Talk:Satori

Satori in Contemporary World
''Although the concept of satori seems to be difficult when it is translated into Western languages, it is basically a simple way to describe the experience of the world after spending a considerable time in self reflection. If one wants to experience satori in one's life, the Zen Buddhist would say, "Well, sit down and just think by yourself for a while".''

I have removed the above, as it entirely misrepresents the topic. Zen is the art of 'giving oneself wholeheartedly into whatever is happening at this particular moment', and is nothing to do with 'self reflection'. Satori certainly can't be experienced by sitting down and thinking.--MichaelMaggs 07:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Momentary or Permanent
Please can someone change the formatting on this for me? There is a bit of a dillemma between Suzuki's claim that Satori is permanent, and the claim that nirvhana is permanent while satori is transitory. Perhaps the article might highlight rather than eliminate the this dillema, which is I believe one which exists in other and self appraisals of Zen. Non Zen buddhist have criticised zen for its search for momentary awakenings. Zen buddhist have replied that their awakenings are not impermanent but result in or thus in a sense are permanent enlightenment. There is no going back. There is a bit of a dillemma between Suzuki's claim that Satori is permanent, and the claim that nirvhana is permanent while satori is transitory. Perhaps the article might highlight rather than eliminate the this dillema, which is I believe one which exists in other and self appraisals of Zen. Non Zen buddhist have criticised zen for its search for momentary awakenings. Zen buddhist have replied that their awakenings are not impermanent but result in or thus in a sense are permanent enlightenment. There is no going back. This links to the famous (for me contraversial from a Buddhist point of view) Zen saying along the lines of "after enlightenment the mountain is still a mountain and a stream is still a stream." To this, siding with those that criticise Zen, one might claim that this just goes to show that Satori is only momentary because after enlightement there is no mountain, no stream, but on the other hand it is true that they have not changed only ones awareness of them, and that through satori one has become enlightened. Or should that be "more enlightened?" This debate reminds me of the variation on the nursery ryme, "Ten Green Bottles" -- "Ten sticks of dynamite hanging on a wall and if one stick of dynamite should accidentally fall, there'd be no sticks of dynamite and no b***** wall." Perhaps Zen is more like the original? --Timtak 06:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * ✅I agree with you, this dilemma must be included in the article as a controversy. However I have no way to reference the arguments you provided in your post, nevertheless I will create the controversy section in the article. -- Federico 03:36, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

A zen master advises
Satori is the permenant enlightened person. Translation is very difficult and the person appears the Satori. And to be on the Zen path as Satori student appears the translation difficultly for the adjective of satori is also the usage of the term. It has two distinct definitions.

So the condition as transitory appears the student merely testing the Zen Path of the true monk. A life's commitment is required.

So the degree of enlightenment is the meaning of the place on the path. A bare beginning of the path is to understand in English the true nature of satori, for the soul is to be the term also.

Satori as the old enlightened monk is the soul walking now.

SO Suzuki is correct, always follow his guide in English for it is the best around right now.

--207.69.139.156 15:59, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I have read alternative...and opposed opinions of Suzuki and I admit that I no longer put great stock in Suzuki for a variety of reasons. My post will be anonymous (because signing in is such a pain and in my case isn't important) but a "zen master" really ought to identify him/her self.--70.79.82.190 (talk) 19:11, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Satori
the unspoken "ah, so desu ka."--84.157.206.10 (talk) 14:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Grammar
I'm not exactly experiencing Satori while reading this article due to the atrocious grammar and spelling. 75.127.181.74 (talk) 17:36, 12 June 2009 (UTC)Kolef88
 * Yeah this article is gibberish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 135.245.10.5 (talk • contribs) 20:58, June 12, 2009 (UTC)

"Additional pair of arms" quote
Abidagus has removed this quote from the lead: "Satori is an intuitive experience and has been described as being similar to awakening one day with an additional pair of arms, and only later learning how to use them." I don't have any problem at all with that edit, especially since a citation was requested over a year ago, but I can't help but think there might be a good, original source for that out there somewhere. Anyone have any idea where it's from? I haven't had any luck with Google because of the huge number of mirror sites with this article's text. Thanks. — Satori Son 13:56, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Tibetan Book of the Dead
I did a Google Books-search for "Tibetan Book of the Dead, satori, and blue space, without a result. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 05:32, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 05:30, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Suzuki D. T. An Introduction to Zen Buddhism...Date - 1934
The help date reference may be due to the format of the entry (for a more recent release?) but it appears the first version of the book reference is significantly earlier than 1994(A). Since Carl Jung is noted as a commentator it looks like the first edition is most likely from 1934... Also, the Essays in Zen Buddhism was re- and initially...Published January 18th 1994 by Grove Press (first published November 30th 1925)

...Google it!

Ken Swanston — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.86.5.104 (talk) 00:54, 8 October 2016 (UTC)


 * You're right, but the editions which were used as sources are from these dates.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   05:01, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

merge Wu (awareness)
I merge-tagged these as the same concept, pointed here as the article is more developed.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 05:45, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Question - Any sources, which equate the concepts? Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  06:20, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ the Chinese character "悟" means realize, comprehend, awareness, awake or enlightenment, pronounces satori or go in Japanese, and pronounces wu in Chinese (corresponding to Japanese go). In Zen (Chan) culture, "開悟"(start to aware) is the initial stage of 悟, and "覺悟" is completely awakened, namely become a buddha or arhat. Wu (awareness) tells the enlightenment in a broad sense of Asian folk culture, is more like "開悟", which is the ordinary people can understand. So I think Wu (awareness) is supposed to be merged to this article. Konishi  Who  Talk  08:23, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose merge; even though the terms are the same, the concepts or ideas may have evolved and developed differently in Japan and China. For the same of analogy, we have different pages for Buddhism in Japan and Buddhism in China. It is best to keep these independently notable traditions on separate pages, but to link them. Klbrain (talk) 07:15, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose per . Nick Moyes (talk) 20:37, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose per . Eleuther (talk) 23:23, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Closing, given the consensus not to merge. Klbrain (talk) 10:21, 20 February 2020 (UTC)