Talk:Savoy

Comments
What is the reason for the NPOV tag? -- Beland 02:23, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It was inserted by anon user:210.187.74.140 with no explanation or other alterations to the article. I've removed the tag as I cannot see anything that appears to break the NPOV rule and left a note on the user's talk page asking them to explain any issues they have with the article here. Thryduulf 08:48, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Why does the first line of this entry say something unintelligable about ice cream?

Flag?
Is it just me or doesn't the flag look very much like the Dannebrog. Does anyone know how come? Schweden 19 Feb 2006

Légitimité
Whoever wrote this article included a lot of incorrect facts (I had to fix the entire section on the plebiscite when it first was written). I agree that the article overstates the current level of separatism present in the region. However I'm currently researching the history of the annexation itself (I'm a historian) and it is true that public opinion was divided in 1859-1860 and identity conflict continued to occur in the area well into the late 19th century. I think it would be a good idea to soften the tone of the article, while noting that support for regionalism (in the sense of Savoy's having its own région similar to Alsace or Aquitaine rather than being part of Rhône-Alpes) attracts far broader support than the splinter, and very marginal, independence groups. Feel free to contact me if you want further particulars... Mole2 (talk) 00:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Je ne suis malheureusement pas en mesure de corriger cet article, mais il présente la situation historique et actuelle de la Savoie de manière très orientée, sans aucune réalité. Le mouvement indépendantiste est composé d'un nombre très réduit de personnes, peu soutenus, et se basant sur des arguments peu appréciés.

I think this article was largely writen by a Savoysien (Savoy nationalist) and is totaly disconnected from Savoy's reality (a region I'm begining to be personally familiar with). Regionalism in Savoy is particularly weak in cities, up the mountains that may be a different story but that's still neglectible. Matthieu 16:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

As I understand Savoy, it's long history was due to the fact it straddled the alps. The son of the very first Count of Savoy, Hubert, married the Countess of Suse and Turin. For the next 800 years Savoy was a country that saddled the alps, and of course in later years, the capital was Turin. The Savoy family eventually went on to become the ruling family of the Kingdom of Italy, initially from the same capital of Turin. In achieving that aim, they gained support from France by ceding the territory on the French side of the alps. From then on, and still today, the border was the water divide. In that context, it seems strange that Savoy is described as being ceded to, or annexed to, France. Most Savoy territory, including the Capital since 1563, remained under the Savoy family and became part of Italy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.247.186.130 (talk) 19:24, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

I do believe that this article was written by a "Savoysien" because of the big part "Annexation and opposition" but according to my researches it is not at all far from reality. They probably overrated figures but historically and legally this text is right about facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.202.177.219 (talk) 19:26, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The problem I see here is, after reading that article, is that I have the sensation Savoy is occupied against its will by France. Is that correct? If not then there is a problem of bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.80.19.3 (talk) 16:46, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * If you go to Savoy yourself and ask if people think they are occupied by France you'll be surely laughed at. I mean come on, the independantist party won something like one seat on 23 in 1998 and that's it... Matthieu (talk) 14:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem is that today there are more French in Savoy than Savoyans. If you go to Savoy and ask people if their parents are from Savoy eight out of ten will say no. Because of this situation many savoyans will not acknowledge that they favour independence so as not to alienate the French population and the authorities. Independence is a taboo. Also Swiss are not allowed to vote in Savoy unlike French. That is why there is a bias in favour of pro-French politicians against regionalists closer to Switzerland.--Percht (talk) 01:03, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Legally France has violated the treaty of annexation several times, Savoy is not badly treated by France, but culturally, historically and legally Savoy is still a different country from France, and France does not respect international rights. Nonetheless, this article overrates figures. And the problem is that history of Savoy is written by France, it is like Lettonia and Russia, or China and Tibet, you can't trust French nor inhabitants of Savoy everyone has his own aspect of History. In fact it is not only a French problem but an international problem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.202.183.191 (talk) 22:54, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

NPOV
Hi, excuse for my english, i contribute on wikipedia.fr and I note that this article is not objective. It takes again only the vision of a minority political party in the search of an independence... Thanks Benoît

Bonjour Benoît, pour la plupart je suis d'accord avec vous; cependant il faut reconnaître qu'au moment de l'annexion, il existait une partie assez forte des liberaux Savoyards qui opposaient l'annexion (parmi eux François Buloz). Mais cela a très peu à faire avec les indépendantistes actuels, même s'ils essayent de s'appuyer sur l'histoire. Mole2 (talk) 00:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

How come so little is said about the Holy Roman Empire? A reader must virtually guess it was part of it for close to 900 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.70.144.72 (talk) 00:16, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That's because it is taboo. The empire was renamed in 1512 the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. According to Nazi propaganda it was the First Reich. Never say that in Savoy, or you'll be lynched.

--Percht (talk) 11:51, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Valdot
A quote from this article:

"On September 13, 1793 the combined forces of Savoy, Piedmont and Valdot fought against and lost to the occupying French forces at the Battle of Méribel (Sallanches)."

I asked at Funtrivia: Where was (or is) Valdot, and I got this answer:

"Well, I wish I could give a definite answer. I am of the opinion that this is one of the bits that creep into Wikipedia, and that Valdot has taken on an existence as a result. Searching for 'valdot savoy' (or piedmont) all I could find was regurgitations of the phrase you quote in your question. Or translations thereof. I conclude, therefore, that we have a Bern Williams here, or perhaps a Lt Kije. Whichever, a non-existent entity. It has reached the Czech language in translation - fairly exact translation. The only other Valdots I can find are a soul label, an Irish company or a word in Lithuanian. It is not in the gazeteer of my atlas."

So, indeed, does this place exist? Did it ever exist? Antipoeten 16:31, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Are we talking about the historical country of Savoy or the french region in this article? Perhaps there should be two articles with the french regional Savoy taking over from 1860 onwards. The article virtually ignores Turin, and Geneva. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.44.72.31 (talk) 21:07, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I realize that this is an old discussion, but here's my speculative suggestion... and now I've just checked and it's what the article currently reflects, so just adding this as a summary for anybody coming late and reading comments, "Valdot" probably is a misspelling of Val d'Aosta, neighboring region, part of historical Savoy 98.13.244.125 (talk) 17:14, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

The "Flag"
Caption: "Flag of Savoy, was also the flag of the Holy Roman Empire from 1200 to 1350." How was there an "official" flag? Where was it shown during that period? Can we get a footnote?--Wetman (talk) 07:36, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Savoisian?
"Savoisian" is not an historic word. It is a bad translation of the French word "savoisien" promoted by ill-informed Savoyan secessionists since the mid 90s. And "savoisien" is not either the historical English word, as implied in the previous revision, it is a French word. The historical English word is "Savoyan" and it is not obsolete. It is on the contrary commonly used by advertising agencies to promote holidays in Savoy.

Example :

Between Lyon and Geneva, in mountain ranges of the Savoyan Alps, German forces were crossing the Rhone. The New York Times, June 24, 1940

In the station, the walls were emblazoned with colossal shields, alternating the devices of Savoyan cross and Prussian eagles. The New York Times, November 6, 1898

New chalet in Savoyan tradition, facing south and offering an exceptional view HomeAway.co.uk, November 5, 2011

Very nice renovated apartment in an old Savoyan farmhouse HomeAway.co.uk, November 7, 2011

 --Percht (talk) 21:38, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

The map is rubbish too. Bresse, Dombes, Bugey were ceded to France in 1601 Traité de Lyon. That is the beginning of the XVII century. On the map they are already French. Moreover, the map confuses the Duchy of Savoy with the States of the House of Savoy. Here is a map of Savoy from the XVII century: Sabaudia Ducatus. And here a map of the States of Savoy (Duchy of Savoy, Principality of Piedmont, Duchy of Montferrat, etc.). --Percht (talk) 22:02, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Merge Proposal
I propose that Savoy States be merged with Savoy. I think that the content in the Savoy States article can easily be explained in the context of Savoy, and the Savoy article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Savoy States  will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned.

Kondavarsha (talk) 18:56, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

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Mysterious sentence
At the end of the Introduction it says "It returned in 1982." What returned and from where to and to where? Did Savoy return to an independant state? I am confused? ChilternGiant (talk) 14:25, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

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