME AND LANGUAGE EXPERT ARE ASKING YOU THAT WHY YOU ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE SAME RULE BECAUSE RULES ARE SAME FOR EVERY ONE. SO YOU STARTED REVERTING FIRST SO YOU SHOULD SET AN EXAMPLE FOR OTHERS BY FOLLOWING YOUR WP RULES FIRST AS A LEADER. SO I AM RE EDITING SO YOU FIRST BUILT CONSENSUS ON THIS TALK PAGE AND THEN REVERT and you must also answer question raised by languageXpert i think he is a linguist and professional but you are a non professional in linguistics and a simple IT data operator i guess therefore you cant answer genuine questions Frenchdreamer (talk) 12:18, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Apparently you are illiterate, Frenchdreamer. I addressed your comment in my previous comment.  At this point, I must assume you are nothing more than a sock of User:LanguageXpert (who is not an expert) and a simple edit warrior.  --Taivo (talk) 13:31, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Mr Taivo You never set an example because you are clueless and I think you forgot LanguageXpert ten questions, you better answer those questions if you have any geniune knowledge. what do you know about our sweet Punjabi dialects ? Can you speak them ? I think you are a chronic freek type charecter. what about Kwami is he your SOCK Frenchdreamer (talk) 17:07, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Dear, Saraiki is a language, it is not a dialect. Riasti dialect, Shah puri dialect, Multani dialect, Multani language, Thalochi dialect, Thalochi ,Derawali dialect articles. I suggest merging these articles, as the all these are same. And also be Redirected to Saraiki language. Also Jhangvi dialect is dialect of Saraiki. Kindly See these External Links Allama Iqbal open university Islamabad, and Al-Khair university Bhimbir have their Pakistani Linguistics Departments. They are offering M.Phil. and Ph.D in Saraiki. Five T V channels and Ten Radio Stations are Serving Saraiki language — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.186.110.14 (talk) 15:17, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=skr
 * http://globalrecordings.net/en/language/16338
 * http://www.ankarascene.com/haber/pakistan-823.html
 * http://thepolyglotexperience.blogspot.com/2011/01/pakistan-language-map.html
 * Department of Saraiki, Islamia University, Bahawalpur was established in 1989 and Department of Saraiki, Bahauddin Zakariya University, Multan was established in 2006. Saraiki is taught as subject in schools and colleges at higher secondary, intermediate and degree level.
 * شرم کرو شرم کرو saraiki is a language. see Languages of Pakistan182.186.6.80 (talk) 12:46, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Redirect it to saraiki language182.186.6.80 (talk) 12:46, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * see Demographics of Pakistan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.186.6.80 (talk) 12:52, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * شرم سرم Saraiki is language.182.186.6.80 (talk) 12:55, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Merger
It is conform that Saraiki is a language. Also Jhangvi dialect is dialect of Saraiki. This article is redundant with the Riasti dialect, Shah puri dialect, Multani dialect, Multani language, Thalochi dialect, Thalochi ,Derawali dialect articles. I suggest merging these articles, as the all these are same. And also be Redirected to Saraiki language. Kindly See these External Links Department of Saraiki, Islamia University, Bahawalpur was established in 1989 and Department of Saraiki, Bahauddin Zakariya University, Multan was established in 2006. Saraiki is taught as subject in schools and colleges at higher secondary, intermediate and degree level. Allama Iqbal open university Islamabad, and Al-Khair university Bhimbir have their Pakistani Linguistics Departments. They are offering M.Phil. and Ph.D in Saraiki. Five T V channels and Ten Radio Stations are Serving Saraiki language.15:11, 17 November 2013 (UTC)182.186.4.140 (talk) 15:05, 17 November 2013 (UTC)182.186.4.140 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.186.4.140 (talk) 14:50, 17 November 2013 (UTC) 182.186.106.87 Talk (contribs) 12:01, 23 February 2013 (UTC) 182.180.115.51 (talk) 03:48, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=skr
 * http://globalrecordings.net/en/language/16338
 * http://votebits.com/sweet-and-interesting-languages-of-pakistan/
 * http://www.ankarascene.com/haber/pakistan-823.html
 * http://thepolyglotexperience.blogspot.com/2011/01/pakistan-language-map.html
 * http://languagemaps.wordpress.com/2012/11/30/languages-of-pakistan/
 * http://mazhar.dk/pakistan/
 * http://www.dostpakistan.pk/geography/languages/
 * http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Ethnic_groups_in_Pakistan
 * http://siraiki.blogspot.com/2013/12/languages-of-punjab.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.186.31.123 (talk) 11:40, 8 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. Nothing found in your references about changvi and shahpuri. For other 4 dialects it is necessary to keep people informed about those historic dialects sepratly which are claimed by both Saraiki as well as Punjabi people, Linguists and Political parties and difference of opinion is also found on recent international linguist research from old research so As a matter of fact, most linguists would agree. Saraiki is commonly classed as "just" a dialect of Punjabi and calling it South Punjabi is not wrong. Please see for a 1305p long authoritative description of the Indo-Aryan languages. Punjabi is comprised of many dialects that form a dialect continuum. The dialects that comprise this continuum eventually merge with Hindi in India and Sindhi in Pakistan. The dialects enjoy a relatively high level of mutual intelligibility and can be differentiated slightly with respect to their lexicons. In India, the key dialects of Punjabi are: Majhi, Doabi, Malwai, and Powadhi. In Pakistan, the key dialects are Majhi, Pothohari, Hindko, and Multani. Following the work presented in Grierson’s (1905) Linguistic Survey of India, a number of Indic scholars have further divided Punjabi into two principal languages – Western Punjabi or Lahnda and Eastern Punjabi. This decision, however, is controversial and by no means reflects the majority view in Indic linguistics. See here. Modern linguists Nataliia Ivanovna Tolstaia, Lambert M Surhone, Mariam T Tennoe, Susan F Henssonow, write that in practice there is no contrast between Eastern or western Punjabi to the extent that it could be termed as such as different languages and speakers of Eastern or western Punjabi alike use same literary language that is why many Punjabi scholars are inclined to regard both as a form of single language Punjabi. See here, and [Lambert M Surhone, Mariam T Tennoe, Susan F Henssonow:2012:Punjabi Dialects:Beta script publishing:6134873527, 9786134873529 here.]  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maria0333 (talk • contribs) 14:14, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no need of any merger. These dialects of Punjabi have their own name, identity and differences and people love to see them here. Merging is unsuitable.--Khalid Mahmood (talk) 06:12, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes: Merger is need. All these are extraarticles. Also Saraiki is a language according to book of Punjab text book board Lahore.182.180.115.51 (talk) 03:58, 16 November 2013 (UTC) All these be merged. According to references all these are saraiki.03:47, 17 November 2013 (UTC)182.186.4.140 (talk)182.186.4.140 (talk) 15:05, 17 November 2013 (UTC)182.186.99.164 (talk) 02:47, 24 November 2013 (UTC)182.186.80.221 (talk) 16:28, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Saraiki Speaking Areas
Ten districts in Sindh, 5 districts in Baluchistan, Seven distracts in punjab as per Pakistan Census 1998, Pakistan, three distracts from KPK Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa Province, Pakistan, and two agencies  are saraiki speaking area.LanguageXpert (talk) 15:13, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Saraiki people claim that Twenty distracts in punjab, Pakistan and two distracts from Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa Province, Pakistan  are saraiki speaking area.


 * Bahawalnagar
 * Bahawalpur
 * Bhakkar
 * Chiniot
 * Dera Ghazi Khan
 * Dera Ismail Khan
 * Jhang
 * Khanewal
 * Khushab
 * Layyah
 * Lodhran
 * Mianwali
 * Multan
 * Muzaffargarh
 * Pakpattan
 * Rahim Yar Khan
 * Rajanpur
 * Sahiwal
 * Sargodha
 * Tank
 * Toba Tek Singh
 * Vehari
 * Frontier Region Tank
 * Frontier Region Dera Ismail Khan

These distracts are also Saraiki Saraiki is spoken in India, United Arab Emirates and Afghanistan also. Saraiki is second largest language in Kingdom of Saudi Arabia with more than 2.5M. In United Kingdom. Saraiki is spoken by 400,000. In Canada, China, South Africa and United States saraiki is also spoken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.186.56.32 (talk) 08:50, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Chakwal
 * Hafizabad
 * Mandi Bahauddin
 * Okara
 * Fazilka
 * Sri Ganganagar

Dear brother Ap meri baat q nahin smjay kay ap in punjabi/jhangvi/jaangli logon ko shaamil mt kro q k agr hum nay in kay 15 districts (Hafizabad,Mandi Bahaudin,Chakwaal, Sargodha, Khaushaab, Khanewal, Vehari, Sahiwal, Pakpattan, Okara, Chaniot, Jhang, BahawalNagar,Toba Tek singh and Mianwali)ko hm nay apnay subay mea shaamil kr liyay to in ki sarakistan mea aksriyat ho jaegi...ye apnay ap ko saraiki nahin kehtay 1998 Census mea khud check kr lena in districts ko or even mianwali walon nay bhi kala bagh dam issue ki wja say kbi apnay ap ko punjab say alg nai smja, to mt lgao un ko moo.. Saraikistan (talk) 16:58, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Only 9 districts of Punjab Province are Saraiki Majority (Multan,Bahawalpur,Rahim yar khan,Lodhran,Muzaffargarh,Layyah,Bhakar,DG khan and Rajanpur).Please see the table below which is based on figures from Pakistan Census 1998 each District's profile book's Language distribution section.I have included 24 districts which are wrongly claimed by Saraiki people. Any one who has doubt could visit Pakistan Statistics Division (PSD) web site and could use the contact information provided on that web site so that he could ask for mailing to him the material i quoted above for his verification. Its an open challenge.

All the major tribes in Tank (Bhittani, Wazir, Mahsud, Bannuchi and Marwat) are pashto speaking. Only non-Pashtun tribe is Jat, also known as Jattars. Most of the time election is also won by a person from Bhittani tribe, clearly showing their numerical superiority. Moreover, when Kyber Pakhtunkhwa wanted to introduce mother tongue as a part of curriculum, pashto was introduced in Tank (http://beta.dawn.com/news/566083/pashto-as-compulsory-subject-from-next-year). Here is the link clearly stating that pashto is the main language of the district (http://prr.hec.gov.pk/Chapters/1413S-1.pdf), it by HEC Government of Pakistan. The ethnologue map shows only Pashto as a spoken language of Tank District, but i know from visiting tank that some jats especially in the city speaks Saraiki (Not hindko).Tank District (http://archives.dawn.com/weekly/herald/herald130.htm) has been shown as saraiki speaking by proponents of Saraiki province, however, we know that there were protests in Tank for there inclusion in Saraiki Province, since more than 80% of the population there is Pashto speaking (Bhittani, Wazir, Masud, Kundi's, few Jats etc)tell me if their are anyother major ethnic groups in Tank??, evenmore now after the war on terror. So similalry pashto is the main language in FR Tank and FR DI KHAN, i can find alot of sources for that but i wont do the effort. Tigerkhan007 (talk) 07:34, 18 August 2013 (UTC)182.186.117.202 (talk) 12:54, 18 November 2013 (UTC)182.186.117.202 (talk) 12:57, 18 November 2013 (UTC)182.186.66.243 (talk) 14:46, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

A very neat map
I'm very surprised to see in File:Dialects of Sindhi.PNG that the dialects are separated by such simple lines: no fuzzy areas, no wiggles, no other complications. Just which expert source(s) is this map based on? -- Hoary (talk) 01:34, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * That's about Sindhi, not Saraiki. That said, I suspect that it is at least very much simplified or based on a limited number of characteristics. --JorisvS (talk) 10:43, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. Excuse me if I seem unappreciative of people who take the trouble to create maps (one of many skills that I lack); but when we write paragraphs, we're supposed to say where their content comes from, whereas Wikimedia Commons and Wikipedia appear to welcome graphics such as this whose factual content could have come from anywhere or nowhere. Its creator has been very energetic, but unless he backs this up with sources I don't see how it can be properly used for any purpose. -- Hoary (talk) 10:59, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Me neither. Its value is rather dubious. It is not even clear what it is really depicts: dialects of Sindhi? Varieties spoken in Sindh? Something else that conflates various other things, including politics?
 * This "Saraiki Sindhi" in the north: is it linguistically Saraiki, but ethno-politically considered Sindhi? Then this should be noted as such at Sindhi language and the map removed also there. --JorisvS (talk) 11:24, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll remove it one or two days from now unless I read a good reason not to do so. Though you're most welcome to beat me to it. -- Hoary (talk) 13:11, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Removing the chronically unreferenced
I've just now removed the following: IFF any of these can be reliably referenced, feel free to reinsert it. -- Hoary (talk) 14:04, 7 March 2014 (UTC) deleted the first of these -- Hoary (talk) 14:32, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 *  The first national census of Pakistan to gather data on the prevalence of Saraiki was the census of 1981. 
 *  Romani and Saraiki share some words and similar grammatical systems. The cause of the Romani diaspora is unknown. However, the most probable conclusion is that the Romanies were part of the military in Northern India. When there were repeated raids by Mahmud of Ghazni and these soldiers were defeated, they were moved west with their families into the Byzantine Empire. This would have occurred between AD 1000 and 1030. 
 *  In the process of creating a distinct Saraiki written standard, activists have paid attention to creating a standard script and orthographic norms. Orthographic and linguistic standardization of Saraiki seems more connected with the politics of identity. Although Saraiki shares four implosive sounds with Sindhi, care was taken so that the Saraiki script and the representation of these symbols should be different from that of Sindhi so that the Sindhis should not lay any claims over Saraiki literature as theirs. 


 * p. 46 for the 1981 claim — Lfdder (talk) 14:09, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Excellent; thank you. -- Hoary (talk) 14:32, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Joke of the day
Personal commentary by an IP that Punjabi is a saraiki word. see below

"Recently Saraiki has been standardized as language (with the current name) comprising Multani and its related dialects contrasting the view of being a dialect of Punjabi. However this standardization is controversial to date because the word Punjabi comes from the Saraiki or Multani grammar using Persian vocabulary of Punj (five) and aab (water). Aab is not used in the dialects now included in Punjabi itself. Although the name Saraiki is new, but the language is not." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mutunt (talk • contribs) 13:22, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Indeed it is joke that Siraiki is dialect of Punjabi language  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.189.178.147 (talk) 15:47, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Saraiki is independent language
Siraiki is an independent language .It is not dialect of Punjabi.It is shameful article for Siraiki people — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.189.178.147 (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2014 (UTC) The article on Saraiki language must be added in this wiki as saraiki is a language. see www.britannica.com

182.186.74.87 (talk) 10:21, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2015
Saraiki is a language. Saraiki in not only dialect but also is an language. So page on Saraiki language be approved and saraiki dialect be deleted.

182.186.35.156 (talk) 13:43, 11 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: This was discussed at some length - see above, and consensus is that Saraiki is one of the Punjabi dialects, not a language in its own right. - Arjayay (talk) 13:53, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * No Saraiki is a language.


 * http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/535269/Siraiki-language182.186.88.197 (talk) 15:52, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
 * http://www.dawn.com/news/1139070182.186.88.197 (talk) 15:57, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Saraiki is a language
There have been several discussions on this previously, primarily now stored in Archive 2, where the consensus was for dialect, not language. Any decision can be revisited, but the consensus for change needs to be clear, and it cannot be changed to Saraiki as that is a disambiguation page. - Arjayay (talk) 09:43, 26 May 2015 (UTC)''
 * ''I have copied this post, which was left on my talk page, to here as I have advised the editor that he needs to obtain consensus for such a change.

Can you please rename the article Saraiki Dialect as Saraiki only.

Saraiki is an indo aryan language and being spoken in southern parts of Pakistan. Please find below links as citation, i can provide further details as well. There is PHD level education offerred in saraiki language in Bahauddin zakriya university Multan. looking forward a positive response..

https://waseb.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/saraiki-people/ http://www.bzu.edu.pk/v2_department.php?cid=33 http://www.iub.edu.pk/department.php?id=26 http://www.thefridaytimes.com/beta2/tft/article.php?issue=20120210&page=19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraikistan http://www.pildat.org/Publications/publication/Conflict_Management/DemandforSaraikiProvince-BPMarch2011.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.190.14.97 (talk) 22:58, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Name
It is better to name it as "Sireaki dialect" then "Saraiki dialect" in accordance with local pronunciation. SakhiQ (talk) 10:26, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
 * This is the English Wikipedia, not the local-dialect Wikipedia. Names reflect English usage, not local usage. (Else, for example, Hungarian language would be at "Magyar language".) --JorisvS (talk) 10:34, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Overseas
It is spoken in USA, England, Germany and austrailia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.47.229.42 (talk) 09:50, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 14 August 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. No prejudice against a new RM that makes a primary topic argument. Jenks24 (talk) 09:53, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Saraiki dialect → Saraiki – It should be only Saraiki because many people consider it a language and many consider it a dailect so its name should be neither Saraiki language nor Saraiki dailect until it is proved as language or Dailect 94.99.201.82 (talk) 18:21, 14 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment I oppose merging the disambiguation page into a hatnote on this article -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 05:28, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment can you prove this is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the term? Why would the linguisitics topic be primary over the ethnic topics? -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 05:28, 15 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment I oppose almost all linguist on Indo-Aryan languages from Grierson (1903–28) to George Cardona (2014) have classified it as dialect of Lahnda (Westren Punjabi) language along with Hindko dialect and few other dialects. Move will complicate situation. It will give prefrence to etho-political views over scholory work of language professionals. 39.47.43.72 (talk) 17:27, 15 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Classification
According to https://www.britannica.com/topic/Lahnda-language Lahanda is macro language. But in this Lahnda Western Punjabi [pnb] is not included. So Lahanda and Punjabi are two different and distinct languages. Kindly this mistake be removed. This is a big mistake and confusion. Look in to the matter. It is suggested that Lahnda macro language be renamed as Saraikis and western Punjabi [pnb] be excluded from this macro language. Western Punjabi[pnb] and eastern Punjabi [pan] are same languages. These be treated in a same group. The only difference is the writing system. Western Punjabi[pnb] is written in Arabic script and eastern Punjabi [pan] is written in Gurmukhi. All audio and vedios, media, Tv channels of these two languages are same. Any one may search this on videos and audios.

1..So the Western punjabi being as same eastern punjabi be excluded from macro language Lahnda.. 2.. Lahanda be renamed as Saraikis as saraiki is the major language in the remaining group. 3.. This Macro language Saraikis comprising Inku [jat] (Afghanistan), Khetrani [xhe], Northern Hindko [hno], Pahari-Potwari [phr], Saraiki [skr], Southern Hindko [hnd], be included in https://www.ethnologue.com/subgroups/northwestern-9 containing sindhi and Dardic. Indo-European, Indo-Iranian, Indo-Aryan, Outer Languages, Northwestern, Saraikis182.186.19.96 (talk) 12:26, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Saraiki dialect. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120206233628/http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Census_Data_2001/Census_Data_Online/Language/Statement1.htm to http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Census_Data_2001/Census_Data_Online/Language/Statement1.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

 Paine  u/ c  15:00, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 15:52, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Saraiki

 * The following discussion is closed. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
 * After the RM closure above, IP(s) opened 2 RfCs above, a move review, and what looks to be a request for mediation on the wrong page (here). Very much out of process, and very much WP:FORUMSHOP. Procedural close. — Andy W.  ( talk  · ctb) 16:23, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Editors involved in this dispute
 * 1) – filing party
 * I have noticed that a Move review entry has been opened to review the recent closure of the above requested move on 21 September 2016. Please keep in mind that Move review is not, by definition, a place to continue the debate about whether or not to move this page – Move review's sole purpose is to question the closing process of the debate.  The main question that I can see is how I came to the conclusion that there was a consensus not to move this page.  In my opinion, the strongest argument was that, while any reliable source may normally be used to make determinations on Wikipedia, when it comes to a title that should use a "dialect" vs. "language" modifier, the only sources that are truly reliable are sources that are linguist-based books and papers.  In that vein, and since Google seems so important to debaters of this question, here is a Google search page group in the "book" category - the search question:  "Saraiki dialect".  As can be seen, there are 562 results from book-writing experts, to include the US Library of Congress, that specifically call Saraiki a dialect.  While that is less than half of the book count for "Saraiki language", it is clear that the authors of the "language" list are either linguists but the words "Saraiki" and "language" are separated in their books, or thay are not linguists at all.  In contrast, the authors in the "Saraiki dialect" group are linguists who either specifically call Saraiki a "dialect", or they do not refer to "Saraiki" at all and leave it lumped together anonymously with other dialects of the Punjabi language under the heading "Lahnda continuum".  I didn't know all this when I closed the move debate.  That close was specifically based upon what I read as "consensus not to move" within the !votes and rationales of that debate.  What I have written here about the searches is what I have learned since I closed the move request.  So I stand by my close and hereby officially endorse it.   Paine   u/ c  21:26, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I have noticed that a Move review entry has been opened to review the recent closure of the above requested move on 21 September 2016. Please keep in mind that Move review is not, by definition, a place to continue the debate about whether or not to move this page – Move review's sole purpose is to question the closing process of the debate.  The main question that I can see is how I came to the conclusion that there was a consensus not to move this page.  In my opinion, the strongest argument was that, while any reliable source may normally be used to make determinations on Wikipedia, when it comes to a title that should use a "dialect" vs. "language" modifier, the only sources that are truly reliable are sources that are linguist-based books and papers.  In that vein, and since Google seems so important to debaters of this question, here is a Google search page group in the "book" category - the search question:  "Saraiki dialect".  As can be seen, there are 562 results from book-writing experts, to include the US Library of Congress, that specifically call Saraiki a dialect.  While that is less than half of the book count for "Saraiki language", it is clear that the authors of the "language" list are either linguists but the words "Saraiki" and "language" are separated in their books, or thay are not linguists at all.  In contrast, the authors in the "Saraiki dialect" group are linguists who either specifically call Saraiki a "dialect", or they do not refer to "Saraiki" at all and leave it lumped together anonymously with other dialects of the Punjabi language under the heading "Lahnda continuum".  I didn't know all this when I closed the move debate.  That close was specifically based upon what I read as "consensus not to move" within the !votes and rationales of that debate.  What I have written here about the searches is what I have learned since I closed the move request.  So I stand by my close and hereby officially endorse it.   Paine   u/ c  21:26, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I have noticed that a Move review entry has been opened to review the recent closure of the above requested move on 21 September 2016. Please keep in mind that Move review is not, by definition, a place to continue the debate about whether or not to move this page – Move review's sole purpose is to question the closing process of the debate.  The main question that I can see is how I came to the conclusion that there was a consensus not to move this page.  In my opinion, the strongest argument was that, while any reliable source may normally be used to make determinations on Wikipedia, when it comes to a title that should use a "dialect" vs. "language" modifier, the only sources that are truly reliable are sources that are linguist-based books and papers.  In that vein, and since Google seems so important to debaters of this question, here is a Google search page group in the "book" category - the search question:  "Saraiki dialect".  As can be seen, there are 562 results from book-writing experts, to include the US Library of Congress, that specifically call Saraiki a dialect.  While that is less than half of the book count for "Saraiki language", it is clear that the authors of the "language" list are either linguists but the words "Saraiki" and "language" are separated in their books, or thay are not linguists at all.  In contrast, the authors in the "Saraiki dialect" group are linguists who either specifically call Saraiki a "dialect", or they do not refer to "Saraiki" at all and leave it lumped together anonymously with other dialects of the Punjabi language under the heading "Lahnda continuum".  I didn't know all this when I closed the move debate.  That close was specifically based upon what I read as "consensus not to move" within the !votes and rationales of that debate.  What I have written here about the searches is what I have learned since I closed the move request.  So I stand by my close and hereby officially endorse it.   Paine   u/ c  21:26, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Articles affected by this dispute

Other attempts at resolving this dispute that you have attempted
 * Talk:Saraiki dialect

Issues to be mediated
Primary issues (added by the filing party)
 * 1) Should the Title of the Page be Saraiki language? Should Multani dialect, Derawali dialect. Riasti dialect and Thalochi dialect be merged in this page Saraiki language?
 * 2) Should Jhangvi dialect and Shah puri dialect be written as dialect of Saraiki language?

Additional issues (added by other parties)
 * Additional issue 1
 * Additional issue 2

Parties' agreement to mediation

 * 1) Agree. 182.186.61.74 (talk) 08:00, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Disagree. Not an appropriate request for this noticeboard. There has already been an open WP:RFC which is a consensus process. ₯€₠€₯ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.60.247.238 (talk) 15:44, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) This is just insane. You cannot just open multiple threads like this for the same question until you get your way. This is called battleground behavior. Why don't you accept the consensus and be happy with it? Wikipedia is not for political propaganda or a tool to achieve political goals.  Sh eri ff  |  ☎ 911  | 21:48, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Decision of the Mediation Committee
182.186.61.74 (talk) 08:02, 11 October 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

RfC: Should the pages Multani dialect, Derawali dialect. Riasti dialect and Thalochi dialect be merged in Saraiki language?
Should the Title of the Page be Saraiki language? Should Multani dialect, Derawali dialect. Riasti dialect and Thalochi dialect be merged in this page Saraiki language?39.37.28.177 (talk) 11:35, 10 October 2016 (UTC) ₯€₠€₯ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.50.91.225 (talk) 16:53, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Reject: IP 39.37.28.177 I think you have neither read article in full with quoted sources nor Talk page and Achieve 1 & 2 which are filled with this discussion. Please follow the steps to get a complete in sight that Saraiki in it self is not a language but a dialect. We should not waste Wikipedia editors precious time Again & Again.
 * Reject: Why are we starting multiple RfCs on this topic? No, Saraiki is not a language so we cannot call those dialects as dialects of Saraiki language. Those dialects will go by their own reliable linguistic sources. If reliable sources mention that they are dialects of Saraiki then they can be mentioned as dialects of Saraiki dialect, as dialects can have sub-dialects or accents if one is a better term than other.  Sh eri ff  |  ☎ 911  | 03:10, 12 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Requires subject knowledge I lack. Perhaps this question might be better asked at a subject portal like India. Isn't this a matter of what secondary sources say, tho? Elinruby (talk) 04:31, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I have deactivated the since this is not a WP:RFC matter. For the page name (title), see WP:RM. For merging with other articles, see WP:MERGE; but please conduct only one discussion on each matter, not four, see WP:MULTI. -- Red rose64 (talk) 07:11, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

News papers
This section is some thing I have never seen on Language pages. It has one source and that is blog spot http://almanzoor.blogspot.com. It isnt WP reliable source either ₯€₠€₯  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.51.212.64 (talk) 03:02, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Language vs. dialect: removed text
I've made a wholesale removal of part of the section "Status of language or dialect". It was added back in 2013 by User:Maria0333, a now blocked sock puppet of User:LanguageXpert, whose other socks feature quite prominently in the archives of this talk page. The fact that they're blocked shouldn't by itself necessiate the removal of their contribution. However, I've had a look at two of the souces they've cited in this paragraph and I've failed to verify either. The very brief webpage at UCLA language materials project seems to implicitly presuppose the classification as a Punjabi dialect, but that's not discussed at all, nor is Siraiki even mentioned. The matter isn't discussed by Gil and Gleason's book either, and from what I saw, no mention is made there of either Saraiki or any of its varieties. Even aside from that, the text doesn't make explicit what the meaning of the terms "language" and "dialect" and glosses over the complexity. Here is the text I've removed: According to some, Saraiki is a separate language with its own standard as opposed to a dialect of Punjabi. [...]

On the other hand, Saraiki can be considered a dialect of Punjabi, because Saraiki is mutually intelligible with and morphologically and syntactically similar to standard Punjabi agreed by majority of local linguists such as Dulai, K Narinder, Gill, Harjeet Singh Gill, A Henry. Gleason (Jr), Koul, N Omkar, Siya Madhu Bala, Afzal Ahmed Cheema, Aamir Malik, Amar Nath    as well as modern linguistics publications such as US National advisory Committee based The UCLA Language Materials Project (LMP) along with modern linguistics such as George Cardona and Nataliia Ivanovna Tolstaia classifying Saraiki as a dialect of Punjabi.

In Sindh province (Pakistan) it is considered a dialect of Sindhi spoken in the ten northern districts of the province. Ideally, there should be something to replace it. I might try to put together a few sentences to provide a general context. I don't have a particular penchant for sociolinguistics, but if anyone does, they're more than welcome to help. – Uanfala (talk) 18:35, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

OK, I've now added a paragraph that introduces the general context, mostly based on Masica. Copyediting will be welcome. I don't know if ultimately such a section is needed. However, I think ideally the whole question should be treated as part of the bigger picture of the sociolinguistics of Saraiki, but I can't see that coming yet. – Uanfala (talk) 21:26, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

There is also a hypothesis that it is the earliest form of the Urdu language after the first Muslim ruler in (historical) India had made Multan the capital of Sindh. I've seen this mentioned elsewhere as well, so the claim in its proper context probably isn't as ludicrous as this sounds. But without that context, it doesn't make much sense. – Uanfala (talk) 22:32, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I've also removed the following text:
 * Since these changes appear to be contested, FWIW, I'll add my opinion here. I think Uanfala has done a fine job in the rewrite. The references are improved and the text made more concise. Regardless of where the article title ends up, the article itself is in much better shape. (No question though that the RfC is forum shopping!) --regentspark (comment) 19:08, 21 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose While most of users during the course RFC were showing respect to proceeding of this RFC,  ignoring previous Forum shopping activities  But one editor @Uanfala was doing WP:TENDENTIOUS editing  with repetitive attempts to insert or delete content or show behaviour that tends to frustrate proper editorial processes and discussions. He was WP:POINTy  calling world renown linguistic sources of George cardona 2007, Rana Dasgupta 2014  and  UCLA 2015 as bogus sources. @Uanfala  Wikipedia is not about winning WP:WINNING and It is not a battleground for WP:EDITWAR you keep on doing  . If we analyse his contributions to this/prior discussions. Once he call Saraiki a Language  then he says where did I said it is not a dialect  then a language variety . He even tried to define Dialect as a Language variety, but Wikipedia is not a dictionary WP:NOTDIC with defining synonyms/ close jargon. If page title is dialect then it could only be expanded in Encyclopaedic manner. Those who think it's more important to win, rather than to help create an encyclopaedia we can all be proud of, are in the wrong place. Disputes are meant to be resolved per consensus. Egos are not helpful in building encyclopaedia articles. ₯€₠€₯  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.51.212.64 (talk) 19:32, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose its WP:TENDENTIOUS by Uanfala.Yoyi ling (talk) 07:42, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Further bogus sources
Well, as insists on adding the same sources, purportedly supporting the statement that Siraiki "is a dialect", I think when I remove them I ought to give an explanation longer than could fit in an edit summary. So, what are these sources? One is a book of personal interviews, and that is not a reliable or even a relevant source for such statements. The other one is the UCLA LMP – I've explained that above, but maybe it's worth pointing out that if you take one statement from one source and combine it with another statement from another sources to reach a conclusion that is not itself stated in either of the original sources, you're doing WP:SYNTH, and that's a form of original research.

Two more sources are a 1941 bibliography and Grierson's early-20th-century Linguistic Survey of India. Even if we ignore the fact that any sociolinguistics claim made in the context of the vastly different sociolinguistic situation before Independence will not be directly relevant today, I'm not sure how these sources could support your statement. Especially Grierson, in whose classification Siraiki and Punjabi end up in altogether different branches of Indo-Aryan, and who is used by the Siraiki movement to support the claim for a language status (for the lattter, see Shackle 1979.

The last source is Cardona 2007, which is a reprint of Cardona 2003. This is an edited volume and Cardona's papers there don't mention Saraiki, but there is a chapter on Punjabi, that also treats Siraiki. Now, Siraiki is not called a dialect, and throughout the text it is referred to with the same neutral term that is used for Standard Panjabi – "variety". Maybe it's worth pointing out that the author of that chapter is Christopher Shackle, who also wrote a book titled The Siraiki language of central Pakistan : a reference grammar and the Encyclopedia Britannica article Siraiki language.


 * Oppose While most of users during the course RFC were showing respect to proceeding of this RFC,  ignoring previous Forum shopping activities  But one editor @Uanfala was doing WP:TENDENTIOUS editing  with repetitive attempts to insert or delete content or show behaviour that tends to frustrate proper editorial processes and discussions. He was WP:POINTy  calling world renown linguistic sources of George cardona 2007, Rana Dasgupta 2014  and  UCLA 2015 as bogus sources. @Uanfala  Wikipedia is not about winning WP:WINNING and It is not a battleground for WP:EDITWAR you keep on doing  . If we analyse his contributions to this/prior discussions. Once he call Saraiki a Language  then he says where did I said it is not a dialect  then a language variety . He even tried to define Dialect as a Language variety, but Wikipedia is not a dictionary WP:NOTDIC with defining synonyms/ close jargon. If page title is dialect then it could only be expanded in Encyclopaedic manner. Those who think it's more important to win, rather than to help create an encyclopaedia we can all be proud of, are in the wrong place. Disputes are meant to be resolved per consensus. Egos are not helpful in building encyclopaedia articles. ₯€₠€₯  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.51.212.64 (talk) 19:32, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose its WP:POINTy by Uanfala. Yoyi ling (talk) 07:27, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Edit request to extended confirm user
As a goodwill step Uanfala you should restore Pre dispute version of article as per DR moderator decision. Secondly it was already suggested that wait for six months, already we had two move requests and reviews, RFCs, Mediations in last 90 days. AksheKumar (talk) 05:51, 23 December 2016 (UTC)