Talk:Sathya Sai Baba/Archive 11

Edit warring and arbitration issues
Following a complaint to the administrators' noticeboard about disruptive editing, I have thoroughly reviewed the recent history of the article and the talk page. I have a number of comments. has engaged in edit warring and has reverted the article a number of times wiping out substantial contributions. This diff spans 8 days and 48 reversions and yet the content of the article is almost identical, except for rearranging a couple of paragraphs. Reverting is not an appropriate editing method. Reverting 3 times on 19 Dec is arguably a blockable offense even though it is one less than a 3RR violation. Even reverting once every couple of days to a favorite or preferred version is a bad practice and will keep the article stuck in a bad state. SS108 has also engaged in inappropriate personal comments. Simply searching for the phrase "You are..." on this page finds it used more often by SS108 than all other editors combined. It does not matter whether a editor runs an anti-Sai web site somewhere else, as long as their behavior here is appropriate and follows the rules. Accusing someone of being "the most vocal critic and defamer of SSB on the internet" over and over again is not how you move forward on editing an article. It is also not appropriate to link to google searches or external web sites on the talk page in order to demonstrate that an editor is opposed to SSB. (It is also not appropriate for opponents of SSB to try and denigrate SSS108 because he is a believer. Just deal with a person's edits on wikipedia and leave the rest of the web to itself.) In general I agree that it is better to cite the Telegraph's report of UNESCO's withdrawal rather than UNESCO's press release. Partly because press releases are by definition self-serving (even if the release is by a supposedly non-political group like the UN), and partly because the press release is not availabe from an official UN web site. Archive.org is probably safe, but for a controversial matter it is better to rely on the primary source, and if that is not available, a reliable secondary source. However, since the two sources agree, this is certainly not an important enough difference to justify an edit war. (Note than when Mick Brown is writing as a reporter the article should state, "The Telegraph reported that UNESCO withdrew..." because a reporter writes with the backing of the whole newspaper. When citing books, he would still be cited as the named author). It seems all parties agree to certain basic facts: A number of sex abuse allegations have been made against Sai Baba; charges have never been filed officially in India; he has never been convicted; he (and/or spokespeople for his organization) denies the charges. It must be possible to state these things in a way that everyone can agree to without just revert warring. I suggest that the section should open by stating clearly that there have been many allegations of sexual abuse and misconduct against SSB, but that no charges have ever been brought and SSB and his spokespeople deny the charges. Then name some specific cases. However, I also believe there is some truth to SS108's complaint that "Just about every single negative article ever published against SSB is mentioned in this article (with more and more wanting to be introduced), despite their redundancy about the allegations." In a case like this where allegations are widespread but unproven, I would be very cautious to only include the best sourced allegations. The inclusion of the two alleged suicides strikes me as a particular problem. While I agree with Fred Bauder that the Michelle Goldberg piece is useable (with caution) to illustrate the wide scope of the allegations, one of its uses here is to state that SSB's connections with Indian government officials have kept him out of court. This sounds like speculation by Goldberg, rather than reporting of facts, and should not be included. Overall this article is a mess, with poor formatting and grammar. For example, who was 18 when Dr. Goldstein's son was allegedly molested, SSB or the son? Discussion of gender changing and other miracles is carried underneath the sexual abuse section. There are many other problems. A great deal of progress could be made if the editors, particularly any native English speakers, would take a few days and undertake to clean up the formatting and grammar, without making any content changes. I am in a tough spot here. The edit warring and continued personal comments require some response. However, it seems that the only regular editors here have either a strong pro-SSB or strong anti-SSB agenda, and if I block or ban SSS108, I will have to personally watch the article to make sure it doesn't deteriorate into an attack article. I also think the disagreements here are rather small, and can be worked out if the editors involved can set aside personal issues. Therefore, I will issue a 48 hour block of SSS108 (24 hours for edit warring and 24 hours for personal comments) which will be suspended—I will not actually carry out the block if SSS108 stops edit warring and making personal remarks. I am also placing the article on 1 revert parole. All editors of this article are limited to one content revert per day (obvious vandalism excepted). Editors who revert more than once may be blocked for up to 24 hours per offense. Hopefully you will be able to discuss your changes and come to an agreement on these issues, or at least agree that as long as "the other side's" version is not much different from the way you would want it, you can let it go for a while to work on some of the more serious problem areas. Thatcher131 04:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * SSS108
 * UNESCO
 * Sex abuse
 * General form and content
 * Remedies against SS108


 * Many thanks, Thatcher, for your exacting review. It was long overdue and thankfully you have provided some good guidelines for improvement of this article. I am especially encouraged by your ostensible agreement about this article being messy, which is something I've been saying for quite some time. As it is rather late here now, I may go forward tomorrow with my edits under your guidelines. Many thanks again for your valuable input. Ekantik talk 06:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

For the most part, I agree with you Thatcher, although there is more going on in the background with attacks on pro-Sai editors and anti-Sai Baba POV pushing in other wikipedia articles than you are aware. I think the 1-revert rule is an excellent idea and should have been used eons ago. I hope you'll stick around, I think your even-mindedness would help alot. Thanks. Jossi has also been a very even-minded stabilizing force also and I thank him or her too.Freelanceresearch 10:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Comments on what Thatchers131 wrote wrote
 * "It seems all parties agree to certain basic facts: A number of sex abuse allegations have been made against Sai Baba; charges have never been filed officially in India; he has never been convicted; he (and/or spokespeople for his organization) denies the charges."
 * No, I do not agree with the summary
 * Hari Sampath has officially filed charges against SSB regarding the sex abuse.
 * It is also untrue that SSB has officially and clearly denied the charges. Some spokespersons refused to comment.
 * Some members and officials of the Sathya Sai organization admit that SSB does genital oilling when pressed, but deny that SSB has engaged in sexual abuse
 * SSB has been charged for violating the gold control act but SSB was acquitted.
 * Andries 18:10, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Hari Sampath claimed he filed charges on behalf of alleged sexual abuse victims who were half-way around the world. He didn't succeed in filing the charges. Sathya Sai Baba has clearly denied the allegations against him and this was even reported in an Indian newspaper as well as Venkataraman (a Sai Devotee) on the official RadioSai website. Sathya Sai Baba was not charged over any sexual abuse allegations. Premanand's petition was dismissed by the court. It did not formally go to trial and lawyers were never present on Sathya Sai Baba's behalf. Therefore, Baba was never "acquitted" because the case wasn't accepted. SSS108 talk-email 23:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

A Proposition
I have made this proposition a couple of times before and it was never agreed to by the editors of this article. In light of recent events, I once again suggest that any content changes that may be perceived as controversial (or that are known as being controversial) be discussed first on this talk page and consensus obtained before making the edit. This would not pertain to grammar or spelling. Before we engage in cleaning up the page, I suggest we see who is willing to abide by this proposition:


 * Freelanceresearch: I Agree.Freelanceresearch 22:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Savidan: I agree. savidan(talk) (e@) 22:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Ekantik: I agree, with the proviso that excessive discussion does not obstruct responsible editing; common sense editing should be respected. Ekantik talk 01:27, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Andries: Partially agree. I will discuss substantical changes before I make them, but I will not always re-discusses disputes that have already been discussed at length. Andries 10:05, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Kkrystian: I Agree. Kkrystiantalk
 * SSS108: I Agree. SSS108 talk-email 17:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with SSS108's proposal because he did not care about concensus but insisted on having the article changes as per wishes anyway. I continue to disagree with his re-structuring of the article that he introduced without concensus. If SSS108 is sincere then he should allow changing the structure back to the way it was before he broke concensus. Andries 10:10, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Andries, all of us have agreed that we will have discussions and obtain consensus before making controversial edits. If you do not want to abide by the proposition, then you are compromising our efforts in building good faith. This is not about the past. It is about the present and moving forward. SSS108 talk-email 16:30, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
 * How can I reasonably expect to reach concensus with some one whom I believe lacks both common sense and the empathy to assess sources? One example of your lack of empathy is that you dismiss ex-devotees as lacking in credibility only because they portrayed publicly for some time to be loyal devotees. I cannot disgress on my personal experience here due to the arbcom decision, but this argument makes a totally unconvincing impression on me. Andries 16:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Andries, I am not the only person who signed the proposition. This is not about reaching concensus with me. It is about a collective consensus. The fact remains that this article is highly controversial. Something has to be done about it. Refusing to cooperate with others will only make matters worse. Everyone else is willing to abide by proposition. If you cannot abide by it, I suggest you disengage. SSS108 talk-email 17:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Howard Murphet
Complaint by Andries: Wiksunn's contradictory statements and actions

on Thatcher131 Wikisunn wrote that information should be sourced to people who were there i.e. Kasturi and here he uses information sourced to Murphet written down as fact. How is Murphet a reputable source? I do not think that Kasturi is a reputable source, but Murphet is even worse. Andries 22:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Andries, I'd say for the very same reasons you cited Kasturi, John Hislop and Shakuntala Balu in the article. If one sets a standard, don't be surprised if others choose to follow it. SSS108 talk-email 22:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * No, Wikisunn set her/his own standards that s/he broke immediately her/himself.
 * Hislop, I can try to remove him. I did not cite Shakuntala Baba, you did. Andries 22:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

To the contrary, yes you did. You cited her through Steel. I simply removed the intermediate source. SSS108 talk-email 22:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * No, I cited Steel, not Balu. You chose to cite Balu. Andries 22:41, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay. You cited Steel citing Balu. Happy? SSS108 talk-email 23:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Steel is secondary source reference that you changed into primary source references. Your behavior in this case contradicts your arguments regarding UNESCO in which you assert that only secondary sources should be used. Andries 18:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Fantastic logic, Andries. So now you are arguing that when you want to quote a reference from a book, you should not quote the book itself, but quote a book that quotes the book! You must also remember that Steel is not notable whatsoever. You object when others cite Murphet citing Kasturi, yet think nothing when you cite Steel citing Balu. The contradictions never end. SSS108 talk-email

Response to Andries: After all the detailed discussions in Thatcher131 talk page related to Sai Baba, it must be clear what I meant by reliable sources. Only those authors / webmasters whose claims match with the realities happening in Sai Baba's ashram can alone be considered as reliable sources. Using references with false claims / untrue statements by authors does not make sense in this context related to Sai Baba. If you want more clarification, we can have a detailed discussion on Howard Murphet in Thatcher's talk page on Sai Baba. Wikisunn 11th January 2007
 * I reverted most of your removals and gave my rather general reason for reverting you here. . Andries 21:13, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

UNESCO
Why not just cite both the archived version of their press releas and the telegraph article? savidan(talk) (e@) 22:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thatcher already gave his opinion why. SSS108 talk-email 23:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes Savidan, this was what I had been saying since Day One. With all respects to Thatcher, I found his comment to be ambiguous; either offline (though archived "safely") reputable press releases from non-political organisations are acceptable for Wikipedia or they are not. He also said that since the two sources do not differ, there is little scope for disagreement. I propose sourcing the information to Mick Brown's Telegraph article while providing additional material from the press release, which does not need to be sourced (per se) and gives a better picture of the affair to the reader. This is common sense editing that is informative to the reader. Ekantik talk 02:07, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I also wanted to point out that G. Venkataraman, on an official Sathya Sai Website, discussed the Unesco Withdrawal and stated that Unesco formally withdrew their notice after being contacted by an Indian Ambassador. I was recently sent a copy of the letter in question and the text is correct. Since this material is located on an official Sathya Sai Website, I believe that this material can be incorporated into the article. SSS108 talk-email 23:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not so sure. The article is clearly an op-ed that may not necessarily reflect the truth of the events as they happened, what to speak of the fact that it is blatantly self-serving. Ekantik talk 02:07, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The attribution would state the relevant facts. This type of information is allowed if it pertains to the subject in question and if it is taken from official websites associated with the subject. Venkataraman is speaking on behalf of Sathya Sai Baba and the allegations leveled against him on an official site directly associated with him. SSS108 talk-email 04:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I apologize for being ambiguous. What I mean is that generally the more contentious a statement is, the better its sources need to be.  Since everyone seems to be in agreement about the basics here, an argument over using the Telegraph versus archive.org seems relatively unimportant.  In this case the newspaper is the better source, for the reasons I outlined.  The UNESCO press release at archive.org should not be used alone.  Does it add something else that the newspaper article left out?  Then use both.  The worst, or least good, source is the piece on the official web site.  It is only even worth thinking about because it agrees with the Telegraph on the essential facts.  (If it disagreed with the others it would be straight to the dust bin as self-serving, unconfirmed and self-published.)  Does the official response add something important that is missing from the other two sources and is the additional material uncontroversial and otherwise acceptable per the self-published sources rules?  If so then cite all three.  If the official site does not say anything new or if what it does say is not appropriate per the self-published rule, then leave it out. Thatcher131 03:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Thatcher, there is an official letter that Unesco wrote in which they expressed regret at publishing that statement on their site and removed it after talking to an Indian Ambassador. This fact was mentioned on the official Sathya Sai Site. I have a scan of the Unesco letter, so I know its true. Needless to say, no published source mentions this fact. SSS108 talk-email 07:52, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid it needs to be left out, then. A reporter looking into the situation could verify the letter with UNESCO and then report it but we can not, and anyone could fake up a letter.  I tend to think its probably true that UNESCO regrets specifically linking their cancelation to allegations of sex abuse (usually such things are done with a diplomatic "no comment") but citations need to be verifiable by any editor.  In theory at least, an editor with access to the right kind of library could verify even very old books or obscure newspapers; we're not going to be phoning the ambassador. Thatcher131 12:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

You know, I just tried rewriting the Sex Abuse section along the lines of my previous edit of 19th Dec. Without explicitly mentioning the contents of the original UNESCO release in some way or form, none of the following points make any sense. It's impossible to work with it in it's current state. I just gave up, I'll need to devote way more time to it. For a start, all the points are in the wrong order. Exactly how much time passed for this article to be degraded into such a sorry state? Ekantik talk 06:48, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Ekantik, why don't you tell us what exactly doesn't make sense. Perhaps what doesn't work for you with work with others input. SSS108 talk-email 16:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Exactly what I said, careless and disruptive editing over an elongated period of time has made the article a messs. Previous discussion has shown that it is impossible to work with disruptive editors. When I get some time (after the holidays) then a complete rewrite will be in order. See my previous edit of 19 Dec to get an idea. The basic point is that a history of the sex abuse allegations is in order and incidents placed in the correct order. Right now it's all jumbled up. Ekantik talk 04:34, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Just as long as you follow the suggestions made on this page about using a temporary page and letting others view and agree with your edits first, I see no problem. SSS108 talk-email 17:41, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

General form and content
I agree very strongly with Thatcher131's comments on general form and content. In fact, I came to this article&mdash;not knowing anything about the Baba&mdash;after seeing it mentioned thousands of times on the RFC page, hoping to clean it up. However, if I'm not considered a neutral enough editor, I'll refrain from doing that at all. I would caution both sides though: no matter how much you succeed in pushing your point of view, if the article looks like crap, no one will buy it.

In general the article suffers from poor sectioning, bad grammar and syntax&mdash;part of which can be attributed to repeating the entire bibliography in the text&mdash;etc. This would take a lot of work on my part to get it up to snuff, and likely either SSS or Andries's faction would disagree with every change I make. So I ask: is there consensus on the fact that the article needs a thorough rewrite for general form and content; I am not interested in doing any research on the subject, so I will neither add or remove any references.savidan(talk) (e@) 23:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree Savidan. Howevever, please tell us what changes you are proposing to make and how you are proposing to make them. We have a disagreement on removing dates (unless they are redundant). I suggest we go through the changes section by section. SSS108 talk-email 23:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Savidan, the main problem with this article is that it needs more eyes so I hope that you continue to stay on and edit the article. I do not consider you to be a biased editor as there is no reason to assume such. Your comments about poor grammar etc. are thoroughly echoed by me and I firmly agree that the article needs a thorough rewrite.
 * If any editor disagrees with your edits then they can just proceed to re-edit (without reverting back to previous form, usually) the words if they can be improved. This type of editing will take the article forward and a slow improvement will be made, and is a better strategy that endless revert-warring. Ekantik talk 02:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Savidan, we can also use this sandbox page: User:SSS108/Sathya_Sai_Baba to see the diffs before we accept them. If you like, you can create your own page. First, you have to save the article as it currently is, then make your edits and see if we agree with them. I think that would be the easiest. SSS108 talk-email 00:16, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think that this suggestion is helpful for general editing as this will take far too long. Perhaps this suggestion can be employed when controversial changes are proposed. Ekantik talk 02:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * That is exactly what I proposed. Since Savidan is proposing major editing, I think using the sandbox would prevent an edit-war and will build consensus and good faith among all involved editors. SSS108 talk-email 06:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

And as an addition to this discussion on form and content, beginning sentences with "According to..." is an incredibly amateur style of attributing sources. This wouldn't be so bad if it was written once or twice in the entire article, but to use it for the beginning of a lot of sentences is poor readability. Please find an alternative grammatical way of attributing sources. Ekantik talk 03:07, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it would be better to keep the sandbox in a neutral location and out of user space, such as Sathya Sai Baba/Cleanup. I would also recommend working on one section at a time, waiting for comments, then copying into the article.  In the interests of peace I suggest that the cleanup process focus on issues of style, grammar, clarity, encyclopedic tone, and so on, and not deal with content issues.  As long as it is only the existing content that is being cleaned up, the process should be non-controversial and non-confrontational, and there is no reason for it to take a long time.  Rewrite a section, wait a day or so for comment or corrections, then paste it in and move on. Thatcher131 18:45, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I have the following proposal for re-structuring. We re-name the entry beliefs and practices in the Sathya Sai Baba movement into the entry Sathya Sai Baba movement and move from the entry Sathya Sai Baba some organizational stuff to Sathya Sai Baba movement. Please note that the relationship between the various organizations and SSB should be stated as much as possible if it remains here. Is SSB a figurehead, founder, de facto or de jure leader, spirtual leader of the various organization? In many cases I do not know and I do not know how to find out. I heard some rumors about the power that SSB has that I will not repeat here.Andries 20:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree to changing the name to Sathya Sai Baba movement (so far only to that). Kkrystiantalk 23:40 (UTC+1) 23 Dec 2006

The Organization section is small and well summarized and I see no reason to move it elsewhere. SSS108 talk-email 23:13, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Because the relationship between the person of SSB and the organization is totally unclear. They only have the names in common and promote their association with SSB. If somebody wants to remove the information about the organizations as off-topic then s/he may have a point. I think the structure of the article will improve if we move information from this article to the article Sathya Sai Baba movement that is is not clearly related to the person of SSB. Please note that lack of coherence of the article was one of the complaints during peer review. See the WikiProject_Biography/Peer_review Andries 07:05, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't it be better to rename 'Movement' to 'Organization' or something similar? 'Movement' seems a little ambiguous IMO. Ekantik talk 07:21, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
 * yes, it is somewhat ambiguous, but it is clear that you can be an SSB devotee without being affiliated to the Sathya Sai Organization. See Talk:Sathya_Sai_Organization In addition, not all followers agree with all the doctrines, so it is not a sect in the meaning of Roy Wallis gave to it. May be Sathya Sai Baba cult would be better, but the problem with the word cult is that it has too many different meanings, though the SSB cult has been labelled as such by several reputable neutral sources, including Lawrence Babb and by Chryssides (though I think that Chryssides scholarhip is flawed). See list of cults. Andries 07:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh ok, then it looks like both 'Cult' and 'Movement' are likely contenders. Either are good choices. Ekantik talk 07:44, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

"Movement" is the best term to use. "Cult" is a controversial word on Wikipedia and one can belong to the SSB Movement without belonging to a "cult". SSS108 talk-email 16:38, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The word "movement" should be used. "Cult" is a very bad term to use. Kkrystiantalk 20:29 (UTC+1) 24 Dec 2006

I fully appreciate Savidan's offer. After re-reading I have to admit that the article suffers from a tortured writings style esp. in controversy sections which is probably due to attempts to stay close to the sources. Andries 18:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Bookstore
Can all sides agree that the link to the "official book store" is not encyclopedic and is commercial, and should therefore be removed? Thatcher131 18:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes. But the person who adds this link has done so repeatedly under various IP's. I attempted to contact them under their IPs to no avail and I have removed that link perhaps a dozen times. SSS108 talk-email 00:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * As long as removal is not contentious than any editor should feel free to do it whenever needed. Thatcher131 01:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Thatcher, I do not believe it is contentious. I have removed it several times and no one ever disagreed. The link is clearly promotional for a commercial site. However, the person/people adding the link are very persistent. I even included hidden text not to add commercial links in that section and it was still ignored. SSS108 talk-email 07:47, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

American vs. British English
We need to agree on which English should be used for the spelling of "organization". Since India uses British English, the Sai Org spells it "organisation". I corrected other spellings to reflect American English but have left the word "organisation" alone because I do not know which English version should be used. I suggest we use American English because organisation redirects to "organization" on Wikipedia. SSS108 talk-email 23:35, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Spelling should be consistent throughout the article, and should be based on the subject matter, or on the spelling preferences of the original major contributors. Your logic seems good here that British spellings should be used, in which case they should be used throughout the article, even organisation. Thatcher131 00:55, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Thatcher, I think American English should be used. Is that what you meant? Or do you think British English should be used? Thanks. SSS108 talk-email 04:01, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I prefer to use American English. The Sathya Sai Organization writes its name with a z for reasons that I cannot understand. See their website. Andries 06:52, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Per above, I think Commonwealth English is best. It appears to be the prefered form of English or the organisation. Although they may call themselves organization, they appear to use Commonwealth spelling in their website predominantly. E.g. centre. Bear in mind although organization predominates, it isn't strictly used in Commonwealth English, check out American and British English spelling differences Nil Einne 09:02, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Aura Miracle
Thank you all for the comments on Thatcher's talk page. Only a limited number of claimed miracles can fit in the article, and they should be clear and concise IMO. Accordingly, how about this change then: "Frank Baranowski, who specialized in kirilian photography and seeing auras, reportedly analyzed Sathya Sai Baba's aura and concluded that Baba was not a human being but a divine personality because his aura was unlike anyone he had seen before. Baranowski claimed that Sathya Sai Baba's aura was so extensive, it appeared to extend beyond the horizon and contained silver and gold bands that he had not observed before."--Dseer 21:30, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * That seems fine to me. It probably needs more of a rewrite to render it to an encyclopaedic formal tone, but the basic substance of it is 0K I guess. I'm in a rush and can't make a suggestion right now but if other editors agree then feel free to include it in the article and I'll probably "formal tone" it sometime later. Ekantik talk 04:37, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Inapproporiate introduction
Why is there information about the number of Sathya Sai Baba's followers in the introduction to the article? I think such information shouldn't be kept in the introduction. I think these two sentences (about the number of his followers) should be removed from the introduction and placed somewhere else. Who shares my view? Kkrystian 13:20 (UTC+1) 25 Dec 2006

Controversial Edits
Thatcher, Andries is making controversial edits without seeking consensus. Although the edits he made have been discussed before, and established as controversial material, Andries went ahead with his edits and has refused to abide by the proposition that everyone has agreed to. Such being the case, I feel I am entitled to revert the article more than once, but no more than 3 times, if needed. This is exactly the problem with Andries non-cooperation. Until all editors agree to the proposition, the edit warring will never stop. I have made my good faith effort and I suggest Andries makes his. SSS108 talk-email 17:37, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
 * SSS108 reverts my edits without discussing the quality of my edits. This is exactly the problem with SSS108. Andries 18:52, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
 * What I understand with cooperation is an intelligent discussion of the quality of edits. I hope that SSS108 will start behaving in a cooperative way soon. Andries 18:57, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
 * What I had done was
 * 1. Correct spelling mistake i.e. though ->through
 * 2. Correct minor misparaphrasing of Kester
 * 3. Removed redundancy in the statement that SSB has never been charged in India
 * 4. Removed some bibliograhical information out of the article, as per Savidan's advice, for example the names of journalists when writing for newspapers and magazines as per Thatcher131 advice. Of cource, this information remained in the references.
 * Andries 19:21, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Andries, until you agree to the proposition, all of your proposed edits cannot be accepted in good faith. And your edits have been discussed in plenty before. They are highly controversial. You should have attempted to seek consensus before making them. You did not. You cannot accuse me of not "behaving in a cooperative way" when you have not fully agreed to the proposition that everyone else has agreed to. SSS108 talk-email 19:33, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I will ignore your comments and questions unless they discuss the quality of the edits and improvements of the article. Here is one of your bad edits that you made
 * "In the India Today magazine (dated December 2000) no complaints had been filed against the Guru, by any alleged victim, in India, though it also states that the magazine is in the possession of an affidavit signed by the German Jens Sethi and that Sethi filed a complaint at the police in Munich, although he did not file a complaint in India."
 * Can you see the redundancy in the sentence that you introduced? This is supposed to be a an article in an encyclopedia and hence concise. Andries 19:37, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I see what you mean. Trying to keep up with the edits made, I overlooked how that setence was poorly worded. I'll remove the extra line. SSS108 talk-email 02:12, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Influences
Isn't the list of people influenced by SSB getting too long? It will not do to include all of SSB's "influencees" in the infobox. Clearly it is also inaccurate given that the SSB-category listings on the Wiki-articles of those persons have been removed by other users. On what grounds is Indian PM Manmohan Singh deemed to be a follower of SSB? Ekantik talk 05:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The refs are supported on these pages: . Singh referred to SSB as "Bhagwan Baba" and said "The concept of Integral education that is a Divine gift of Bhagawan Baba to this Institute, comes closest to ancient ideals." Ekantik, even you said elsewhere, "It would not be out of place to take note of the fact that current Indian Premier, Dr. Manmohan Singh, is also connected with Sathya Sai Baba. The BBC 'Secret Swami' documentary broadcast a clip of Dr. Singh being garlanded while in attendance at one of the Baba's public functions." It's amusing you are asking for information that supports his reference when you already acknowledged the reference yourself elsewhere. The list is only partially done. Sathya Sai Baba is an extremely popular guru who has many high ranking and notable devotees. SSS108 talk-email 06:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * This is insufficient evidence to prove that he is a follower. Please provide reputable sources instead of referring to possibly biased and self-serving websites. Throwing my own words back in my face from 2 years ago is also inappropriate behaviour. And do, the list is not going to be increased at the expense of the article. You need to ask yourself whether such information would be better off within the article (possibly in a new section) or if you want to have an elongated infobox to an already messy article. Ekantik talk 01:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion on sub-categories of Category:Sathya Sai Baba
There is an ongoing discussion here on the sub-categorization of the Category:Sathya Sai Baba; and the pages that should be included in the categories of SSB's followers and critics. Your input and especially any citations you can provide in this regard, will be greatly appreciated. Abecedare 15:02, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Problem with Shiva-Shakti Statements
Some editors are trying to rely on Sai Baba's translated discourse statements as reliable when we have already discussed how the translation from Telugu to English is extremely difficult (near impossible in some cases) and as a result there are many OBVIOUS errors in texts of Sai Baba's discourses. Therefore, english discourses of Sai Baba's speeches should not be used as completely reliable texts. ONLY the Telugu versions would be considered reliable in terms of accuracy. Therefore, the statements in this article regarding Shiva-Shakti contradictions should be removed since they were taken from discourses which may not be accurate.  F r e e l a n c e r e s e a r c h  06:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * No, that is an official publication. Andries 09:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

It is a well-known fact that the translations are not ALWAYS accurate Andries Only th eTelugu translations CAN be used and claimed to be accurate. And, as usual, you are using a controversial issue to push your anti-Sai agenda once again. I wll remove this controversial material.  F r e e l a n c e r e s e a r c h  07:28, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

A suggestion
I have an idea to insert Template:SathyaSaiBaba into the article. Who supports this idea? Who thinks this template should be improved or changed in any way? Kkrystian 11:37 (UTC+1) 31 Dec 2006


 * Let us change "reincarnations" into "claimed reincarnations". Also I do not think that SSB is notable for his interfaith dialogue. May be for his happy syncretism (uniting all faith), but that is a different matter. Also, I think that Benjamin Creme, like Manmohan Singh, Abdul Kalam, and some others are not followers. I know that there are some indications but I consider the proof insufficient. Andries 10:59, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


 * May be the template plus the infobox is too much. Andries 11:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Missing page numbers, years of publication
A complaint has been made in the second arbitration case that the year of publication and page nr.'s are not mentioned in the citations. See Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba_2/Workshop. Can we try to add them? Before you take the effort to go and search in books and google, please note that a lot is already available in the history of the article. Andries 00:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I think we should split the section "notes and references" in sections "notes" and "references". In the section "notes" we only mention only the author, year, page number. And in the section "references" we mention the complete bibliographical data of the used reference. See Mircea Eliade for an example of my proposal. If no objections are voiced I will proceed with this in a few days. Andries 14:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It seems like needless extra work, if you ask me. The references on the Mircea Eliade article do not link to the relevant sections. On this article, they do. It seems to me that the current referencing is adequate. However, if you really want to show us how it will look, use the page that Thatcher suggested and show us what exactly you are proposing first. SSS108 talk-email 14:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Citations, maybe citation templates could be used. See my work on Shilpa Shetty where I have used citation templates for references. A different template can be used for bibliographical quotations obviously. See WP:CITET. Ekantik talk 14:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

1971 Resurrection of Walter Cowan described in Kasturi's 1961 biography
According to John S. Hislop's book My Baba and I Walter Cowan was resurrected from death by SSB. This is also described in Narayana Kasturi's 1961 "Sathyam Sivam Sundaram'' vol I.
 * Hislop, John S. My Baba and I 1985 published by Birth Day Publishing Company, San Diego, California ISBN 0-960-0958-8-8 chapter The Resurrection of Walter Cowan pages 28-31 available online
 * Narayna Kasturi “Sathyam Sivam Sundaram” Volume I 1961 “Chapter “Moves in His Game” ”He brought Walter Cowan back from the region beyond death because, as He said, "he has not completed the work he has to do." “available online

I was aware that the Sathya Sai Book trust was not very accurate in dating etc. but I am still surprized by it. May be somebody has an explanation. Andries 14:32, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It is a well known fact that Kasturi's "Sathyam Shivam Sundaram" was revised. SSS108 talk-email 15:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If it has been revised with such carelessness after Kasturi's death (presumably) then it is no longer a reliable source. Ekantik talk 14:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Merge from Sathya Sai Baba to The Sathya Sai Baba movement
Please leave comments at talk:The Sathya Sai Baba movement. Andries 17:46, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Asian Voice newspaper
What kind of this newspaper is this by the way? It strikes me as a very obscure ad I doubt whether it is a reputable source. It does not even have its own Wikipedia article. In addition the following information sourced to it stating that SSB gives no private interviews strikes me as so utterly completely misguided that it should removed.
 * "Mr Bhagani also stated that when devotees are selected by Baba for a private interview, there is always someone else present in the room, and this is especially the case when women and children meet him."

Andries 23:06, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The Asian Voice newspaper belongs to the ABPL Group. I do not know enough about the newspaper to pass a judgment about its reliability, besides the fact that it has been in print for 34 years in the UK. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It is listed in the British Library, under "Asian Business, Arts and Media in Britain: Asian Print Media" ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * okay. thanks. Here is what is stated
 * Asian Voice (Weekly)
 * English counterpart to 'Gujarat Samachar', with news and features aimed at the
 * Gujarati community in the UK.
 * London: Asian Business Publications.
 * This strikes me as not having a special expertise on SSB, low circulation numbers, and obscure. In other words, not a reputable source. Andries 23:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * "Asian Voice - More of a serious paper, with a focus on the Hindu/Gujarati community in London and Leicester. Circulation unknown, but was around 11,000 the last time it was audited a few years ago. Weekly. Audience much older than EE. Also organise the Asian Diversity Awards." and "Gujarat Samachar (Gujarat news) - A Gujarati language newspaper distributed principally around west London and Leicester and other pockets of the Gujarati community around the UK. No audited circulation. Weekly." .Unless the source is used to assert contentious issues, I would not see much of a problem, but I am not certain about "reliability" per se. You may want to ask UK based editors about this weekly newspaper.  ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I do see a problem, because anyone can claim to be a serious newspaper and the bar for inclusion has been considered too low by and has been set very high for critical information by defenders of SSB. Blatant use of such double standards is not okay, I think. I mean, information from the Indian Skeptic seems more reputable, but that was agreed to exlude. Andries 00:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The newspaper is used to source highly contentious issues and the Asian Voice article also states that Bill Clinton is a follower which strikes me as erroneous and makes the source even more suspect. Andries 00:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Now you may see what I mean by "taking the source as a whole" when evaluating a statement in a publication. The fact that the newspaper makes such a claim about Bill Clinton, shatters the credibility of that source. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:25, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The New York Times made a blunder regarding SSB, (Keith Bradsher A Friend in India to All the World 01 December 2002) but does this mean that the article can still be be cited as long as we do not cite the blunder? I would say, yes, the NYT can still be cited in spite of its blunder. Can the blunder be cited? I would say yes, but I will not cite it myself. Andries 00:32, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * What kind of "blunder"? a defamatory one? If it is such, don't cite it. If harmless, on the other hand, it may be not a problem. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Factual blunder.The NYT described SSB as "Famous for seldom saying much in public even to his followers, [..]" Andries 00:42, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


 * No big deal, then. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think a factual blunder by a reputable source, esp. when they do not publish letters by readers such as in this case, is a VERY BIG DEAL. It is not just an implausible uncorroborated statement; It can be proven to be 100% wrong.  Andries 00:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I can make the very same arguments about Kester's reference. Kester stated unproven allegations as facts, yet I don't see Andries complaining about that. Once again, another attempt to dilute the Pro-Sai stance. It never ends. SSS108 talk-email 01:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * No, the comparison is flawed. The Volkskrant is a reputable newspaper with a wide circulation and with decades of history of reporting the debates about SSB. And Kester had very good reason to report the allegations as facts because they are very well documented. Andries 01:33, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

They are unproven and she stated them as if they were proven. I will wait for the ArbCom ruling because I consider you uncooperative. SSS108 talk-email 01:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Again, you cannot always burden others to make decisions for you in disputes. Please engage in reasonable discussion. Andries 01:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The newspaper is to cater to the Asian community in Britain, providing Asian-oriented news at home and abroad. I cannot say one way or another how reputable their reporting is but I can say that there are several influential Sai devotees on the board. Ekantik talk 14:34, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Ekantik, please provide the references to support your claims. Thanks. SSS108 talk-email 20:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


 * What are you talking about? The title of the paper is itself the proof that it is an Asian localised newspaper. Ekantik talk 01:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact that it is an Asian localized newspaper does not say anything about its reliability or lack thereof. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That was precisely my point, Jossi. By the way, I seriously doubt that they have been in business for 34 years. That may refer to its parent publication Gujarat Samachar, which was first published in India. This is possibly what is meant by 34 years. The crossover to England and it's English equivalent (Asian Voice) is likely to have occurred in recent years, in the last decade or so. I could be wrong of course, but I've lived in England all my life and have never noticed these publications except in recent years. It's reliability is another matter entirely. Ekantik talk 23:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact is that a very obscure newspaper is used to source highly contentious claims without indication, let alone proof, that either the newspaper has good editorial control or that the newspaper or the journalist writing the article in question has expertise regarding the SSB controversy. As such the newspaper is not a reputable source for these highly contentious claims. Andries 21:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * What controversial claims? Seem to be just reporting an opinion of a person. Also note, that expertise on a subject has nothing to do with reliability as it pertains to WP:V. What we need is to assess the reliability of the publication using common sense: is the newspaper well established? Does it have editorial controls in place? etc.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The controversial claims listed here above, as I had already explained to you that SSB gives no private interviews and that the BBC is wrong and that the allegations are not true. Based on what? No, I agree that expertise is not important for WP:V, but it is for WP:RS. I suggest that the editor who wants to retain the statements sourced to the Asian Voice provides proof or at least indication that they have good editorial control. Andries 21:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you saying that this statement is controversial? Mr Bhagani also stated that when devotees are selected by Baba for a private interview, there is always someone else present in the room, and this is especially the case when women and children meet him. Does not seem so. Maybe I am missing something? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is as blatantly untrue as saying that the pope is married. Andries 21:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, that statement is the opinion of that person, and if the source is reliable, and the statement plausible, then it can surely presented properly attributed to the person that made the statement. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:48, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * True, I have no intention to remove information sourced to reputable sources without consent of other contributors even if they are highly erroneous, out of fear that SSS108 will use this against me, even if this makes the article very bad. Andries 21:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Apology for mass deletion
Hello,

Recently, a few weeks, I made a mass deletion in the controversy section right before the holdiay season. I apologize for that, that was completely wrong and a disgrace to Wikipedia. However, I would like to still add a few lines, in light of a recent article sent to the subscribers of the Heart-to-Heart daily message from Swami that debunks many of the most widely publized attacks. Also I would also like to point out that the message of the Baba is very much active online, with a website, daily emails, streaming video of important functions, etc.Also, If anyone has objections, please do not hesitate to explain them to me. I am new to editing, and welcome advise. Otherwise, I will be going ahead with my edit after 24 hours.

(Ani 02:56, 9 January 2007 (UTC))

All this negative press that SSB has garnered is a false. Why put this and tarnish the reputation? There is no concrete proof about any of this. People who are ignorant just offer their opinions and hope to sway the masses. ALSO, why not include the predictions of Baba's birth given throughout various Hindu scriputures as well as Prophet Muhammad's discourse in Vol 13 of the Ocean of Light entitled the Mehedi Moud. He gives an exact description of Sai and what he is all about as well as the current situation of Muhammad's followers. Spideybat123


 * Well, Emperor Ani and Spideybat, I have just left an official welcome message on both of your talk pages. Among other things, links are provided to pages that explain what Wikipedia is all about. If you read through some of those articles carefully, you'll find out exactly why your comments above are one-sided (POV, point-of-view) and thus not suitable for inclusion in this article.


 * In short, this is not a "fanpage" for SSB but an encylopedic article that must be NPOV (neutral-point-of-view). Articles from SSB-oriented online magazines and so-called prophecies are thus not suitable for inclusion. Anyway, those introductory articles should explain what Wikipedia is all about. Happy reading. Ekantik talk 23:53, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I did not make intentions clear, it seems. "Stances by devotees and proponents" is the section I want to add to, merely to reflect the fact that the Heart-To-Heart team recently sent out a letter to subscribers debunking a few accusations. I am sure that adding a few non-biased lines to report this recent development is not close to making this a fanpage, as you rather incorrectly summarised my future actions. I have information to add that will help a reader understand where the debate lays, and as I strongly despise heavily biased "encyclopedic" content, I will leave bias out of the few lines. And I think that if one must add information about prophecies, it has to have no bias as well. Also, Mr. Ekantik, I think calling the prohecies 'so-called' is not very polite. These can be added, provided suitable disclaimer is provided, and the information is provided in a very encyclopedic, no-nonsense way, the way one may talk about the Second Coming of Christ or the Coming of Mahdi, and in the way Mr. Ekantik is used to, I'm sure.

Ani 00:14, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, the whole point of an enyclopedia is that it has to rely on reliable sources (see WP:RS). The site you are referring to is a pro-SSB site that is blatantly self-serving and has an inherent bias even if they don't mean it. This has been discussed briefly above (Talk:Sathya_Sai_Baba). In short, the site is not a reliable source of information and the development you are referring to should be reported in a source like the media (reliable newspapers and the like) for it to merit inclusion in this article.


 * Regarding your prophecies, they are a prime example of POV-pushing (even if you don't mean it to be) because not everybody interprets those prophecies in the way that you do. Christians and Muslims will object to the interpretation of SSB as the Second Coming and the Mahdi respectively, which is why Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Maybe a line or two about how Sai devotees 'regard SSB as the Second Coming etc. can be added but I don't know if this is the correct place. You can try discussing this at Talk:Beliefs and practices in the Sathya Sai Baba movement and can possibly include your prophecies there. Ekantik talk 00:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure is Spideybat123 wants to refer to SSB prophecies as ones of the Second Coming. I would certainly not do that, it has no support that I know of. Although "regard" is an excellent word choice, I shall not be writing about prophecies. However, the 'rebuking of accusations' information was not and will not be sourced from the main SSB site. The Heart-To-Heart sent it. I would like to phrase the information in the way one would write about major fan websites' reaction to a huge rock band splitting. I am not sure if the author of the rebuke published elsewhere in newsmedia. For example, in a completely unrelated topic, the PSLV space vehicle launch in India was barely, if at all, reported by the international press. The media has always relied upon external sources for information, and nowadays, websites, memos, emails, etc. are often the source from which the media gets a lot of its information. I repeat that I will not be biased, but I shall do what journalists strive to do all the time, and that is to simply report the facts.

Ani 03:39, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Please give examples of what you intend to write here first. Thanks, Ekantik talk 04:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikisunn's edits
Wikisunn, Thatcher's talk page is not actually an appropriate venue for discussing momentous changes to this article, as editors here may not be necessarily aware of the discussion taking place there. Besides that, I happen to think that your edits are in violation of several WP policies including WP:NPOV and WP:RS. Please stop reverting the article as this is already under 1-revert parole. Thanks. Ekantik talk 05:59, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Just for reference, please see Unresolved problems in Sathya Sai Baba's Article and Howard Murphet from Thatcher's talk-page. Wikisunn, please ensure that you carry on any discussion here as this is the appropriate venue. You may also wish to observe that this article is currently the subject of an ArbCom case. Ekantik talk 06:10, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikisunn, you accused me at Unresolved problems in Sathya Sai Baba's Article of not assessing the reputability of Nagel's writings. This is untrue. It was very extensively treated in mediation with the agreement between SSS108 and Andries that her somewhat outdated 1994 Dutch language University press article could be cited, but not her updated English writings. Andries 21:14, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I am sure, many of the editors are already aware of this, Thatcher has created a special discussion page on Sathya Sai Baba in his talk page User talk:Thatcher131/SSB, as it will serve as a neutral ground. There are number of issues being discussed. I cannot start posting my questions here as suggested by Ekantik, as they are part of an ongoing detailed discussion and other editors would not understand what issues we are talking about, so I would suggest other interested editors to look at the above link. Wikisunn 14th January 2007


 * Wikisunn, you reverted this article with the edit summary that I should have discussed my objections at User talk:Thatcher131/SSB. I did reply to you before I reverted, but I will not extensively discuss the veracity of the assertions voiced in reputable sources for three reasons.
 * The first reason is that this this is beyond the scope of Wikipedia, because Wikipedia is not a discussion forum and Wikipedia only reports what reputable sources have written about a subject.
 * The second reason is that such discussions tend to be very tedious.
 * The third reason is without wanting to sound arrogant that I know the debate about SSB so well that I only occasionally hear new arguments, and only very rarely hear argumeents that are both new and convincing. But I really try to be open for evidence of being wrong. For me these discussions are to a great extent a waste of time.
 * Andries 18:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikisunn's edit removed content and substituted poor headings, any basis for undoing his edit? Ekantik talk 02:35, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Aha, I see that it has already been done. Wikisunn, please explain with reference to WP Policies and Guidelines your problems with WP:NPOV and WP:RS. You cannot remove content based on what you think qualifies as POV and unreliable sources. If you continue to revert the article based on such flimsy interpretations then you will be guilty of revert vandalism. Ekantik talk 02:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Ekantik, You may not be aware of this, the discussions related to these edits has been on going for several weeks. There is a whole detailed section of discussions in Thatcher talk page on Sai Baba related to this. Also there is an ongoing discussion between Andries and myself in Thatcher's page and we are waiting for Thatcher's comments related to this issue.

Wikisunn 16th January 2007


 * Yes I am aware of that sub-page, having participated there myself. My point is that it is not a suitable arena for heavy discussion relating to content on this article. Thatcher only set that page up due to conflict between editors that was occurring at the time, it is not meant to be a venue. This is the appropriate venue for discussing massive changes to this article, please try to continue the discussion here. Maybe Thatcher will appropriate your earlier comments here as well.
 * Well I still disagree with your views. You are misinterpreting Wikipedia policies. Ekantik talk 04:07, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Ekantik, In Thatcher’s talk page on Sai Baba, there are number of very important discussions related to the article and this is not the only discussion going on there. I don’t see why I have to move a part of an on-going here, when the rest of the related discussion is in Thatcher’s talk page. A simpler solution will be that any interested editor can contribute their ideas in Thatcher’s page related to these discussions. An administrator’s specially created talk page is a better venue for discussing controversial arguments when two editors don’t agree on a point of view. I don’t see why there is any problem in discussing controversial edit issues between editors, in Thatcher’s Sai baba talk page when Thatcher encourages it, and also it will be a neutral ground where editors will use high standard references and involve in healthy discussions rather than getting side tracked with un-related arguments.

Wikisunn 17th January 2007

Alice Coltrane
Alice Coltrane is another well known devotee of Sathya Sai Baba. SSS108 talk-email 00:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Reminders and Bibliography of Sathya Sai Baba
1. I am still waiting for proof or at least some indication that the obscure newspaper Asian Voice is a reputable source. I will remove contentious contents sourced to it in a few days unless such indications is provided 2. Please take a look at Sathya Sai Baba/Cleanup and its history. 3. I am going to create a bibliography of Sathya Sai Baba. The books by SSB (Vahini series) are now excluded from this article because the list was deemed too long by among others SSS108. See e.g. bibliography of Mircea Eliade for an example. Andries 23:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Andries, the burden of proof is on you to prove that it is not a reputable source. I have yet to see your proof. Provide the proof or I will revert. SSS108 talk-email 06:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * No, there is no indication that the very obscure newspaper Asian Voice is a reputable source. The burden of proof is on the contributor wanting to retain the material. Andries 20:18, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The company that owned/owns the Asian Voice has been in business for over 20 years. The quotes are cited and referenced to the Asian Voice and the information about the company has already been provided. You have yet to refute it. Simply saying you don't accept it as reputable is not enough. Make your case. SSS108 talk-email 18:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * No, SSS108, salon.com that you still want to exclude as a source has extensive editorial control. Where is the indication that the very obscure newspaper Asian Voice has editorial control? Andries 18:11, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Asian Voice is not an "obscure" newspaper/magazine. They claim to have been in business for 34 years. You are simply trying to remove information that argues against your POV. SSS108 talk-email 20:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

This is too funny, considering Andries listed an Asian Voice article directed against Sai Baba in the notes and references section. See #96. New Allegations Of Abuse Against Sai Baba by Payal Nair, Asian Voice, June 26, 2004: Available online.  F r e e l a n c e r e s e a r c h  07:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

And this copy of the Asian Voice article from the anti-Sai site even has you know who's name and email address on it. F r e e l a n c e r e s e a r c h  07:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I already mentioned above: Asian Voice has not been in business for over 20 years. That probably relates to the original Gujarat Samachar newspaper (Gujarati newspaper published in India) and of which the Asian Voice is the English-branch, and has only been around for a few years. At least, I have not seen this newspaper until reent years after a lifetime of living in the UK. I can try to visit the British Library sometime next week to see if I can get some confirmation on this, although I wouldn't raise any hopes. Ekantik talk 02:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is the information you need: Ref SSS108 talk-email 06:47, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * And I would like to see what exactly you are going to do with the bibliography section. I expect you will try to cite Brian Steel again. SSS108 talk-email 06:56, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * No, only works by SSB i.e. the Vahini series as per bibliography of Mircea Eliade that you considered too lengthy for inclusion here. I never agree with the exclusion, though I can understand that there is some good reason for your opinion. Andries 20:18, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Exceptional Controversial Claim
Andries wants to add the following claim related to Sathya Sai Baba regarding changing his sex from Male to female and back to male from one instance to another for having Sex. Give all your feedbacks regarding this claim.

Alleged sex change

There are a couple of claims that Sathya Sai Baba can change into a woman instantaneously. For example, the former follower Keith Ord claimed that he personally experienced Sathya Sai Baba literally transform his genitals from male to female. Keith Ord said that Baba was not a hermaphrodite but, from one moment to the next, completely changed from male to female, with the corresponding genitals of each. Keith Ord felt this gender transformation was a type of miracle and expressed the opinion that Sai Baba lives on another level than mere mortals.[83]The former follower Alexandra Nagel also related the story of Tal Brooke, as taken from his book Avatar of the night, in which Brooke related an account from a man named "Patrick" who alleged that Baba had a vagina and that he had coital sex with the guru. She further stated in that article that this alleged sex change may be related to Baba's claim to be the incarnation of both the male and female aspects of God, Shiva and Shakti respectively.

Following are the references quoted by Andries related to this claim. 1. 1994 Nagel's article published by the Free university of Amsterdam press, 2. HP/De tijd, 3. Helena Klitsie's book and , 4. and Tal Brooke?

Wikisunn 9th February 2007


 * This exceptional claim about Sai Baba changing his sex from one instance to another is utterly absurd and ridiculous. In wikipedia reliable sources ::http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Reliable_source there is an article about using the best judgement of sources and common sense. When I asked Andries if he thinks it is possible for some one to change his / her sex from time to time. Has anybody accomplished such a feat till date? He said it is not possible but thinks this is one of Sathya Sai Baba’s tricks. How is it that such a trick is possible in reality?


 * When I had a discussion in Fred Bauder (arbitrator's) talk page regarding this exceptional claim, he also agreed that there is no good source to prove that Sai Baba actually did this sex change. This claim definitely lacks sound editorial judgement and common sense.

Wikisunn 9th February 2007


 * The reputable sources for the sex change claim are
 * 1. Alexandra Nagel's 1994 university press De Sai Paradox, agreed by SSS108 and Andries to be a reliable source during mediation.
 * 2. Several of Piet Vroon's articles (columns) in de Volkskrant (described by Nagel's 1994 article)
 * 3. The article De wonderdoener by Piet van der Eijk. 31/1/1992, pp. 46-50. (described by Nagel's 1994 article)
 * 4. The book Avatar of the Night by Tal Brooke and
 * 5. The book Liefde's Logica by Helena Klitsie.
 * I hope that someone can explain to me why a claim, even an exceptional claim, that is sourced to multiple reliable sources should be removed. Especially SSS108 has something to explain, because he suddenly seems to diverge from the agreement made during mediation about the reliability of Nagel's 1994 article.
 * Andries 15:48, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree Wikisunn. This information should be removed. But at the same time, it makes one wonder about the mental state of the few alleged victims who claimed they experienced exactly that. The information about suicides should also be removed (even Thatcher alluded to it as well). This article is a mess and I am personally tired of arguing. SSS108 talk-email 01:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Regarding Tal Brooke's third-hand account of "Patrick" in his book, it is amusing to note that Lawrence A. Bapp said of it, "The animus of Brooke's book (1979) is too strong for one to have much confidence in its accuracy." A interesting opinion from a scholar. SSS108 talk-email 01:16, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * We can include Babb's opinion too. I see no reason to exclude information disccused in and sourced to mulitple reliable secondary. (Babb and Nagel), as well as multiple reliable primary sources. Andries 11:22, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I know from looking at the documentation that there is a high incidence of mental illness, particularly schizophrenia and admitted alcohol/drug abuse within the group of ex-followers. I do believe Piet Vroon is/was an atheist. I think he is the author who was found dead from a possible overdose. I went back to see if I could find anything on his death and I found a biographical article which states that Vroon was a psychiatric patient at the end of his life.

The supernaturally morphing genitalia claims seem very dubious and I question the mental state of those four or five persons claiming such. Especially when those and others are at the same time claiming Sai Baba is a fraud. Apparently they want it both ways.

If Vroon is a considered a reliable source when he is reporting supernaturally morphing genitalia phenomena, then maybe David Icke and his alien shape-shifting reptiles should be considered a reliable source too! The issue I guess is, if a supposedly reliable source really messes up should they still get a pass on bad reporting? I could detail the way in which each media outlet has really messed up on the Sai Baba issue by either not reporting the facts correctly or leaving out certain info which misleads the audience. For example, trying to give the public the impression Alaya Rahm (who also told Nagel he experienced the supernaturally morphing genitalia) was a child when he alleges sexual encounters with Sai Baba when the truth is he was an 18 and 19 year old adult at the time he alleges those incidents occured and he continued to go back for more interviews. Other alleged victims and ex-followers have tried to give the same impression that alleged vitims were children when they were actually adults. As a molestation victim at the age of 13 I know from experience that an adult is NOT traumatized in the way a child (who may not have protective mechanisms) is by sexual advances by an adult.  F r e e l a n c e r e s e a r c h  10:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I am glad that you finally agree that the article is in a mess, SSS108, although several editors are of the opinion that it is so because of a constant battle between opposing editors. As for this sex-genital issue, I am going to post here a comment that I made on Wikisunn's talk-page before reading here: According to SSB-literature, devotees believe in a host of strange stories and equally "brainwashed and gullible" stories that put this genital controversy to shame. Just one example of this is the claim of how Isaac Tigrett was actually responsible for the fall of Communism because SSB appeared to him in an out-of-body experience and gave him a needle and told him to "poke holes" in a dark cloud over Russia. The cloud dissipated after said poking and thus Communism fell shortly after (Transcript of talk and the video of the talk is being sold on SSB-sites). There are many more such strange stories. SSB literature also reports how SSB transformed his greying hair to jet-black in a few seconds by his own will, for example, so genital-swtiching with a "snap of the fingers" is not that much of a surprising claim except for its connection to the sex abuse controversy. It has been mentioned in reliable news sources. Please note that I personally don't care if this information is removed or retained in the article or whether it is of important connection to the general sexual abuse controversy, as my main points are that it is sourced in reliable media and that I disagree with the self-contradictory rationales employed in arguing for its removal. Yes, editors are supposed to judge the best sources in a reasonable and commonsense way, but it is not for editors to analyse whether the information in reliable/reputable sources is true or correct vis-a-vis Wikisunn's question: "Has anybody accomplished such a feat till date?" Wikipedia is not a publisher of original research but is a reporter (see WP:5). The passage in question is just a small paragraph of the article and doesn't have to be removed because it disturbs the faith of SSB-followers. This article has seem far too much wikilawyering than humanly possible and its time for that to stop. Ekantik talk 02:46, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * What is interesting is that Andries fights for removal of some ridiculous claims (that kirlian photography shows he has a divine aura) but fights for inclusion of other ridiculous claims, like gender changing. I think the purpose is to hold SSB and his followers up to ridicule, and that is unfortunate, because it is not the purpose of this encyclopedia to take sides.  Also, at least some of the sourcing is third hand, which does not really qualify it as reliable, no matter who actually put it to paper.  What I'm not clear on is if this claim was ever made as part of the official biography/history/mythology of SSB, or if the claim is only been made by a small number of followers who might be deluding themselves about their own sexual experiences.  If the former, then I think it can be carefully included.  In general, I think the article should deal fairly and neutrally with SSB's "official" life story and claims of divinity, while also dealing fairly with the reports and analysis of skeptics.  If gender changing has never been part of the official SSB story, then I think it becomes necessary to examine the sources more carefully; one or two individuals' personal experiences about gender changing do not make for a reliable story, no matter who wrote it down.  Compare with the alleged abilty to materialize objects--SSB has apparently done this in front of large audiences many times, so reports of the miracles and the analysis of skeptics is on a different level than sexual allegations made by just a couple of people.  Are we dealing with many people who were interviewed and examined by a neutral scholar, or a couple of people whose stories were reported without critical evaluation by a writer who himself was biased in some way? Thatcher131 05:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Thatcher,
 * There are 2 issues here. The ridiculous claim itself is an issue. Second is the reliability of sources.


 * 1)Problem with the Gender Change claim: The claim is questionable and suspicious. Wikipedia policy of reliable sources talks about the best judgement of sources and common sense. Even during by discussion with Fred Bauder about this claim he agreed that the claim lacks source about Sai Baba actually changing his sex. The following were his words, "I don't know that I fully understand the dispute about SSB turning into a woman and back into a man. I can imagine a good source for claims that he did, but not a good source for actually doing it. ". This claim definitely lacks sound editorial judgement and common sense.


 * 2)Problems with the Sources: If you look at the sources like Nagel or Helena Klitsie they are all giving the story related by a third unknown person, they never said they experienced it directly. The next reference by Andries says "Several of Piet Vroon's articles (columns) in de Volkskrant (described by Nagel's 1994 article)". de Volkskrant paper is still influenced by the Catholic Christian Party and their centiments and it has published even other negative attacks on Sai Baba(Popular Hindu Guru). There is also a question of bias here.


 * If we look at all these references and the questionable claim there is no evidence to prove the reliability of the claim itself. Andries keeps quoting about the Mediation by BostonMA regarding Nagel as a source. Even in that mediation they never discussed about this claim.


 * I think this claim should not be included in this article as the source itself is not reliable and also the claim is ridiculous and lacks common sense and will further disrupt the article which has under gone through several edit wars and 2 arbitrations.

Wikisunn 10th February 2007
 * Wiksunn, your comments about de Volkskrant are so completely misguided that I suggest you ask other Dutch people about it. The gender change claim is mentioned in the best available source possible for Wikipedia i.e. a peer reviewed university press article about the subject. (Nagel 1994 De Sai Paradox) I strongly object to your repeated removal of well sourced material on such flimsy motivations. I consider your behavior disruption of Wikipedia. Andries 21:53, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Andries, When you wrote the bibliography you discussed with every body but for this exceptional claim you never discussed with any editor and you added it to the article. You are the one pushing your POV and adding controversial claims to the article. Also you told me in the discussion that sss108 never opposed this claim, now you saw how he is against adding this claim. So far you are the only person wanting to add this claim and claiming that the sources are reliable. Arbitrator, administrator and all other editors so far are all against adding this claim as it is ridiculous as well the sources are not reliable and questionable. Wikisunn 12th February 2007


 * In fairness to Andries, it was I who brought the objections about the aura information and, in transparency, I still hold those opinions; the sex-change allegations are better sourced than the aura information which is ultimately the testimony of one man who claimed he could see fantastic things in SSB's aura, but I agree with your general comment on this issue. As for your questions perhaps Andries can provide more information from those Dutch sources but what I know from Tal Brooke's side is that it is a third-party claim, namely that he "heard" the story that SSB allegedly had a vagina (malformed genitals either way, possibly a eunuch) from a "Patrick" who was allegedly molested by SSB. Brooke himself reported molestation performed on him by SSB. I agree that the subject of SSB's genitals cannot be precisely sourced to Brooke since he cannot provide verification for his claims. And perhaps Andries can provide more information about other sources.


 * As far as molestees possible self-delusion, this is actually the problem; there are so many wild and unverifiable "fantastic" claims about SSB's paranormal abilities that it is hard to discern what is true and what isn't. For example there are two popular stories about SSB ressurecting the dead, and one of these has been analysed and found to be non-viable. Also considering the "hair dye" example above and if I may be allowed to make a point, I personally find it rather hypocritical of SSB-followers to believe in all sorts of claims about SSB's paranormal abilities but cannot bring themselves to believe that he may have the power to transform his own genitals for whatever purpose. But if you ask me, I personally think this is all very weird and that is why I would stick to the general sex-abuse controversy. Ekantik talk 06:42, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thatcher131 one of the reputable sources describing this claim is the 1994 article by Nagel that had already been extensively disccused and agreed to be a reputable source during mediation. User:BostonMA/Mediation/Sathya_Sai_Baba/Nagel_as_source.
 * You asked
 * "Are we dealing with many people who were interviewed and examined by a neutral scholar, or a couple of people whose stories were reported without critical evaluation by a writer who himself was biased in some way?"
 * There are quite a lot of young man who report these claims. Some of them were interviewed by Nagel and I would argue that the former is the case.
 * Andries 08:32, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thatcher131, The sex change claim is made by former followers, not by current followers. I am aware that the sex change claim weakens the case of former followers. So your accusation that I want to ridicule SSB by inclusion of this claim is completely untrue. Andries 08:37, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thatcher131, the sex change claim is reported in scholarly sources. The aura/kirlian claim not. Andries 15:49, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Ekantik, do you believe that Sathya Sai Baba can miraculously transform his genitals? I would appreciate an answer.

I also find it amusing that Ekantik, of all people, is attempting to point out strange beliefs held by Sai Devotees when Ekantik is a Hare Krishna Congregational Member and a Gaudiya Vaishnava who has openly defended his belief that Lord Krishna literally manifested 16,000 seperate human forms, married 16,000 seperate women, copulated with each one of them and generated innumerable offspring. Sanjay also believes that Lord Krishna held an entire mountain aloft on his pinky finger for 7 days and nights and defends scriptures that say the Lord Vishnu (a male) transformed himself into a woman (Mohini Devi). So it appears that Ekantik and Sai Devotees are not really that different as far as strange beliefs and miracle stories are concerned. I can't help to wonder why Ekantik mocks strange beliefs when he holds them himself.

Funny how Ekantik and Andries (critics of Sathya Sai Baba) want to promote "well sourced" stories about gential switch tales and think the aura reference (written by a doctor in a well known Sri Lankan newspaper) is not "well sourced". This whole thing is POV and the attempt to skew the article with a POV is evidenced by these discussions. Good luck Wikisunn. You see what you are up against? SSS108 talk-email 20:12, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * SSS108, I strongly object against your personal remarks regarding Ekantik. Andries 20:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Andries, I strongly object to Ekantik's personal and off-topic remarks against Sai devotees. His comments are irrelevant to the article. I don't see you making any complaints against him. SSS108 talk-email 07:06, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * SSS108, if you strongly object then you could have just said that instead of launching personal attacks upon other editors. Instead of trying to turn every single discussion section into a pointless war with everyone, you'll take the time to notice that I was responding to Thatcher's point about "self-delusion of molestees". If some molestees claim that they saw SSB switch his genitals and that such a belief is "strange", the belief of SSB devotees can also be called into question. It is your opinion that this is off-topic, which is wrong because such beliefs are contained within the article. For example, the article claims that SSB ressurected a man from death. Following Wikisunn's line of reasoning: "Has anybody accomplished such a feat till date?" In that context it appears that Erlendur Haraldsson (a scientific researcher who researched SSB's miracles) did not think that the "ressurected" person even died in the first place. Mind you, this is a talk-page for discussion about the article, not the article itself.
 * Furthermore, you are not here as a representative of the interests of "Sai devotees" nor are you here to use Wikipedia as a soapbox to defend them. So kindly refrain from indulging in disparaging and personal attacks on other editors and making frivolous objections that distract the general discussion. Ekantik talk 18:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Ditto. As if my religious beliefs (which are also the religious beliefs of all Hindus) have any bearing on this discussion about SSB. SSS108 is deliberately trying to malign me by following an identical line of argument that he constantly employs in his off-wiki attacks against me, which is thoroughly non-productive in a discussion like this. It may also be interesting to point out that the religious beliefs of other editors that SSS108 ridicules are themselves fully supported and endorsed by SSB. Self-contradiction if ever there was one.


 * As for my supposed "mocking" of strange beliefs, I similarly find it amusing that SSS108 supposedly supports the contention that SSB miraculously changed his hair colour in an instant, raised people from the dead, responsible for the fall of Communism, etc etc. I generally object to the inclusion of information about SSB's aura because it is pseudoscientific and thus unsuitable for Wikipedia. Another problem I have with it is that it is not sourced reputably. Note that I do not object to the information itself as long as a proper reputable and reliable source is found to support it. There is none, because the topic of auras itself is pseudoscientific. Perhaps some of the POV-warriors here will have to accept that fact and move on. Ekantik talk 02:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Ekantik, to the contrary, if you do not want your religious beliefs discussed, you should not attempt to portray yourself as some sort of rational and logical person who finds the beliefs of Sai Devotees amusing and strange. You hold very similar beliefs in your own belief system. And where did I say I believe the claims that Baba miraculously changed his hair color, raised people from the dead and is responsible for the fall of communism? I never stated that I believe in these things and I would like you to back up your comments (which you never do). I wonder why Andries, the Wiki-Patrol, isn't admonishing you for your unsupported personal comments against me? SSS108 talk-email 07:06, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * SSS108, you are to be reminded of the principle of WP:NPA: Comment on content, not on contributors. If you continue to bring in personal remarks that have no place in Wikipedia (especially when such things can be stated during current ArbCom proceedings) then I trust you will not protest when a complaint of sorts is lodged against you. In essence, please refrain immediately from making personal remarks directed at other editors. If you feel that you cannot follow Wikipedia policies in this way, then please take the time to consider your participation here. Ekantik talk 17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Ekantik, you are reminded that you were the one who made off-topic comments about Sai Devotees that is not relevant to the article. Stay on topic. Please stop with your public posturing. Anyone interested in your real extra-Wikipedia activities against Sathya Sai Baba can read the Evidence Section for the new RFA. SSS108 talk-email 07:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * SSS108 if you want to get petty, your comment about the mental states of sexual molestees was not only off-topic, but repulsive. Congratulations for violating WP:DE. I'd like to submit that SSS108's recent and continual behaviour in this discussion (vis-a-vis pointless personal attacks on other editors) is akin to trolling, and so I would like to employ WP:DENY on SSS108 and I would appreciate it if other editors did the same. Unless and until SSS108 feels that he can make substantial and relevant contributions to this discussion he should be denied recognition. Regards, Ekantik talk 18:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I would also like to add that these genital-switch claims seem to be related SSB's own public statements about his androgynous nature. He has claimed to be a dual incarnation of Shiva and Shakti (male and female Hindu deities) and, according to semi-biographical sources, was notably effeminate in his youth that was exemplified by his occasional wearing of saris and other female-type attire. Ekantik talk 03:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * SSB wore saris and other attire in plays he performed in his youth, which is a common practice in India. SSB's alleged effeminacy is no different than Lord Krishna's well known effeminancy that you seem to have no problem with whatsoever. And you did not answer the question: Do you or do you not believe in the alleged genital-change stories? SSS108 talk-email 07:06, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Wearing saris is dramas is completely different to wearing saris during public functions and religious celebrations where he was worshipped as an incarnation of Durga or similar goddesses, and also at the inauguration of his new temple. Ekantik talk 17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I would like to inform you Ekantik, that auras are not pseudoscientific. Krystian 14:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I would like to inform you, Kkrystian, that I heavily protest against your usage of my real name at Wikipedia, and have takne the liberty of replacing it with my user name. I would also like to inform you that auras as pseudoscientific; see earlier discussions on this issue at Talk:Sathya_Sai_Baba/archive9 where I made my point about this. The facts are that auras are not scientifically recognised, and that kirlian cameras can capture auras is a claim made only by the founder (Semyon Kirlian). Thus it is pseudoscientific. Ekantik talk 17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * So what if Kirlian/Aura is pseudoscience? This article is full of unscientific/pseusoscientif claims. What matters is that the gender change has been reported by scholarly sources, and the kirlian/aura story not. Thousands of miracles have been reported about SSB or attributed to SSB. If we write down miracle stories then we should only write down the miracles that have been described in scholarly sources. Andries 19:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll agree with that. In that sense we return to one of my original points, that this claim about auras is from an op-ed obviously biased (devotional) and uncritical article in a newspaper, not a scholarly source ny any stretch of the imagination. Although I agree that this is a relatively small issue and we should concentrate on the bigger ones. Ekantik talk 01:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm against including it. Krystian 11:51, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Outside comment

 * 1) The claim itself is not presented as a fact. It is attributed to specific people as reported in reliable sources.
 * 2) The fact reported in the disputed paragraph is that people have claimed a morphing ability.
 * 3) Notable (scientific and popular) sources have for some reason or another deemed this information relevant to the subject.
 * 4) The wording of the paragraph is neutral and does not convey approval or disapproval.

The question whether or not this has really happened is not addressed in the para. If this question is addressed in relevant sources, it should be added to the paragraph. Any sourced accusations or admissions that the people who claim this are trying to hurt the reputation of SSB (whoever that may be, I just came across this article tracking possible vandalism) should also be included.

In short, the paragraph presented at the top of this section in itself fulfills all requirements and can go into the article. Not having read the article I cannot fully comment on other considerations, such as Undue Weight. AvB &divide; talk  08:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Relevant independently checked translations regarding the gender change. User_talk:Andries/Translations_SSB_1. I will give a point for point rebuttal to user:Wikisunn's objections to inclusion of the gender change. Andries 09:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * FWIW, my comment was based on my own reading of the Dutch sources. The one I found most interesting/relevant/verified was Vroon's published report on a telephone call to the person who claims to have witnessed a supernatural sex change. ("Here comes the supernatural anaesthetist...") Vroon, unlike suggested above (a suggestion that escapes removal based on WP:BLP only because Vroon is dead) was totally compos mentis when he wrote that. A keen, intelligent observer and writer. AvB &divide; talk  12:24, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Avb, thanks, If you live in the Netherlands then your comments about Wikisunn's assertion that "de Volkskrant paper is still influenced by the Catholic Christian Party" would be appreciated. I am no fan of Piet Vroon's writings. Andries 13:32, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yep, I live in the NL. The Volkskrant paper is one of the Netherlands' two "quality newspapers", the other one being the NRC Handelsblad. The Volkskrant is fiercely independent, regardless of its Catholic roots. No truly Catholic paper would ever give Vroon, a skeptic and atheist, a platform. For more or less fundamentalist newspapers, look at the Reformatorisch Dagblad or the Nederlands Dagblad; for a moderate protestant Newspaper look at Trouw.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Avb (talk • contribs) 01:20, 18 February 2007 (UTC).


 * Andries I will like to point on how you have been contradicting your own statements regarding the Sathya Sai Baba gender change claim. You said during our discussion in Charles Mathew(arbitrator’s page) the following statement. “Nagel gave the story of a named person called Keith Ord. Nagel found it remarkable that Ord confirmed Brooke's bizarre story, though like Babb she critized (some aspects of) Tal Brooke's writings.” Andries 06:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC) . This statement is in contradiction to your earlier statements.


 * You agree Nagel herself called it a bizarre story
 * You agree even Nagel Criticized some aspects of) Tal Brooke's writings
 * Also your next statement about Piet Vroon's writings whom you want to use as a source for this claim is also contradictory. Your exact words were “ I am no fan of Piet Vroon's writings”.


 * Look at your own statement for a moment you agreed that Nagel gave the story of a named person called Keith Ord. You want to add a derogatory claim in the article about Sai Baba because Nagel has written a story of unknown person? Now you want to show a story as a evidence / reliable source for this exceptional claim?. I will also like to point that your statements related to your sources you want to use are neither consistent and you keep contradicting yourself. I am not the only editor who opposed this ridiculous claim there has been a strong opposition from all the other editors and even the administrator questioned adding this claim. I have copied the comments made by the other editors involved in the Sathya Sai article who disagree publishing this claim.


 * Opposition to the claim – comments by editors, administrator and arbitrator


 * I agree Wikisunn. This information should be removed. SSS108 talk-email 01:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The supernaturally morphing genitalia claims seem very dubious and I question the mental state of those four or five persons claiming such. Especially when those and others are at the same time claiming Sai Baba is a fraud. Apparently they want it both ways. Freelanceresearch 10:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The claim is questionable and suspicious. Wikipedia policy of reliable sources talks about the best judgement of sources and common sense.Wikisunn 10th February 2007


 * Please note that I personally don't care if this information is removed or retained in the article or whether it is of important connection to the general sexual abuse controversy, as my main points are that it is sourced in reliable media and that I disagree with the self-contradictory rationales employed in arguing for its removal. Ekantik talk 02:46, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * If gender changing has never been part of the official SSB story, then I think it becomes necessary to examine the sources more carefully; one or two individuals' personal experiences about gender changing do not make for a reliable story, no matter who wrote it down. Compare with the alleged abilty to materialize objects--SSB has apparently done this in front of large audiences many times, so reports of the miracles and the analysis of skeptics is on a different level than sexual allegations made by just a couple of people. Are we dealing with many people who were interviewed and examined by a neutral scholar, or a couple of people whose stories were reported without critical evaluation by a writer who himself was biased in some way? Thatcher131 05:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know that I fully understand the dispute about SSB turning into a woman and back into a man. I can imagine a good source for claims that he did, but not a good source for actually doing it. Fred Bauder 16:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Opposition to the reliability of sources used for the claim: Other editor's comments


 * 1) The book Avatar of the Night by Tal Brooke. And Nagel used this claim by Tal Brooke in 1994 university press De Sai Paradox.


 * Regarding Tal Brooke's third-hand account of "Patrick" in his book, it is amusing to note that Lawrence A. Bapp said of it, "The animus of Brooke's book (1979) is too strong for one to have much confidence in its accuracy." A interesting opinion from a scholar. SSS108 talk-email 01:16, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that the subject of SSB's genitals cannot be precisely sourced to Brooke since he cannot provide verification for his claims. Ekantik talk 06:42, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * 2) Several of Piet Vroon's articles (columns) in de Volkskrant (described by Nagel's 1994 article)
 * I know from looking at the documentation that there is a high incidence of mental illness, particularly schizophrenia and admitted alcohol/drug abuse within the group of ex-followers. I do believe Piet Vroon is/was an atheist. I think he is the author who was found dead from a possible overdose. I went back to see if I could find anything on his death and I found a biographical article which states that Vroon was a psychiatric patient at the end of his life. If Vroon is a considered a reliable source when he is reporting supernaturally morphing genitalia phenomena, then maybe David Icke and his alien shape-shifting reptiles should be considered a reliable source too! The issue I guess is, if a supposedly reliable source really messes up should they still get a pass on bad reporting? I could detail the way in which each media outlet has really messed up on the Sai Baba issue by either not reporting the facts correctly or leaving out certain info which misleads the audience. Freelanceresearch 10:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * 3. The book Liefde's Logica by Helena Klitsie.
 * If you look at the sources like Nagel or Helena Klitsie they are all giving the story related by a third unknown person, they never said they experienced it directly. Wikisunn 10th February 2007


 * The Claim has been opposed strongly by all the editors, sources have been questioned for reliability. Inspite of all this opposition if you still add this ridiculous claim to the article and disrupt it, then I have no other option other than to revert your changes and to complain about your POV pushing as this claim is bizarre / ridiculous and sources are not reliable.
 * Wikisunn 17th February 2007


 * Editor opinions are OR unless sourced. Assuming that Andries has contradicted himself, this is still completely unimportant. Wikipedia is all about sources.


 * Vroon was NOT an ex-follower of SSB.


 * Like many others, Vroon was not himself when his death was imminent. Suggesting that this invalidates his writings is the epitomy of misunderstanding WP:V. Vroon at the time was published in reliable sources such as the Volkskrant and other independent publishers. AvB &divide; talk  01:36, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * We have been trying to explain all of this to Wikisunn repeatedly but he still does not understand WP:RS or WP:BLP. I'd just like to clarify my comment as quoted by Wikisunn as an example of opposing the insertion into the article; I do not oppose the insertion of the claim into the article, I just said that I do not care if it is inserted or if it isn't. What matters is that the claim is reliably sourced, that's all. According to the discussion above (and all the other histories of it), the claim does turn out to be reliably sourced and is thus fit for inclusion into the article. Ekantik talk 02:34, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikisunn's verbose comments cannot obfuscate the core issue i.e. that the gender change has been extensively discussed in reliable sources and as such belong in the article. Again, I want to emphasize that the gender change was extensively discussed in a university press peer reviewed article about SSB. (Nagel 1994 De Sai Paradox) I also protest against Wikisunn's ad hominem comments against former followers (that he copied from Freelanceresearch).  23:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Andries, the sources you want to use are not reliable and they have been strongly opposed by the other editors. Nagel herself called the claim "Bizarre" and she has used Tal Brooke story as her reference in De Sai Paradox. As Thatcher pointed out earlier, gender changing has never been part of the official SSB story, one or two individuals' personal experiences about gender changing do not make for a reliable story.  As sss108 pointed out  Lawrence A. Bapp said of it, "The animus of Brooke's book (1979) is too strong for one to have much confidence in its accuracy." You agreed in your statement that even Nagel Criticized some aspects of) Tal Brooke's writings. Considering all thes facts the gender change claim cannot be added as the sources are not reliable and the claim lacks sound editorial judgement and common sense. Wikisunn 20th February 2007

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wikisunn (talk • contribs) 22:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC).
 * How is a peer reviewed university press article not reliable? So what if the gender change is not part of the official SSB story? Wikipedia biographies are not intended to be authorized biographies. Andries 09:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Girija Prasad Koirala
Girija Prasad Koirala is a devotee of Sathya Sai Baba: See Ref SSS108 talk-email 01:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately I find it appalling that you continue to add names without responding to the points I made above. Do you think the inclusion of a long list of names harms or helps the article? Don't you think such information would be better off placed somewhere appropriate within the article instead of cluttering up the page which has two types of infobox templates? Ekantik talk 02:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * THIS PAGE SHOULD BE ARCHIVED!!!! Smith Jones 05:13, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

number of adherents
An uncommented "6 to 100 million" is just not useful. It appears that neutral estimates range around 10 million, sceptics go as low as 6 M and adherents as high as "50 to 100 M". The article text should reflect this. dab (𒁳) 09:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The BBC documentary reported 30 million. Ekantik talk 18:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

In the news again
I notice that SSB is in the news again, after various sections of the Indian population have taken objection to his remarks about the futility of creating a separate Telangana state. Reliable sources galore, this should be added into the article in which section? I was also thinking if there is call for a separate sub-section on SSB's political connections, of which much has been written about in reliable sources? Maybe even a separate article? Comments please? Ekantik talk 03:14, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Much? Swami is mostly apolitical Krystian 14:16, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The BBC fim documented his relationships with Indian Presidents and Prime Ministers past and present, what to speak of ordinary govt. ministers and other politicians who regularly visit him to seek his advice on political matters. There is a heavy show of politicians on show on major occasions such as SSB's birthday, and the current President (Abdul Kalam) turned up to celebrate SSB's 81st birthday in Nov 2006. Only very recently it was in the news that he visited Chennai to offer assistance in some water project or other, and met several govt. ministers there. SSB has also publicly praised some politicians and PMs in his discourses, and publicly supported them during a crisis in their tenures. In the light of this and many more easily verifiable facts, it is impossible to say that SSB is 'apolitical'. Ekantik talk 16:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Anyhow I think this recent information is notable enough to go in the article. Ekantik talk 16:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The news that Sathya Sai Baba made a comment about Telangana is true.


 * When did he make this statement?
 * Sathya Sai Baba was given a big felicitation in Chennai Nehru stadium organised by the Chennai Citizens Conclave for thanking him for the 200 crore water project which brought water from the River Krishna in Andhra Pradesh to Chennai city. Four chief ministers attended the function. The big news about this event was that Sai Baba was sharing the same dias with Karunanidhi(CM of Chennai) who is a very well known hardcore atheist against Hindu gurus / godman and that Karunanidhi was felicitating Sai Baba. This was covered in all newspapers. http://www.indianexpress.com/story/21444.html
 * http://www.indiaenews.com/politics/20070121/36546.htm
 * http://www.hindu.com/2007/01/18/stories/2007011817000600.htm
 * http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/jan212007/national048342007121.asp
 * http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/7598_1908976,000500020008.htm.


 * During his speech Sai Baba made the following remark about Telangana "it is a sin to cut up the country or states into pieces (because) it is not good for the country or for the people”.


 * 'What is not true': The statement by Ekantik that "after various sections of the Indian population have taken objection to his remarks about the futility of creating a separate Telangana state." is not true.


 * Only the activist of the The Telangan Rashtra Samiti (TRS) revolted against this and went on a rampage but there was also counter protest by shops and business establishments in puttaparthi to condemn the remarks of Telangana leaders against Sai Baba. There was also another view from the Andhra Pradesh Congress Committee they termed it as scores of 'misinterpretations' attributed to the comments of Satya Sai Baba. "All that Baba wanted to emphasis was unity and human oneness. But reference to Telangana in his speech was unfortunately misread," http://www.ibnlive.com/news/sai-baba-lands-in-a-telangana-row/top/31880-3.html


 * Is Sai Baba political? Is he political just because politicians visits his ashram like the other 3000 people(average) who visits his ashram dialy. Is he political because politicians attend Sathya Sai Baba college graduation ceremonies or annual sports meet or other functions?


 * Its always a common practice in Indian schools / other colleges to invite chief guest for independence day or for graduation ceremonies or other functions. Many schools / colleges invites government officials to speak to their students during such occasions and present awards to students. So what's wrong if the President is invited to preside over the Sathya Sai college graduation ceremony or annual sports meet or any other ceremony and is requested to speak to the students or the people gathered there?


 * Sathya sai Baba's ashram is open to anybody and everybody. So who ever wants, can go and visit him but nobody is send an invitation to visit his ashram. Every day on an average 3000 visitors visit Baba's ashram. Even politicians visit his ashram. What's is the problem if the politicians wants to visit him like anybody else. Do you think that they must not be allowed or banned into the ashram because they are politicians?


 * What is not true about Ekantik's statement "Politicians who regularly visit him to seek his advice on political matters". Sathya Sai Baba generally keeps himself away from politics. In fact in karunanidhi(CM of Chennai) interview to Sun TV after Sai Baba's visit when anchors questioned him what did Sai Baba and Karunanidhi(atheist) talked about? He said, I did not talk about religion and Sai Baba did not talk about politics.

Wikisunn 13th February 2007


 * WIKISUNN, it hink that the information you gave canbe aadded to the article without adding a new page about sathaya sai babaa. Smith Jones 21:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikisunn, this is not a discussion about whether politicians seek his advice on political matters. They do, so I'll thank you not to give me long-winded explanations about it. This discussion is about adding the information into the article. I think that point has already been answered. Ekantik talk 04:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Ekantik, Sri Sathya Sai Baba criticised the formingo of Telangana on ethical&religious grounds, not on political grounds. Krystian 22:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Look, let me make it clearer if it wasn't already clear before: This is not a talk-page to be used as a soapbox for advocating a particular point of view, but just a talk-page for discussing improvements and changes into the article. I personally do not care what SSB gets upto just so long as it is reliably sourced when information is included in the article. I personally do not care what SSB meant when he criticised the move to create a new Telangana state and Wikipedia does not care either; the fact is that he made a political statement and a lot of politicians have exploded in response to said statement. I might include this information into the article (as there are no objections), source it reliably etc, just as soon as I figure out the appropriate place to put it. Ekantik talk 02:41, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I've added the info, mainly following the layout of the Wikinews article (link template included within text). If you feel you can contribute by making the text more neutral/NPOV then please do so, or add more sources. I've also just nominated the article for ITN. Ekantik talk 04:25, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I have made the Political Row as a separate Category for more clarity as its content is about the latest political uproar and is different from the rest of the categories. This has enough information to go as a separate category. Also I have added more information which I discussed earlier published from a number of Indian Newspapers.
 * Wikisunn 19th February 2007


 * I initially agreed with the idea of a separate section for political issues but I'm now in two minds about it; a separate section on SSB's political influence may be useful for the article and can be moved higher-up along with the welfare works, etc. However, this particular issue about the Telangana controversy is a controversy and is a sub-section of the Criticism section, and is valid for the same. I also noticed that the information you included was not written in an NPOV style and I will be rewriting this section when I get the time. One of your references (India eNews) is also a violation of WP:RS, it does not appear to be a news site per se, more of a blog site. The Indian Express reference is a better reference but focuses too much on Karunanidhi's attitude to religion, etc. Ekantik talk 00:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Adding this information to the article may be misguided because a form of Recentism. SSB is not notable for his opposition to Telengana except in the last months and this incident will likely be seen as trivial, unimportant, and peripheral to the notability of SSB. Andries 23:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * OK I appreciate that. What are your thoughts on the creation of a separate section for SSB's political influences? Perhaps this can serve as a basis for that? Ekantik talk 00:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Ekantik, give examples of what you want to do before adding it directly to the article. News that Sathya Sai Baba was given a huge felicitation in Chennai by a private organization, thousands of people attended it is true and it was published in all newspapers, and only during that event Baba made the Telangana statement. The Wikipedia:Recentism essay talks about the concerns about  news which changes from time to time like “2004 U.S. election voting controversies “and Wikipedia is an encyclopedia so adding such news will undermine its standards. But this news about felicitation for Sai Baba does not fall under that category. Both the felicitation and telangana comment by Baba happened during the same event. There is nothing wrong in mentioning the event when he made the comment while writing the controversy related to the comment. So writing only half of the information and not covering the other part of the event which was also published in all major newspapers is wrong and incorrect.
 * Wikisunn 20th February 2007

While we're on the subject, Wikisunn, please stop turning sub-sections into separate sections when they are unwarranted. The "Stances" sub-section is connected to sexual abuse and is not notable for a separate section. Ditto for sexual abuse, the issue is different to the 1993 murders. Please read WP:MOS and see how to properly format an article. Although I agree that this article is still messy and far from a MOS standard, that doesn't mean we willy-nilly create chaos by messing up sections and sub-sections. Ekantik talk 01:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Look at other Biographies of living persons in Wikipedia like Prem Rawat or Mahatma Gandhi or anybody else. Every biography has a Category called “Criticism” summarizing the views of Critics and does not have biased subcategories breaking NPOV. This SSB article should follow the same standards. Also the section “Criticism” is already under dispute regarding its neutrality. By adding biased Sub Category titles we are further complicating the problem. Writing Style in Biographies of living people says” Articles Should be written responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone”.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:BLP.


 * Lets also look at the SSB article contents to see if the contents justify such a subsection category. Following are the contents.


 * 1)Alay Rahm Case: This was discussed in the Arb.com extensively. This will be rewritten after arb.com following Fred Bauder comment that “It cannot be included because it is almost impossible to determine if this particular person is being truthful.” Fred Bauder 15:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * 2)Time article about the death of 3 people: This article talks about guilt by association as pointed by Thatcher and does not justify a separate heading Sexual abuse allegation subsection category.


 * 3)Koert van der Velde, a reporter for Dutch newspaper Trouw, claimed in a critical article that Sathya Sai Baba forbade people to look at the internet.[100]. This is again not a sexual abuse allegation.


 * 4)The Guardian further expressed concerns over a contingent of 200 youths travelling to the Baba's ashram. Again this does not say a particular person was sexually abused it only said it expressed concerns. Expressing concerns is not same as an instance / case of Sexual abuse allegation.


 * ii) The same guardian says “Sathya Sai Baba has not been charged over old allegations of sexual abuse”. This statement further contradicts creation of a sub category title and does not justify the sub category title.


 * 5)Even the Unesco Warning again talks about a deep concern and does not confirm any particular sexual abuse allegation.


 * When there is not a single case / instance of Sexual abuse allegation then how does it justify to create biased sub category section especially in the biography of a living person? Look at other biographies in wikipedia, their writing styles, and how carefully they select category heading to comply with NPOV. This article has to be written carefully following NPOV and adding a controversial biased Sub Section heading when not required only augments the problem instead of creating better solution to the article. Please don't add biased Sub categories when not required.
 * Wikisunn 20th February 2007


 * Wikisunn, I've told you before and I'll tell you again: You have demonstrated on repeated occasions that you do not understand the fundamentals of WP policies (example). You also continue to use this page as a soapbox for advocacy. I am not going to bother responding to your points (as they should be addressed separately, so go ahead and make a new section for that). This point about sub-categories being biased is your opinion, it is perfectly valid when a Critical section is describing different types of criticism. As you can see, Criticism of SSB is mainly under three categories: the 1993 murders, sexual abuse controversy,and now the political row (which could become a basis for a new section entirely). This is not a BLP issue, but an issue with WP:MOS.
 * The example you quoted about Prem Rawat completely undercuts your view. There is one sub-category for criticism and four sub-sub-categories to deal with four different types of criticism. Criticism of Mahatma Gandhi was mainly political so there is no need for sub-categories there.
 * And finally, the sub-categories have been there for a long time in this article and nobody has objected to them except you. Every editor who possesses a basic comprehension of WP:MOS can understand that different sub-categories are needed to deal with three different types of criticism. Your edits want to teat the sex abuse controversy as an accompaniment to the 1993 murders, and you want to put the 'Stances' section as an independent section, which makes the article incomprehensible! The other thing is that since you continue to display a non-comprehension of WP policies on this matter, it becomes very hard to accept that your edits are made in good faith especially when you continue to introduce stylistic errors into the article. Ekantik talk 00:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * And by the way, there is no need to keep re-inserting the information about "receiving a big felicitation" for the water project. If you had reviewed the edit history, you'll see that I moved your text into the appropriate section about SSB's projects. I'd highly appreciate it if you could review the edit history to see what you are doing, what to speak of providing unreliable sources for your remarks. Ekantik talk 00:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Did I also mention that the way you made your edit broke NPOV? "In January 2007, Baba was given a big felicitation" is not neutral language is it? I mentioned earlier that I was going to NPOV-ise this as well as provide more reliable references. India eNews is not a reliable source. I'd highly appreciate it if you addressed the comments made to you on this talk-page instead of discussing other peripheral issues. Ekantik talk 00:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Ekantik, Yes, it’s a problem of WP:MOS. You are adding wrong sub categories. Criticism should only summarise the view of critics that’s what the name implies. Why do you want to add “Stances of Devotees and Proponents “ under Criticism section? Are they views of Critics? The “Stances” should be a separate section as they are response to Criticism by Followers. Also you are unnecessarily trying to add a subcategory “Sexual abuse allegation” under the heading Criticism when there is not a single instance / proof of sexual abuse allegation in the contents. If you add NPOV sub category heading under Criticism such as “Criticism by Ex-Followers” rather than “Sexual abuse Allegation” I am ok with that. Your emphasis on adding this subcategory “Sexual abuse allegation” when there is not a single instance of sexual abuse allegation only shows your negative bias in editing Sathya Sai Baba article.

Regarding the Political Row: Why is that a grand function given to Sai Baba attended by Political parties is placed under “Organisation Section” rather than in the Political Row section? This should be under the political section as it involves the political parties and felicitation attended by Government heads. You said I am not being NPOV because I described the event as a big felicitation to Sai Baba. How do you describe a grand function in a huge public arena attended by several hundreds of people and also by four chief ministers of four different state arranged on a mega scale and covered in all Newspapers and telecasted in all channels?

Regarding the Wikipedia:Recentism. Telangana controversy is a perfect example of Recentism. There was a protest by Telangana activities following Baba’s comments then there were also a counter protest. Now everything has calmed down and nobody is reported any more disputes related to Baba’s comment. Inspite of this being an perfect example of Recentism you have added a detailed description about this in the article but will not accept if other editors add felicitations / recognition given to Sai Baba on a grand scale in a big public meeting attended by Government heads and published in all major newspapers.

These edits are further proofs of your open negative bias to the Sathya Sai Baba article. Wikisunn 21st February 2007
 * Wikisunn's, I think that criticism and rebuttals to criticisms belong together. We could rename the section to make this clear to the reader e.g "Criticisms and replies", but criticisms and rebuttals treat the same subjects and should hence not be seperated. Andries 23:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Andries, I agree with your suggestion that we can rename the section 'Criticism' to 'Criticism and Replies' or 'Criticism and Responses' and then the 'Stances' can be a subcategory renamed to "Responses to Criticism'. However I don't agree with the Political Row as its contents are the recent political developments related to SaiBaba and different from the rest of the article and hence must be a separate category and should include the grand felicitation attended by political party and also describe the Telangana dispute.

Wikisunn 22nd February 2007


 * Wikisunn, your comments are, broadly speaking, personal attacks (wherever you mention my "motivations" and suchlike) and are inappropriate for article talk-pages. If you have a problem with anything I do or say then I actively encourage you to discuss the matter on my talk-page so as to avoid cluttering up article-talkpages. So I'm just going to give a short reply to each of your points mainly because I've already provided full rationales:
 * It does not matter whether there is "proof" of sexual abuse, that is why the section is called "allegations". Anybody would agree that allegations are what is being described. Furthermore, it has remained a sub-section for a long time before you got here; You are the only one making changes and other editors oppose your edits as they make the section confusing and unreadable. Hence, you do not have consensus for making a change that no one supports. The "Stances" section describes the response of devotees/proponents to the allegations of sexual abuse and should be aligned properly to aid readability. Splitting it into a separate section is bad copyediting.
 * The "grand function" was chiefly to celebrate SSB's participation in the Chennai water project and thus should be placed in a section describing his welfare works. The 'Political row' section is under Criticism so why do you want to "criticise" SSB's contributions? Honestly, you are just not making any sense at all and I am surprised that I have to explain the obvious. The language you used was POV, it should be "neutralised"; you could have said: "The Baba was commended for another water project in Chennai" or something similar. What you don't seem to understand is that Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia.
 * Feel free to add information about SSB's welfare works, I don't have a problem as long as it is sourced reliably and is notable enough for an encyclopedic entry. As for recentism, if you take the time to read WP:RECENT, you'll see the section highlighted in bold: "..allegations of recentism should be considered a symptom of the editorial process and an argument for further improvement and refinement of thought through discussion of where the content may belong." It has already been discussed below that this section could be the basis for a new section to discuss SSB's political connections, but this has escaped your attention. Bear in mind that WP:RECENT is neither a policy nor a guideline so, AFAIK, we are not obliged to follow it.
 * I'm afraid that all this just shows your continuing misunderstanding of foundational WP policies that taint every argument you present, even though you have been told umpteen times to edify yourself about the concerned policies. I'm afraid that if you don't appear to show any understanding of WP policies in this matter, I am not obliged to respond to your points if I don't feel your actions will improve given the number of times I've already explained the issues patiently to you. I'd also highly appreciate if you refrained from making personal attacks in the future. Ekantik talk 00:51, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Ekantik, We are not going to agree on this issue. I don't agree to your statement that there should be a sub category "Sexual abuse allegation" just because "it has remained a sub-section for a long time" although there is not a single instance of sexual abuse allegation in the contents. I think adding a biased subsection is against NPOV and as we must strictly adhere to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Biased_or_malicious_content.


 * Anyway as per Andries suggestion I am going to change the section heading Criticism to 'Criticism and Responses'. I am going to request for comment from all editors regarding this and political row issue. We can decide based on consensus from other editors.
 * Wikisunn 22nd February 2007

Organizations section
The organizations section is better suited in the article Sathya Sai Baba movement so I copied almost all of it there.(Though some sources used strike me as doubtful) We could leave a summary or short list of the organizations sections here. I will give an exampe of what I want at Sathya Sai Baba/Cleanup later. Andries 22:13, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Andries, Why is that the Sathya Sai Baba/Cleanup uses a very old version and does not reflect the current version of the Sathya Sai Baba article?

Wikisunn 13th February 2007


 * I agree with this as it is far too long. Thatcher enunciated a good view above about how this article should mainly be a "biographical article", so I think its fair to split organisational information into separate articles with brief summaries on this one. Ekantik talk 04:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Re-added important information
I noticed that some important information was missing e.g. SSB's claim to be a reincarnation of Shirdi Sai Baba. This must have been removed when somebody thought that the lead section was too long. There may be more. Please help to check and re-insert. Andries 22:20, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Fair enough for the lead, but I think more detail on this could go into the History section. What I'm struglling with is the scorpion incident; "no one cares if you were bitten by a dog when you were five", but because this scorpion incident is referenced so much and marked a notable change in his career that I think it should be formatted properly. Of course, the Shirdi stuff will come after that. Ekantik talk 04:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The lead section should be expanded a bit as advised in WikiProject_Biography/Peer_review/Sathya_Sai_Baba Andries 08:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I completely forgot all about that, ha ha. Perhaps the previously-used five-paragraph lead could be used after being trimmed down to four paras or less as per WP:LEAD, assuming that this text is fine. Ekantik talk 03:32, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Here is the lead paragraph before it was drastically cut down. Needs improvement and reduction, certainly:

Sathya Sai Baba (born Sathya Narayana Raju on November 23 1926 &mdash; or later than 1927 &mdash; with the family name of "Ratnakaram" ) is a South Indian guru often described as a Godman and a miracle worker. According to the Sathya Sai Organisation, there are an estimated 1,200 Sathya Sai Baba Centers in 130 countries world-wide. The number of Sathya Sai Baba adherents is estimated between 6 million to 100 million. Several hundred books and media articles have been published about Sathya Sai Baba. His followers and the organizations he founded are involved in many service projects around the world. They provide free education through schools, free healthcare through two state-of-the-art hospitals in Puttaparthi and Bangalore and two water projects serving millions in the Indian states of Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu. Puttaparthi, where Baba was born and still lives, was originally a small village where one can now find an extensive University complex, a World-Religions Museum (Chaitanya Jyoti), a Planetarium, a railway station, an airport and more. High ranking Indian politicians, like the current President Dr. Abdul Kalam, Manmohan Singh (Former finance minister and current Prime Minister), and Atal Vajpayee (Former Prime minister) have been official guests at the ashram in Puttaparthi.

Sathya Narayana Raju was born into a poor agrarian family in the remote village of Puttaparthi located in Anantapur district, Andhra Pradesh. In the 1940s he proclaimed himself to be the reincarnation of Shirdi Sai Baba and subsequently took the fakir's name. Sathya Sai Baba claims that he is the second in a series of three Avatars (incarnations) of Shiva Shakti, the future incarnation being Prema Sai Baba. He claims that he is an embodiment of love with divine attributes such as omnipresence, omniscience and omnipotence. Sathya Sai Baba teaches the unity of all major world religions and says that they all lead to God. He preaches a foundation of five basic human values: Truth, Right Conduct, Peace, Love and Non-Violence.

Sathya Sai Baba's followers report many, sometimes spectacular, miracles of various kinds which they attribute to him. He is observed to allegedly manifest vibuthi (holy ash) and small objects (rings, necklaces and watches) daily. Sathya Sai Baba explained the phenomenon of manifestation as an act of divine creation, but refused to have his materializations investigated under experimental conditions because he felt that the approach used by critics was improper. Critics claim that these materializations are done by sleight of hand.

The most vehement criticisms since the year 2000 are the allegations made by former devotees of inappropriate sexual relations with young men and boys. According to India Today magazine (dated December 2000) no complaints have been filed against the Guru, by any alleged victim, in India. It was also reported, in this same India Today magazine, that the coterie that surrounds Baba dismissed the allegations by denouncing them as "Anti-Hindu" attacks made by foreigners. According to Mick Brown, due to the public disclosure of allegations, there was a rash of defections from Western countries and Sweden. In face of the allegations, the Sathya Sai Central Trust is still the largest recipient of foreign donations (as recently as 2001) and Bill Aitken and Michelle Goldberg both expressed the opinion that the allegations have not seemed to impact the Guru's following. Ekantik talk 02:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Minor correction
Whoever's been inserting that Howard Murphet stuff is actually making the section unreadable by bad grammar, punctuation and all the rest of it. Are there any objections to Murphet's stuff being used? If so then the section should be rewritten accordingly. I tried to cleanup some of the grammar but stuff about Kasturi's four-volume biography imade redundant if we don't find a way of expanding the sentence. It just mentions that he wrote a four-volume biography, so what? And then goes straight onto the virgin birth claim in another of Kasturi's books. By the way I corrected the Virgin Birth error, SSB is believed to have been born of immaculate conception, not virgin birth as his mother was not a virgin at the time of his birth. Ekantik talk 03:32, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The wikilink to immaculate conception seems to concentrate more on the Christian doctrine than on what an immaculate conception actually is, and is therefore troubling for this article. Please replace with more suitable wikilinks if necessary. Possible candidates are Incarnation (Christianity), Virgin Birth and Parthenogenesis. Ekantik talk 03:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that it should be Virgin Birth. I believe that Mick Brown made a mistake in the Daily Telegragh in an otherwise well-researched article Of course, we should report what the sources say, but we can agree not to use a certain source for a certain claim if editors agree that the source is erroneous in that respect. Does somebody have Kasturi's book Easwaramma? I heard/listened to it years ago, because it was read aloud during bhajan service. Andries 22:45, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I have the book and I can type it out somewhere if you wish, but to my recollection I don't think there's any specific place where Kasturi mentions virgin birth. I think the error creeps in because Kasturi spends some time in his introduction comparing SSB's birth to the births of Jesus and Ramakrishna among others (which appear to be virgin births in their own right). I think this is definitely a case of reportage conflicting with real-life observation; whereas it is reported to be a virgin birth, the real-life observation is that SSB had older siblings so his mother couldn't have been a virgin. But I'll be happy to help reach a consensus. Ekantik talk 23:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Ekantik, I think you misunderstand the concept of a Virgin birth. A person born from a Virgin birth can have older brother and sisters. Andries 23:31, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that was my point in the first place; the wikilink is not informative enough to explain what is being referred to. I personally disagree with the idea that a person born of a virgin birth can have older siblings (it contradicts the meaning of virgin) which is why SSB's birth is believed to be an immaculate conception rather than a "virgin" birth. But wikilinking is a different thing, since Parthenogenesis explains what is being said adequately and Virgin Birth focuses too much on the Christian religious doctrine. I suggest that the term be formulated thus: immaculate conception. As in, "In his book about the Baba's mother, Kasturi wrote that Sathya was conceived through immaculate conception." The term "immaculate conception" (or "virgin birth") will be written but the wikilink is to the parthenogenesis article. That seems like a reasonable way to go about things. Ekantik talk 00:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, it is rather difficult. A closer reading of parthenogenesis explains that it is a naturally-occurring phenomenon among plants and some animial species but not mammals. It is a biology-oriented article so unsuitable for a wikilink. I have therefore made a wikilink to Virgin Birth because that's the best we have right now even If I personally disagree with the terminology. Oh well.. Ekantik talk 01:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality check tag
Why is the neutrality check tag on the article? I cannot find an explanation. I will remove the tag if this is not explained. Andries 23:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Vote for removal. Ekantik talk 00:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Why is the following incident included
The following sentence describes an incident that is unimportant and should hence be removed. We only have limited place here.
 * "According to Kasturi, in his 15th year, he was visited by the rani (queen) of Chincholi. Her late husband, the Raja, had been a very ardent devotee of Shirdi Baba."

Andries 00:37, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Vote for removal. Ekantik talk 00:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Vote for keeping. Krystian 15:26, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Vote for keeping. Wikisunn 25th February 2007

This is ridiulous. The sentence is non-encyclopaedic and is going to be removed in a long-overdue massive cleanup and is not subject to a "vote" as such. Otherwise, please explain how this sentence is encyclopaedic and why it deserves to retain a place in the article.

This type of process is ruining the way this article is written. Ekantik talk 03:51, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. Krystian and Wikisunn should at least try to explain why this incicent is important. Andries 06:20, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Interesting summary by Nagel of Babb
From Nagel's article "Sai Baba as Shiva Shakti"
 * Babb, Lawrence A. “Sathya Sai Baba’s Saintly Play”, in Saints and Virtues, John Stratton Hawley (ed.), Berkeley, CA: California University Press, 1987:168-186. The quotation is from p. 173.


 * "Scholar Lawrence Babb thought it a striking feature that in the narrations about Sathya Sai Baba, his life emerges with


 * an almost complete elision of individual personhood. What looks at first like life-history turns out to be something quite different: a suppression of unique life-history, and a removal of the life in question from history. At virtually every turn individuating details are subordinated to one timeless mythic paradigm or another. His birth was not a particular birth but the birth of a deity-infant, as evidenced by the resounding of the tambùrã and the cobra under the bedding. His childhood was not a particular childhood but the childhood of a juvenile god, for which the ruling paradigm in India is the early life of Krishna. With the first of the two great disclosures, the image of the magical child is superseded by another – that of the archetypal holy man, as represented by Sai Baba of Shirdi. In the second disclosure this identity, in turn is encompassed within yet another, which is not only wider, but universal. Now he is revealed to be Shiva and Shakti, who together represent the Absolute."

If someone could get the article by Babb then we can include it. Andries 01:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Disjointed information
The sex abuse controversy is disjointed, with earlier events recorded as happening later, e.g.: the last paragraph is about Glen Meloy, which should be moved up as it occurred in 2000. I attempted to rewrite it before (diff) according to proper chronology and which became the subject of an edit war. If no one objects, I'll rewrite it again according to that diff as it gives a proper chronological perspective on events, what to speak of being well sourced. Ekantik talk 01:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Fine for me. There are several ways of structuring this article (or any article)
 * 1. Strictly chronological
 * 2. Per subject
 * 3. Facts first and only then opinions and allegations
 * 4. Per POV


 * The article now is a mixture of all four. I have always maintained that organizing the article per POV is incorrect, though some paras may be fine if orrganized per section POV, but not whole sections. Thaumaturgic and SSS108 changed the structure to organize it per POV without following concencus and in spite of my protests, though SSS108 later asserted that concencus was necessary for making changes. Andries 01:32, 20 February 2007 (UTC) ammended for grammar 01:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Regarding subcategory title
Ekantik wants to add a subcategory titled “Sexual abuse allegation” under Criticism and Replies section. Please give your comments.

Wikisunn 22st February 2007


 * When there is not a single instance of sexual abuse allegation in the contents, I don’t think it is necessary to add such a biased subcategory titled “Sexual abuse allegation”. The category heading and subheading should follow NPOV as this is a biography of a living person. Let’s look at the content to see if adding such a subsection is justified.


 * 1)Alay Rahm Case: This was discussed in the Arb.com extensively. This will be rewritten after arb.com following Fred Bauder comment that “It cannot be included because it is almost impossible to determine if this particular person is being truthful.” Fred Bauder 15:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * 2) The Time article talks about the death of 3 people: This article talks about guilt by association as pointed by Thatcher. This is a criticism and does not justify a separate heading Sexual abuse allegation subsection category.


 * 3)Koert van der Velde, a reporter for Dutch newspaper Trouw, claimed in a critical article that Sathya Sai Baba forbade people to look at the internet. This is again just a criticism.


 * 4)The Guardian further expressed concerns over a contingent of 200 youths travelling to the Baba's ashram. Again this does not say a particular person was sexually abused it only said it expressed concerns. Expressing concerns is not same as an instance / case of Sexual abuse allegation. Again, this is a criticism.


 * ii) The same guardian says “Sathya Sai Baba has not been charged over old allegations of sexual abuse”. This statement further contradicts creation of a sub category title and does not justify the sub category title.


 * 5)Even the Unesco Warning again talks about a deep concern and does not confirm any particular sexual abuse allegation.


 * In all these contents there is only criticism and there is not a single case / instance / valid proof of Sexual abuse allegation then how does it justify to create biased sub category section especially in the biography of a living person? The Criticism section has already been elected for dispute on neutrality. By adding controversial biased Sub Section heading when not required only augments the problems in this article instead of creating better solution to the article. Wikisunn 22st February 2007

I am strongly against adding such a subheading. Krystian 16:55, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes we know that you two are "strongly" against iou both also happen tot even though it has been like that for months (possibly years) and nobody ever objected to it. You both happen to be strong SSB followers but it might be a good idea to not let this get in the way of constructive editing instead of continuing to use this article as some sort of battleground. Now I don't let whatever biases I may have get in the way of proper copyediting.

Wikisunn, I wish you would get your facts straight: I do not want to "add" a sub-section entitled 'Sexual abuse allegations'; It has been that way since the main editors on this article (Andries and SSS108) were openly disagreeing on a variety of topics but never this one. Maybe it's because some editors are sensible enough to see the and keep the value of WP:MOS and WP:COPYEDIT, listing each particular controversy under an appropriately-titled sub-section. I have already pointed it out before, but Wikisunn's way of doing things not only introduces extremely bad stylistic errors into the article but he is the only editor who thinks it must be his way. Only now is he attempting to seek consensus, and all of his points are flawed and have already been disproved/refuted in above discussions on the matter.

Therefore I strongly oppose Wikisunn's motion and I would like to request him to stop cluttering up this talk-page by copy-pasting the arguments that he has made over and over again. I would also strongly encourage Wikisunn to assist in cleaning up the article (like everyone else is doing) and politely ask him to refrain from continuous bickering over tangential, trivial and non-consequential issues. Ekantik talk 01:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

And just for the record (again repeating things I've said to Wikissun repeatedly) it is not the business of Wikipedia to judge whether SSB is guilty of sexual abuse. It is the business of Wikipedia to report that there have been sexual abuse allegations levelled against him, with proper references and sources. Thus, Wikisunn's continual arguments over there being "no proof" of sexual abuse are useless as far as this topic is concerned. Wikisunn is using this article and talk-page as a soapbox for advocacy. Ekantik talk 01:53, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I strongly resent your comments and your incivility. Stop using words such as “bickering” and threatening to block me in my user page for questioning and editing your wrong WP:MOS. You are pushing your POV. Stop trying to block other users who differ from your views or modify your edits. You stated earlier that “you do not have consensus for making a change that no one supports”. Now when I ask for consensus you don’t accept it and you disrupt it. If you had let people express their comments then you will know who is for it and who is against adding this biased subsection title.You constantly change your statements to favor your arguments.You are the one using Wikipedia as a soap box for advocacy. Your recent edits are proof for it.


 * If you don’t want people to disagree with your views or edit your statements then don’t write in wikipedia. Why is that you always have problems with other editors disagreeing with you. So far I have complained about your behaviour, kkrystian has complained about your behaviour, You also had problems with sss108 and freelanceresearcher. You cannot stand anybody disagreeing with your views. You criticize your coeditors and accuses them.


 * Now you are threatening to block me for differing with your wrong edits and wrong WP:MOS style? Stop acting like admin. This time you have gone too far pushing your POV. Wikisunn 23rd February 2007


 * Wikisunn, I agree with Ekantik in one respect. You simply do not understand or forget that Wikipedia reports what reputable sources have stated and that your opinion regarding the veracity of the statements voiced by reputable sources is irrelevant. Your comments are largely irrelevant, because of your lack of understanding of Wikipedia in this respect and I refuse to read your often very long comments that are for more than 90% irrelevant. Andries 21:05, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Andries, this discussion is about selecting the subcategory title and We are not arguing about any contents or source issues. The Criticism section has already been nominated for dispute on neutrality. Like other biographies of living persons this article should have NPOV Catagory headings and SubCategory headings. Why is it that Sathya Sai Baba article be given a secondary treatment. Does n't any of the NPOV policies apply to this article. What is wrong in selecting a non biased general category heading such as 'Criticism and replies' and subcategory title 'Responses to Criticism'. I don't understand why we are even having so much conflict in selecting a NPOV headings or subcategory heading for this article. This must be the simplest task to do if we want to really improve this article. Wikisunn 23rd February 2007


 * Again we go, round and round in circles. Ekantik talk 02:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Looks like this is now the time for me to withdraw from this particular argument, as Wikisunn's behaviour by partially replicating SSS108's rhetoric is now blatantly hostile and threatening, and does nothing to defuse the tension but only increase it. Therefore I have now wish to escalate an argument that is mainly because Wikisunn is not experienced enough on Wikipedia to be responsible for his editing, and has now engaged in blatantly hostile and threatening behaviour. After I have patiently taken the time to (repeatedly) explain to Wikisunn how and why his editing is irresponsible, I have better things to do (and other articles to work on) than be accused of being a POV-pusher, incivility and making personal attacks. Ridiculous.

I have, of course, updated my ArbCom arguments accordingly and I hope that the case is concluded soon so that we can all get on with our lives. Just for the record, I came across this edit in the archives; it is the first instance of Wikisunn's irresponsible editing which he made without gaining consensus. So instead of misrepresenting the issue and claiming that I am the one who wants to introduce "objectional" subsections, it may do well to take a look at |the evidence. Ekantik talk 02:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Ekantik, this whole issue started with your insistence on adding the Subcategorytitle "Sexual abuse allegation" to the article and there are enough proofs to show what happened. Don't misrepresent the facts. These were your edits:, , . When I edited your wrong WP:MOS and also added a discussion on talkpage you added the 1st warning in my talk page . Then after Andries suggestion I renamed the Section "Criticism" to "Criticism and replies" you added the second warning in my talk page saying I disrupted the article and threatened to block me giving second warning . That's when I decided to complain to Thatcher. This is pushing your POV and misusing wikipedia policies for pushing your POV. Wikisunn 24th February 2007

Of course this is the usual attempt of the anti-Sais to insert their POV into the article. Regardless of the arbcom going on this issue has yet to be dealt with. Ekantik is already showing that he will still attempt to push his POV. It will be the same problem in a new form. Nothing is new. The only thing that will be different is all the voices trying to keep the balance will be booted (for trying to stop Andries from constantly POVing the article) and Ekantik will be free to wreak havoc all on his own. It seems no good deed goes unpunished in Wikiland.  F r e e l a n c e r e s e a r c h  11:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


 * As you are unfamiliar with the history of this article, you didn't know that this is is a non-issue about a convention that has remained in the article for a long time and which is consistent with Wikipedia bio standards, now being challenged (inappropriately) by new editors who are not conversant with either Wikipedia conventions/standards nor of policies. You might also like to think about assuming good faith and refrain from making wild accusations. Ekantik talk 14:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Why are the books by Brian Steel deleted from the bibliography section?
I guess that all regular editors are aware that Steel now refutes his own older books on his homepage, but why is this a reaon to delete them? Andries 20:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think there is any reason to delete them, they were/are good resources. I personally leafed through the compendium in 2000 when I saw it in a bookshop and I thought it was rather good. We can add them back in for that reason as it is a worthwhile source of information. Ekantik talk 14:34, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the reputability of Sacha Kester's article in de Volkskrant
The article by Sacha Kester in de Volkskrant has been criticized for ignorance about India. I deny this. Kester was a correspondent in India for the newspaper and wrote extensively about Basava Premanand in de Volkskrant. Andries 17:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * What's this unknown website? When rest of the article is required to support reliable sources and reliable websites then the same rule also applies to article on Sacha Kester. Wikisunn 1st March 2007
 * This website contains a copy of Kester's article in de Volkskrant on Basava Premanand. Andries 20:48, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think S. Kester source should not be cited or used as reference. Krystian 20:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Why not? Andries 20:48, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Criticism Section Lacking
The criticism section currently seems quite limited, the allegations have so far only been limited to the cult-like appearance of his following. There is no mention of alleged money laundering or the sexual molestation complaints. At the very least criticisms about the money pouring in should be included (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_world/3813469.stm)

Molestation Allegation Sources: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_world/3813469.stm http://www.rickross.com/reference/saibaba/saibaba6.html http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/SaiBabaExposed.html http://www.saibabaexpose.com/gabriel.htm http://www.exbaba.com/ http://skepdic.com/saibaba.html http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/Oily.htm

JayAlto (talk) 11:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

A New Beginning
Now that this article has been through two ArbCom decisions, I believe that it is now the time to say goodbye to the old attitudes of personal attacks, assumption of bad faith and so on. Now is the time to usher in the new era of loving, thoughtful and peaceful collaborations that will help to make this article one of Wikipedia's best. Editors need to work together (regardless of affiliations) and without needless edit-wars according to the ideals of Wikipedia that foster a positive environment for work on an encyclopaedic entry on Sathya Sai Baba, one of India's best-known gurus. So hopefully this goal can be achieved through the necessary eforts and striving for that achievement. Ekantik talk 02:08, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Too bad it came to this. But we ought to be able to balance the differing viewpoints and arrive at an encyclopedic article now.--Dseer 06:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Infobox vs. template
I think the infobox should be removed and we should only keep the template? What do you think about it? Krystian 20:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * In view of benefiting the article layout, I do not think that the template offers any significant benefit other than offering a long list of people who are influenced by or opposed to SSB and a few connected articles, so I would vote to remove it from the article. The infobox contains salient information that ought to be kept as "boom" information about SSB.
 * However, it would be a shame to waste the work that went into the template. So I strongly suggest that the template be converted into a footer-template which can be added to the bottom of the page and all other connected pages. I think this would be a much better way of going about things, and I think this is how it is done on Wikipedia as a whole so it would be good to maintain consistency across the Wikipedian board. Ekantik talk 02:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Rather like Hindu Deities and Texts for example, but needs to be appropriate modified for SSB obviously. Ekantik talk 04:52, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That seems better to me. --Dseer 06:27, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It may need to be coloured orange to be consistent with Hindu-oriented articles. Not necessarily orange, as appropriate templates have their own class program. In the meantime take a look at User:Ekantik/Template_Sandbox (bottom) to see how I'm modifying an appropriate template that is simultaneously relevant to SSB and yet maintaining consistency across Wikipedia. Ekantik talk 19:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * And by the way SSB is a religious leader, not a philosopher, so we may have to think about replacing that infobox with a "Hindu slant" as suggested on that page. Perhaps some co-ordination with members of WP:HINDU would be required. I'll get on it right away. Ekantik talk 19:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, done! Check it out: Sathya Sai Baba Ekantik talk 05:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I like the current infobox, it is an easy reference. Often times one only seeks a quick reference and doesn't want to read a full article. PEACETalkAbout 05:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)Point of order, in the new infobox, one can't tell the current devotees, from the opponents/apostates?!? An oversight perhaps? PEACETalkAbout 05:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes there is nothing wrong with the infobox except that it may need to be converted into the official "religious leaders" box, but that's another matter.
 * Regarding the placement of the followers and opponents together, that is intentional as the heading ("Followers and opponents") is general. It is too much of a hassle to create separate categories for everything inside a template especially when there aren't enough Wikipedia articles to merit it. I may as well create a new section called "Locations" just to put in the two Prashanthi Nilayam and Puttaparthi articles, there's no point in that as it fits well in the "Other" section. It's also good to maintain consistency across Wikipedia, I'm not aware of any other template that has separate categories for opponents and critics of any particular thing. I may be wrong of course so please feel free to point one out of it exists. Ekantik talk 06:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps in the future when there are enough articles to merit separate categories then we can include them of course. But for now it seems fine to go with it as it stands, just to provide an easy reference guide of associated articles for interested readers. Ekantik talk 06:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

As there are no objections, I'll start including the new template at the bottom of connected articles and remove the obsolete one soon. Ekantik talk 02:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Some sources that could be explored
Copied from ArbCom case talk. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * New Religious Movements in Western Europe: An Annotated Bibliography, Elisabeth Arweck, Peter B. Clarke; Greenwood Press, 1997
 * Hinduism in Modern Indonesia: Between Local, National, and Global Interests, Martin Ramstedt; RoutledgeCurzon, 2003
 * Hindu Selves in a Modern World: Guru Faith in the Mata Amritanandamayi Mission, Maya Warrier; RoutledgeCurzon, 2005
 * Many Globalizations: Cultural Diversity in the Contemporary World, Peter L. Berger, Samuel P. Huntington; Oxford University Press, 2003
 * Water, Wood, and Wisdom: Ecological Perspectives from the Hindu Traditions, Journal article by Vasudha Narayanan; Daedalus, Vol. 130, 2001
 * Anomalies of Consciousness: Indian Perspectives and Research, Journal article by K. Ramakrishna Rao; The Journal of Parapsychology, Vol. 58, 1994
 * Odd Gods: New Religions and the Cult Controversy, James R. Lewis; Prometheus Books, 2001
 * Media and the Transformation of Religion in South Asia, Lawrence A. Babb, Susan S. Wadley; University of Pennsylvania Press, 1995
 * South Asian Religions in the Americas: An Annotated Bibliography of Immigrant Religious Traditions, John Y. Fenton; Greenwood Press, 1995
 * Klass, MortonSinging with Sai Baba: The Politics of Revitalization in Trinidad, Westview Press, 1991 ISBN 0813379695
 * The Sathya Sai Baba community in Bradford : its origin and development, religious beliefs and practices, Dept. of Theology and Religious Studies, University of Leeds, 1988.
 * McKean, Lise,  Divine enterprise : Gurus and the Hindu Nationalist Movement ISBN 0226560090 and ISBN 0226560104
 * Steel, Brian, 3 Annotated Bibliographies on Sathya Sai Baba (Academic, Critical, Apologetic), on http//bdsteel.tripod.com/More/ [These extensive Bibliographies deal with 8 of the items on this list and many others not consulted or acknowledged by contributors to this article.]  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spirosp (talk • contribs) 05:37, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * White, Charles, SJ, The Sai Baba Movement: Approaches to the Study of India Saints, The Journal of Asian Studies, 1972, Vol. 31, No. 4 (Aug., 1972), pp. 863-878
 * Bann, LA Babb, Lawrence A, Sathya Sai Baba's Magic, Anthropological Quarterly, 1983, Vol. 56, No. 3 (Jul., 1983), pp. 116-124
 * Hawley, John S. (Ed.), Saints and Virtues, University of California Press (1987), ISBN 0520061632
 * Urban, H. B. Avatar for Our Age: Sathya Sai Baba and the Cultural Contradictions of Late Capitalism, Academic Press, 2003, Vol 33; part 1, pages 73-94
 * Swallow D. A., Ashes and Powers: Myth, Rite and Miracle in an Indian God-Man's Cult, Modern Asian Studies, Vol. 16, No. 1 (1982), pp. 123-158
 * Sangha, Dave & Kumar Sahoo, Ajaya, Social work, spirituality, and diasporic communities : The case of the sathya sai baba movement, Journal of Religion & Spirituality in Social Work, 2005, vol. 24, no4, pp. 75-88, Haworth Press
 * Kent, Alexandra, Creating Divine Unity: Chinese Recruitment in the Sathya Sai Baba Movement of Malaysia, Journal of Contemporary Religion, Volume 15, Number 1 / January 1, 2000
 * Kent, Alexandra, Divinity, Miracles and Charity in the Sathya Sai Baba Movement of Malaysia, Ethons, 2004, Taylor and Francis
 * Spurr, M. J., Visiting cards revisited: An account of some recent first-hand observations of the "miracles" of Sathya Sai Baba, and an Investigation into the role of the miraculous in his theology, Journal of Religion and Psychical Research, 2003, Vol 26; Oart 4, pp.198-216
 * Lee, Raymond, Sai Baba, salvation and syncretism, Contributions to Indian Sociology, Vol. 16, No. 1, 125-140 (1982) SAGE Publications
 * Hummel, Reinhart, Guru, Miracle Worker, Religious Founder: Sathya Sai Baba, Materialdienst der EZW, 47 Jahrgang, 1 February 1984. available online in English
 * Sullivan, Michael, C., In Search of a Perfect World: A Historical Perspective on the Phenomenon of Millennialism And Dissatisfaction With the World As It Is, Authorhouse (2005), ISBN 978-1420841619
 * Hansen, George P. The Trickster and the Paranormal, Xlibris Corporation (2001), ISBN 1401000827
 * Bowker, John, The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions; 1997; (Contains an entry on Sai Baba)
 * Stallings, Stephanie,  Avatar of Stability, Harvard International Review, June 22, 2000
 * That is probably good material for the sathya sai Baba movement. The long list of scholarly sources cannot change the fact that no single reputable biographical source exists. Not even a newspaper article that presents a factual overview of his life that is not based on Kasturi's hagiographical writings. Andries (talk) 02:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Andries (talk) 12:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Bowen lists some events from his life chronologically that I will copy soon. Andries (talk) 12:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * None of the accounts of his life from these tertiary books cite any evidential sources. They are all based on unverifiable sources which can easily be wiped out of Wikipedia. Please cite books, sources that base their accounts on evidence which can be traced and be proven as valid and not opinionated. --78.86.159.199 (talk) 03:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Bookstore link
I went to the trouble of joining the Meta-Wiki to get the bookstore link blacklisted, it has been. Let's hope that this is the end of the continual spamming. Ekantik talk 02:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Abdul Kalam?
Abdul Kalam, a Sathya Sai Baba follower? Really? Can anybody cite a source where he admits this?


 * Good point. It is said frequently that Kalam is SSB-follower. I have also heard that he used to teach in SSB's colleges in the 1970s, but it depends on reliable sources for citation. Ekantik talk 04:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Neither Professor Haraldsson nor Arnold Schulman (the latter possibly deceased) are (or were) followers of SSB. Read their books. Devotees often make claims like this. Brian 19 June 2007


 * Don't listen to this Brian; he is Brian Steel - an online public critic and defamer of Sathya Sai Baba!! Of course Kalam, Schulman, Haraldsson ets. are followers of SSB. Kkrystian 15:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am the messenger but please pay attention to the message. And check this by doing the necessary reading. You will find that in their books on SSB, neither Schulman nor Professor Haraldsson claim devoteeship. In the separate case of President Kalam, since he is a very high profile Indian Muslim, it is doubtful that he has made a committed statement of being the devotee of a Hindu guru who claims to be God. As to the strong accusation of defamer, in the absence of any shred of evidence, it should surely be instantly dismissed by less emotional readers.

In connection with such subjective Wikipedia postings as the one referred to, it appears obvious that, on topics which are controversial, if writers were obliged to sign statements with their real names, such Wikipedia entries would be much improved and a lot of time would be saved by not having to refute or revert empty or provocative charges or other  dubious statements made by people sheltering comfortably behind the anonymity of a pseudonym. Brian Steel, 3 August 2007

Is Former president Kalam Follower of SSB?? This is really a doubt as no references have been provided to justify it.Also i would like to point that the names viz President Kalam, Michael Nobel mentioned in the article has ppl present for the Function. Thís need not make them followers of SSB. Hence, the tone of that subsection aslo needs to be modified is its quite misleading. Or correct refrences must be provided. (Asro 11:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC))

Actually I don't think he really believes. He does appear in many Sai gatherings and did fall at his feet. But in terms of actual praying to him outside, I don't think he does. He's doing it more to appease the Indian masses that believe in him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JayAlto (talk • contribs) 11:13, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

saint

 * Well yes, but it is original research and personal opinion to make a statement about SSB's alleged sainthood. He is widely regarded as a saint and reported to be such in numerous reliable sources. I think a disputation of this status as relating to this article's categorisation is a bit much, this article ought to be categorised properly. If reliable sources report SSB as a Hindu saint, he is a Hindu saint. Ekantik talk 00:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * By the way, can Krishna be called a Hindu saint? Krystian 18:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I suppose it depends if you can find a reliable reference/source that refers to Krishna as a saint, although I wouldn't think so because AFAIK even neutral sources describe Krishna as God or an incarnation of some sort. Ekantik talk 18:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I am telling you people, this man is the hindu Benny Hinn —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.4.65.17 (talk) 06:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

questions
Gravely concerning questions about the guru being involved in pedophilia raised by a family of followers from Little Rock. Arkansas were aired in a BBC documentary a couple of years ago. Any comments? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.101.244.9 (talk) 12:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC).

The longstanding farce of the Wikipedia Sathya Sai Baba article continues to damage Wikipedia's increasingly precarious reputation on controversial topics, especially in the face of the recent inauguration of Citizendium. '''Brian Steel, please get a reality check on yourself. If you do not believe something fine, dont do so but stop making such nefarious claims about somebody who is revered by millions. You did not build a hospital which treats millions free of cost, you did not build places of education which educates many young people, you did not provide drinking water to millions, he did. I presume that you would have gotten the message by now. So please utilise your energies elsewhere wherein you could be more useful to mankind. - Rags''' Can someone responsible - if any such Wikipedial entities are overseeing these comedic entries - please check why, under the new editorial management (the poacher becomes the gamekeeper!), my 2 hagiographical books on Sathya Sai Baba - while I was devotee - are cited not once but TWICE in the References and my 5 years of serious and unchallenged critical writings as an ex-devotee are dismissed as "research"? Brian Steel 22 April 2007.

Just because you believe in him doesn't mean that history should be whitewashed. Allegations of phedophillia have been made. This isn't just one or two cases, we're talking countless cases made from both foreigners and locals (although anyone who's ever lived in India would know that the police aren't exactly the first people to call in these type of situations). I digress, I think that the current article is sorely trying to disguise the criticisms - it's far too small and it's proceeded with a long-winded reactions section which is completely unnecessary. We could add a prefix paragraph called "Reactions to Reactions" and debate this out on the wiki page (which is what is currently happening). Most of the claims about his powers are also without citations or sources - aptly so because the only sources you could use would be either videos or testomonials of those who were there (again which leads to 'faith based citations' which are neither scholarly nor credible).JayAlto (talk) 11:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * "Thousands of cases been made". Very funny, very funny. NOT ONE CASE has been filed against Sathya Sai Baba. Kkrystian (talk) 11:28, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, Jay. But I do think that the whole article needs work, not just the criticism section. However, I do agree and I'm going to go ahead and make the 'responses' a sub-section. This is what should have happened ages ago, but opposing editors were insisting on it being a separate section and nothing could be done because this article was under an ArbCom at the time. But now it is OK and I will make it a sub-section. Now that it is the Xmas break I have some more time on my hands so perhaps I will have some time to cleanup this article as I'v been promising.
 * I especially welcome your comment about miracles being unsourced, we need to find sourced citations and remove the unreliable references. Ekantik talk 18:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Salon.com
Hi,

I saw the magazine Salon.com mentioned in the 'Criticism and replies' section, and just wanted to establish basically what it is. I got the info from the Wikipedia entry for Salon.com, and of course readers can just click on the link right before the comment in parentheses for more in-depth info.

Ani 00:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Michael Nobel
Hi, I believe Michael Nobel is the great grand nephew of Alfred Nobel and not his son. Citation: http://www.vsi.net/bio_nobel.aspx Gvinayak 16:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

That is one little step closer to the truth. Moreover, Dr Nobel is not a philanthropic "patron" of SSB but a high-ranking member of the management team of WorldSpace: "Michael Nobel has served as a director of WorldSpace and its predecessors since 2001." (http://investor.worldspace.com) Brian 3 August 2007

Criticism section?
What happen to the criticism section? It evaporated? I do not mind of the criticism is incorporated throughout the article, but deleting all the material is no proper. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I have restored it. Please incorporate in the main text and NPOV as needed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Jossi, Thank you for noticing that. I was just starting to do my research and wanted to bring this very subject up. So, I thank you for your efforts and fully agree with you here. I have learned that UNESCO pulled its support and once I have the citations I will incorporate that into the article so it will have a more balanced point of view. Yes, I agree with your that it is not proper to delete all the criticism considering that one report states that the US travel advisory is specifically due to Sai Baba, although not stated on the travel advisory. PEACETalkAbout 01:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Talking of UNESCO, here: [removing negative external link per ArbCom] are the true reasons why it withdrew. Kkrystian 07:52, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[Stupid comment removed] by: Kkrystian 08:52, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * These type of comments are not useful. I will add some pointers to your talk page so you can be informed about how this project works. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Name Usage
In the whole article, there a instances where the the name Sai Baba is used instead of Sathya Sai baba. Personally, reading through it feels like reading about Sai Baba(Shirdi), which is misleading and does not do good this article. hence its my request to plzz edit the name to Sathya Sai baba and avoid confusion of readers.

(Asro 12:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC))


 * I found some instances of this as well, but I wasn't sure if it was overkill to change all instances of "Sai Baba" into "Sathya Sai Baba" given that the article is about this particular baba. Is it clear from context?

Deletion?
I have reverted a deletion which was not explained.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion to remove all sexual allegation references.
The sexual allegations have no basis in truth. I am not a Sai devotee (I'm not even Hindu) but enough research online shows that some spiteful people just have some resentment that they show by making up allegations. Lawsuits have failed because of the lack of evidence on this subject. Just because he has technically been criticized, it is misleading to quote the allegations as a possibility. By putting it in the criticism section (even with the responses section), it says that the reader is allowed to make up their own mind. The courts have made up their mind and decided the allegations had no basis in truth. Why slander a guy with fake allegations? My proof is coming from [negative external link removed per ArbCom] as well as other google searches. I'm not completely familiar with all the WP:RULES but I feel like there are rules against putting information just because it's true - i.e. "According to the BBC reporter Tanya Datta, a lot of sexual abuse victims have undergone a genital oiling by Sathya Sai Baba that they believe is part of Hinduism." Just because it's true that Tanya Datta said that, it doesn't mean the information should be up there. It's misleading and seems to be put there intentionally to make people think it must be true because the BBC said it. That would be like quoting Jayson Blair's NYT articles.

Therefore, I suggest we remove all references to it, both in criticism and response section.

Agree 75.100.89.19 (talk) 07:42, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree Kkrystian (talk) 15:13, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Disagree. You violate your own purpose by stating at the outset "...no basis in truth", which shows that you have a fundamental disconnect with our Wiki-purpose.  We report the sources, we combine and show the situation as reporters.  *Truth* is not relevant to what we do.  Perhaps you could start again and rephrase your suggestion in terms of source-reporting. Wjhonson (talk) 19:23, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Please remove. No Wjohonson, I think more people here agree with 75.100.89.19, there is no truth, no evidence and mere propaganda and defamation to include false claims in an encyclopedia. Please read Wikipedia guidelines. Unless he was convicted, Wikipedia does not allow speculative information. Someone please remove. --78.86.159.199 (talk) 01:19, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Inappropriate links
Continuing to re-add inappropriate external links (without properly explaining why they should be included in the first place) is a possible violation of WP:EL. Links that are non-English, picture sites that don't offer anything useful to the article, and personal websites are frowned upon by Wikipedia policy. Also, saisathyasai.com is a heavily critical and partisan site that is explicitly mentioned in the ArbCom resolution as inappropriate, and was discussed among all editors and agreed not to be included. Why is this being re-included?

I have brought this up on Kkrystian's talk-page as well. We could be dealing with a possible ArbCom violation here, aside from the "small" issue of edit-warring: 1, 2. Since these types of links are explicitly mentioned as violations of WP:EL, I have decided to remove them again while bringing this up on the talk-page for further discussion. Then we can decide where to go. - Ekantik talk 20:34, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Kkrystian has reverted yet again, but decided to keep the link to saisathyasai.com. As mentioned previously, this website is highly critical and partisan and contains original research (thus violation of WP:EL and WP:OR). This issue was the subject of two ArbCom proceedings, and it was ultimately agreed among all main editors that this link was not to be included. Why is this being re-added in violation of ArbCom decisions?


 * Kkrystian is also refusing to discuss the matter as brought up on his talk-page. Ekantik talk 21:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and remove the external link to saisathyasai.com because, apart from violating the ArbCom decision, it is also a heavily partisan and critical site that contains much original research, and is thus a violation of WP:EL. Ekantik talk 01:51, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * THis website is perfectly OK. Please quote a particular part of the ArbCom rulings that it violates before removing it. Kkrystian (talk) 14:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I too would like to see more substantial arguments. Thanks. Avb 15:02, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * PS Note that I have followed three related ArbCom cases (whose outcomes I've just reread) and know this is not straightforward. To me the main question is whether or not the site qualifies as a WP:SPS and whether or not it itself quotes reliable sources on any contentious issues. In addition, the existence, aims, etc. of the site might warrant mention in the article depending on coverage about the site in reliable sources and assessment per WP:WEIGHT. It would, for example, be interesting to know if Sathya Sai Baba has an opinion on the site. Insofar as the site publishes biographical material, its inclusion is also governed by WP:BLP. Avb 15:44, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello Avb. Perhaps it may be a good idea to skim through some of the talk-page archives to see previous discussions on this issue. I don't know how many more substantial arguments I can bring: This site has been a cause of problems for this article for as long as I can remember. The most important thing is that it offers next to nothing in the way of "defending" SSB but a significant part of it is libellous and defamatory towards other people. It does not quote reliable sources and itself is a construction of original research. it has also not been reported in third-party sources. It is a personal website of an individual (who actually was an editor here before he got banned indefinitely) that represents a one-man campaign to defend SSB from accusations of impropriety.
 * Also, as Kkrystian admits below, it is a "pro" site = partisanship. It violates WP:EL and adds nothing to the article, which is long overdue for a major revamp. - Ekantik talk 05:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for filling in some finer points I might have missed. I've had this article on my watchlist for quite some time so know the broader lines of its history as well as the details of the latest (hopefully last) ArbCom case connected with it. FWIW, I tried to give some general pointers here, because the discussion on te admissibility of the link, in addition to interpreting ArbCom rulings, seemed to center more on disputes between editors based on real-life issues than on the source and policy based approach we have to prevent such animosity. I hope that you and Kkrystian will be able to agree on the correct course to follow. As you've commented below, that includes leaving out guesses regarding other editors' thoughts/feelings/reasons/motivation/etc. As to WP:EL, a partisan site can be used if we make clear to the reader how partisan it is (provided it meets the other WP requirements). Avb 13:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah I see, I thought I've seen you somewhere around in the past but I wasn't sure. Have we discussed before? Anyhow, I haven't really got a problem with other editors and am more interested in constructing a good article. It is unfortunate that other editors seem interested in attacking me, which I have duly reported. I have been away for some months due to real-life pressures but hopefully I will be here regularly to make good on my promises to improve the article.


 * As for the link, I did not know that partisan sites were allowed under certain cirucmstances. I only fear that other editors will step in and demand to link to partisan sites that expound the opposite view (that SSB is guilty as charged) which will lead to all sorts of problems again. As I said, I'm not interested much in these tit-for-tat issues because I firmly believe that Wikipedia is not a battleground, but I genuinely think that this problem can be avoided by not including such links at all given that they have caused so much disruption in the past. That includes any link that expounds a particular agenda from any side. I think the main issue is to rewrite the article to make it much neater and clearer to read, as well as making sure that statements are well-sourced. For example, you can take a look at what I've done with Puttaparthi, which was screaming with fancruft and has been brought down to a more acceptable encyclopaedic level.


 * Anyway I'm rambling on. I think the veracity of the site can be gleaned by perusing it. It contains next-to-nothing by way of "defending" SSB despite its claims to do so, and has much in the way of defamatory remarks against other living people, some of whom are editors here on Wikipedia. I don't think counter-attacks qualify as "defence", but aside from my statements that it violates several WP policies, I;m still not convinced that it contributes anything of merit to the article. May I ask what you think? Thanks, Ekantik talk 18:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't quite remember if we've interacted before; I think I responded to a request about a source in a language I'm fluent in. Regarding partisan sites: they still need to conform to our policies. What I think: I would be very surprised if sufficient sources are available to make the site satisfy our various policies. But editor opinion is not the way to convince someone who believes the exact opposite. It's better to use policy-based arguments. E.g. ask for additional sources. The site could be interesting to our readers if relevance to the subject's notability is shown. Avb 20:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * By the way I just wanted to add for clarity that my supposed feelings about the site are not a factor in my assertions as to its unreliability and non-inclusion. If the site and its contents were reliable then I would have absolutely no problem regarding its inclusion in the article. Ekantik talk 18:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The link does not in any way violate WP:BLP (it is a pro site). Ekantik hasn't pointed out the true reason for his removal but the true reason is known to me. It is because of this sectioin  of the website that exposes his identity & deception. There is no known opinion of Sathya Sai Baba on the site. Kkrystian (talk) 17:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I do not appreciate personal attacks, Kkrsytian. Comment on content, not on contributors. Ekantik talk 05:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Regarding WP:BLP, the problem is not (or not primarily) that the site makes assertions about Sathya Sai Baba; it does, however, make many assertions about other living people. It is such assertions WP:BLP does not allow if they are not also found in reliable secondary sources. So, in addition to your opinion that the site can be linked, you need to show that the site has used such sources, certainly for the pages only one click away from the linked page. Has it? Avb 22:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * No it hasn't. A quick look at some of the talk-page archives will inform readers as to the nature of the site, and why this was such a problem that eventually led to two ArbCom cases. I can't help thinking that continued inclusion of this site is nothing but provocation and promotion of an agenda, especially as all editors agreed to keep it out at the time of the last ArbCom. This issue is certainly complicated, as any admin who has stepped in this issue will tell you. Ekantik talk 05:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It remains possible (though unlikely; I've taken a good look at the site) that editors will provide sufficient additional sources to include the site one way or another. There is no reason to talk about agendas, obvious as they may seem; all that's required is good sources as indicated above, without which inclusion of the site anywhere on Wikipedia would violate the NPOV, V, NOR and BLP policies. Yes, I've seen others remark on how complicated these issues are but hope they can be unraveled. Avb 13:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * That's exactly the point, Avb, there are no good sources used on the site. The site is itself a massive piece of original research. I'm not sure what you mean by your first sentence, could you please clarify? Thanks, Ekantik talk 18:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Original research is no longer OR as soon as acceptable sources where the assertions can be verified and to whom they can be attributed are provided by WP editors. As such, "there are no sources" is not convincing. What is convincing is the silence when the editor who wants to include the link is asked for such sources. Avb 20:07, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll certainly agree with that. Ekantik talk 23:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This website has lots; of sources. Virtually every statement that is atributed to somebody, or quote is sourced (usually with a link)! You can have a look at the website to see. It is written in a fairly objective way and only uses well-sourced and rational arguments. Kkrystian 15:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately this statement exposes your breathtaking ignorance of WP policies on reliable sources, Kkrystian. It appears that after having been told to edify yourself about this policy and other policies, you have not done so and continue to ignore the exhortations of other editors to do so. For me this discussion is over and the link is inadmissible, especially as you cannot explain the reliability of its sources as well as third-party references. Fini. Ekantik talk 17:38, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Kkrystian, you may want to provide acceptable sources here that support linking to the site. As to having a look, I already have, finding many assertions that are insufficiently sourced per Wikipedia's standards. Example: I saw assertions about other WP editors sourced to Wikipedia, Wikipedia Review and Wikitruth. Since none of these qualify as reliable sources on third parties, I checked the sources provided by Wikitruth on a WP editor I have worked with on occasion and found that they did not support the assertions at all. If this is the type of sourcing you are referring to, it will never wash here on Wikipedia. Please provide V RS sources. Without them, this self-published site will remain unusable on Wikipedia. Avb 17:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I've removed the sentence Ekantik is objecting to. Ekantik, please refactor your statements insofar aimed at the editor. Let's keep this on topic please. Avb 17:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know whether this is appropriate here but for what its worth, I've been briefly reviewing the history of this article since my last major participation on Wikipedia. I was looking for a specific entry of defamation but I noticed some other weird things along the way. It seems that Kkrystian re-added this site (after all heavily-contributing editors agreed to keep it out after the 2nd ArbCom) on 30th April 2007. It was then removed by Administrator JzG here on 6 May 07 with the edit summary: "Per arbcom ruling. This site contains poorly sourced and incorrect personal allegations about living individuals." The site was re-added again by Kkrystian on 20th June 2007, and again removed by Spirosp on 3rd August 2007 with this edit summary: "Deleted: a reference to a website which does not conform to Wikipedia rules on NPOV or reputability. It is a partisan site." I couldn't find an entry where the link was re-added yet again, but this pattern of re-adding a site that has been highly objected to has been continuing right up to the present discussion. In fairness Kkrystian has made some good edits such as reverting genuine vandalism and so on, but I also spotted some extremely suspicious edits such as the one here, here, and here. Also on a related site here. I'm reluctant to launch into any accusations of partisanship and WP:COI because I don't want the hassle of a 3rd ArbCom etc. but I'd strongly suggest that a watch be kept on this article for all suspicious edits by any editor, even those appearing to do genuine work on this article. Even myself, as I am certainly not above suspicion? Even so, I'm extremely worried about this pattern of Kkrystian's re-adding a contentious site repeatedly without much justification, even into other BLP articles with the possible intention to defame or to publicise defamation carried out by someone else. We have to guard against the partisanship that has made this article suffer much in the past. I am also sad to note that Kkrystian has also removed important information that was reliably-sourced because it didn't fit his idea of what this article should look like. I will have to look deeper into this at some point in the future and restore any unnecessarily deleted info. Ekantik talk 00:27, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Appropriate infobox?
Before I would like to begin major rewrites (as per my late assurances), what do editors think of the current 'philosopher' infobox? I realise this is a bit of an old issue but I think it is just as important as it was before. I think that the current 'philosopher' infobox is inappropriate because: I'll give this a day or so to see if anyone has any thoughts and then I'll go ahead and do it. - Ekantik talk 02:02, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) SSB is not a philosopher
 * 2) SSB doesn't really have any notable ideas to speak of
 * 3) There is a long list of people he has supposedly influenced, which is already handled by the template at the bottom of the article which is also placed on all SSB-related articles.
 * 4) The 'philosopher' infobox is meant for individuals who actually made a contribution to the field of philosophy with their "original" ideas, such as Immanuel Kant, Jean-Paul Sartre, Réné Descartes, etc. SSB does not figure in this category because he has not made any significant contribution to philosophy by his own admission.
 * 5) I think the religious leader infobox is more appropriate for SSB with the correct Hinduism colour code that is related to Hinduism-oriented articles throughout Wikipedia.


 * An alternative infobox may be the Hindu leader infobox, which is slightly more detail with reference to guru (none), philosophy (Advaita Vedanta?), etc. - Ekantik talk 02:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, I have decided to Be BOLD and go ahead with this proposed change. WP:BOLD advises that if pages can be improved then to do so immediately. There will be no significant loss of information since most of the fields are redundant in application to SSB (his having no notable ideas etc), and I have outlined some more reasons above why the current infobox is inappropriate. If anyone disagrees then maybe we can talk about it with a view to making this article more encycolopaedic, even if infoboxes serve no real purpose aside from making the article look pretty. - Ekantik talk 02:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Where can we verify assertions such as "is not a philosopher"? Or, conversely, are there sources where we can verify the opposite opinion? Thanks. Avb 22:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * That's a good question. I'm not immediately aware of any impartial biographical information on SSB which speaks specifically about his philosophy. As a religious leader he does discuss philosophy as a matter of spiritual discourse, but he has not been recognised to have made a significant contribution to the field of philosophy à la Descartes, Wittgenstein, Kant, etc. To be honest I'm not even sure his philosophy counts as straight "Advaita Vedanta" (as per infobox), as he does not subscribe to the orthodox/official tenets of that philosophy, but has his own version of it. Ekantik talk 05:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Having said that, the infobox should follow the article text, currently: a guru from southern India, religious leader, orator and philosopher often described as a godman and a miracle worker -- this supports the box proposed by Ekantik. Avb 23:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

m.. emm f5
emm.. just wanna say thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.117.178.222 (talk) 13:27, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Aura
The passage about the kirlian aura was deleted in accordance with previous discussions on this page about it's coming from highly unreliable sources. Also for the fact that the ArbCom deemed it as such here. Ekantik talk 01:00, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Sketchy References
A lot of the "available online" references point to some geocities page. Forgetting that that page might be copyright violations of the original source, can that be conisdered a trustworthy source? --99.247.120.178 (talk) 20:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Because of the huge disputes that have taken place over his article, and because some or all of the articles are currently available online at activist websites, it was agreed among most of the regular editors to house the references at a neutral website. Hence, the use of the geocities website. As far as I recall, linking to activist websites became a huge problem for pro-SSB editors despite the fact that they were the only places where one could find the refs. The geocities website appears to have resolved this problem. Ekantik talk 00:59, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I found an agreement here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BostonMA/Mediation/Sathya_Sai_Baba/Use_of_Websites#Reference_Links_to_Sites_With_Agendas where two editors in a dispute agreed to this based on a more reasonable (IMO) suggestion from the mediator. Is this consensus to point to the references this way? It seems definately sketchy to me, not to mention open to abuse (if your paranoid).. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.247.120.178 (talk) 01:36, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I have no strong opinion about this issue although it seems that the above method seems to represent current consensus. My only worry is as I said earlier that most of the articles are no longer available at their original host-sites and the only alternative is to activist websites. This is a worry because linking to activist websites again may cause more disruptions and disputes that are avoidable, and also that because this article has been through 2 ArbComs, higher standards for referencing are needed for this article that most Wikipedia articles. This is related to WP:REDFLAG.


 * I'm not sure what you mean when you say the geocities site is open to abuse, could you please clarify? Thanks, Ekantik talk 02:05, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * About the geocities site being open to abuse, I meant since the conent was (presumbly) just copied and pasted from the original source it could be modifed and/or deleted by the owner of that geocities site. I admit this is probably not a large worry. I think the bigger problems are that we are NOT linking to original references themselves, which could be a copyright problem, and also makes the article seem less trustworthy. When I first read the article and followed the reference, it seemed very strange. I agree that careful and good referencing is important, but I believe linking to what seems like a 'random' geocities site makes the references seem less believable to a reader who doesn't know what is going on.


 * Yeah I see what you mean. We will definitely have to think about this. Ekantik talk 23:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * By the way, I'm aware that the article needs improvement and people are working on it. :) I guess because of the current holiday season things are pretty quiet right now. Ekantik talk 02:42, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Refactoring the lead
Given the notability of the claims, I feel like the lead could be re-written to incorporate a mention of the allegations of abuse (with proper refernces), while also stating none have ever been proved (or tried) in court. That seems reasonable and neutral to me given 'the amount of media coverage, and it could be a first step to cleaning things up and more evenly spreading the relevant "criticism" throughout the article instead of in it's own section. I don't know if this would be a lightning war for an edit war, so please comment. 99.247.120.178 (talk) 21:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm fine with that. I was going to do it myself eventually but you can go ahead if you wish. Sai Baba has come in for a fair bit of criticism and this ought to be reflected in the Lead para as it is throughout Wikipedia. Ekantik talk 22:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Cult Allegation
Why was this section missing from the article ? i have added this section, pls contribute more and add further, so that complete picture is presented, ranging from Avtar to tight mind control, sexual abuse cases have been represented fairly, so is the teachings section, but cult allegation was missing, could not go through the archive, can anyone provide any reference as why this important section was missing ? --Cult free world (talk) 17:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)


 * As far as I know, there hasn't been a section on cult allegations for as long as I've been involved with this article. However, I think it is fair to say that it should be included. I'm not very happy with the two references you've chosen though. The first is a TV review of the 'Secret Swami' programme and the second is basically a link to FactNet. Neither of these sources prove the "cult" allegation, and we would need to find sources that do. Are there any sources that specifically reference SSB's organisation as a cult? Or SSB himself as a cult leader? Ekantik talk 21:02, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Not sure if those two references violates WP:RS if you feel so, we may consider other links, however factnet is a notable site and has verified substances on their site, not against any perticuler group, but general information, review of a newspaper comes under purview of reliable source, media is considered reliable on wikipedia, we need to build upon it, would welcome you to add more to that section. --Cult free world (talk) 10:37, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * ya ya you need beter sources and you need to makes rue that you emphacize that these "cult" claims are only allegations and not acutal fact. a lot of people try to smwear genuine religious leaders by tarring them win this wthose cults and its of vital importance that we do not do that same thing because it will cause a lot of problems, with regards to legal isues in the future since wikipedia tries to maintain as wide as stand ace as possible when doing atciles on real people. sathya sai baba is an important and well-deservedly respected member of the spiritual comminity and everything that could be possible negative said about him should be sourced heavily to avoid any hint of impiety. Smith Jones (talk) 03:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Would appreciate if anyone can provide example of better source, which can be used in this article. One more point i noticed, Advaita Vedanta, and incarnation are contradiction to each other, Advaita (non-dual) explains the concept of unity of soul, and as such, each human, is an incarnation, understanding varies in degree, but is present, this is what is essence of Advaita, incarnations do not go hand in hand, and as such this is a huge contradiction!! how have we attempted to balance this in this article ? it appears as if, it simply states what is said by the group, we may need to bring out a balanced picture, by adjusting the claim that philosophy is Advaita Vedanta and Sai Baba is incarnation, of course we need much better sources for that, but just wondered as why this information was not present till now ? --Cult free world (talk) 05:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Please understand, conspiracy theories, unproved allegations have no place here unless the reader is warned that such claims only remains the theory of the author. Also understand, Sai Baba is a living prophet to many people, cult is far from the word one would assign to such followers. Choose your words carefully. --78.86.159.199 (talk) 16:16, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Fraud..
Good luck to him, cause he will be the biggest fraud to be found in the next 20 years. Period. The End. GG --212.76.72.252 (talk) 16:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * you think more of a fraud than jesus christ?? Sai Baba never uses the money for his benefit. He has built schools, provided shelter, and given support to innumerable people in need. jesus on the other hand went around saying "he" was the son of god etc. hahaha. what a tool.. and the idiots, even today, fall for it hook line and sinker.

What an idiot. What really gets me is that there is a living prophet, and people treat him like this. I guess the same people here who are showing tremendous hate, are the same people who approved of putting Jesus on the cross. But it doesn't surprise, part of speaking God's work and doing Miracles is the hate, criticisms and doubts from the non-beleivers. May Baba enlighten you, the way he has enlighten us. --78.86.159.199 (talk) 16:20, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Blunder in the summary: godmen described by his followers
The summary/lead section contains as per 14 March a blunder diff that remained uncorrected as of 13 April. Sathya Sai Baba is generally not described by his followers as a godman (Hindu ascetic) and this is not supported by the listed references in Sathya Sai Baba and Godman (Hindu ascetic) (Woodhead/Fletcher and Lochtefeld). Godman is a term used in Western Academics and only very rarely by followers of Sathya Sai Baba. I admit that the then follower Brian Steel in his "The Sathya Sai Baba Comepndium" page 83 notes the use of the word by a follower with a different meaning than the academic use, but again this is an unusual term in the SSB movement. Andries (talk) 12:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Hello Andries, congrats on your reinstatement. I would say "godman" would be only used pejoratively, and therefore never, as you say, by devotees. No? Rumiton (talk) 15:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No, not never, but of course never pejoratively, but only rarely. It is true that the term godman has been used quite often rather pejoratively by skeptics. Andries (talk) 15:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Here is what the then follower Brian Steel writes in his " 1997 book The Sathya Sai Baba Comepndium" page 83. This is the only reference to the word Godman that I was able to find in SSB devotional literature.
 * Entry Godmen "Godmen and saints are those who have realized God. [..]"
 * Clearly a very different meaning when compared to the listed references by Woodhead/Fletcher and Lochtefeld in this article and Godman
 * Andries (talk) 15:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It seems that contributors are more interested in minimizing or maximizing criticisms than in correcting clear mistakes. Andries (talk) 08:02, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, some people just like to defame others, who haven't bothered reading the Wikipedia guidelines in regards to critcisms. The criticisms in this article are all over, when they need to just be in the criticism section. --78.86.159.199 (talk) 16:13, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Missing
[http://www.radiosai.org/pages/thought.asp

Man is not aware of the grand goal of his pilgrimage. He is straying into wrong roads which lead him only to disaster. He places his faith in objects outside himself and strives to derive joy from and through them. He does not know that all the joys spring forth from inside him; he only invests the outer objects with his own joy drawn from inside him. He envelopes the outer objects with his inner joy and then, experiences it as though it is from that outer object.]
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.94.236 (talk) 05:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Mistake or propaganda
The following sentence is untrue and unsourced and can only be sourced to partisan Sathya Sai Baba devotee literature where it is quite prominent. In other words it should be moved to Sathya Sai Baba movement and described there as a belief of devotees of Sathya Sai Baba. It should not be here.
 * "It is believed by the devotees of Shirdi Baba that he would return back as a child in eight years after his Samadhi."

Andries (talk) 14:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and removed that statement from the article. Five days is enough for someone to put a source citation or fix it. Pippa17 (talk) 21:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Mistake
I believe there is a mistake on the article. There is a picture of a man with an orange robe and an afro...is this right?
 * yes. Andries (talk) 22:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Women and Stri dharma
Is there some speech of Sathya Sai Baba about this topic? It would be interesting to know more about his teachings referring to that context. Meanwhile I can offer some link.
 * Austerlitz -- 88.72.20.218 (talk) 08:52, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Glossary http://www.sathyasai.org/refs/vahiniglossary/sentries.htm
 * "stri-dharma (sthree-dharma). Dharma for women."
 * Austerlitz -- 88.72.20.218 (talk) 19:45, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Sathya Sai Baba Declared ‘Ladies Day’ On November 19th 1995
 * Austerlitz -- 88.72.20.218 (talk) 19:50, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Unverified criticism
All the red links in the criticism section have no or poor sources that are unverifiable. They really ought to be removed as it serves no prupose. There are valid criticisms sources, but those are ludicrous to suggest. It just reads on, and further adds to a long article. Lihaas (talk) 14:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * About this sentence in the section criticism: "James Randi states that "Sai Baba has never submitted to an examination of his abilities under controls, so his claims are totally unproven.""


 * What is the purpose of this sentence? What claims? Did Sai Baba claim anything? The reference, about this sentence, does not put out what Sai Baba claimed so it can be verified. There is only this statement: "His followers claim that..." and "There are claims that he has..." So, what Sai Baba claimed? Is there any reference about what Sai Baba claimed? If yes, then this should be mentioned. If no, then this sentence about James Randi should be deleted, because states unprovable claims that Sai Baba claim something, or rephrase the sentence to be more reasonable. So with this explanation I deleted this sentence.(Jonson22 (talk) 22:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC))


 * I deleted whole paragraph in section "Critics" mostly writing about people being died. It has nothing to do with Sai Baba. This paragraph is not reasonable to be written in section "Critics", because there is no critics at all for Sai Baba, only sad stories about people speaking, thinking, writing (not even sent letters), having hope about him when he was 100 miles away probably sleeping at his bed at that time.
 * Totally unreasonable. (Jonson22 (talk) 23:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC))

LGBT Categories?
Unless I've missed something (and it IS a very long article) there is nothing in the text of the article that confirms, or even asserts, that Baba is properly categorized as LGBT. I'm going to guess that these categories were added on account of the allegations of sexual abuse of boys or young men; but even if those allegations were proven, that in itself would not translate to confirmation of his sexual orientation. So both of those categories will need to be removed if solid information is not added to the article in short order. Cgingold (talk) 09:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * But isn't the molestation of underage boys by a grown man still considered a homosexual act? It's also considered a criminal act in most places.  Of course, these are allegations, but there are a number of boys who have openly claimed to have been sexually abused by Sathya Sai Baba over the years, and there are numerous citations for this in the article.  Yes, a person has to be proven guilty in a court of law for them to be considered a criminal, and I don't know of any public statements where Sathya Sai Baba has confessed to these accusations or whether he has openly claimed to be a homosexual or not, but the numerous claims against him are widespread and well-known.  Yes, they are allegations, but proving guilt of a religious leader is not always easy to do (if anyone remembers the sex abuse scandals in the Catholic Church), and in India some people actually view Sathya Sai Baba as a God.  And since this guy is considered to be such a "holy man" in some parts of India, it seems that legal cases against him have never panned out.  But for information on him, just read the Criticism section of the article for more details.  For example, it says, "The Daily Telegraph stated that Sathya Sai Baba rubbed oil on the genitals of a young male devotee. The testimonies of sexual abuse of young men were shown in TV documentaries, including "Seduced by Sai Baba" by Denmark's national television, and documentary film "Secret Swami" by BBC."  And, "According to an article in Salon.com in the year 2001, a great part of (the book) "The Findings" (by David and Faye Bailey) contains testimonies of sexual harassment and sexual abuse." Geneisner (talk) 21:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Wrong. Does he self-identify as gay? No. WP:BLP is strict here, and your statement above is precisely why. There are allegations, rumours, and such, but no definitive proof. The categories will be removed ASAP.Pectoretalk 02:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Sexual abuse is about "power over" and the gender of the abused is rarely significant. BLP does indeed rein here - if Sathya Sai Baba doesn't self-identify (and/or there aren't reliable third-party sources that identify him) as gay, then he should not be in a category labeling him as such. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 04:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Where is the source for all of this? And please don't give me some sassy page 3 newspaper, a bergmansteinsky book or a capitalist magazine. Unless you have sources from governmental sex offender lists or court convictions, Wikipedia does not allow the defamation of character based upon speculation, propaganda or page 3 news. Also remember, Sathya Sai Baba is an active prophet for millions of people around the world, be careful not to offend his followers. Focus your energy on Garry Glitter. --78.86.159.199 (talk) 03:04, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Pixelated Picture
Can someone replace the picture with one that is of a better resolution? If this is not done by a few days, I shall attend to it myself. Thanks --78.86.159.199 (talk) 01:17, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Fixed it. --Sina▼Ѧ (talk) 03:06, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion to remove Arnold Shulman's account
Arnold Shulman's literature offers no traceable sources as to his claims against the Validity of Sai Baba's early childhood and upbringing. Not only is it speculative, it is also antonymous with other article's regarding religious figures, where speculations, particularly invalid ones such as that of Shulmans, are left in the Criticism section or otherwise ignored. We do not have double standards in Wikipedia and this article needs to be coherent with articles on other such figures. I suggest to rewrite the "essay style" written account for his childhood and also other areas, with the criticisms and allegations either removed or left at the Criticism section. Readers will become confused as to the real story. There are many more critics far more notable than Shulman offering different views on the story of Jesus, however, the Jesus article carries the official story, leaving critical views a different section. The Sai Baba article needs to cohere with such articles. Arnold Shulman's account and other critic versions are highly debatable, as they offer no concrete evidence, and what is often seen as absurd in India, is that a man with no first hand understanding of Indian culture, attempts to come across as a credible alternative. In the academic environment, Arnold Shulman is also seen as invalid, simply because he does not specialize in religious studies, Indian culture or history, but makes films, of which many are considered highly offensive to some and provoking. If any criticisms are valid for an encyclopedia, it should be of writers and authors who specialize in the respective subject, both in their academic background and portfolio of work. Anyone in dispute, please read Wikipedia guidelines before attempting to disagree. --78.86.159.199 (talk) 01:36, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Schulman is the only written source that tries to verify SSB's official story, so deleting Schulman's version is one of the worst possible suggestions for this article that I can think of. Andries (talk) 18:48, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Responses to criticism
"Mr Bhagani also stated that when devotees are selected by Baba for a private interview, there is always someone else present in the room, and this is especially the case when women and children meet him."

You can not use especially in the context of always. This is not a valid gramatic sentence and even though you source the owner, it has no place in an encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenwood (talk • contribs) 02:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not the author of that sentence but I don't agree with your gramatic analysis, but if it makes you happy, just remove "always" and so the sentence says "Mr Bhagani also stated that when devotees are selected by Baba for a private interview, there is someone else present in the room, and especially when women and children meet him." But on what basis do you say "has no place in an encyclopedia"? This is more relevant than many of the other cumbersome negatives from western critics. --78.86.159.199 (talk) 17:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Bad Conspiracy Theories, Please cite valid sources & Proposal for a seperate article "Critics of Sathya Sai Baba
The amount of slack based upon tertiary sources, hate based publishings based on no verfiable sources is tremendous in this article. All of the sexual allegations, most of the criticisms are based upon an authors opinion of which many of them specialize in fields far from India, religion or Sathy Sai Baba, in chain making it only an unprofessional opinion and not a fact. This an encyclopedia, not an essay nor a hate page. This article needs to stay coherent with other articles of such religious figures. All criticisms of which many are offensive, must be either in a separate section, or we should open a new article for the criticisms themselves, similar to how criticisms of Jesus are separated from the official account of his followers. Due to the volume and dirtiness of the placement of the criticisms, I suggest opening a new article, titled "Critics of Sathya Sai Baba", where the Criticism's can be professionally verified, accounted for, validated and written based on their theorists seperate from the traditional, official story of Sai Baba based upon his believers and his direct actions, books and speeches. Many people consider Sathya Sai Baba a prophet, and the return of the incarnation of God, and this article is crudely offensive when compared to articles of other religious figures. This is a sensitive issue, and people should watch out what they write, carefully, and ensure no speculative, conspiracy theories such as the molestation theories are added unless there is evidence which can verified. Always put your self in other people's shoes, how would you feel if people made false allegations against Jesus, Muhammed, Abraham, Babylonian Jews or Herzl Zion? Please also understand, only sex offenders list's, court rulings or such verifiable sources are permitted when accusing a person of sexual indecency. Without those, it just remains a theory/conspiracy theory. The other theories such as the Indian government is infiltrated by his followers, are nothing but the same as saying the Jews rule America, it is only a conspiracy theory, that does not belong on the official story. Infact, a seperate section titled "Conspiracy Theories" in the new article for criticisms should detail the absurd authors who out of paranoia write such things. --78.86.159.199 (talk) 03:45, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.75.219.58 (talk) 18:47, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Lihaas: Is this an argument for deleting the link? I don't understand it. "(its a trust's website, not on the person. just an org) "
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.219.58 (talk) 18:53, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Impossible Resolution
I firmly KNOW that Sathya Sai Baba is, in fact, an Avatar, just like Krishna. For those who do not have the experience needed to afirm this, I make a question: what IF it is true that He IS a manifestation of God as human? IF this is true, THEN this article will never be "encyclopedic" as it should, because in this case, to be a good article, it should mention, clearly and with all simplicity: Sathya Sai Baba is a Purna Avatar - God in human form - which came to restablish Dharma on Earth.

As per hinduism the only Avataar in KaliYuga is Kalki!

And he comes to bring war and fire, not peace and love :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.2.102.165 (talk) 05:23, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Please, correct the page
and insert *. Until now I have NOT understood why this link disturbs anyone.
 * Austerlitz -- 88.72.15.156 (talk) 16:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Wasting time
Friends, why waste your time with such controversial figures? There are so many other true masters of the yogic-vedic tradition whose lives are or were immaculate! It's all here, in the web. Search a bit and you'll find them. In this short life, it is a tremendous waste of your precious time to endulge in such discussions. I'm sure some of you might have come across the latin legal term "fumus bonis juris", meaning, the smoke of good law. That's equal to the old saying "there's fire where there's smoke". So, you see, all these alegations and acusations about these fellows are a big obstacle in the lives of those searching for a spiritual path. With all due respect, but an avatar would never have such controverses and acusations upon him. Like stated before, anyone willing to do a research on the lives of all true avatars, masters, yogis and saints, will come to same conclusion, their lives were an example, pure, imaculate, devoted to God, to austerities, meditation, fasting, and so forth...no child sex abuse, drugs, murder, abortion, prossecution, prision, etc. My advice is, don't waste your time trying to prove or disprove these alegations, let the lawyers do it. If you're seeking God, you should set these matters aside, instead of geting caught in the gross mud of delusion set forth in the lives of all these fake masters and gurus. Only God knows the heaviness of the karma of these charlatains. To mess with the people's inocence, devotion, hope, spirituality and religion is the worst sin there could be. I'm sure millions of lives under fake masters await for these fellows. The followers themeselves are already under the spell of this karma, but the ones resposible for misguiding are the ones to suffer the most. Awake and free yourselves now from this karma. Ask God for true spiritual guidance and He will answer you, for if your desire to know and be with Him is sincere, a true master is surely to appear. Or perhaps God Himself will manifest to this devotee. At least that is what all the ancient vedic scriptures affirm. Say Baba is not an Avatar, nor a yogi, saint or guru. He is a tipical example of guruism, a man absorbed in his own matters, seeking his own glory and fame, along with his paranoia to have sex with young boys. I wonder why doesn't he perform real miracles like walking on water or raising the dead, like Christ and many other true masters of India had made? "Materializing" ashes and jewels is not a big deal, any 3rd class magician can do that. Why doesn't he heal the millions of people suffering from deadly deseases in India? That would be a miracle. That only an avatar can do. So, you see, such figures have been around India for many centuries, and Hindus know that well. Acctually, India has had many more charlatains then real masters. A fake guru can be found in every corner of India, but a true Guru is to be born only once or twice in every century, and these are very, very hard to find. They are usualy anonimous, not concerned with the salvation of others, neither with politics or philantropy. These guys will always tell you the truth, that God is within you, and only you can find Him. He would never ask you to follow him, or to give him money, or "special massages in private rooms", if you know what I mean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.189.112.21 (talk) 12:48, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

This article suffers from serious neglect
Nobody seriously tries to improve it or even remove the blatant inaccuracy from the summary. It used to be better. Sathya Sai Baba is not generally regarded as godman by his followers, as I had already argued months ago. There are no sources (with only one tiny exception) for that. The listed sources Lochtefeld & Edwards do not write that he is regarded as a Godman 'by his followers. This is term used by others, with a tiny exception.

I cannot improve it because I am considered to have a conflict of interest, but even if that may be true (which I continue to deny), a mildly biased but accurate and well-maintained article is better than a neglected article with blatant inaccuracies.

I suggest people stop donating to the Wikimedia foundations until at least the blatant inaccuracies have been removed from this article. Thanks Andries (talk) 14:25, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Second arbitration findings, rulings and proposals

 * 1) Finding of Facts :
 * Sathya Sai Baba is weakly sourced. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba_2#Sathya_Sai_Baba_is_weakly_sourced


 * 2)  Rulings on NPOV and sources: 
 * Wikipedia's NPOV policy provides that articles should utilize the best and most reputable source[s]. NPOV cannot be synthesized by merely presenting a plurality of opposing viewpoints, each derived from a polarized source. Instead, NPOV requires that high-quality, neutral sources be used for the bulk of the article, with more polarized sources utilized only when necessary to illustrate the range of opinion. Wikipedia:Reliable sources provides that scholarly sources are to be preferred, and offers advice on evaluation of non-scholarly sources. Wikipedia holds that particular attention to sourcing is vital for controversial subjects, and that exceptional claims require exceptional sources.


 * Wikipedia's prohibition on original research provides that editors may not synthesize viewpoints or draw conclusions of their own from primary sources or other raw data. Instead, Wikipedia articles document what reliable sources state about their subjects. Especially in controversial cases, citations should be complete enough that readers may evaluate them, and specific enough that the supporting material can be easily retrieved and identified.
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba_2#NPOV_and_sources


 * 3) Proposals: .
 * The following are the sources which the arbitration commitee recommends the editors to use as reference to this article. These sources were proposed by Jossi to the arbitration commitee.
 * Klass, MortonSinging with Sai Baba: The Politics of Revitalization in Trinidad, Westview Press, 1991 ISBN 0813379695
 * The Sathya Sai Baba community in Bradford : its origin and development, religious beliefs and practices, Dept. of Theology and Religious Studies, University of Leeds, 1988.
 * McKean, Lise,  Divine enterprise : Gurus and the Hindu Nationalist Movement ISBN 0226560090 and ISBN 0226560104
 * White, Charles, SJ, The Sai Baba Movement: Approaches to the Study of India Saints, The Journal of Asian Studies, 1972, Vol. 31, No. 4 (Aug., 1972), pp. 863-878
 * Bann, LA Babb, Lawrence A, Sathya Sai Baba's Magic, Anthropological Quarterly, 1983, Vol. 56, No. 3 (Jul., 1983), pp. 116-124
 * Hawley, John S. (Ed.), Saints and Virtues, University of California Press (1987), ISBN 0520061632
 * Urban, H. B. Avatar for Our Age: Sathya Sai Baba and the Cultural Contradictions of Late Capitalism, Academic Press, 2003, Vol 33; part 1, pages 73-94
 * Swallow D. A., Ashes and Powers: Myth, Rite and Miracle in an Indian God-Man's Cult, Modern Asian Studies, Vol. 16, No. 1 (1982), pp. 123-158
 * Sangha, Dave & Kumar Sahoo, Ajaya, Social work, spirituality, and diasporic communities : The case of the sathya sai baba movement, Journal of Religion & Spirituality in Social Work, 2005, vol. 24, no4, pp. 75-88, Haworth Press
 * Kent, Alexandra, Creating Divine Unity: Chinese Recruitment in the Sathya Sai Baba Movement of Malaysia, Journal of Contemporary Religion, Volume 15, Number 1 / January 1, 2000
 * Kent, Alexandra, Divinity, Miracles and Charity in the Sathya Sai Baba Movement of Malaysia, Ethons, 2004, Taylor and Francis
 * Spurr, M. J., Visiting cards revisited: An account of some recent first-hand observations of the "miracles" of Sathya Sai Baba, and an Investigation into the role of the miraculous in his theology, Journal of Religion and Psychical Research, 2003, Vol 26; Oart 4, pp.198-216
 * Lee, Raymond, Sai Baba, salvation and syncretism, Contributions to Indian Sociology, Vol. 16, No. 1, 125-140 (1982) SAGE Publications
 * Hummel, Reinhart, Guru, Miracle Worker, Religious Founder: Sathya Sai Baba, Materialdienst der EZW, 47 Jahrgang, 1 February 1984. available online in English
 * Sullivan, Michael, C., In Search of a Perfect World: A Historical Perspective on the Phenomenon of Millennialism And Dissatisfaction With the World As It Is, Authorhouse (2005), ISBN 978-1420841619
 * Hansen, George P. The Trickster and the Paranormal, Xlibris Corporation (2001), ISBN 1401000827
 * Bowker, John, The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions; 1997; (Contains an entry on Sai Baba) (added 21:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC))
 * Stallings, Stephanie,  Avatar of Stability, Harvard International Review, June 22, 2000 (added 21:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)).