Talk:Satake clan/GA1

GA Review
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I would be happy to under take a GA review. H1nkles (talk) 16:41, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Checklist
== Further Comments? == If there are any further comments regarding the GA Review now is the time to publish them otherwise I will pass this article in 2 days. H1nkles (talk) 01:37, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * One thing, please move or delete one of the photos in the Edo Era heading. It is too small of a section to have two photos. Currently that part of the article looks cluttered with the two photos. H1nkles (talk) 20:45, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Further Comments?
If there are any further comments regarding the GA Review now is the time to publish them otherwise I will pass this article in 2 days. H1nkles (talk) 01:37, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * One thing, please move or delete one of the photos in the Edo Era heading. It is too small of a section to have two photos. Currently that part of the article looks cluttered with the two photos.  H1nkles (talk) 20:45, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

GA Review Suggestions

 * When I do a GA Review I like to provide a Heading-by-Heading breakdown of suggestions for how to make the article better. It is done in good faith as a means to improve the article.  It does not mean that the article is not GA quality, or that the issues listed are keeping it from GA approval.  I also undertake minor grammatical and prose edits.  After I finish this part of the review I will look at the over arching quality of the article in light of the GA criteria and make my determination as to the overall quality of the article. H1nkles (talk) 17:50, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Regarding "Origin" Heading

 * What year did Yoshimitsu receive the land in Mutsu and Hitachi? You indicate the land was a reward for military service and you also indicate the year the clan was ordered to move.  Adding the year it all began would be beneficial - if it's citeable of course.
 * You mention the Satake clan later returned to its "old" territory in Hitachi at the end of this section. Where had they gone?  You say their territory was confiscated but you don't say where they went.  H1nkles (talk) 17:50, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You classify Minamoto no Yoshikuni as a "power figure". Is there a reason you are not using the term "daimyo" here?  I don't know the history of the term and if it was not in use during the 12th century, or if Yoshikuni was not technically a daimyo, then that's fine.  If there is no reason for not using daimyo then I would recommend changing it as this is a better term to use in the context.  H1nkles (talk) 17:57, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Regarding "Muromachi and Sengoku Periods" Heading

 * There is a significant jump between the return of the Hitachi land around c.1189 and the next period starting in 1336. Is there any intervening history?  If not then there should be a statement about the historical record being quiet in the 150+ years between the two sections.
 * Two stub paragraphs in this section, consider combining or removing. H1nkles (talk) 18:24, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You mention two karō families as branches of the Satake clan. At the end of this paragraph you talk about another karō family - Tomura - who held Yokote castle.  Was this family also Satake?  If so then I would recommend including it at the beginning of the paragraph.  It's a bit confusing to have the subject sentence of the paragraph mention two karō families but the body of the paragraph contain reference to three karō families.
 * Finally, two photos placed so closely together in this section clutters the section a bit. Since you discuss the artistic prowess of Satake Yoshiatsu, you may want to consider keeping the painting by him and removing (or moving to another section) the painting of Satake Yoshimasa-especially since he is not referred to in this section.  This is my own opinion but is also based on WP:IMAGES, see section on image choice and placement.  H1nkles (talk) 19:01, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the "Boshin war" Heading

 * Try not to have citations in the middle of sentences. Rather try to place them at the end of the sentence.  There's no official mandate on this but more a matter of enhancing readability and flow.
 * I notice in this section you have several citations in a row. Take a look at FA Tourette Syndrome and how the multiple ciations are handled with an *.  This is just a suggestion.

Regarding the "Meiji and Beyond" Heading

 * This section should either be expanded or condensed into one paragraph. You have a stub paragraph.
 * You'll need a cite for the assertions about Norihisa and Yoshitoshi Satake. H1nkles (talk) 20:23, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Over-all Impression

 * The article is very well written and researched. Aside from some minor grammatical errors the grammar and prose are good.
 * As an admitted neophyte when it comes to feudal Japan, I must confess that the article is very difficult to follow. There are lots of names and places without a lot of background description.  Some of the confusion is unavoidable, especially with so many names that are so similar(ie 2 Yoshitadas, Yoshitaka, Yoshiharu, Yoshihiro etc.)  To make the article more readable I would suggest adding background information on the Boshin War, the Battle of Sekigahara, and the Seige of Odwara.  While certainly the reader can go to these main articles, it would be helpful to give a little synopsis of these major events to help the reader put the Satake clan's role in these events into context.  I would also try and emphasize a couple of key influential Satake individuals, like you did with Satake Yoshiatsu (the artist).  In a sense I would recommend trying to bring the "cookies down a couple shelves" for the layman reader to better understand.
 * Finally I notice that 11 out of your 16 sources are in Japanese. For the English Wikipedia it will be important to include more of a balance of English sources.  This is in order to help English-speakers who need to do further research.  This lack of English sources could hinder the article's progress if you have aspirations of making it a Featured Article.  I've completed the thorough overview, I'll now hold the article up to GA standards and determine whether or not is passes.  H1nkles (talk) 20:52, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * My thoughts on the article as it currently stands are pretty well outlined above. Before I give a final GAC determination I will allow other editors to review the comments and make suggestions/edits as they see fit.  I am not putting the article on hold as I don't feel as though it requires a hold at this point.  I would like to get feedback on my suggestions before giving a final determination.  H1nkles (talk) 21:26, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Response
Thanks for reviewing. I can implement most of your suggestions as soon as time permits; however, I would like to say that the reason why I have so many Japanese sources is because there is next to nothing out there in English, and if there is, it's in books I don't have or can't access easily. I'll see what I can do, but to be honest, asking for more English-language sources on this topic will be a tall order. Other than that, I'd be more than happy to go through and make the improvements you suggest. -Tadakuni (talk) 06:28, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your response. I cringe sometimes at responses to my reviews wondering if they will be taken as they are intended - to make the article better.  You obviously have seen my intent and I appreciate that.  I understand the difficulty you are in regarding sources.  I also don't have time or access to an exhaustive library full of all the resources I would love to have.  I know you will do your best.  I look forward to your edits and will likely make my final determination next week.  Let me know if you need more time.  H1nkles (talk) 15:09, 19 September 2008 (UTC)