Talk:Sawdust Art Festival

History of the Sawdust façade section
None of the sources provided here say anything about the festival facades. :(

In 1988, Sawdust management decided that the Festival needed a permanent façade. Local Laguna Beach architect Jim Lashley designed the new façade, which he explains was based on the “Witches House” on Wave Street in the northern part of this city.

Lashley designed other structures for the Sawdust in the late 1980s and early 1990s. The façade, just east of the entrance, constructed primarily of stucco, is based on a Spanish style home on north Laguna’s High Drive, and on Japanese architecture, incorporated into other Laguna homes. He also designed the large Sawdust administration building, basing it on the American craftsman style.

Lashley’s Sawdust Festival designs are examples of Vernacular architecture, a style reflecting local architecture, evolving over time. Many Laguna Beach historic homes and buildings, dating back to the early 20th century, were built with local materials and based on models that builders had seen in person and in photographs. Lashley incorporated several of these older Laguna homes' designs into the Sawdust plans. He explained in a Los Angeles Times July 6, 1996 article, “Before Design Committees and Building Codes, Vernacular Beach Architecture Was the Rule in O.C.,” that the cottages and bungalows this area belong to an architectural style that is strictly Southern Californian. He is quoted as saying, "People just didn't need a lot of space back then. And they typically built houses with pitched roofs with attics for airflow, and had overhangs to break the sun's glare."

sorry but this cannot stay in, til it is sourced. Jytdog (talk) 02:04, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

self-published sources
This content is all based on WP:SPS that we cannot use in WP

By 1965 the Pageant of the Masters and Festival of Arts (FOA) were the only art festivals in Laguna Beach. But younger artists wanted to exhibit more experimental art. When they were denied admission to the FOA, splinter groups began breaking off. In 1965, the Sawdust Art Festival and then Art-A-Fair festival began to emerge.

In 1968, the "Experimental Artists of Laguna Beach" was invited to join the Sawdust. Even before then, when asked to present examples of their work to the City review for permits, their presentation, which included electronic media, was declared “a hippie light show.” Yet several of these artists began exhibiting at the Sawdust.

sorry about that Jytdog (talk) 02:06, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

edits today
please address the objections in the sections above. Everything has to be verifiable and pretty much everything you added back here is not supported by reliable sources. The content above about the facade is really bad in WP, because none of the refs provided are about the facades themselves but about the architects or architecture in Laguna generally. Also please read WP:LEAD - the first section above the TOC is meant to summarize the body of the article. Jytdog (talk) 14:05, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Regarding edits today
Regarding the Sawdust Art Festival page, which states, “The next year, they rented a 2 1/2-acre site on Laguna Canyon Road across the street from the established FOA.” Please note that Herman Wong is incorrect (in the citations) in citing the festival lot as being 2 ½ acres. It has always been 3 acres. The Sawdust web page writes: “1968 was an important year for the Sawdust. The show moved to its present three-acre site at 935 Laguna Canyon Road…” I can probably find some correct citations.

Please also note that the following statement on the page is not the primary reason that the festival began to charge admission fees: “Admission, which had been free, was raised to 25 cents, to disincentivize "the locals"—some of whom came to chant and preach—from attending.” Also, none of the citations following this statement support it, so I don’t know if it is correct.

The following statement that I wrote on an earlier version of the page is correct, and is from a book on the Sawdust. (My earlier version also had a quote from this book that I would like to re-insert as a footnote.): “Admission was initially free. But in the early 1970s, organizers began charging 25 cents admission to begin to pay off the cost of that original three-acre parcel of land, which they had just purchased.”

Also, the wooden, fort-like gate is no longer there, but the latest version of the page makes it sound like the gate is still there. The gate has been replaced by the distinctive façade, designed by Lashley - that I described in an earlier version – that was taken out. This façade is the only permanent part of the festival, is recognized by people from around the world, and I think should be re-inserted. There are no specific citations that I can find about the facade, but there are citations about the architect.

Artwriter21532 17: 40, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * thanks for writing here. please feel free to edit the article - you are not confined to the talk page.  please make sure that anything you add is directly verifiable in a reliable source. that is a bedrock wikipedia policy and you need to stick to it.  for example, i took out the stuff about the facade designed by lashley because there was no source for it.   If you must use self-published sources like the website or that book  (please read WP:SPS) please use of them minimally.  before my edits about half the article was from them and that is not OK.   on the admission price, this source says " The price of admission went to a quarter only after some locals came to chant and preach rather than look."  that is direct sourcing; please read the sources provided carefully. on the two and a half acre thing, i hear you, Wong is the only one who doesn't say 3 and the other sources do. fixed that.  Jytdog (talk) 11:00, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Please note that in the article linking from footnote #17, it is written that the Sawdust Festival is on 3 acres, not on 2 ½ acres as is indicted in the article. The footnote reads, “Michael Miller. "Sawdust Festival lets the wood chips fall where they may" Coastline Pilot, 19 June 2014.”

Within the article it reads: “Walking around the 3-acre site on Laguna Canyon Road, it's impossible to miss the shaved wood on the ground or the accompanying smell in the air. The Sawdust festival got its name — and its decor — when it moved to its current home in 1968, and according to the event's website, the roughage is spread on the ground to fight dust and mud.”

Please change the 2½ acres to 3 acres for accuracy.

Thank you! Artwriter21532 17: 42, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

More Edits
Removed the second citation - to be used in the "History" category- during later edits.

Thank you!

Artwriter21532 17:50, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


 * quick notes - 1) about your edit note: is an admin. i am just a user, like you (with more experience, but no extra "tools" as we say).  2) you can use sources multiple times (the article does now); there is no need to remove a source because you also want to use it somewhere else.  thanks! Jytdog (talk) 20:12, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Added content to the history, all with citations, and corrected previously incorrect content about the history. Jim Lashley citation does not specifically mention his designing the façade, but no article on this is available anywhere. The Lashley façade is known to people all over the world and is worth a mention.


 * Also, I moved the second citation because it did not fit in the original place.

Artwriter21532 19:08, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

edits today
I just quickly reviewed your edits today. You added a bunch of unsourced content. I just reverted everything.

I have written this to you about three times now and will write it again here in bold -  per WP:VERIFY you cannot add unsourced content to Wikipedia. The next time you do this, I will seek to have you banned from Wikipedia. Please take that warning seriously.Jytdog (talk) 21:41, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Everything that I added was sourced, except for the Lashley sentence. Please restore my copy

Artwriter21532 2 June, 2015, 21:52 (UTC)

Response from Artwriter21532

 * Following is my suggested content for the historical category - to become two categories. This text includes all formatting. I have gone over what I previously uploaded and deleted anything that sounded promotional or was unreferenced, except in one case where I included (citation needed). If you approve of this new content, I will upload it - unless you want to do so. Please note that I have bolded the subheads, or the beginnings of the categories, so as to not appear as new categories in this thread. I am also not including the formatting for the images. I can add them in later.


 * Thank you for working with me. I appreciate it very much.


 * Artwriter21532 June 3, 2015, 00:00 (UTC)

Early History

In 1965, a group of hippie-type artists were dissatisfied with the nearby Laguna Beach Festival of Arts (FOA) and its jury system, which they viewed as rigged and part of The Establishment. This group held their first showing on the vacant Peacock Lot in Laguna.

In 1968, the festival moved to its present three-acre site on Laguna Canyon Road, across the street from the established FOA. At this new site, Sawdust artists began building "wildly conceived, mostly wood-built quasi-dwellings, which were heavy on the rustic theme, with no two alike." They also built a wooden, fort-like gate, and spread sawdust or wood chips onto the bare ground.

The festival's carnival atmosphere in the early days featured streakers and religious fanatics preaching amid the booths.

Admission was initially free. But a new policy to charge 25 cents came about in the early 1970s when the Sawdust purchased that original three-acre parcel of land, and needed additional money to gradually pay off the mortgage. (citation needed) Charging admission also served to disincentivize the locals—some of whom came to chant and preach—from attending.

The festival soon gained a reputation as a place to go to, and attendance reached a peak of 350,000 in the early 1970s. By the mid-1980s, the home-made booths, gate and sawdust remained. But as the festival became more respectable, attendance fell to around 250,000.

History since the 1980s

In 1985, the Sawdust spent $6,000 for a new front façade, a mock-up of the nearby Hotel Laguna and three other local historic structures. In 1988, Sawdust management decided that it needed a new permanent facade. Laguna Beach architect Jim Lashley designed the new façade, basing it in style on the “Witches House” in the this city.

By the late 1980s, the Sawdust was a bigger tourist attraction than the FOA.

By 2003, the festival had acquired professional management, charged $5.50 for admission and continued to have about 200,000 visitors a year. By then, several artists had been exhibiting at the festival since its early days and still do. These artists include Doug Miller, Larry Gill, Nikki Grant, Dion Wright. and David Nelson.


 * "This group held their first showing on the vacant Peacock Lot in Laguna" is not in any of the three sources there. Jytdog (talk) 12:48, 3 June 2015 (UTC)


 * you actually propose adding content that you know is not sourced: " when the Sawdust purchased that original three-acre parcel of land, and needed additional money to gradually pay off the mortgage. (citation needed)" argh Jytdog (talk) 12:48, 3 June 2015 (UTC)


 * In 1988, Sawdust management decided that it needed a new permanent facade. Laguna Beach architect Jim Lashley designed the new façade, basing it in style on the “Witches House” in the this city.  - not supported by the sources provided.  we have talked about this particular several times now. Jytdog (talk) 12:48, 3 June 2015 (UTC)


 * no support for "Larry Gill" Jytdog (talk) 12:48, 3 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Citations 19 and 20 have nothing to do with the text that reads, “Admission, which had been free, was raised to 25 cents in the early 1970s, to reduce the presence of people who came only to preach or chant and not to look at the art.”


 * Artwriter21532 June 3, 2015, 17:36 (UTC)


 * Added new content with new citation/reference, at Jytdog's suggestion, to the early history to make it accurate.


 * Artwriter21532 June 4, 2015, 16:32 (UTC)


 * Added two sentences about the façade’s two phases, with each sentence having an appropriate reference/citation.


 * Artwriter21532 June 4, 2015, 16:48 (UTC)


 * Added content about three current artists at festival, all with appropriate references/citations.


 * Artwriter21532 June 4, 2015, 17:00 (UTC)


 * Please consider walking away from Wikipedia. Even with me scrutinizing your edits you are still adding unsourced content. For pete's sake man.Jytdog (talk) 19:26, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

"so much so that the only new artists it accepts are from Laguna Beach"
above quote is from Powers. this edit wasn't valid and the edit note "Removed phrase about festival only allowing local artists to enter, as this is not mentioned in citation #15." was not true. restored it in this dif. Jytdog (talk) 18:17, 12 June 2015 (UTC)