Talk:Savannah, Georgia/Archive 1

Vandalism?
The Savannah Christian entry near the end of the page seems to have a very negative tone of voice, implying that it may have been edited by Country Day students/faculty. Thoughts?

Crime
Why is the article implicitly suggesting that there are no upscale African-American neighborhoods?

Is there, and what does it matter? All races can live equally in all neighborhoods.

Population statistics
We must delete references to Savannah as the second-largest city in Georgia. Savannah lost this title many years ago. It dropped to third-largest in 1969 when Columbus merged with Muscogee County. And it dropped to fourth when Augusta merged with Richmond County in 1996. Per the U.S. Census (2000 and est. 2004) Savannah is the fourth-largest city in Georgia (after Atlanta, Augusta, and Columbus).

As of Dec. 2005, the US Census Bureau defined the Savannah metro area as encompassing only Chatham, Bryan, and Effingham counties (not Liberty County and not Hilton Head Island). The metro area is now ranked third in population in Georgia, after Atlanta and Augusta.

Consolidation
Should Savannah ever consolidate with its surrounding county (as has happened in Columbus, Augusta, and recently Athens), it will probably regain its 2nd-place ranking, behind Atlanta but ahead of Augusta. Savannah-Chatham's combined population would be above 205,000 but nowhere near the total population of Chatham County (now estimated at around 240,000). By state law, the almost 35,000 residents of Bloomingdale, Garden City, Pooler, Port Wentworth, Thunderbolt, Tybee Island, and Vernonburg would not be included in a Savannah-Chatham merger. These are incorporated towns with charters, so they cannot be annexed, consolidated, or absorbed by a larger urban entity (unless they renounce their charters--a very unlikely scenario).Mason.Jones 19:39, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Why is consolidation even mentioned at all in the article aside from the Police merger? This is a complete non-issue and pure speculation. It's really not relevant to anything in the article and should be removed from the police consolidation information. --BWD(talk) 20:20, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Consolidation has been an issue in Chatham County since the late 1960s! Three other Georgia cities have already merged with their outlying counties (a rarity for a southern state, with only one such merger in Florida and one in Tennessee). I believe it is inevitable for Savannah, although it will be difficult to pass. This is more than simply "speculation," BWD. The same was said about Augusta in the early 1990s, but it merged with Richmond County and everyone was surprised.Mason.Jones 20:12, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It's speculation because it hasn't happened. It doesn't even belong in the article. Wikipedia records facts, not speculation. Just because this is your area of expertise doesn't mean it belongs on wikipedia. --BWD(talk) 20:16, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Savannah, the TV series
I notice Savannah, the TV series is not on the list in "Savannah in film and television." It's certainly set in the same town, but did they actually tape there? Mike H 18:31, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

The TV series Savannah did include some selected exterior footage from Savannah's historic district. But cast and crew stayed in Los Angeles.Mason.Jones 18:36, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

St. Patrick's Day
Any verification/references for that "2nd Largest Celebration in America" claim? I've heard the same said about Chicago, Boston, and Pittsburgh. -RSL; 13:05, 10 November 2005

About nicknames
My family has been in Savannah since 1745, but that does not mean by anyway I am an expert, however there are a couple of nicknames my mother uses for Savannah that are not mentioned here. The first being the Empire city of the south, that one has been around for a while, but my mother says that it came into use around the late 1940's. The second is one that you hear older natives of Savannah use on occation, that is Savannah as the woman with a dirty face. This is a name given to Savannah because of its industrial past, where as Charleston is the beautiful lady, Savannah is the woman with a dirty face. This name has fallen out of use because of the restoration of downtown. I am not sure about some of the names here the creative coast is the one that I have never heard before, and after reading the argument raised farther down in the page, the gentleman seems to argue with a bit too much conviction. However I have never heard a true native of Savannah call it the creative coast. Just wanted to give you an update - http://www.wtoc.com/Global/story.asp?s=4710760

I've lived here my whole life (technically, right outside of Savannah) and my family has lived here for generations, and I've never heard of "the creative coast" nor "the hostess city." Are these names that crazy tourists give us, or is this something us natives use? If it's the latter, I've never heard of it in my life and it's certainly not widespread. If no other natives have heard of it either, I think we need to get rid of it. One nickname that I know that's used is "Coastal Empire" (actually, that's used for the greater Savannah area, but still applies to Savannah).

Can any other native Savannians give me confirmation one way or the other on my suspicions? Thanks. --BWD 21:51, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't know for sure about "Creative Coast" that an anon. editor just added, but it turned up in some google searches. Though, I think you're right and it should be "Coastal Empire" .  As for, "The Hostess City", it was there before the anon. editor changed it.  Thanks for questioning the nickname, as I'm not by any means an expert;  Just have the article on my watchlist and doing what fact-checking I can. --Aude 22:10, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

The "Hostess City of the South" nickname dates back to the 1950s--it was adopted by city boosters during the earliest days of Savannah's tourist industry and is still used. "Creative Coast" dates from the mid-1990s and reflects Savannah's growing arts scene and the Savannah Coll. of Art and Design. These names can be deleted, but they're no less valid than the ones used in Wikipedia for other southern cities.Mason.Jones 20:27, 19 December 2005 (UTC)


 * What makes a nickname valid is if people actually use it. I live here, and neither is used. Only "Coastal Empire" is used (used commonly on WTOC, channel 11). All of the other nicknames were created by commercial interests and never caught on. I've never heard of this "creative coast" nonsense. So no, they aren't valid if people in the city never use them. "Coastal Empire" is valid because people here actually use it. --BWD 21:58, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I haven't lived in Savannah in recent years, but have heard of both "Hostess City" and "Creative Coast." If these nicknames are now out of date, why not delete them, BWD? You have the same "editing" rights as any contributor. Mason.Jones 19:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


 * That's nonsense. I find it hard to believe that I've lived here my entire life and have not heard something so "common." And no, I'm not a recluse. I'm just an ordinary guy who lives in Savannah. Nobody I converse with talks about it or has heard about it. Nor is it publicized anywhere in the media here (with the exception of WTOC and 'Coastal Empire'). Also, I have deleted one of nicknames and replaced it with Coastal Empire. --BWD 23:29, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I'm tired of all this. So...sir, I AM a native Savannahian, and I live right smack dab in the middle of the Historic district (as opposed to "technically, right outside of Savannah"), and am involved in the community in a number of ways. Because I HAVE heard of The Creative Coast and the initiative associated with it, I contacted the folks over at The Creative Coast Initiative (which by the way is a non-profit initiative as opposed to a "commercial interest.") As I said, since I have heard "The Creative Coast" MANY times in the media, I assumed that this "initiative" must keep a tally of press mentions. After a couple of inquiries (and after I told them WHY I wanted them) they generously provided me with the statistics from the previous year.

The Creative Coast PRESS MENTIONS (2004-2005)

TOTAL (152)

NATIONAL / MISC PRESS  (38)

LOCAL PRESS (90)

SMN (49)

TBR (38)

ConnectSavannah (1)

The District (1)

The Chronicle (1)

Savannah Tribune (0)

REGIONAL PRESS (14)

TechLinks (9)

Atlanta Business Chronicle (1)

AJC (1)

Georgia Trend (2)

Morris News Service (1)

TV COVERAGE (11)

WSVH (1)

WTOC (10)

RADIO COVERAGE (1)

WSVH (1)



Also, I did a google queries for a couple different "nicknames":

"coastal empire" +savannah = 48,300

"creative coast" +savannah = 10,300

"Hostess City of the South" +savannah = 991

"hostess city" +savannah = 726

This is what you call "due dilligence." Some also call it "substantiated fact." If you haven't heard of either of those either...well, then, I really can't help you.


 * Hi. I've lived in and around Savannah for 23 years. I fully understand that some of those terms have gotten press attention. However, the usage of those terms was in the context of the initiative they apply to rather than a 'nickname' for the city. Thus, those numbers mean very little. The only of those terms used as a nickname for the city is 'The Coastal Empire' by virtue of the fact that it has been used by WTOC and the SMN for decades. None of the other terms can claim that. Further, nobody (outside of their respective initiatives) uses any of those terms as a nickname for the city.


 * If you live in the city, perhaps we can meet personally for coffee and talk it over. My contact information is on my user page. Thanks. --BWD 22:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Just wanted to give you an update - http://www.wtoc.com/Global/story.asp?s=4710760


 * Hello - Yes, I am another native of Savannah. This creative coast business is all about importing businesses to Savannah. This non-profit group is financed largely by public funds. Funding from Chatham County Tax Payers, Tax Payers of The City of Savannah, the Tax Payers of the State of Georgia, as well as many other entities who are beneficiaries of Tax Payer dollars. Anyone who will support them they will receive support from. The mission of the organization, the way I understand it, is to bring new businesses to Savannah to complete with the companies already in Savannah doing many of the same things. Creative coast is the name of an entity. It is not a nickname for what is and what will always be The Coastal Empire.

Hobbits in Georgia?
See: Revision as of 13:38, 5 September 2005, "the Bilbo inhabited the area"?! That's edited from "Biblo". I don't get any credible obvious Google hits for either of these as an Indian tribe name. I do find a travel brochure which appears to be ripped off this wiki page (or conceivably the other way around). Anyone got more info? 71.141.251.153 03:58, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that too. It does seem awfully weird. Here's a discussion of the name "Bilbo." link title It comes from Europe in the 1600's. No mention of any ancient "Bilbo's." Since there's no citation and wikipedia and google have never heard of the "Bilbo," I propose deletion of that "fact." 67.35.26.61 19:36, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed. I'm removing it. If anyone wants to readd it, do so with a credible citation. --BWD(talk) 19:53, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Georgia Tech campus
Should the fact that Georgia Tech opened up a campus in Savannah for Engineering folks be noted in the educational opportunities for Savannah and surrounding areas?
 * I think so but have no information on it. Do you? JohnCub 21:10, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It can be mentioned, but the "campus" is merely a very small complex. --BWD 22:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Area High Schools
Savannah Country Day's blurb needs a source, if not it will be removed as it's an opinion without proof. HM3HtSmith 17:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I think we should add information on some of the area high schools, namely Benedictine Military School, St. Vincent's Academy and Savannah High School simply because they've been around so long and have very rich traditions in Savannah. Granted, they would have to be completely objective, modelled after college pages on Wikipedia and not turn into booster club propaganda. You can highlight famous graduates, accomplishments, etc. If the first few go well, I'd love to have every Savannah high school with a page. Before I went and did this, I thought maybe I'd get any thoughts or suggestions on it.


 * Sounds like a great idea. Go for it. I'll help out where I can. I graduated from Savannah Christian. --BWD 19:07, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * As an update: I've added an education section which includes notable highschools. --BWD(talk) 20:07, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The Savannah Country Day blurb is a bit overstated. Savannah Arts Academy has academics which come close to Savannah Country Day, so saying that SCDS is so far above other schools is a false statement. Also, I know of other public schools throughout the nation which far outclass SCDS in terms of academics and SAT scores. Can we dub it down a little and ask supporters of SCDS to please stop tooting their own horn for a while?

Other Historic Sites / Notes
Additional suggestions - I'd make changes but I don't have enough well-researched knowlegde to do so at this point:

It would be nice to add something about Forsyth Park in here, in addition to the squares, since it's quite something in its own right - A picture of the fountain there would be great as well... I understand the park used to be a parade ground for troops during (pre-?)Revolutionary times? I also understand that there is a tunnel running from the old Telfair Hospital at the end of the park underneath the park to catacombs where many yellow fever vitctims were buried during the epidemic - It's supposed to be haunted, of course. I wonder if Fort McAllister should be listed as well? It's a bit further out than the others, but might still be close enough to be related...   The idea of the tunnels under the park do exist, but there are no bodies burried there. The bodies where taken to either colonial or laurel Grove to be burried. I hope this helps some...

Savannah, Georgia
An anonymous editor recently created this page. That's fine, but it looks very sad and blank without images. I invite an editor from here to make it pretty. There is a corresponding category where you can find images, and you will likely find some uncategorised ones by searching for "savannah" (hit SEARCH, not GO). Usually location places will have separate headings and galleries for maps, then flags/insignia, then after that however you want to organise it. Take advantage of the ability to add a caption to explain the order and significance of the images you put there. Anyway, have fun. pfctdayelise (translate?) 12:28, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * '''"its reputation for Southern charm and hospitality. The city prides itself as the "Hostess City of the South." A bit treacly. Who's selling these pancakes? --Wetman 06:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

This was changed to the more accurate "old promotional name of".

Paula Deen???
Just home from my first visit to Savannah. A local told me that about half of the tourism in Savannah is due single handedly to Paula Deen. Not sure how accurate that is, but certainly a woman with that much influence on a town should have a mention on this page. I waited in line three hours before opening to get a seat at her restaurant, and more people asked about her when I mentioned my visit than any other thing. I am not from there, nor do I know enough to write about her properly, but I think somebody should add her to the appropriate sections, certainly on notable residents at the very least. Drumorgan 06:15, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

We're all well aware of her contribution, Drumorgan. Her name and the link were added to the section on "Savannah People" ages ago; unfortunately, someone keeps removing it.That's the downside of Wikipedia--it's a community, and not everyone plays by the rules.Mason.Jones 15:48, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

If not for Paula Dean I would not be talking to the most beautiful woman in the world. Thanks Paula —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.63.239.108 (talk) 02:38, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

History of Savannah, Georgia article
Support -- The current history section is far too long. There is more than enough information to support a new article (see History of Atlanta and Atlanta in the Civil War). Absolon S. Kent 21:22, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

✅ - new article created December 9, 2007. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 15:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Savannah, Georgia in popular culture article
Support -- Both the "Savannah in literature" section and the "Savannah in television and film" section should be included. A new section "Savannah in music" may also be included. Absolon S. Kent 21:22, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, yes, yes to both! And while we're at it, maybe a new article for all the famous people listed at the bottom...it eats up way too much screen the way it is now. SlackerMom 20:48, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

✅ - new article created December 9, 2007. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 15:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

St Patrick's Day traditions
Is the information about women kissing military members a recent tradition? I have never heard of this. Sounds like we may have a little original research going on here. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 04:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Kent wow ,This has been going on as a part of the St. Patrick's Day parade in Savannah for over 100 years. It began by the girls of St. Vincent's kissing the cadets of Benedictine High School (formerly all-male military high school) with bright red lipstick as they marched in the parade. In time, other women began to pick up on it as well. In recent years, it has extended to certain of the other military groups that are invited to march in the parade (i.e. The Citadel's Summerall Guards). Likewise, it has found itself even into Savannah's Veterans Day parade as well. If you find that this is not enough validation for you, please call the Savannah Morning News or check Wikipedia's article on Benedictine High School. I am removing your citation Dw0508 (talk) 19:09, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry if I don't just accept your word for it, but Wikipedia's standards are a little higher (see WP:Cite and WP:Verifiability for additional information). The statement here and in the Benedictine Military School article have no citation. If it is as easy to prove as you state there should be no problem providing a good citation. I have readded the tag until a citation can be provided. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 02:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Several issues at work here - and none in your favor...

First, do not condescendingly preach to me about the rules of verifiablity on Wikepedia - I am well aware of them, and have been involved quite some time. Since you brought up rules, perhaps you shoould read those under "Common Knowledge"

Secondly, look at your earlier comments..."I have never heard of this." Are you from Savannah? Have you ever been to St Patrick's Day in Savannah? Have you ever even been here, period? Do you not realize that dozens of Savannahians crawl all over this page everyday, for quite some time now as evidenced by the Discussion page and not a single one has questioned this? Why you? Who are you that you should question such a given? You have no credence nor credibility.

Thirdly, this is minutiae within a bigger article, that has no great impact upon the gist of the article as a whole...Don't you have better things to do? This is something that hasn't been questioned by the locals, and yet you do (see above "Who are you?")

Fourthly, although your comment was going to be removed anyway out of triviality, just to satisfy your ignorant, self-serving claim, and yet single you out on the Discussion board as acting like a complete imbecile, I have included at least 17 references and counting...that's how commonplace it is. But that's not enough...I plan to add more, and the total will increase further. Your reputation will laughingly grow.

Fifthly, I trust that every contribution that you have made to Wikipedia has every "i" dotted and every "t" crossed. Because over the next several weeks, I plan to scrutinize every single contribution of your's. You can plan on many more documentations and changes, because I will challenge and flag them if they are not letter-perfect. Much as you have done with relative, minutiae over here that you had no business making an issue over. Welcome to WikiWorld Hell...

In the future, don't waste your time on frivolous matters, and pick and choose your battles better over here...this one was ill-chosen. Again, your citations are removed - and should you choose to put them back - the editors will be notified. Your last and final warning...enjoy the week —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dw0508 (talk • contribs) 01:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Once last notation: I see in your profile that you are a native Savannahian, and attended Savannah State...and you mean you have never been to a St Patrick's Day parade to see this, or even heard of this, and yet you have to question it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dw0508 (talk • contribs) 02:37, 7 May 2008 (UTC)