Talk:Saturn (mythology)

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Is Saturn the origin of Satan? Since the other kings of Hell such as Beelzebub or Astaroth have some source from pagan deities. Satan may hypothetically have ties to Saturn, due to Saturn being associated with the god Cronos, who relates to the Phoenician and Canaanite god associated with child sacrifice (Baal, Molech). Cronos may be related by way of the mythology of him eating his son, whereas Molech would devour the children of his subjects.
 * No, Satan is from a Hebrew word meaning something like "adversary." Lusanaherandraton (talk) 05:52, 6 June

I removed the sentence "Saturn was first observed by the famous Italian astronomer Galileo Galilei" since it creates the impression that the planet was unknown before, and in general seems rather irrelevant in the context of an article dedicated to the god and not the planet.

213.47.127.75 20:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Need more content here
Though this page has substantive content, it is very stubby and needs to be filled out, and NOT by assuming that Saturn = Cronos!

Macrakis 17:05, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps someone can explore co-relations between Cronos, Saturn and Chronos--all of whom seem to have become blurred at some point. Cronos is associated with grain and a "Golden Age"; Saturn is the god of harvest, also indicating "time"; all three are depicted as old men with a sickle (which, arguably, has influenced western imagery of the Grim Reaper)... - CLR 1:12, 5 Sept 2005

Goya Picture
I am somewhat concerned with the choice of Goya's Saturn as an illustration in this article. Although it is certainly a compelling painting (not to mention one of my personal favorites), I don't know if it really gives an accurate impression of Saturn, who was a more benign deity than the painting would suggest. Wouldn't an ancient Roman depiction of Saturn be more appropriate, as it would help give a more historical perspective? Asarelah 06:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sure that the only reason it's the article's only image is that it's the only free-use image of Saturn anyone's bothered to put up yet. If we could find any more such images of Saturn, certainly adding them would be an excellent idea. (Though I don't see the need to remove the Goya image we currently have: as you point out, it's a great pic, and it's only problem is that it's not accurate as the classical representation, only the more modern one, which will be solved if we can find some good classical representations.) -

70.59.21.149 04:08, 22 December 2006 (UTC)70.59.21.149 04:00, 22 December 2006 (UTC)==See also== I am a total novice at this. I couldn't see how to make an IP address. I am a retired chemist by profession and amateur botanist. My only comment on this article is that I do not believe that Saturn could have been a corn god since corn was unknown in Europe until after the Americas were discovered. It was domesticated in the New World and I can provide references if you need. 70.59.21.149 04:08, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Silence 07:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Roxie Yasoxiez (talk) 13:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)I removed the Goya picture because it is inappropriate for this article. The Chemist above me is correct is saying that they Ancients did not have “corn”, however, the chemist is thinking of maize. Prior to the discovery of maize, the word corn was used to describe grains, such as wheat. Perhaps we should note that somewhere to avoid confusion.

Are you from America? In several dialects of English, such as British English, the word "corn" is commonly used to refer to grain other than maize. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.197.98.28 (talk) 18:51, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Saturn and Tool(band)?
Tool makes constant reference to Saturn on their song "The Grudge", on the album Lateralus. "Saturn comes back around, lifts you up like a child or drags you down like a stone". How does this connect with the mythology of Saturn?--Moeburn 15:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Possibly they are talking about Time (see Cronus/Cronos/Kronos the Greek god that Saturn is the Roman version of), or the passage of time, the seasons. The passage of time can be good or bad for you. That's just my own interpretation from what you said, but it looks like others have gone in more depth on this song here: https://genius.com/3171576 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.113.244.81 (talk) 23:01, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Added Caravaggio
I forgot to put an edit reason during my most recent change. I simply added a classical example of Saturn as depicted by the 16th century artist Caravaggio. I also aligned the modern interpretation by Goya alongside the section on later interpretations and placed the Caravaggio with the early concepts. It's a start. I couldn't locate an earlier depiction.

Naomichanart 22:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Not by Caravaggio
I'm almost certain that this drawing was not done by Caravaggio. This is definitely not his style!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.70.72.163 (talk) 21:09, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Astrology??
How come this article discusses astrological symbolism?? --Nathanael Bar-Aur L. (talk) 19:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Because people who don't understand astrology like to make bold assumptions of its value, and ignore the simple fact that an entire section on the subject is discussed elsewhere already. SctNocturnal (talk) 16:18, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Why wouldn't it is my question to you, if you want to talk about satan, then you will have to look into astrology for your answers, as with any god. that being said, I'm not going to harp on or leave a reference for anything, but, I will say the tarot card the devil relates to saturn and the element of Earth(being saturn ,the keeper of time is the ruler of earth.) It depicts satanic influences or/energies. its astrological star signs are aquarius(the water bearer) and capricorn. (the goat) the elements associated to these to signs are; water and earth. both being of a passive nature. ie; imprintable, in magical context. the gesture or hand sign people call sign of the horns, often associated with heavy metal bands etc. is a depiction of these energies, being in that the thumb relates to spirit,and the elements are put above it. this relates to matter over spirit (which is considered satanic point of view) as opposed to spirit over matter.

Saturday
The article says Saturday is the only day that retains its Roman name. Monday made its way from the Latin Dies Lunae (Moon Day) through German to English. Same with Sunday, Dies Solis, so I'm just going to remove that clause. Cadwaladr (talk) 22:37, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Very strange article - one should not understand that all our society is guided by a god who devores his children! Our lawers and theocrates wear black clothes!!! They even don't know why!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.217.132.127 (talk) 09:25, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Freemasons
The Freemasons called Saturn the roman god of agriculture, justice & strength. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.159.150.56 (talk) 22:14, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Satres
Satres (Etruscan god) = Saturnus

from: http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/religion.html#Gods Böri (talk) 11:06, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Saturn mythology section
The entire style of the description here is quite, quite wrong: this is supposed to eb a factual account, not a story: "Three of these creatures were monstrously huge" indeed. Could somebody with more time than i have, and an understanding of this subject, possibly correct this?


 * I completely agree. The section gave the impression that Saturn was a historical figure who lived in Babylon, then moved to India before moving to Greece and then Rome.


 * I have renamed the traditions section "In mythology". Removed information about other similar gods from other cultures and added the words "In Greco-Roman mythology" at the start of the section.


 * How Saturn relates to gods from other cultures should be presented but it should be done in a scholarly, well referenced, way. It should not be presented in the form of a story. --Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 16:26, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Lede and other
The lede is too long, detailed and confusing, it has quite a few unreferenced statements too. The depiction of the god remains very fuzzy and even misleading. I found the analysis by Briquel very well informed and complete (available at Persée).Aldrasto11 (talk) 04:05, 24 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I added some hasty info and did some cleanup one afternoon after I found the article in this state, which mainly retold the genealogical myths of Cronus and focused on astrology. None of the information I added, however, lacks a source. If a footnote appears at the end of a paragraph and there are no other footnotes, it covers the whole paragraph. Per WP:LEDE, summary or overview statements in the intro that are explained and cited in the body of the text don't need a footnote. Agree that the article needs better organization, that several elements in the lede don't need to be there, that as a whole it's rather minimal, and that a fuller treatment of the figure would also include the medieval and Renaissance tradition of mythography, where Saturn is an interesting and distinct figure. Don't agree, however, that the article should become an attempt to uncover the "real" Saturn through the lens of Indo-European studies, if that's the Briquel article you mean. That is only one scholarly approach. Cynwolfe (talk) 11:53, 24 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It is just one approach, but if one makes the effort of reading the article one will learn that Briquel draws exstensively on the work of other scholars, as A. Brelich and G. Piccaluga among other. And he is here as usual very balanced and objective. Certainly the results of  his analysis cannot be disregarded and not mentioned, even if his conclusions may not be necessarily agreed with/upon.Aldrasto11 (talk) 05:18, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree. It would have a valuable place in establishing the complete tradition of Saturn. In the case of this figure in particular, it seems that a chronological approach period-by-period would help. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:07, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, it will be a challenge to distinguish the scope of this article from that of Saturnalia. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:14, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I think the statements below are to be footnoted or explained. In the article there is either no reference to this or clear and exhaustive explanations. Some things to do or food for thought. Sorry I have no time now to edit further.

In ancient Roman religion and myth, Saturn (Latin: Saturnus) was a god of agriculture, liberation, and time. '''Was he? Who said this? was Saturn a god of agriculture? what about liberation? what sort of liberation? what about time? why is he connected with time? On what grounds?''' His reign was depicted as a Golden Age of abundance and peace. He was thus a god of wealth'''Was he? Who said this? In which sense had he to do with wealth?''', and the Temple of Saturn in the Roman Forum housed the state treasury. In December, he was celebrated at what is perhaps the most famous of the Roman festivals, the Saturnalia, a time of feasting, role reversals, free speech, gift-giving and revelry. Saturn the planet and Saturday are both named after the god.

The Romans identified Saturn with the Greek Cronus, whose myths were adapted for Latin literature and Roman art. In particular, Cronus's role in the genealogy of the Greek gods was transferred to Saturn. As early as Livius Andronicus (3rd century BC), Jupiter was called the son of Saturn. The Roman Saturn, however, had two consorts who represented different aspects of the god. The name of his wife Ops, the Roman equivalent of Greek Rhea, means "wealth, abundance, resources." Earlier '''Was it earlier? What authority states this?''' was his association with Lua ("destruction, dissolution, loosening"), a goddess who received the bloodied weapons of enemies destroyed in war.

Under Saturn's rule, humans enjoyed the spontaneous bounty of the earth without labor in a state of social egalitarianism '''How is this compatible with the view that Saturn is a god of agriculture? Agriculture and its gods are of a different nature. '''. The revelries of Saturnalia were supposed to reflect the conditions of the lost mythical age, not all of them desirable except as a temporary release from civilized constraint. The Greek equivalent was the Kronia.

According to Varro, Saturn's name derived ab satu, from the word for "sowing." '''Is Varro's view sufficiently founded? Can the name unquestionably be related to verb sero? Are Saeturnus (old Latin name) and Etruscan Satre related to verb sero?' Another of his epithets that referred to his agricultural functions was Sterculius, from stercus,'' "manure." '''Is Stercutus necessarily related to agriculture? Does stercus mean primarily manure? Agriculture was central to Roman identity, and Saturn was a part of archaic Roman religion.Wow, agriculture was certainly central to Roman identity, but as a matter of fact shepherding was even more so at such early times. RR and pecunia? His name appears in the ancient hymn of the Salian priests Does it? What is the authority?''', and his temple was the oldest known to have been recorded by the pontiffs. It was located at the base of the Capitoline Hill, and a row of columns from the last rebuilding of the temple still stand.

The position of Saturn's festival in the Roman calendar led to his association with concepts of time, especially the temporal transition of the New Year. Macrobius (5th century AD) presents an interpretation of the Saturnalia as a festival of light leading to the winter solstice. In the Greek tradition, Cronus was often conflated with Chronus, "Time," and his devouring of his children taken as an allegory for the passing of generations. The sickle or scythe of Father Time is a remnant of the agricultural implement of Cronus-Saturn, and his aged appearance represents the waning of the old year with the birth of the new, in antiquity sometimes embodied by Aion. In late antiquity, Saturn is syncretized with a number of deities, and begins to be depicted as winged, as is Kairos, "Timing, Right Time". this is to be stated within a more critical apparaisal of this tradition.

Saturn is one of the most obscure gods of Rome, given. But mention should be made of the veiled statue ritually ointed once a year. The laces of wool at the feet. The Argei. Interpretations thereof. Etc.Aldrasto11 (talk) 02:59, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Question to Baudicca 100
The conjecture about the oiling of Saturn' statue is Graves's or is it an inference of yours based on a fact concrening Kronus related by Graves?Aldrasto11 (talk) 07:04, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Satureia
If the etymological relationship proposed by Alessio is correct, from satureia, the herb of the satyrs, then Saturnus too would be derived by satyr, which is appropriate but no scholar of Roman religion has pursued this hypothesis.Aldrasto11 (talk) 08:39, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

WTF is "phitonym"??
I have no idea, and neither Google or dictionary.com do either. All I find when I google it is a ton of references to extracts from this article :) 86.30.129.146 (talk) 14:54, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Gaia (mythology) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:45, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Latin pronunciation
A Latin Dictionary and Dictionnaire Illustré Latin-Français give it a long A (Sāturnus). Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV (talk) 14:26, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Stub?
is article a stub. Srijan Suryansh talk (ping me if you have birthday on 27/7/3.)) 12:02, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Planet (Saturn)
We need the planet too. 201.183.1.142 (talk) 02:49, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Need it where? The article on the planet is Saturn. Paul August &#9742; 09:11, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Describing gods as Sabine
There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome which relates to recent edits here and in other articles. NebY (talk) 18:30, 29 June 2023 (UTC)