Talk:Sathya Sai Baba/Archive 1

Untitled
There is no baba. He is fraud. He has so many scandals in his life and poloticians use him as a tool.

Do no belive on this fraud.

Yours true freind.

Sathya Sai Baba is Love. If you don´t like Sai Baba, please keep the Love. Testing

--- thats a wonderful quote, whoever has written it here (above). As Sri Sathya Sai Baba says there is a need to have capacity to receive Love too. Lets pray to Him that the ignorant over here will soon have the capacity to receive Love from all.

--

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It has been a couple of weeks since i have suggested certain changes under the title "SOME SUGGESTIONS" in the page but the changes haven't been done. Please update the changes as soon as possible. I did not update the changes as i did not want to interfere with the "objectivity" of the page.

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SOME SUGGESTIONS

1. In External links, please add not just discussion groups where "pornographic and abusive language" are used, but give links to discussion group on Sri Sathya Sai Baba, where discussions on Love, Service and Compassion are done. There are many such discussion groups, am sure you are aware of that. Please add at least some of those into the listings.

2. Websites of followers are very short as compared to Websites of critics. So you need to update these listings. I can give you a minimum of 50 website URLs if you request them.

3. References - Links should not be primarily slanted anti-SSB. There should be positive thoughts too in the section, qualitatively and quantitatively.

4. In books for Sai Baba, please give the link to Sri Sathya Sai Books and Publications Trust.

5. In the section on Media and government, the selection has only been partial. There are hundreds of articles which are appearing in everyday newspapers speaking about SSB in an objective angle, yet not slanted and negative. You need to take all those things into consideration. You can go to websites of many of Indian publications and you will get data on the same. Don't just restrict to India Today, who used the whole issue as a marketing issue for their anniversary celebration. SSB on front cover will obviously attract attention.

6. There is a necessity to revamp sections like 'history and origins', 'teachings', 'practices', 'organisations' etc.

7. Try getting primary data on SSB rather than secondary data. A operations researcher/statistician/scientist/analyst will tell you the importance of primary data as compared to secondary data. So do visit Prasanthi Nilayam. Please don't restrict yourself to: this guy said that, this person said this etc...

Please talk about what you want to write in the page Sathya Sai Baba. and DO NOT use this page to advertise petitions.

- Kesava 0430 19 Jan 2004 UTC

What should be added is that

1. the Sathya Sai central trust is the largest single recipient of overseas donations in India even though the Sathya Sai Central Trust rarely asks for donations.

2. there are well documented allegations of sexual abuse of young men by Sathya Sai Baba (SSB). That his alleged homosexuality is in contradiction with his claim to be pure and his teaching about chastity

3. there is good reason to believe that the birth date of 23 november 1926 is a fabrication. According to his school register he was born in 1929. Ex-followers of SSB accuse him of having changed the date to match a prediction by the Indian guru Aurobindo.

4. SSB is a hermaphrodite if we may believe various independent testimonies or performs a trick to make young men and boys to believe that he can change himself into a woman

5. the PM Vajpahee is a follower of SSB

6. the president of India Abdul Kalam visited Sathya Sai Baba's main ashram

7. there has been a documentary called 'Seduced by Sai Baba' on Danish TV which showed young men who claimed that they had been sexually abused by Sathya Sai Baba.

8. SSB's extraordinary claims of omnipotence and omniscience have been proven to be untrue by the skeptic Dale Beyerstein.

9. SSB claims to be a purna avatar like Krishna

10. the scholar Brian Steel and ex-follower found out that the original Telegu discourses were heavily edited.

11. even some ex-follower can't find a rational explanation for the miracles that they have experienced when they were a follower. Some ex-followers refuse to retract the miracles that they claim to have experienced.

12. quite a lot of people defected from the organization after ex-follower David Bailey published his Findings.

13. SSB assertions about magnetism shows huge discprepancies with generally accepted scientific knowledge about this subject

14. it has been proven that SSB sometimes uses sleight of hand for his materializations. Not only in the movies online but it has also been seen by so many people. The word credible in the article is too weak.

15. SSB wants his followers not to use the internet. Ex-followers and critical outsiders see this as SSB's way keep his followers. Followers see this as a good protection against the poison of calumny.

16. SSB's teaching are an eclectic mixture from Hinduism

17. The US government has issued a travel warning against SSB, in the section crime in Andhra Pradesh

18. ex-followers accuse him to be a dangerous quack

19. in contradiction to the current article (24 Jan 2004) the size of the contributions of the Sathya Sai Central Trust to the water project in Andhra Pradesh are disputed.

Andries 24 Jan 2004

Andries, can you please use the "Show Preview" button. You have already made 19 saves in 1 hour. I've messaged you at User_talk:Andries. Jay 11:10, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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 * Okay I will. Andries 11:20, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Still to do by Andries
Andries 23:34, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Sathya Sai organization (indulal Shah?)
 * Murders investigation, shot by the police after they had been tied?
 * darshan daily
 * Educare (fomerly called Education in Human Values)
 * Not possible to discuss it with in the SSO, examples Matthijs van der Meer, Ella Evers, Serguei Badaev, Barry Pittar, Terry Gallagher etc.
 * Sathya Sai speaks http://www.sssct.org/Discourses/Speaks/Pages/Main.htm
 * Paul Holbach: Allegation, Hypocritical invitation for investigation of authenticity because the setting of the ashram is such that real investigation is not possible.
 * Reference to India Today article

copy from Andries' tak page
I havn't read it yet, and I will read it, but I wanted to tell you that I exploded with laughter as soon as I opened the page. I have seen this guy before, and always in negative contexts. Also, his hair is a great source of amusement for me. Anyhow I will read the page and give you more substantial feedback next time ;) Sam Spade 21:45, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Amazingly NPOV. I am very impressed with your impartiality, and the thoroughness, this is really a very fine article. You are clearly a solid editor to be able to edit something this close to you so well. Many people tell me (or show me by their POV edits) that they are unable to edit on articles close to them personally. I'd be interested in discussing theology with you some time, this is an article I have written (Pantheism).
 * I agree, I've seen Andries single-handedly change the page from a stub, I've tried hard to spot and remove POVs but not succeeded yet ! Jay 09:37, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your compliments. I think the main reasons why I was able to write a NPOV article on this subject in which I was so intensely emotionally involved is because it is now several years that I became an ex-follower. Secondly I still have a intellectual interest in the subject. Thirdly, there have been many excellent articles of ex-followers and last but not least it bothers me to read some articles that state that believers in SSB are blind and stupid quote from salon.com about SSB "No matter -- in this part of the world, faith is absolute. Believers don't refuse God, and they don't question him.". I think this is one sided and unfair and I feel vicariously insulted when I read it so I want to show the skeptical, objective readers the other side of the story. Andries 10:53, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Borrowing teachings from other religions
LordsuryaofShropshire, I don't agree with your edit that SSB occasionally uses teachings from other movements. He uses them very often. However, he uses occastionally teachings from other religions, like Buddhism and Christianity. I will revert your edit. His teachings are a confused and for his followers confusing mix of (sometimes contradicting) teachings from the rich heritage of Hinduism.

With regards to your edit about bhajan singing, I guess you are right. This was an old edit (not by me) which was not corrected because I wasn't sure about it. Andries 11:06, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I was not disagreeing that he doesn't use ideas from other faiths. It's just that when it states his borrowing from religions, the following laundry list of ideas are, every single one of them, part of the Hindu tradition. Also, like with the ridiculous statement on bhajans, a lot of these ideas are made to seem like original philosophies whereas they are common practices in India from centuries before his arrival on the scene. --LordSuryaofShropshire 18:07, Apr 25, 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree with you even though I don't know enough about Hinduism to be certain. The strange thing is, if this is true, that it is difficult to spot plagiarism by SSB. Andries 18:16, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Relationship with the allegedly Muslim Sai Baba of Shirdi
What I meant to say with regards to SSB's claim to be a reincarnation of Sai Baba of Shirdi is that SSB never showed Muslim traits nor Muslim teachings unlike Sai Baba of Shirdi. Andries 21:36, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I understand you now! Well, I edited what you edited... heh... basically I changed it to something along these lines: while he claims to be Shri Shirdi Sai Baba reincarnated, a man whose following responded to a harmonious blend of mystic Islam and Hinduism, Satya shows no signs of Muslim influence. --LordSuryaofShropshire 23:58, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)


 * That is even better. Thanks. Andries 00:44, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Prophecy, Incarnations, Prema Sai Baba
I once read in an article where the details of Satya Sai's future incarnation are mentioned - his name, the state and town/village where he will be born and the time. Can this information be included in the article. Jay 05:54, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * There is only anecdotal evidence for the future birth date & place of Prema Sai Baba, from private interviews, not from public discourses  & . I will include it though because the story is popular among followers. Andries 11:27, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I added it on the page about Prema Sai Baba. Andries 14:49, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

To Alteripse, Birth place and date revert
Alteripse, I reverted your edit on the place of birth and date because only the date is disputed, not the place. Your other edits were very good. Thanks. Andries 15:55, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

== "many fewer followers since 2000"

What is the evidence for this assertion? I have softened the wording to make clear that this is a POV, not a proven fact. The groups I have attended both before 2000 and recently, in London and in Arizona, have similar attendances now as in 1998. People whom I know who have visited Puttaparthi say the queues (lines)there are at least as long as ever.

User: [[Pachiaammos 6 May 2004, 23:45


 * The number of followers has substiantally fallen down in countries like the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden. With regards to the Netherlands it is my own observation and could also be read in the Newspaper Trouw. There is only one group left in Sweden. There used to be several. With regards to Norway, I read it on Robert Priddy's website. Andries 19:19, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Dale Beyerstein's study
I think that Beyerstein proved in his extensive study that SSB is not omniscient and omnipotent. I will remove the adverb supposedly. That is a weasel term and against the policy of wikipedia Andries 11:01, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

Michael Goldstein or Indulal Shah?
When did Michael Goldstein succeed Indulal Shah as head of the international Sathya Sai Organisation? I thought that Goldstein was the head of the American SSO. Thanks in advance. Andries 14:49, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

Is the article getting too long? Should it be split up?
I don't understand why this article is getting so long. There is even more that I want to write. Should the article be split up in several seperate main articles?

Thanks in advance. Andries 22:08, 8 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Keep writing, first of all. Its best for articles to be under 32k, but many arn't. If you do want to split things off, I reccomend creating a sub-page for the allegations/debate of allegations etc... The references section is a big part of the article too, but I donno what to do about that. Maybe a section in the talk page, like Talk:Sathya Sai Baba/References? Sam Spade 22:33, 8 May 2004 (UTC)


 * I have done a radical overhaul of this article, primarily to shorten it because it had become unwieldy. It read like it had like Topsy, just growed as points were added by critics of SSB and counter-points by supporters. I have retained inshallah the balanced NPOV inclusion of what Baba says and what his opponents say. But, IMHO, Wikipedia's primary purpose is to inform browsing readers who have heard the name Sai Baba and want to know more about him, not to air a detailed discussion of whether he is who he says he is. User: Pachiaammos 07:23 9 May 2004


 * Pachiaamos, I appreciate your efforts to downsize the article but the usual way of doing that is creating separate main articles. I don't agree with your removal of references and this is not the wikipedia policy. Instead, I request you to add references too for what you write to ensure intellectual accuracy. I found some of your edits of doubtful quality and I wasn't able to verify them due to missing references. I disagree with your removal of the section views on the guru. I think that Wikipedia readers who are interested in the subject would find this a highly interesting section. Kind regards, Andries 09:53, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

The history section is too long and should only contain facts
I think the history section has grown too long. I think we should only write undisputed facts there which will make the section very short. The rest can be moved either to the beliefs and practices article or to Allegations article. The Kasturi biography is important as a myth in the sociological meaning of the word i.e. a story not necessarily untrue that is important for the group.Andries 21:17, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

I have edited down the History section aas you suggest and moved the discursive part to the Allegations page.

I have restored the Kirlian Photography sentences (under Practices) which someone secretly (accidentally?) removed.

User:Pachiaammos 11 May 2004


 * Thanks for doing that although I think the place of the history section should be at the beginning of the article

The Need for References when writing about SSB
I want to quote Robert Priddy to make it clear why reference are important when writing about SSB. "Sai Baba repeatedly warns against listening to or spreading rumors. He compares this to dogs barking at nothing (eg. p. 130, Sathya Sai Speaks, Vol 13). Remarkably, however, his ashrams and movement are certainly far more subject to rumours and unconfirmable stories than any other place I have ever been. Many originate from him in interview sessions and are then reported outside, where they become 'hearsay', which he then neither needs to confirm nor reject. Why is all this so widespread in the Sai movement? " Anyone who writes about SSB should keep this in mind.

Kirlian photos
I removed your Kirlian statement because I have never seen a Kirlian photo of SSB. I didn't know whether I should believe it. I had heard about Baranowski and a friend had seen a video about him with regards to SSB. In what book have you seen it? Can I find it on the internet? By the way Kirlian photography is not scientific. Andries 20:38, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

The book list should be on alphabetic order
By the way, according to the rules of wikipedia the book list should be in alphabetic order of the surname of the author. Andries 21:02, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

to Andries
Could you explain what your purpose is in frequently removing my contributions? (I grant that you have left some of them in place.)


 * Because I didn't find them all good. And besides you also removed some of my contributions, like the references that took me so much time to find and to maintain them. Andries 18:31, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

I don't accept that your reason for removing my Kirlian contribution is balanced. You personally have not seen a Kirlian photo - so what? I better understand your wish to remove the word "scientific" (or to say "supposedly scientific") if some scientists do not accept Kirlian photography is a science.


 * Hello Pachiaaamos, the reason why I moved and changed (not removed) your paragraph about Baranowski was that I found the statement about the Kirlian photos doubtful. I didn't doubt that Baranowski testified as you wrote about Baba's aura. So if you can provide a reference for your statement e.g. book with page number on which the Baranowski's Kirlian photo of Baba can be found then I have no problem at all. In other words, where is the picture? The subject is controversial and very complex and there is, I believe, a lot of disinformation so that is why the references are important. Andries 18:31, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

And altogether, what is the benefit of the high level of negative references in the article as you have created it? I don't see similar references in articles about other contemporary/recent spiritual leaders such as (Sri) Aurobindo or Swaminarayan.


 * I am sorry but SSB is simply controversial. Please do add more positive websites if you want. Andries 18:31, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Can we reach a compromise text, without making the article unwieldy or POV?


 * I hope so. Andries 18:31, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

User: Pachiaammos 12 May 2004


 * Perhaps those gentlemen have molested fewer children? I assure you no one is unnecessarilly presenting contentious information, but rather providing what facts the resources allow. As for your other concerns, Kirlian photo's are at the fringes of science, accepted by some for spiritual purposes, and not by others, and if you express this clearly I think you should have little trouble w legitimate additions. Sam Spade 14:00, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

to others
Is there anyone else here who cares what is said about Sai Baba or is this just a 2 person dialog?

User:Pachiaammos 12 May 2004
 * Do you mean what is said about Sai Baba in the article or on the talk page ? Jay 13:55, 12 May 2004 (UTC)


 * The short, simple, and accurate answer is yes. Sam Spade 14:00, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

I mean the article, what is said about Baba. If no-one here cares, I don't want to strive to improve it.


 * The object here is to present neutral information with respect for the facts. If we succeed then I think people will read the article Andries 18:31, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Pachiaammos 12 May 2004
 * Yes, certainly! If you're good at the subject, pls go ahead and contribute. Every article on wikipedia needs improvement. I'm not a devotee of Sathya Sai, and am not for or against him, so I'll be pretty neutral with your edits. I'm happy with Andries neutrality, but its always good to listen to another (neutral) point of view! Jay 17:13, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

I find it very interesting that the critics of Sai Baba are allowed to spout their unproven allegations but anyone who rebutts the critics with FACTUAL information is "slandering" them. It's obvious from looking at this talk page that Andries thinks he "owns" this article. I've watched this type of behavior from his group for two years. They don't want you to know how many lies I've uncovered in their stories and that there are anti-Sais who have criminal records. This is why they can't get into a court room. They'd last about two seconds.

I requested User:209.240.205.63 to be blocked because of vandalism

 * Insists on slandering the critics of Sathya Sai Baba e.g. Skeptics "such as Premanand, 'a school drop out", "Tal Brooke who is an evangelical Christian sees himself as a 'false prophet and an 'Antichrist, as predicted in the Bible." "Hari Sampath's website, sathyasaivictims.com went down after a query was turned over to Illinois police regarding a report on an internet message board that Sampath was wanted in India for theft and sexual assault. Since then Sampath's high profile public appearance seems to have evaporated." This user is probably sincere but brainwashed.
 * Please block. Andries 06:04, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I also added a NPOV warning until the user is blocked and the slander against Sampath, Premanand and Brooke has been removed. I could remove it now but the user re-instates it quickly. Andries 11:41, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

What I mean is that the remarks that you make about Premanand, Sampath and Brooke are irrelevant and in the case of Sampath are libel which is a criminal offence. Andries 20:31, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I left a message asking User:209.240.205.63 to discuss changes on the talk page. BCorr | &#1041;&#1088;&#1072;&#1081;&#1077;&#1085; 20:28, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I left a new message asking User:Freelanceresearch to discuss changes on the talk page. BCorr | &#1041;&#1088;&#1072;&#1081;&#1077;&#1085; 21:00, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hi Andres. While I agree that User:Freelanceresearch is almost certainly the same person as User:209.240.205.63, I think it's important to at least give a new user the benefit of the doubt. I got an edit conflict, so I stuck in my "nice" request and welcome message above your note. You might consider removing it or toning it down, but it's your choice. I personally feel it's important to avoid "biting the newbies". And also, I doubt that the account or the IP will be blocked without some broader discussion. I'd recommend listing Talk:Sathya Sai Baba on Requests for comment. Thanks, BCorr | &#1041;&#1088;&#1072;&#1081;&#1077;&#1085; 21:07, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * thanks for your help. I have been very liberal with undocumented edits on this article but I find these latest edits slanderous and irrelevant. They are ad hominem attack against the critics of SSB that don't belong in a serious article. I don't think that discussion in this case with this person helps to come closer. I know this person from yahoo group sathya sai baba. I will do my best to do tone it down but I am very pessimistic. Andries 21:14, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

disputed warning
I gave the article a disputed warning because of the following untrue sentences. I am too tired to correct the article now.
 * "Glen Meloy has openly an admittedly indulged in fanatic anti-Sathya Sai Baba propagandizing and has been accused of cult-like control of anti-Sai activists. Another critic (Hari Sampath who resorts to conspiracy theories) say that school records revealed several different birth dates for the boy (under his original name Sathyanarayana Raju) and suggest that he invented the 23 November, 1926 day of birth because on 24 November, 1926 the famed Hindu philosopher-mystic Sri Aurobindo said that the Divine had descended on Earth. Hari Sampath's claims are not substantiated, however"

Andries 19:19, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

anon editor 61.95.133.8?
please discuss such large edits on the talk page. Could you also provide sourses for your claims. I do not fell that at the meoment your edits agree with NPOV. Finaly could you explain you deletion of large amounts of aparently good text?Geni 13:03, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

{pseudoprotected}
Since it is quite clear than anon user has no intention of ceaseing to edit the article and I do not find their version remotly acceptable I can't see any point for this tag. If anon decides to disscuss thier edits or another wikipedian supports them I will of course reconsider my position.

Far From Neutral
This wikipedia article is far from "neutral". Someone does not allow anyone to alter it. They provide only way one information with no quality counter sites. This site is a farce.

Hi. You haven't mentioned what makes you believe that. You can always edit an article, in case you find it to be "far from neutral". In case of an "edit war", if you feel that somebody is not allowing you to alter it, you can always request for dispute resolution. Also see Mediation, Arbitration Committee. utcursch 06:25, Dec 23, 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree that there may be too many critical websites and articles mentioned as external links but the way user:61.95.133.83 edited the article is not according to NPOV guidelines. For example, s/he stated unattributed opinions, mentioned that SSB's alleged birth date was 23 Nov. 1926 as if it were a fact, though SSB's school record says that he was born in 1929. That is totally unacceptable. Andries 07:16, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I will admit failing to see how copying and pasting the article "love" (as the person complaining has done)to this article helps with NPOV (or anything for that matter). About the matter of user:61.95.133.8?'s edits. they involve serious removing of material (which in my judgement results in a POV article) without discussion on the talk page or anywhere else.Geni 10:20, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Bad Edits
09:03, 31 Dec 2004 202.153.37.96 07:13, 30 Dec 2004 210.214.44.150 07:38, 28 Dec 2004 210.214.48.168 These edits all have a very slanted view. I have reverted twice so it's up to someone else. gren

Comments by anon
This page cannot be used as a bulletin board for those obsessed with criticsing Sri Sathya Sai Baba. If this is a bulletin board which is meant to be objective, its time that those obsessed with those critising Sri Sathya Sai Baba accept other view points too. It cannot be a one sided view. Acting as if one is objective, by putting in some positives here and there, which are clearly surrounded by negatives would not help. Writing the positives as if Sri Sathya Baba is a fraud with hidden agend is clerly depicted throughout this bulletin board. I have also found that any changes brought about in the content is changed by some so called objective 'experts'. The critics before questioning others as vandalists will really help in asking the questions to themselves...

Am i "objective?" No..No..No..Am a true hypocrat...


 * How does adding that thought for the day thing active your aims? If you feel that any of the reported critisms are unfair feel free to add reference comments to the the article to that effect.Geni 13:19, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Some of you being the spokesmen of what Sri Sathya Sai Baba has done and not done, may be reading through his literatures will certainly help. The reason being that whatever is written in this website with respect to his teachings itself is far away from what He teaches. So better acquaint oneself with HIS teachings first. There has been attempts on my part to change some of my content but it has all been deleted by the officeal "knowledgeable" people who claim to know much about Baba without even making a visit to HIS abode. Amen...Reading HIS speeches itself will bring a lot of solace and peace. If you are really interested in understanding about HIM thats the basic that you can do. On the other hand, if it is ego satisfaction that is required by maintaining, all these mud-slinging in the name of "objectivity" please continue...Am surprised that you kept the earlier comment. Because even that was deleted at a point of time...


 * redgadless of what his speaches may or may not do they are not encyopedic.Geni 13:21, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * The full text of the Thought of the Day doesn't belong on Wikipedia. I think we can, though, add a link to the Thought of the Day at the bottom of the page under External links. &#8212;Mar·ka·ci 18:39, 2005 Feb 1 (UTC)

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SOME SUGGESTIONS

1. In External links, please add not just discussion groups where "pornographic and abusive language" are used, but give links to discussion group on Sri Sathya Sai Baba, where discussions on Love, Service and Compassion are done. There are many such discussion groups, am sure you are aware of that. Please add at least some of those into the listings.

2. Websites of followers are very short as compared to Websites of critics. So you need to update these listings. I can give you a minimum of 50 website URLs if you request them.

3. References - Links should not be primarily slanted anti-SSB. There should be positive thoughts too in the section, qualitatively and quantitatively.

4. In books for Sai Baba, please give the link to Sri Sathya Sai Books and Publications Trust.

5. In the section on Media and government, the selection has only been partial. There are hundreds of articles which are appearing in everyday newspapers speaking about SSB in an objective angle, yet not slanted and negative. You need to take all those things into consideration. You can go to websites of many of Indian publications and you will get data on the same. Don't just restrict to India Today, who used the whole issue as a marketing issue for their anniversary celebration. SSB on front cover will obviously attract attention.

6. There is a necessity to revamp sections like 'history and origins', 'teachings', 'practices', 'organisations' etc.

7. Try getting primary data on SSB rather than secondary data. A operations researcher/statistician/scientist/analyst will tell you the importance of primary data as compared to secondary data. So do visit Prasanthi Nilayam. Please don't restrict yourself to: this guy said that, this person said this etc...

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It has been a couple of weeks since i have suggested certain changes under the title "SOME SUGGESTIONS" in the page but the changes haven't been done. Please update the changes as soon as possible. I did not update the changes as i did not want to interfere with the "objectivity" of the page.

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 * okay, I basically agree with suggestions 2-5 and disagree with 1 and 7. Not sure what you mean with nr. 6.How should these sections revamped? Andries 13:14, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Andries, with all due respect, this article is helplessly biased against the subject of the article (my guess is that 80% of the article is critical). Suggestions by anon 1 and 7 will be a good attempt to add some balance to this article. I can help if you don't want to it. --Zappaz 04:57, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * well, it was referred to by the press in 2004 so it cannot be bad. The question is not about balance but about NPOV. And the abusive and pornographic yahoo groups is pro- and con- ,not necessarily critical. It just happens to be the main discussion forum. With regards to 7, this is first source, not 2nd and 3rd source and is not recommended by Wikipedia standards. According to the guidelines we have to use the best sources (Nagel, Steel, Priddy, Badaev) available and in this case they happen to be critical. Please find better sources if you can. Andries 07:45, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * OK. I could take the challenge, but note that will not be pretty... I would much prefer that you take the challenge yourself and write for the enemy, for once. As per your statement about being about NPOV and not about balance (after your discussions Anti-cult movement, issue if 1st sources, and that the only sources you found are of critics, I take that with huge pinch of salt....! --Zappaz 16:50, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Okay, I will rewrite it a bit. Hmmm, I have to admit that you have a point with the 1st sources. Andries 16:55, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

--- As it has been mentioned that there is agreement with points 2-5, i would not like to get on further explanations with it. Regarding point 1 am not able to understand the point of difference. Just like the way it has been mentioned that there is a group which can speak about pornography and what not, there are yahoo groups which speaks about Divinity, Peace etc. To add "objectivity" here are some points: The number of members in the webstie that speak about pornography is only 897 while memberships of other groups have crossed 2300. Naturally and obviously, as the whole world are not full of perverts. And who are we to decide which discussion groups should be listed here or not?

So please list the following discussion links too:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saibabalist/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saibabanews/

If you have trouble adding it, i will be happy to make the modifications...

Purported cult
This material is from the article List of purported cults, which we are paring down to a pure list. Editors here can best evaluate its statements and decide how to integrate it into this article. Thanks, -Willmcw 20:55, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)


 * ''Sathya Sai Baba
 * ''Some ex-members like the late Glen Meloy consider the Sathya Sai Organisation that was founded by Sathya Sai Baba a cult. The reason is that these ex-members say that the allegations of sexual abuse carried out by Sathya Sai Baba are correct and the Sathya Sai organization refuses to properly investigate these. Ex-member Robert Priddy who maintains an extensive website about Sathya Sai Baba believes that it is a secretive, autocratic personality cult that has strong cultic characteristics. More than 800 people have signed an internet petition requesting impartial investigation regarding accusations of sexual abuse charges and murder.


 * ''Followers purport Sathya Sai Baba's group is not a cult because it displays atypical characteristics like charity and tolerance towards other beliefs. Also, it does not claim to be the only way to God and truth, encourages a critical assesment of the guru before accepting him, and does not advocate proselytizing. They point out that often cults will expect their adherents to abandon worldly duties and to severe ties with their families, which is something Sathya Sai Baba has explicitly said not to do.


 * ''References:


 * ''Detailed rebuttal of cult allegation on the website of the international Sathya Sai organisation
 * ''Netherlands based website of concerned ex-followers
 * ''Robert Priddy's extensive website, also a lot about cults in general

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When are the suggested changes (1-7) going to be updated in the discussion page?


 * We only agreed about 2-5 and I already sized down the critical weblinks a bit. I'll try to size down the allegation here too. Andries 07:41, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Vandalizing the page
Deleting, without explanation, links along, with important templates and categories, is vandalism and if it continues we will have to have the page protected. If anyone objects to any of the links, they should act in an adult manner and bring their concerns here to be discussed. I reviewed the "rebuttal" links and found one which was clearly not useful for our readers, a Yahoo group that is devoted to collecting disparaging information. I deleted that link, with an explanatory edit summary. Please explain why the other links should be deleted. -Willmcw 01:18, May 6, 2005 (UTC)



Perhaps you are talking about MY yahoogroup persecutors_of_sathya_sai_baba, Willmcw, as I see my link has been deleted. I'm wondering WHY you are showing preference to and allowing links to sites which spout totally unsubstantiated legal accusations with OBVIOUS ad hominem attacks and PROVEN lies (like exbaba.com) yet are totally biased in posting links to sites which dispute the allegations and additionally show LEGAL DOCUMENTATION which proves that some of the people leading the anti-Sai crusade have criminal or dubious backgrounds? In otherwords Willmcw, why is it perfectly ok for this group to disparage a highly revered spiritual leader and throw mud at him while not allowing any rebuttal or pertinent background info.? I'd like to know what planet you live on that unsubstantiated and HIGHLY suspicious legal allegations take precedence over documented LEGAL info? There have been numerous complaints on this board as to how the anti-Sais are deleting any postive background info. about Sai Baba. When I first came onto this board many months ago I complained about the way Andries controls the board like he thinks he owns it and now I see you have even deleted Joe Moreno's link too! When does this obvious anti-Sai Baba bias and disregard for First Amendment rights end, Willmcw? What you ought to do is rein in some of the people who have been monopolizing and obssessing over this board for way too long and give somewone else a chance for once. We have all the documentation to show how dubious these allegations are and have ALWAYS provided links to the sites making the accusations. Now it's high time for you to do the same.

Lisa De Witt

you are right willmcw, it has happened with me too. This was when i tried to add certain content which of course, was about the good work undertaken by Sri Sathya Sai Baba. Some fellows have deleted all those changes without any discussion.

An idea: How about reviewing the whole page as such?

We will discuss how each and every paragraph should be written, right from the intro paragraph.

There is a lack of objectivity in this page and i feel, presumably i may be wrong, that there is too much of mud-slinging in this page against SSB.


 * Go for it. Be bold. Cheers, -Willmcw 22:03, May 24, 2005 (UTC)


 * considering the contiversal nature of the subject perhaps it would be better to lay out your suggestions on the talk page first.Geni 23:59, 24 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Exactly, which is what the anon was proposing doing (I think). Let me also add that it would help the discussion if everyone uses a name and signs their talk-page contributions. Registration is free and actually allows for greater anonymity. Sign by adding four tildes (~) at the end. It iis definitely better to discus matters here, rather than reverting without communicating. Cheers, -Willmcw 02:35, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

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Service activities
Hii, you all can address me as monkey. First suggestion: We need to document all the service activites undertaken by SSB. Is there a need for creating a new subheading for the same in the page? Or can we put it up somewhere else in the page? Monkey

Thanks for contributing, Monkey. A subheaduing is easy to create. Just type two equal signs on either side of the section title - they'll format it as a section header. See the example above. Note that only the initial word and proper nouns are capitalized. Cheers, -Willmcw 01:07, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)


 * Just a reminder that the article already states several times that SSB's followers and his organizations are involved in service projects and charity. Andries 12:37, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Refreshments
Made some changes in the page.

1. Added three pictures. One is the Sarva Dharma Symbol, second is a picture about Sri Sathya Sai Institute of Higher Learning and the third one is about Sri Sathya Sai Institute of Higher Medical Sciences.

2. Added more weblinks about Sri Sathya Sai Baba.

3. Added media reports that caem on service activities undertaken by Sri Sathya Sai Seva Organisations.

Any feedback please discuss here.

Thanks

monkeyishere.


 * Thanks for your contributions. But we will need to cut back on them. Wikipedia is not a web directory. We don't add links just for the sake of adding them. Also, where did you get the photos? Did you take them yourself? Cheers, -Willmcw 02:40, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)


 * Most articles have from 1-20 links. This article has 53. Without losing the official websites, or necessary-for-NPOV critical sites, we need to cut this down. To begin with, we need to remember that the purpose of adding external links to articles is to provide readers of the article with additional information. Forums generally have little information (and much opinion) so I suggest dropping all the forums. News mentions should be included only to cite specific facts, not to serve as a list of press clippings. Usually we should only have one link to any given domain, unless there there are reasons for additional links to specific pages. See external links. Cheers, -Willmcw 06:23, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

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There is no need to worry about copyright issues about the photo. Hope that will address your concern...

Regarding the media reports that i pasted on the page, it was based on the idea that it will document the activites undertaken by the Sai Organisation and all those news reports indicated specific activities undertaken at different locations at different time spheres. So now that it has been removed, i would suggest you to give a summary of activities that Sai organisation has been doing based on those news reports. Otherwise, it would be preferable to keep the newsreports. If you believe that the page size is getting long, then we will come out with a new page for service activities undertaken by the Sai organisation.

Regarding the weblinks, its not necesary to keep those links under External Links, but can certainly be kept under different headings as an alternative. If you have a different idea, do come up with the same. Also, you can notice that the new external links are not one and the same, but are different and provide varied information. Please exhaustively check the weblinks and verify oneself. You will find that resources provided by the weblinks provided are different.

Regarding removal of forums, please mention which are the links which you wanted to be removed, and i would also request you to support your idea with specific reasons.

Wikipedia is "an encyclopedia" and "What Wikipedia is not" do not hinder whatever has been pasted in article page.

monkeyishere.


 * Thanks for your reply. Let's start with the photos. Did you take the photos yourself? If not, then who is the copyright holder and where did you obtain them? Your personal suggestion not to worry is nice, but doesn't answer the questions. -Willmcw 19:50, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)


 * Monkeyishere, I have already removed all the forums and I oppose moving the erxternal links to the related section which is against the style guidelines. Andries 20:13, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

--- Replies

Regarding the photograph: For willmcw - My brother has taken the photograph and hasn't put any copyrights on that. What about the abridged documentation of the news articles?

For Andries - Regarding the forums- Please mention the links that you have removed in this discussion forum. Because i find that some links which are not exactly forums has been removed. Those links provided a lot of informtaion/facts and was not just opinions. I request you to replace them.

About the style guidelines - Are you speaking about the styleguidelines of Wikipedia or the pattern followed in this page? If it is the pattern followed in the page, then there is nothing that stop us from having a relook at the pattern followed here.

Would you like to suggest any other alternative?


 * Thanks for your reply. Please go to the image pages and indicate that your brother is releasing the photos under the public domain, GFDL, or other similar license which allow for unlimited copying for commercial and non-commercial purposes. If there is information in the news articles you linked that is important to this article, then please add the info.   Lastly, please sign and date your talk page contributions. Thanks, -Willmcw June 28, 2005 20:11 (UTC)


 * Monkeyishere, the only website that I removed is Vedamu, a website related to Vedic studies inspired by Sri Sathya Sai Baba which I found hardly related to SSB and his movement. You can also find this yourself by check the history of the version and then the differences between the versions. Other external links removals that I did were only forums. For the rest, I agree with Willmcw's requests and advices to you. The lay out guidelines are general guidelines for all articles in Wikipedia. Please sign your posts by using four tildes ~ Thanks. Andries 28 June 2005 20:29 (UTC)

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hii

1. I've made some changes in the intro section, as i found that the language used was grammatically appropriate. Also put in some additional information.

2. Added a link which depict photographs related to miracles performed by Sri Sathya Sai Baba.

3. Added a link depicting videofilms related to discourses given by Sri Sathya Sai Baba, Vibhuti materialisation performed by Sri Sathya Sai Baba etc.

Willmcw, as per your suggestion i tried to work out the photo suggestion. am unable to understand the different guidelines. could you explain how do i go to the licencing page etc which you mentioned?

monkeyishere


 * The page you're looking for is at image copyright tags. Find the appropriate tag, then edit the image description page and add it there. Let me know if you have any questions. -Willmcw July 6, 2005 20:08 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:01, 2 May 2016 (UTC)