Talk:Savannah, Georgia

Military information in Economy section
I removed the following text from the History section because it didn't seem to fit:


 * "The 1/118th Field Artillery unit is also based in Savannah, GA. The following link is an article discussing the history of the National Guard unit. "

I was going to to move it to the Economy section and mention a few other military units with the following text as a leader:


 * "Savannah is also the home of a large military population. Several military units, including the 1/118th Field Artillery Unit, are based in Savannah. "

I'd be interested to see if anyone has any thoughts if this should be included and if so, what other military units should be added? -- -- Absolon S. Kent (chat),

Perhaps you should start a section on past and present military history in Savannah. If the city functions as a military post this should be covered in the article. Dimadick (talk) 06:13, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Savannah's Slave Trade History
As of March 29, 2009 there is no mention of the Atlantic slave trade in the history section of Savannah. The city served as a vital part of the Atlantic Slave Trade. Along with the trading of slaves, the land upon which Savannah was founded was cleared and made ready for the most part, with slave labor. An entry about Savannah that does not give due diligence to the enslavement and forced labor of Africans is incomplete and incoherent. --Marc Garvey (talk) 18:30, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

You're right, Marc. That definitely needs to be added. Miranda Brawner (talk) 01:55, 6 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Do you have a cited entry for this information? -- -- Absolon S. Kent (chat),
 * Was it cleared by slaves? My impression was that James Oglethorpe's initial settlement initially depended on unpaid white indentured servants (English prison convicts) instead. Of course as a major shipping port, Savannah would have played a role in the slave trade, especially as Oglethorpe's initial aims for his colony were later abandoned. I do not have sources at hand, but will see what I can find. 72.49.43.222 (talk) 19:55, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

It’s December 28th, 2020, and there is still no mention of Savannah’s prominent role in the slave trade in this article. Mikep09 (talk) 13:30, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Have at it. It's the encyclopedia anyone can edit™ - Seasider53 (talk) 13:41, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Consolidation section
I have moved this into the governance section, as it is not relevant to the history of the place at all. It is also completely unsourced, and over detailed compared to the rest of the article. If this section is to remain it needs to be sourced and given the appropriate weight within the article. Quantpole (talk) 13:38, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Media
That section says Savannah Morning News is the only daily paper, but then what is Savannah Daily News? Chopped liver? I will leave it to locals to judge whether this paper is worth including. Fences &amp;  Windows  23:08, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Savannah, GA
ALL,

Does anyone know the origin of the name "Savannah" for this city?

Ed Locklin at mp367. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elocklin (talk • contribs) 20:25, 11 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Savannah River, named for the Savannah band of the Shawnee. All these pages could use name origin info. There's a bit about it on the Westobou River page. Pfly (talk) 22:03, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Sherman's March
I'm a bit surprised that there is no mention of the Civil War, especially Sherman's March. This is how Savannah is best known to the world, is it not? EastmeetsWest (talk) 19:03, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Savannah's long history is described under a separate article: History of Savannah, Georgia.Mason.Jones (talk) 18:59, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Climate
I don't know how I would suggest revising it, as yet, but any discussion of average and record temperatures is skewed by the fact that the equipment that measures official temperatures is located at the Savannah airport, about 10 miles inland from the city center. Proximity to coastal waters often makes a significant difference in this part of the world. Temperatures are often several degrees or more hotter at the airport during the summer months and several degrees or more colder during the winter months. It makes more of a difference for Savannah because we are right on the edge of USDA's Zone 9 region. So, officially, according to the record books, we appear to have a less favorable climate for growing subtropical trees and shrubs. Yet a tour of downtown Savannah and neighborhoods south and east reveal many healthy Zone 9a trees and shrubs, while a trip west toward the airport reveals mostly Zone 8b plantings. Of course in my years here, I've seen Tybee get as cold as the airport on more than one hard freeze occasion. But generally, there is a difference, if not in temperature, in duration of cold, due to moderating influences of higher sea water temperatures and tides. But I think perhaps the easiest and best way to manage the changes I'm suggesting is to just include in the climate section a photo of a nice mature subtropical palm that you can find downtown, like Syagrus romanzoffianum or Washingtonia robusta. And I can provide that if necessary. Gikiweek (talk) 22:33, 9 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I suspect the situation is similar for many other cities, including coastal cities, since weather-reporting equipment is commonly located at airports. While there's nothing wrong including a photo of a palm tree in downtown Savannah (especially if it's a good photo that also includes a city landmark), I'm a little doubtful that more than a tiny handful of readers would realize its significance in relation to recorded temperatures. What would be really ideal would be a reliable source (either print or online) noting the temperature difference. Rivertorch (talk) 08:44, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

To give a better idea of Savannah's climate the average daily low and high temperatures for January and July (if not for all 12 months) should be shown. Giving the all time extreme high and low conveys very little about the cities climate. I have no access to this kind of data (nor do I live in the US) so I cannot contribute anything. But hopefully someone will read this who can and will do so. Sorry - I feel like a bit of a whiner. I came to the page to check out Savannah after watching Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil. It looks like a really nice city.93.107.88.130 (talk) 18:37, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Introductory Sentence
I'm not sure how best to modify the exact wording of the intro, but actually Savannah is not the oldest city in what is now Georgia. There was a short-lived Spanish city called San Miguel de Gualdape that predated Savannah in the area that became Georgia. Also there were numerous native Americans settlements throughout Georgia which predated San Miguel and all other European settlements, of course. Nevertheless, there must be a succinct way to revise that first sentence to provide a more accurate description without having to go into all the details. A couple of possibilities: 1) Savannah is the oldest British colonial city in the U.S. state of Georgia.... Or, 2) Savannah is the oldest continuously occupied city in the U.S. state of Georgia.... Davison.1988 (talk) 02:18, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Calling it the "oldest city" completely ignores the Native American and Spanish cities in the area that preceded it. Miranda Brawner (talk) 01:51, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Railroad Museum and Terminal and Shops
Can someone familiar with Savannah look at these three articles: It seems to me that they can be merged into one or two articles. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 02:26, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Central of Georgia Railroad: Savannah Shops and Terminal Facilities
 * Georgia State Railroad Museum
 * Historic Railroad Shops

"parklike" - use English
This is the English Wikipedia - it should use English. "Parklike" is not an English word. Just because the error has been in the article for 5 years doesn't make it right. When used as a compound adjective, "park-like" is correct. (I checked with a university language professor on this.) Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 14:33, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

English Wikipedia, yes, but we follow American English protocols in Wikipedia articles about U.S. people and places. Compounds with "like" are closed up in American English (all major style books) unless the root noun has multiple syllables: thus, "parklike," "birdlike," "tortoiseshell-like." British English might hyphenate such words (it imposes hyphens more often than American English does), but frequently enough it doesn't if the root noun has one syllable ("park" or "bird"). Finally, a university language professor is not a manuscript editor by profession, which I am. Mason.Jones (talk) 14:56, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

" Parklike" is not in the Oxford American Dictionary. But have it your way. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 15:01, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

"Parklike" is known as a temporary compound, and not all temporary compounds would be listed in the dictionary. There's no reason to be this difficult, especially with a Wikipedia contributor who is a professional copy editor. Have a good day.Mason.Jones (talk) 15:16, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

OK, I'm sorry if I came off abrupt - I apologize. Leave it as it is. (BTW, the professor I consulted retired after about 40 years, but he was the editor of an academic journal, one on teaching languages.) Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 15:24, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

No problem -- thanks for your message.Mason.Jones (talk) 23:14, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Julian/Gregorian dates
Might it be an idea to give both versions of the date, so that the matter can be clear to everyone? I have a similar problem with a 15th-century date. Textbooks give it according to the Julian calendar, so it actually happened nine days later by the Gregorian calendar. To confuse matters even more, a date on a tomb appears to place the event a year earlier, because it happened before Easter. LynwoodF (talk) 14:46, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Those dates cited above from Savannah are according to the Julian calendar, which was used there till 1752.  The textbook giving the fifteenth century Julian date is right - the Gregorian calendar didn't even exist in the fifteenth century.   The argument about "Georgia Day" is a strawman - per  "The majority of early Americans held on to the birthdays they'd always used".   All their birth certificates give their birthdays in the Julian calendar.   The date in the log of the ship that was first to reach the Savannah river was 1 February.   Anything else is wrong. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 15:20, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I was merely suggesting a compromise. Mason Jones grew up in Savannah and I assume he knows what the convention is there. I agree with you that the textbooks are right to use the Julian day of the month for the 15th-century event, but having used this date in a lecture I gave, I needed to explain why it did not agree with the date on the tomb. I threw in at the end the comment that by modern reckoning it would have been a third date, just to make the point that these things are fluid. LynwoodF (talk) 18:07, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * That's a very different situation from what we're discussing here.  Once you start introducing fictitious dates the encyclopaedic value of the article is lost.   If you quote from a newspaper published on 1 February 1733 and give the date as 12 February scholars are going to go round in circles trying to locate the source.   If the paper says 1 February 1732 and the article says 1 February 1733 people know enough to home in on the correct year. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 18:38, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Could we get back to my original point in starting this section? I suggested that both dates be mentioned, so that the matter would be clear to all readers. LynwoodF (talk) 16:11, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Why assume that there is a convention in Savannah which Mason Jones knows about and nobody else has heard of?  Encyclopaedia Britannica gives both dates, and I agree with you that would be sensible.   Don't allow him/her to thwart a consensus by edit warring. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 15:17, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

The date of February 12, 1733, for the founding of Savannah is the only one mentioned in published sources in the United States, and the one that appears in all primary and secondary sources attached to this article. (The Encyclopaedia Britannica I have does not mention the Julian date of February 1 but the Gregorian date: February 12, 1733.) A possible compromise is a footnote or a brief parenthetical tag -- thus: February 12, 1733 (February 1 according to the Julian calendar used in the British colonies at the time). Anonymous editors cannot replace dates, facts, and figures that are backed up by all primary and secondary sources. The replacement of the established date of February 12 by fiat is not good-faith editing by Wikipedia standards, and it is unacceptable.Mason.Jones (talk) 15:57, 11 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm wary of people who quote dates in books because all too often what they say is wrong.  The current Encyclopaedia Britannica article Savannah, Georgia, United States gives no more than the year.   Have a look at User talk:156.61.250.250 where an editor misrepresented sources in an attempt to do for the Russian composer Sergei Rachmaninov exactly what you are attempting to do for Savannah.   However, in this case it appears that everyone is agreed that both dates should be cited. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 16:30, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I refer to the old multivolume edition of Britannica (long form, not the current "micro" and online editions, which mention only 1733). That said, Georgia Encylopedia, World Book, and all current US encyclopedias follow Gregorian protocols regarding America's colonial period (as do all current US and British visitors' guides about Savannah). It is February 12 without exception. I disagree that both dates should be cited in this article, as that is not done elsewhere in Wikipedia for this period; I am, however, willing to compromise and include a Julian tagline.Mason.Jones (talk) 18:14, 11 May 2015 (UTC)


 * , your idea of a parenthetical tag is just the kind of thing I had in mind when I started this section. LynwoodF (talk) 19:21, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Very good -- and I will add it to the main citation.Mason.Jones (talk) 22:51, 11 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I've checked the paper Encyclopaedia Britannica and it does not convert Julian dates.  Unless you provide volume and page I will be taking you to the Wikipedia Administrator for stuffing articles with incorrect information.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.61.250.250 (talk) 16:10, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Feb. 12 has been in the article long before I came to Wikipedia, and is fully backed up by the primary sources. Not one published source I can find gives the Julian date of Feb. 1 for the founding of Savannah. You are an anonymous editor, blocked from Wikipedia for edit-warring in March (with a warning notice in April), and are in no position to convert Gregorian dates to Julian in US-related articles when that is not the practice for dates in US history. Your changes will be reverted until a WP administrator adjudicates.Mason.Jones (talk) 19:41, 13 May 2015 (UTC)


 * What you said was that Britannica gave the date 12 February for the founding of Georgia.  You were lying.   The article "North Carolina" in Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 20, p. 437 says

"The expedition arrived at the North Carolina coast on July 4, took possession of the land in the name of the Queen, visited an island 'which the Indians called Roanoke,' explored the region for several weeks, and set sail for England, carrying two Indians, Manteo and Wanchese."

The book Set Fair for Roanoke: Voyages and Colonies, 1584 - 1606, David B Quinn, University of North Carolina Press 1985, says on page xiii

"NOTE ON EDITING It should be noted that dates used by Englishmen are according to the Julian calendar, which was ten days ahead of the Gregorian calendar, adopted by Catholic Europe ..."

Roanoke Island, the beginnings of English America, David Stick, University of North Carolina Press 1983, available at says on page 36:

"Only a little more than a month later, on April 27, 1584, his explorers departed for the voyage to America. Master Philip ... the Bahamas, successfully evading Spanish shipping, and on July 4 sighted the North American mainland.   Raleigh's ..."

Roanoke: Solving the Mystery of the Lost Colony, Lee Miller  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.61.250.250 (talk) 12:57, 14 May 2015 (UTC) New York, 2013 available at states

"We finally see Raleigh and Roanoke perspective. March 25, 1584.   Raleigh is issued Gilbert's letters patent to North American Lands.[72] ... July 4, 1584.   Raleigh swings into action with the first Roanoke voyage.   Captains Amadas and Barlowe, the pilot Fernandez, John White, well furnished with men and victuals, sail into the Outer Banks and establish peace with the Secotan.   Roanoke Island is selected as a site for the base.   In Europe the Netherlands falls.   Antwerp, the last holdout, surrenders to Spain while Raleigh's men reconnoiter.[73]   Six days later, July 10, 1584, Throckmorton is executed.   In Holland William the Silent is assassinated on the very same day, being treacherously shot with three bullets out of a gun by Balthazar, a Burgundian.[14]"

All reliable sources do not convert these dates. Wikipedia follows everybody else. Some errors remain in Wikipedia for a long time before being picked up. If you convert you get absurdities like "They went to sleep on the 13th of September, according to their old calendar, and woke up twelve days later on the 14th following adjustment of time in the interval due to the substitution overnight of the Gregorian for the Julian calendar".

Or this:

"They attended Midnight Mass on the evening of 4 January, looking forward to Christmas in the morning and the New Year a week later". 156.61.250.250 (talk) 13:41, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

You are now off-topic, as primary/secondary sources for this article must apply to Savannah in the 18th century, not Roanoke Island in the 16th (where the Julian calendar is often the standard). This discussion is finished on my end. Your future changes will be reverted until a WP administrator intervenes.Mason.Jones (talk) 14:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)


 * You are now claiming that the Gregorian calendar was the standard in Savannah in the early eighteenth century.  Provide proof of that amazing claim or STFU. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 15:45, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Timeline of Savannah, Georgia
What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content. Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 12:33, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Crime section
Most of the crime section lists stats around 2,009. The section does not need crime stats that are 10 years old. Thinking about removing stats that old. --Mjrmtg (talk) 21:42, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

The statistics are still old and seemingly irrelevant. I've made a note to update the Crime section, but there are no guarantees I'll get around to it. Ofwaterfall (talk) 14:06, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

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Coastal Empire
Savannah residents and businesses refer to the city as "the Coastal Empire". Why does that mean, and should the explanation be added to the article? Ofwaterfall (talk) 14:04, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Visitor vs Tourist
I've changed "visitor" to "tourist" twice now and it's gotten changed both times. I think the starting paragraph of this article using visitor is fair, because one could include business trips and convention goers, but in articles that talk about scenery & charm, tourist is a more accurate and less euphemistic term than visitor. The Chamber of Commerce and "Vistor's" bureau can use visitor all they want on their websites, but wikipedia should use a more accurate term. This slant towards euphemism can be seen through the whole Savannah article, like the use of the word "home" when "house" is the correct term. Also the history of slavery in Savannah is hardly mentioned at all, although in fairness I'm not the one with the time or inclination to add that information. Nebogifel (talk) 15:55, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

unclear and long image caption
"With its distinctive dome in tissue-paper-thin, 23-karat gold leaf, Savannah's City Hall (1906), which stands on Bay Street at the head of Bull Street, is the first building constructed for exclusive use by the municipal government." 1. "the first building constructed for exclusive use by the municipal government." --> of the world? in the U.S.A.? in this town/city? 2. That caption is much too long. If someone longs so much to get all these townhall details into the article, just put them into the normal text, maybe make a paragraph for the townhall or for several sights with this sort of description? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:3033:D:4604:1:2:C5A0:1CFD (talk) 13:28, 8 January 2024 (UTC)