Talk:Sardaukar

Untitled
Interesting thought: If the strongest are always selected to become Imperial soldiers, only the weak are left on the planet. I guess the people responsible for the process know what they are doing, and make sure the genes return to the planet. Does anyone have any clues from the books? Bertus 11:24, 6 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The weak die. Survival on Salusa Secundus makes one an Imperial soldier; no other criteria matters.


 * The only real indication is Fenring's reaction when Baron Harkonnen says that Salusa gave him an idea regarding Dune. Fenring cautions the Baron not to pursue this line of reasoning, implying that Salusa, like Dune, is a closed society built entirely around surviving the unbelievably harsh conditions, where anyone who makes it to adulthood is worth training as a soldier.  JJ 14:12, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Amramsham comitted suicide? where is that written?

If there's no answer for that one, or other parts of his biography, most of it will have to be removed 128.139.226.37

Emblem
As far as I know, in the books the Sardaukar emblem NEVER was a golden lion -- it was added in the games.

Not true.

Dune, pg 483 says ,"Gurney held the knife up in front of Paul's eyes, pointed to the hairline yellow coil of Imperial colour, the golden lion crest, multifaceted eyes of the pommel. Sardaukar for certain."

Removed comparison to America
The comparison to the U.S. military is irrelevant, and at best, just biased. had it removed

Where is all this detail about Aramsham coming from?
This material, like writing "The Sardaukar Strike" needs to be referenced in whatever book it comes from. The last thing we need here is fanfic additions. JJ 20:54, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, this needs cleaning 128.139.226.36 09:05, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Beginning of sardaukar training
First, excuse my bad english due to me being German. Now to the topic: It is very questionable if the sardaukar are really trained from their childhood on-as the Fremen do. In the original book by Frank Herbert it turns out-more or less- that they are criminals who were banned to Salusa as a form of punishment. That means they are not born and raised there like the Fremen on Dune. They arrive on Salusa as adults and from then the selection process begins. On the other hand the Dune Encyclopedia states that that only 40 per cent or so reach an age of 12-which indicates they spend their childhood on Salusa. This does not really fit together.


 * Remember that "prison planet" is the official reason for Salusa, and that the Baron is cautioned by Fenring not to look closely at that official reason. When the Baron compares Salusa to Dune, Fenring threatens the Baron, implying that the Baron is on the right track and Salusa really is a closed society.  It's not definitive, but I think Herbert was pretty clearly implying that the residents of Salusa aren't criminals at all.  They may not be born on Salusa, but they start there as children.  Also recall Duke Leto's speculations on Salusa to Paul, in which he says that one way create super soldiers like Sardaukar is to take them very young, place them in unbelievably harsh conditions, and reward those who survive (as the Sardaukar are). JJ 15:29, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for comment JJ, but my understading of the book´s explanations was just the opposite : Imperial official propaganda says Sardaukar are well chosen volunteers who start from their youth and are educated to worship the Corrino Emperor. But actually they are the affore mentioned criminals which is not intended to be known by the general public.Look at the discussion between Paul and Leto on Caladan at the beginning of the book!It also says the public does not know(it is just object to speculations) where sardaukar have their origin. The image Sardaukar have on the "civilized" planets where the Great Houses rule is that of a savage bunch of Barbarians- maybe similar to the image the vikings had in Europe in the early middle ages, hated and feared at the same time. Despite of that sardaukar personal appearing as acting characters in the book, for example Aramsham and Tyek are portrayed as cruel but noble warrior caste-more comparable to Samurai than barbarians. My suggestion is that F.H. view of the Sardaukar was slightly inconsistent and changed over the Dune series.

The fact that they are children doesnt mean they aren't convicted as criminals and/or pressganged to salusa secundus. I agree that F.H's view changed over the series. In the first one Thufir guessed theat they start early on, but Brian Herberts sequels, based on the notes from his father display them as mature convicts being trained, without showing any children. All kinds of explanations are acceptable, but seeing as the mature sardaukar are given many benefits, it's hard to imagine that many would let their own children live on Salusa Secundus, so fresh recruits should be "obtained" from other places.

Thufir Hawat tells Paul that the recruits from the Noble Houses to the emperor which are supposed to be Sardaukar are not enough to sustain the known force, and in fact he believes they are a ruse. The same with the 'prison' story. In truth the Sardaukar are a self sustaining population on SS, with a culture designed to produce imperial warriors. SS is not publicly connected to Sardaukar


 * There's a few things going on here that we have to keep straight:


 * The official view of the Sardaukar is that they're house levies (i.e., conscripts from House Corrino's fiefs) who are taken young and trained very well.
 * The official view of Salusa Secundus is that it's a prison planet. Thus, officially, there's no connection between the Sardaukar and Salusa.
 * Leto and Thufir think that the house levies don't provide nearly enough people to account for the number of Sardaukar that exist, and when Leto describes it to Paul, says that the Sardaukar are in addition to house levy troops. Thus, it's not house levies coming in at the age of 18 or 20 who make up the Sardaukar.
 * Duke Leto, Thufir Hawat, and the Baron all speculate that Salusa is where the Sardaukar come from; when the Baron mentions this speculation to Fenring, he's cautioned against pursuing that speculation. This implies that the Baron is correct--the Sardaukar do come from Salusa Secundus.  In Children of Dune, the fact that the tigers trained to assassinate Leto and Ghanima are conditioned there supports this implication.
 * Leto and Thufir theorize that the method by which the Sardaukar are trained is to take them young, put them under harsh survival conditions (i.e., Salusa), and reward those who survive. Arrakis is proof that this method works, since the Fremen are the toughest fighters in the universe, because they start from birth being conditioned to survival in the harshest possible conditions.  In Heretics of Dune, Odrade (I believe) recalls her time training on Salusa for the same purpose.


 * The collective implication is that Sardaukar are born on Salusa or moved there as children and left to survive; those who do are tougher than most and become Sardaukar, and as Leto puts it, come to believe that Salusa is justified just because it produces such superior soldiers as themselves (thus, a Sardaukar would probably have no qualms about sending his children there).


 * This isn't to say that it's not a prison planet as well, but FH clearly implies that "prison planet" is a cover story that no one is supposed to question. Why can't the prisoners become the Sardaukar, then?  Because it's doubtful that prisoners would make soldiers of the quality of the Sardaukar.  Besides the fact that criminals are the opposite sort of character that makes a good soldier, it's also clearly implied that real warriors, like the Fremen, are most easily molded from a young age--a 30 year old murderer/rapist is a doubtful candidate.  Also, if we accept that training must begin early, in their teens at the latest, it's implausible that there would be enough prisoners to make up legions of Sardaukar; pressganging is similarly implausible--wouldn't legions of children disappearing be noticed?


 * Justin Johnson 22:18, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * While I agree with most of the above, I have some reservations on the following:


 * First, just a logical problem - the survival rate on SS is about 7 out of 13, right? Those numbers are relevant either for new arrivals on the planet, if pressganged, or newborns, if it's a society. A society with mortality rate this high would have to have a very high average of births per couple just to get a good number of new recruits every year(try to survive in a dessert with about 20 kids, I think that's a challenge if I ever saw one:)), or it would just have a lot of adults, which means many of the adults are left unrecruited(and there should be no good reason not to recruit someone who lived in SS and survived as an adult- very inefficient) or returned sardaukar, which is also improbable- since they are given very good living conditions once they are accepted into service, and I don't think most of the confirmed sardaukar would want to go back to raise their children in hell if they could help it.


 * It makes more sense that the sardaukar, once recruited, go back to SS only occasionally(for periodical training or whatever), since they are rewarded with estates for their services (also in the original novel, somewhere), which would make only relatively few want to return to a hell planet.


 * A second point is that being considered a Criminal under the empire rules doesn't mean you really are one by present day standards, which means pressganged children, or even young adults could still have the character that makes a good(or excellent!) soldier. also, the empire was an empire of a million worlds, meaning that the emperor could kidnap just several candidates from each planet under his custody, and perhaps still meet the full quota required each year for sardaukar recruitment. The numbers that impress people in the novel are just millions(apparently a few million fremen or more were considered a lot for a planet), so he could make the quota, even considering that he loses about half his conscripts to the conditions on SS. Another point is that in a feudal system, he could keep some of the palents relatively primitive, even medieval, so that news would not spread easily, and then he could get away with kidnapping a very high number of people, even entire villages, perhaps, possibly blaming it on a natural disaster. This means he could a few dozens of primitive planets under imperial rule, each with a relatively small population for a planet (say 200 mil). He can pressgang several thousands from each planet every year, or rotate, taking in a million recruits from a different planet or two every year, and get his numbers. A drop in recruitment could happen when under mismanagement some of the planets gain a technological advantage that makes it much more difficult to recruit from it - better communication for example, such as phone or other media, and this would remove the planet from the recruitment pool, lowering overall recruitment dramatically (see below).


 * If he had a society living there, on the other hand, recruitment would likely remain the same every year - a society that evolves in an environment will reach much higher suvival rates than 7 of every thirteen(or was it 6?). Also, the Dune novel mentions that under the last Shaddam's reign sardaukar recruitment reached an all time low or something(I can't remember the exact phrasing) - if this was a society, it should be relatively easy to recruit, since all you have to do is go to a community living there and recruiting the best candidates, after they spent a life time on the planet, so there's no reason for it to drop so drastically in a relatively short time. An active "pressganging mechanism", on the other hand, should be a lot more high maintenance, and I think would explain the a quick drop more easily.


 * Another disadavantage maintaining a society on SS, is that it should be hard for an outsider to establish loyalty from people who are already hardened and have a warrior tradition. Paul Atreides gained the fremen loyalty by being a superhero, and I don't think a dynasty of emperors, especially the last ones, would be capable of doing the same thing. They could get a personality cult started, but this was done effecticly only by the bene gessrit(at least in the book), and I doubt the emperor had a mechanism as effective as that.


 * In short, my point is that in a feudal system the emperor would have a lot more freedom to pressgang, especially since he makes the rules, while building an entire community, while it has it's advantages, could be dangerous for him in the long run, and very trick to maintain. Still, I think it's not difficult to envision both kinds of recruitment, and the real question is how FH envisioned it. (sorry the edit got so messed up, I'll edit it later, I hope)128.139.226.37 19:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The above is correct (AFAIK) with the exception of the Baron suspecting the true purpose of Salusa, he clearly does not or else he wouldn't have risked the comment to Fenring about using Arrakis as a prison planet, that was an extremely dangerous thing to say to Fenring, who knew the truth.


 * I would also like to mention that Brian Hebert did mention that the sardaukar are prisoners in one of the prequels, but I choose to ignore what he writes most of the time - dune was made by FH 128.139.226.37 19:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * This is some intelligent speculation and reasoning, but I think you overstate the lack of communications in general; I don't think the Emperor has the freedom to pressgang that you suggest. Consider this:  For anyone pressganged, a certain percentage would want to escape or at least contact their family once they're Sardakaur, which would tend to give away the game, resulting at least in rumours of pressganging.  But such rumours aren't mentioned in the speculations on the Sardakaur's origins.


 * I believe that the contention that Sardaukar recruitment dropped under Shaddam (while the number of bursegs increased) was mentioned in The Dune Encyclopedia, which is non-canonical and appears to contain a lot of speculation. Even so, arguing in favour of an indigenous society, a famine or disaster could have an unusually depressive effect on the population for a few years that would hit recruiting.  The implication of the increase in the number of higher officers, though, is that the Sardaukar aren't fighting much, compared to the past--peacetime armies tend to multiply officers while reducing recruitment.


 * Imagine it works like this: An indigenous population that breeds quickly and young.  From the time males are fertile, they're impregnating fertile females.  If they survive to 18, they're taken for Sardakaur training, leaving women behind to live to perhaps 30, giving them 14-18 fertile years.  At the mortality rate you mention, one woman can provide 7 men who live to see training.


 * Again, I'll go back to Duke Leto's speculations for support:


 * ...if you were going to raise tough, strong, ferocious men, what environmental conditions would you impose on them?"


 * "How could you win the loyalty of such men?"


 * "There are proven ways: play on the certain knowledge of superiority, the mystique of secret covenant, the esprit of shared suffering. It can be done.  It has been done on many worlds in many times." [pp. 44-45, underlining mine]


 * Note the term "raise". Thufir discussing it with the Baron:


 * Presently [the Baron] said: "How could you be sure of the loyalty of such recruits?"


 * "I would take them in small groups, not larger than platoon strength," Hawat said. "I'd remove them from their oppressive situation and isolate with a training cadre of people who understood their background, preferably people who had preceded them from the same oppressive situation.  Then I'd fill them with the mystique that their planet had really been a secret training ground to produce just such superior beings as themselves.... The recruits come to believe in time that such a place as Salusa Secundus is justified because it produced them." [p. 376, underlining mine]


 * Note the term "their planet". Both these passages address the problem of transferring loyalty to an outsider, the Emperor.  Also, as Thufir said, they come to believe that Salusa is justified, so I doubt they'd have an qualms about sending their children back, if such is necessary.  The language isn't definitive, but I think it strongly implies an indigenous population.


 * You're correct that the Baron doesn't suspect, as I originally stated. When he's discussing it with Thufir Hawat later, Hawat sees the significance immediately but has to explain it to the Baron.


 * As I think about it, it's not so implausible that criminals (at least those who survive) contribute to the indigenous population, and I agree that in the Imperrium, a lot of things would be crimes that aren't otherwise. I doubt prisoners would go on to be Sardaukar, but they could be integrated into the communities living there.


 * Justin Johnson 03:07, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Since FH didn't expressly write how it goes, I think we have a lot of room for speculation, and I personally think he avoided a detailed description on purpose. I still have reservations about what you say - a population of teenagers under 18 and pregnant women(most of the time), is less fit than an average population for survival in a hostile environment, so if it really is a society, there would have to be something more to it. Besides, a given the reasoning with rebelious sardaukar, a few of them could return to rescue their mother and possibly brothers, or spread the news around, too. You're right about the kidnapping part - there should be small percentage coming back, Unless you destroy the entire village, and blame it on a natural disaster, the surviving children will be taken to SS, and wouldn't suspect the emperor of anything. Rebelious individuals are still expected, so I guess there would be a surpressing mechanism in any system. Also, the quotations used are relevant for pressgangs as well as societies(along the lines of "everything that happened to you so far was preparation for this special purpose..."), also the term "Oppressive situation", I think would be more applicable for people who are brought to the planet rather than born there - someone born, even in hell, wouldn't consider it oppresive. Lastly - in terms of retaliation, the Harkonnens ruled in a similar manner, maybe even harsher, in this sense, then the emperor, and they weren't punished by anybody. While the conditions on SS are obviously worse then Giedi Prime, it doesn't necessarily mean that he is actively surpressing people in a visible manner (and he does go about it, he is obviously more intelligent than the baron), so you can just leave groups of children/families to fend for themsleves on SS, or in some kind of orphanage that doesn't provide enought, but gives the appearance of kindness from the emperor. I guess both mechanisms could work, if you put enough thought into it, the pressganging was what first came to my mind, so it's a matter of choice :) 128.139.226.37 08:50, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, if memory serves, the appendix to the first novel in the series mentions that approprations for training were reduced under the last emperor's rule, but I'm not sure about this. 128.139.226.37 08:56, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

As far as prisoners, they could always be dropped on the planet, to survive the environment or society, or not, who cares?? But they probably would never be suitable for recruitment, their children might be though. The Emperor has the pick of the cream of the cream, there would be different grades of 'survivor' on SS, those who just survive, and those who rise to the top. The award for superiority is recruitment, and the Sardaukar lifestyle.

Sardaukar in games
I'm not sure the last part should go with the main description. you can put a link to the game and have the description there, or put it in another section in this article, but I don't think it belongs in the main body 128.139.226.37 13:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Dune is about history
What is always misunderstood by people when it comes to discuss Dune is that it is in fact medieval fiction- only in a setting with an interstellar background! The Sardaukar are modelled after several groups of warriors in history, most notably

- Spartan hoplites

- Romans (this is where the word legionaire comes from)

- Janissaries, the elite infantrymen of ottoman turkish sultan ( who by the way were titled as "padisha imperator" just like in Dune)

- Some of their characteristics are in fact borrowed from the samurai warrior caste, especially the prevailing of martial arts training but this is minor influence. The martial arts are explained more technically by the dominance of energy shields on the battlefield.

- Another influence that is always overseen is that of german Waffen-SS who the sardaukar bought many charasteristics from. Do not forget the original Dune novel was written shortly after WW2. I am sure FH was influenced by reports about german and japanese war atrocities and suicidal fighting style when he created his sardaukar as merciless terror troops who fanatically worship their leader. They are obviously created to represent something like "space fascists".

greetings from: Continental european Dune Fan


 * Nobody doubts that FH based his sardaukar on the idea of already known elite troops. It's refered specifically in one fo the final books, as he lists elite troops from ancient times, such as kossacks, hussars, through sardaukar and fishspeakers. The thing is that he tried to describe the system that trains this kind of soldier, and in his opinion it was about raising soldiers in tough conditions, in some way. I agree the medieval fuedal system give it a more interesting touch than most other SF books. I guess this is what makes the orignal book much more interesting than the sequels.

128.139.226.37 08:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Medieval origins of Sardaukar
I agree that Dune is a medieval fiction, and that the Sardaukar are clearly based on certain historical military forces. But why this empasis on the West? The influence of the islamic world on Herbert cannot be understated, and is obvious in this case from the name. I refer you to an article on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarbadars.


 * I think elite troops come in all shapes in sizes, and from every part of the planet, so the west doesn't have any definite monopoly here. A possible theme in Dune is the clash between the empire, which is mostly christian (based on the orange catholic bible) and the beliefs of the Fremen, which are a mixture of Islam and Buddhism (Zensunni). Dune describes this conflict having a political background that fits medieval times, but with the technology of the 100th or so century (or more).
 * Evidence of oriental/middle eastern influence include many words borrowed from Hebrew (Kwisats Haderach - Kfitzat Haderech - literally "The leap of the way") and Arabic ("Shai Hulud" - the Sheik(kind of a tribal leader) of the sands - the sandworms)

89.0.181.203 22:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Salusa Secundus
I believe that in Dune, it was clearly stated that Salusa Secundus was attacked by a nuclear strike that devesated the planet, not due to overindustralization. --Eldarone 05:51, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not aware of this passage. Climatic brutality is indicated, that is all. The non-cannon books written after FH's death fashion their own confabulist history of Salusa Secundus, which includes an abrupt atomic attack on SS. These novels indicate SS is a barren wasteland, but in Children of Dune, the Corrino estate is described as having rather abundant plant life.

Lynch's Sardaukar
We need an image of the black Intel warriors. Uthanc 07:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Video Games
I have played every single game of the Westwood Dune series, and the Sardaukar play a great role in every one of them. In dune II the player eventually, no matter what house they, take find out that the emperor plots against him/her together with the other 2 houses, and now and then sardaukar are sent to attack you in certain missions. Eventually, in the last mission, you face both other houses and a force of Sardaukar (who simply are purple Harkonnen with stronger troopers, the actual 'Sardaukar'). In the end, after destroying the other houses and the sardaukar, the player overthrows the emperor.

It's been a long time since I played Dune 2000, but it is a remake of the original Dune II, and if I recall correctly, the storyline was nearly identical. I definitly remember missions where Sardaukar were sent against you by the emperor, and I thought that in the last mission you face the Sardaukar like in Dune II, exept that you had to capture the Sardaukar/Imperial Palace where the emperor was.--El Nazgir (talk) 17:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Legion / Brigade Strength. They are too big
I have a doubt regarding legion strength. The article says, each brigade has 30 000, then legion is 300 000. And five legions are supposed to fit comfortably in one marquee, when the emperor lands on Dune. The marque had 9 levels (Gurny says) and its radius was 1 kilometer (if russian translation is correct). I doubt, it is enough for 1.5 million of soldiers who are supposed to live in conditions not worse, than members of the small houses (there is reference to this somewhere in the novel). Besides, Thufir tells baron that Dune's population may be up to 10 million, and Harkonnen is amazed. Thus, the emperor was not supposed to know the Fremen strength and even if he did, it wouldn't have been rational to bring 1.5 million of Sardaurkars to pacify 10 million civilians. Fremen strength remains hidden until Aramsham arrives with his report. Stan (talk) 10:26, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

They were probably housed in orbit. It doesn't say the entire Imperial force is on the ground, simply at Arrakis.

The Terminology section of the Dune novel, page 337 states: LEGION, IMPERIAL: ten brigades (about 30,000 men). As such: a legion is 30,000 men, a brigade 3,000.217.89.14.233 (talk) 13:59, 15 January 2019 (UTC)