Talk:Scanger/Archive 1

Defination
My understanding of the article was to help define the term "Scanger" and not categorise it.

I am a Southsider living on the Northside. From reading the article, I found that there was no direct assault on either north or south of the liffey. The article appeared to describe in detail, together with examples,  the term scanger.

My own view is that the term scanger is a derogoratory term, and would often be used to insult a person.

Trevor.

I agree, this page explains a phrase, it does not condone it, but article should not be deleted or substancially altered

I believe that this article has no reason to be included in Wikipedia. As a proud Northsider, and someone who would be classed a "scanger" due to my appearance, I have to say that although this article is quite humourous, it is entirely based on opinion. As of yet I am unaware of any hard and fast classification system in Dublin society other than that of snobbery. Anyway, some people like the stench of the streets, it reminds them of who they are.
 * Unsigned comment by saluedo


 * You could nominate it for deletion - see Votes_for_deletion. 147.114.226.175
 * If this is truly a commonly used term, it does merit an article. However, as saluedo stated, it is "entirely based on opinion" at the moment, and needs to be put in a neutral point of view (see WP:NPOV). It should be an article about the term scanger and how it's used, not a personal account of a stereotype. I would edit it myself except I've never heard of the term. --Halidecyphon 08:12, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Halidecyphon, saying it is entirely based on opinion is like saying the use of the word gold is entirely based on opinion. It is the opinion of the person using the phrase to use it when talking about a particular metal. The phrase is not stereotyping a subset of society, it is explaining what is meant by the use of this stereotype. Article should be left intact.

Unsuitable for encyclopedia
I agree the article as written is unsuitable for an encyclopedia but I wouldn't like to see it deleted. I made an attempt at one of the earler entries specifically avoiding contemporary stereotypes.

I believe there is a generic social phenomenom occuring here which is important to document. I think the characteristic element is behaviour and thinking driven by short term gratification but this is my personal (non-professional) reading of the term.

"Thinking driven by short term gratification" could apply to virtually any social group, including the "muddle classes" and the super wealthy. Also, many of the speech patterns outlined could be attributed to non-scanger Dubliners. The description is one of a social type, not of a derogatory word, and its detailed and humorous content seems to justify the usage of such a word. Imagine an entry describing “kike” by listing characteristics of Jews, showing a picture of Jews, and suggesting alternative derogatory words for them (The CHV term seems particularly venomous to me). ‘Scanger’ as a social phenomenon, should be understood as an idiomatic word, not a social type. The entry should stay, as a description of the term may be useful to those ignorant of it, but it should be greatly edited. Paul from the northside

It's possible that there is a more useful term from mainstream sociology that could be referred to. I wouldn't know where to begin looking but the entries on Chav and Social Class may be relavent.

I agree. Its definatly notable, and they're not the same as chavs anyway. --Richy 17:39, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Its in a bad state but I think its as valid as the chav article.-- 83.71.144.13 29 June 2005 08:16 (UTC)
 * What do you think could be done to improve it? — Doshea3 2 July 2005 12:33 (UTC)

As a southsider from Dublin but from an area considered to be full of Skangers (Tallaght) I would have to agree that the description is accurate and should remain on this site. The description correctly notes that skangers are not solely located on the northside of Dublin but the preconceptions do tend to point towards that side of the city. Its Also true that the people who impose the label Skanger on others generally come from southside Dublin in areas such as Blackrock, Renlaigh etc. however people in northside suburbs such as Sutton, Howth etc can be just as judgmental.

In short while northsiders may not be happy with the description it is, in-fact accurate.

Alan.

Rewrite
I have rewritten and rearranged most of the article. I have included as much information as possible. I think it is from a relatively neutral point of view now, and in a logical order.

I removed the reference to "Jaysus, It's F**kin' Freezin'", because I think that this, though humourous, is not a common enough term for inclusion.

I'm not sure whether or not the link to Overheard in Dublin should refer to things overheard specifically of scangers, since on browsing that site, it is just Dubliners in general.

Also, I would like to suggest that any future editors use the spelling with a 'c', - 'scanger' as opposed to 'skanger'. The latter is rather inelegant looking. I don't believe there is a standard spelling, but for the sake of continuity, I think using 'scanger' is a rather better idea. Also, 'skanger' already redirects to here.


 * Doshea3 21:34, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Definitely Suitable for an Encyclopedia
I think the fact that we even bothered looking for the definition of what a scanger is means it should be left online. Sure its a bit tongue in cheek but describes acurately what your stereotypical scanger looks like. I would also be classed as a scanger and find nothing wrong with the article.

'''As a reformed skanger, I am more than happy to lend my support to this timely and informative entry. Education is power. It is only by highlighting the shortcomings of our betashed brothers that we can hope that they will learn the error of their ways. Also, in my skanger days I was regularly called a 'skek' by more educated and handsome southside types, yet I saw no reference to this term in the article. Perhaps it should be included. It would be most regrettable if skeks were to think that the article does not apply to them as well. Regards, B Ahern'''

Great Article
But surely it is "skanger" not "scanger"?--83.71.81.47 5 July 2005 17:43 (UTC)


 * Since there is no standard spelling, as far as I am aware, I chose to keep the page as "scanger" and not the rather more unconventional-looking "skanger". It is really much of a muchness, and "scanger" is just the pick of the two for the article's purpose.  Also, good on whoever had the idea to include "scanger or skanger"! — Doshea3 8 July 2005 17:45 (UTC)


 * I have to put in my vote for "skanger" being used as the primary term. The word, and to some extent this article, is primarily humourous, and, as everyone knows, k is the funniest letter in the alphabet. By the way, this article is very good - anyone who worked on it is probably qualified/interested to help out on the Ross O'Carroll-Kelly article, which I'm currently working on. RMoloney 22:15, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Ironic
What I myself find as ironic as I do irritating in "scangers" is that while in one hand they are die hard supporters of English soccer and participate in what are quntessentially english cultural debates and phenomena, they proclaim themselves to be deeply anti-english. On the other hand, the majority of scangers are opposed to the fundamentals of Irish nationalism i.e language and the tradition. They are often seen exclaiming "up the 'ra" while wearing english soccer jerseys or listening to english music. Conas a ta tu is often responded to by "shut up, you pikey" or "speak english you ****". I accept that not all scangers are like ths but it is as much a part of their appearance as the ridicuolous cap! Perhaps this hypocracy is just a manifestation of their pointless rebellious nature.


 * That is an interesting point. I may add a little regarding that. — Doshea3 8 July 2005 17:45 (UTC)

Fun article, but too personal:

"Some male skangers can also be referred to by a modified version of their surname, ie; Byrne becomes "Byrner" & Flynn becomes "Flynner"." - This is an English public school affectation. Ironically, it is also true of the "Rugger"/Yachting set in Dublin.

"Scangers tend to be rebellious in nature, often becoming involved in anti-social behaviour—drinking, smoking, and taking recreational drugs and such." Drinking, smoking, taking drugs - I'd be surprised if such everyday activities were unique to skangers ...

'"Scangers are very often anti-British, and graffiti by scangers very often concerns the IRA."' This may be a reflection of the writer's middle class political prejudices. Skanger graffiti is mostly a lot of illegible rubbish that references nothing but their own ghettos/latest musical tastes. Usually, it's endless, showy renditions of some Alpha skanger's nickname. Skangers are apolitical. In practice, their culture is sub-culture British. None of them have ever been to the North of Ireland; though, as noted, they travel frequently to the UK to mingle with their peers on budget flights to the soccer terraces.

"Some scangers have notoriously little respect for the environment, and this contributes hugely to litter problems in the Dublin area." I agree they're prone to littering; but it's inaccurate to say that this "contributes hugely". The Irish government has one of the worst environmental records in the EU; so it's easy to see where the skangers take their cues from.  "its common to see "FTP" (F**k the provies (provisional IRA) on walls where hoods gather."        "FTP" = "Fuck The Pope".  When Loyalist youths want to vent their racism, as opposed to their sectarianism, their preferred acronym is "KAT"; for "Kill all Taigs" ("Taigs", as you know, being a mildly-offensive term for Northern Irish Nationalists.)

Overall, a fun article; but it primarily is a personal polemic; and is too subjective, too patronising, too ill-informed, too sloppily written and too narrow to qualify as a definitive account of this social grouping.

- Seán Mac, 6 August 2005

Still a litle biased...
While I enjoyed the article immensely and think it should be kept - I can't help noticing a little southside snobbery remaining. The line "if we ignore Tallaght..." as justification for attributing scangerdom to the northside is a little rich!

You might also have to ignore Inchicore (where I live), Kilmainham, Blubell, Crumlin, Kimmage, Ballyfermot, Ringsend, Ballybrack, Dolphin's Barn, Drimnagh, Rialto, Irishtown, Sallynoggin, Walkinstown, etc etc.

In truth, every Dubliner knows the snobs live on the East side and the scangers live on the West side (show me scangers who can afford to live by the sea and I'll show you a Lotto winner!)

If you manage to avoid the ususal Northside/Southside stereotype, you may have the beginnings of a fine sociological article here...


 * Quite. I tried avoiding the whole north/south issue.  I agree that it's unfair to single Tallaght out alone, so I think it should be removed.  Has anyone any suggestions on how to delicately and unbiasedly mention the common prejudice against Northsiders?


 * While I'm editing this page, I thought I'd mention why I removed "or weaagh" at the beginning, if whomever added it is wondering—the "or skanger" part was added simply to show that the spelling with a "c" or "k" is interchangeable (as I mentioned before, titling the article with a "c" spelling was the luck of the draw, even though I think "skanger" is probably more accurate, even without an official spelling). I added "weaagh" to the "Related Terms" section at the end (despite never having heard that particular term before; I suspect it's a regional variation).  Anyway, just thought I'd mention it in case there was any confusion.


 * — Doshea3 20:02, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

More Suggestions
I will probably put this stuff in later if nobody objects.

The appearance section does not mention the wearing of soccer or GAA jerseys. While there is reference to the common support of Celtic Football Club later, it should also be mentioned in the appearance section that a Celtic jersey is a very strong indicator that the individual is a skanger. The corelation is so strong that I think it deserves mentioning in the the appearance section. A Dublin GAA football jersey is also a strong indicator although the correlation probably isn't as strong.

Also I would dispute the description of a typical skanger's haircut; while some don quite "tight" haircuts, many cultivate a type of fringe which is held onto the forehead using excessive amounts of hair-gel or similar products. This haircut, I believe, is particular to the indiginous Dublin skanger (while gaining popularity amoung their breathren in other Irish cities) and deserves mention given that it does not seem to be at all as popular amount English chavs.

The other noted feature of the apperance of male skangers is the attempt to grow a mustashe in adolescence before the density and strength of facial hair growth is sufficient to support such an enterprise. The result (when combined with acne) is particularly dissagreable.

I also think it's important to apply a more fine grained description of social background and remove or at least qualify the northside/southside thing. The term skanger is applied to a broad range of people from rebellious lower-middle class teenagers (attempting to project violence) to hopeless (and truely violent and dangerous) long-term heroin addicts.


 * I think that including the piece about Celtic and Dublin jerseys is just a tad too much of a generalisation. While I agree that a lot of scangers wear Celtic or Dublin jerseys, I'd also say that too many non-scangers do also to make it a distinguising feature.  Even though I'd agree that a significant proportion of Celtic jersey-wearers are scangers, I'd say that more non-scangers than scangers would wear Dublin jerseys.


 * I had considered mentioning both the fringe and the moustache (in fact, I was sure there was a mention of the latter at some stage), but I seem to not have done so. I'll leave it up to you, since you mentioned it.


 * As far as application of the term to those on the worst rung of the antisocial ladder, I think the term "scanger" is more likely to be used against the mildly violent lower-middle class would-be thugs you mentioned. Just a thought.


 * — Doshea3 19:49, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I believe this article is informative but too "smart arse" in many respects. If the humour were toned down it might make for an interesting treatise on one of Dublin's most salient subcultures.

It might also be worth mentioning the origins of the word. According to Terry Dolan at UCD (who wrote the dictionary of Hiberno-English), it comes from the Caribbean, where it's a corruption of "scavenger."

Offensively crass and ignorant
The person who wrote this article is clearly entirely unqualified to make sociological observations on Dublin's working class community. This article emits a malodorous stench of class snobbery and the author of the entry makes a plethora of factual errors. I think they based their false assumptions on a few nighttime excursions on they saw on the Nitelink, as clearly the author has never been on the Northside or indeed much of the Southside for that matter.In fact, the author seems to be largely ignorant of Dublin city as a whole.

Accent, etiquette, dress and civil behavior are largely determined by class, not geography. This is self evident and renders the northside explanation erroneous. There are vast amounts of "scangers" living in the council flats in the salubrious areas of Dublin 4(Ringsend) & 6 (Upper Rathmines Road) for example. The author also chooses to ignore vast swathes of West Dublin like Blanchardstown, Clondalkin,Walkinstown Neilstown,Lucan, Palmerstown in his intellectually lazy and asinine North/Southside divide.

A more appropriate term is "roper", as in short for someone who is ropey, where there actually threat of violence.

But again, this entry should be deleted. It is an ignorant, simplistic and childish piece which tells us nothing of the wider social context of Dublin's working class and it only serves to reinforce class stereotypes. The "social origins" completely ignores any socio-economic factors like wealth distribution, education, equality of opportunity and on on which may breed such angry young working class men.

For the inegrity of Wikipedia, delete this article now or get a qualified, literate and informed economist or sociologist to submit a more nuanced piece.


 * I admit that I wrote a good bit of this article, and tried to properly format and reword certain additions.


 * On your observations on the intellectually lazy and asinine North/Southside divide, I don't think you have noticed that a North/South divide is not at all mentioned in the context of the rest of the article. The only mention I can find is the following:


 * Scangers are often considered a phenomenon of Dublin's northside (with northsiders as a whole sometimes generalised this way), but this is not technically true: scangers can be found all over Dublin, and therefore prejudice by southsiders is unfounded. However, if one ignores the southwest Dublin suburb of Tallaght, it could be true to say that the number of scangers is greater in the northside.


 * This is actually simply a remark on a common misconception. (However, I don't actually agree with the statement regarding Tallaght, as I believe I made clear before.)  It does not allude to any supposed real divide of North/South in relation to scangers.


 * Also, you seem to find this offensive towards Dublin's working class. The working class are not targeted at all in this article, it is simply those who could identify with the phenomenon of the scanger.


 * I would also like to note that there are authors to this article: it is not the work of one person. My contribution, apart from some of the main text, was mainly to try to keep the standard of the article (i.e. the grammar, spelling, layout, etc.) high, and to eradicate any obvious discriminations or irrelevancies.


 * You said [i]t is an ignorant, simplistic and childish piece which tells us nothing of wider social context of Dublin's working class and it only serves to reinforce class stereotypes. As I said, it is an article not about Dublin's working class, but about scangers in particular; it is not an attempt to reinforce class stereotypes, since scangers are not a class—however, they are, of course, part of a stereotype.  The purpose of this article is to examine the application of the term "scanger" and the related stereotype.  You may disagree with the idea of exploring a stereotype; however, this is essential in explaining the application of the term.


 * The "social origins" completely ignores any socio-economic factors like wealth distribution, education, equality of opportunity and on on which may breed such angry young working class men.


 * Yes, I agree. That section needs development; however, I do not believe that my knowledge is sufficient to expand that way, so I shan't do it.


 * For the inegrity of Wikipedia, delete this article now or get a qualified, literate and informed economist or sociologist to submit a more nuanced piece.


 * I don't believe that this article deserves to be deleted; I have attempted to make it as unbiased as possible, but nonetheless others may take elements as biased which I fail to notice. None of the editors of this article, I would guess, would claim to be qualified sociologists.  (I reject your idea of an economist, since as I already said, this article has nothing to do with the working class; regardless of whether a large proportion of scangers would belong to the working class or not, I believe you would offend the whole working class by implying that an article about "scangers" is an indication of them.)  I don't believe that any of the editors whose contributions were not deleted (or maybe edited) by me or others deliberately set out to create an "offensively crass and ignorant" article.


 * Also, what was your intention in your inclusion of the word "literate" in the above quote? I find that, and I believe others will, along with your accusatory manner, quite disrespectful.  There was no need to be so gratuitously insulting; if you were offended by the article, then that is because I presume you took umbrage needlessly.  This article's intention, as I stated, was to explore the term and its stereotype; it is not intended as insulting (or wryly humourous, for that matter).  (I gave up trying to prune the article a while ago, since I believed I was acting too much like a nanny, so I don't necessarily agree with some of the dubious additions intended to be semi-humourous.)


 * If anything I wrote (and I'm sure the other contributors feel the same) insulted you, then I apologise, though as I said, no offence is intended.


 * — Doshea3 19:38, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Just a little POV point
In reality, scangers are to be found in any urban area where "estates" (local authority housing) are located.

Even though this is probably true, it still appears to generalise those who live in local authority housing. After all, there are scangers in more "up-market" areas, too. Any ideas? — Doshea3 21:56, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

"Related Terms"
I made an attempt to categorise these terms as well as I could, including the region they originate, the level of offence they may cause, etc.

I'd appreciate if anyone editing this article, or adding new terms, would do their best to include some information about the terms, since it adds a lot to the overall understanding.

Also, I'd ask please if people would refrain from including terms used to refer exclusively to Travellers. The term "knacker" deserves a mention only because in some places "knacker" also implies "scanger" (sometimes moreso than "Traveller"). So the bottom line is, only include terms here that refer to the phenomenon of scangers/chavs.

Thanks. — Doshea3 22:53, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

FTP
I thought that stood for "Fuck The Pope" rather than "Fuck The Provos"...? Demiurge 11:26, 3 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Though I'm not at all sure, this sort of loyalist graffiti is often related to Catholicism. I'd probably vouch for Pope over Provos (!) only because it would be more likely that graffitists would write "Fuck the IRA". — Doshea3 15:39, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Worthy of Encyclopaedia
Imagine the confusion of foreigners bewildered by the roving gangs people dressed in such a similar manner, drenched in machismo and nylon - surely they would want to know what a skanger is. It is indeed a worthy article, excellently even-handed.

One point, you might do well to address the phenomenon of people of distinctly middle-class backgrounds appropriating the scanger/skanger (should be 'K' I think) stereotype with their own particular additions - e.g., salon haircuts imitating David Beckham, Cristiano Ronaldo, etc.


 * Ah, good point—upper-class scangers! And regarding scanger/skanger, the more I see it, the more I think that it should indeed be "skanger".  Hmm. — Doshea3 15:36, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup
I added the cleanup tag, since I think there is a lot of unnecessary information and also grammar/punctuation mistakes making its way into the article. I don't have time to do much about it at the moment, but I shall do my best to help out later.

Anyone who is wondering, I removed that image of "Scangers on a Dublin street", since it was a suspected copyright violation.

— Doshea3 21:34, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Woodsie here. Man, Celtic is deadly. Nike is deadly. i dunno what youse are sayin.


 * I'd say that removing that image was overkill... definitely not a copyright violation. What copyright would you be violating? It's just a bunch of mad lads/scangers walking in dublin... if anything the fellas in the picture would get a laugh out of it!

POV
I think the "Scumbag" paragraph is far too POV. Unless it can be NPOVed, it should probably be removed altogether. Also, I haven't yet got around to editing the "Scangers around Ireland" paragraph, since, being a Dubliner, I'm not as well up on the regional variations as others. It could do with some tidying up, and less of a jeering tone. What do you all think? — Doshea3 19:00, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Agree - yeah, go for it. I felt the same way but didn't have the background to make the call (I'm in the US right now). - Pete C &#9997; 22:47, 19 August 2005 (UTC)   (PS - thanks for the note the other day! :-) )


 * Done. (You're welcome, Pete. :) )  In fact, regarding the "Scangers around Ireland" paragraph, I think that it should either be separated into separate sections for every region—say, one for each county.  There's a lot of rubbish in there, too.  After all, we're primarily making an article about scangers: the others require merely anecdotes on this page—anyone with enough material can make their own article, if necessary. — Doshea3 21:16, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Hilariously ridiculous criticism
Despite the fact that an article such as this may excite the bandwagonists and allow them to unleash myriad condemnation along the lines of ‘class snobbery’, most, nonetheless, blatantly miss the point.

The fact that ‘scanger’ is a stereotype is clearly stated throughout the entire article. In no way does this article alledge that the term ‘scanger’ is anything more than a stereotype. Mentioning that ‘scangers are often associated with anti-social behaviour’ is not the same as declaring that ‘all scangers engage in anti-social behaviour’. The accusers of ‘class snobbery’ here clearly insult their own intelligence by going even further to equate ‘scangers are often associated with anti-social behaviour’ with something similar to ‘all nothsiders engage in anti-social behaviour’.

This article serves to describe a stereotype and nothing more. It happens to be a stereotype which many Irish people often encounter in some form or another. But it is nothing more! I can understand that idleness and boredom can leave people with little better to do then complain for the sake of complaining, but this is really just pointless. I am dumfounded that one of the above criticisms accuses the article as being childish for not representing the ‘wider social context of Dublin’s working class’. How, in god’s name, can one expect an article entitled ‘Scangers’ to deal with the dynamics of the socio-economic situation in Ireland! Now who's really being childish?

It’s quite simple, this article is as valid as a ‘poshos’ one, or a ‘D4 girls’ one, or a ‘jock’ one. It attempts to explain a stereotype and best represent the general understanding of its common expression. It does not try to redefine the label to what ‘it should be’ or anything of the sort. To equate a Wikipedia article about ‘scangers’ with one about a less stereotypical, more concrete, acceptable label for a social grouping (such as a geographical one) is the epitome of bandonwagonist ignorance.


 * My thoughts exactly, and very well said. — Doshea3 18:56, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Just sending out a deserved fairplay on the good work being done here to dispel the whole northside = 'impoverished sKangers' / southside = 'wealthy jocks' myth. This is something that should be blatantly obvious to anyone who actually lives in this city, yet the old stereotype seems to be carried by those in the media who either hail from outside The Pale or from a comfortable southside suburb such as Blackrock and are somehow blissfully ignorant of their moustachioed near-neighbours. Although also inappropriate (Castleknock being the most prominent of what is admittedly a small number of exceptions), an east/west division still proves far more accurate. Whilst I acknowledge that not all skangers reside in local authority housing, I would estimate that the vast majority of surplus skangers come from areas in which there exists L.A.H. and certainly hail from standard 'ugly 3-bed semi replicated x 500' style housing estates. As for 'wannabe skangers', I'm not sure their place is in this article. They seem to have no contact with genuine skangers and serve only to intimidate their fellow wealthy jocks, D4 girls, etc. (D4: a sidenote - I would also estimate that the majority of the D4 district's population are in fact resident in the skanger areas of Ringsend and Irishtown) Also, Wannabe Skangers' behaviour seems to be in part a rebellion against the 'big business & sailing' culture imposed upon them by their parents. Another interesting point, (which I expect will encounter alot of criticism!), albeit not entirely relevant, yet to be made about the background of skangers is the influence of parental background. I have found that it is most commonly those in the working classes with at least one parent from the country who tend to progress in education and stray from skanger fashion conventions, etc. Finally, I feel the Beckham haircut and pink t-shirt skangers are inaccurately mistaken for 'upper-class skangers'. These are an emerging breed and I haven't yet sighted one over the age of fourteen. Those I have sighted, have been bona fide inner-city skangers but have indeed been (as their personal style tends to suggest) softer than their old-skool counterparts. I would imagine Wannabe Skangers would attempt to avoid such wardrobe experiments since their primary goal is to imitate the typical conventional hardshaw skanger. From what I've seen this new era in skangerdom is a direct export of British chav-culture. Oh and I forgot to compliment the observation on the hypocrisy of the anti-English skanger who embraces British chav-culture, supports British football teams and has no interest in or knowledge of Irish language, history or tradition! Having made all these observations and having grown up in a skanger-area with skangers, many of whom are still good friends of mine, let me stress that they make ten-times better company than your typical UCD Blackrock rugby jock. These bleached-hair Abercrombie and Fitch-wearing fools are the true scourge of this city! Long may the good work here continue and the sooner the true facts are spelled out to the public-at-large, the better.


 * I suppose this point can be agreed upon to some extent. However skangers are most definitely not a direct export of chav culture... they have many defining characteristics that separate them from chavs.

Juxtaposition of text and picture
A reasonable person could assume that any or all of the traits described in the article are directly applicable to the youths in the picture.

Their features are clearly visible and they could be recognised on the street from this picture.

This could be libellous as - you never know - one of them might have a reputation to defend.

If this were a printed encyclopaedia they could take publishers, editors and distributors to court. What if a potential employer saw it and they didn't get a job?


 * Ah, but then would not an employer be guilty of discrimination against Skangers? --Irishpunktom\talk 11:30, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

MuckSavage
I've removed the term 'Muck Savage' as a synonymn of Scanger. A muck savage refers to a rural dweller such as a farmer or one descended from farming stock, and they are usually honest and hard working - maybe lacking in common pleasantries - they most certainly does not refer to the description of 'scanger' as alluded to in the article.

"A rural dweller...or one descended from farming stock" :-)))

Accurate
There is no way you could possibly write an article like this without sounding a little tongue-in cheek even if it was not intentional. The way scumbags act lends itself to lampooning. The article accurately defines members of this particular social group (possibly socio-economic group). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.206.11.249 (talk • contribs)

Ignorance not Class
This articles, in my own honest opinion, fails to disassociate class from the equation of "scangerness"(scangerosity?). If you are aiming to define a term and thus a social group you should not only define what makes a scanger (as you have done), but also you should eliminate ambiguity by stating what does NOT have a bearing on it. Scangers are ignorant, socially inept, and utterly lacking in taste and/or manners. I think that the article would have a lot more of a good standing if it was made clear that the social standing of a person has nothing to with it, nor does their financial or geographical states. You COULD however point to how those things may lead to their initiation into the scanger world. It could be overkill but some people obviously cannot see the distinction. Diom1982

This is being ruined!
I'm going to get rid of some of the crap that has appeared here. Recent changes lack proper thought. This article is neither factual nor neutral, but it should, nonetheless, avoid crassly posing as such... example:

"Although some would like to be called working class, they are in fact underclass. They are eligible for a maintenance grant in college (much to the envy of the middle classes) but either don't meet the entry requirements for University or choose not to go to University. This is in stark contrast to immigrant families who come to Ireland(who are in the same financial situation). These families start working immediately and within a few years their children are in college and are moving up the economic ladder. Skangers on the other hand will not take the initiative to get themselves out of the economic hole they are in and instead complain about the state not doing everything to change their lives for them.

History

The vast majority of the Irish catholic population were peasants at the start of the century. When the Irish free state was created and the population of the protestant ascendancy class dwindled from 10% to 3% (most moving to Northern Ireland or back to Britain), a power vacuum was created. Economic advancement of the fittest occurred. Over the next 80 years from the foundation of the Free State the most intelligent and ambitious of Ireland's peasant class moved their way up o the upper or middle classes. Sadly and inevitably the lazy scumbags with no initiative stayed at the bottom of the social/economic ladder. Most are not even working class. Usually they have never worked in their entire lives and neither have their parents. Many skangers would surely starve or become big time criminals only for they have the social welfare state to leech off."

This is just stupid and serves only to destroy what this article. Its either a worryingly ignorant claim, or a pathetic attempt at wit. 'Skanger' is a stereotype. Don't treat it as anything more than that. This shouldn't rule out a humorous approach, but the above it not funny. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.248.242 (talk • contribs)

Limerick
I removed the following chunk about Limerick:
 * One troubling difference that Limerick shams have to their Dublin and Cork brethren is their emulation of American gang culture. Due to the popularity of Gangsta rap, many Limerick shams organise themselves into violent street gangs, where possession of a firearm is imperative. These highly territorial youths regularly perform drive-by shootings on rival gangs. Teenagers as young as sixteen are said to have been responsible for a drive by shooting that killed a man in 2002. A 17 year old Limerick gang member was also the only person to ever use an AK-47 automatic rifle in a non-paramilitary instigated Irish crime.

Gun violence in Limerick has very little to do with "emulation of American gang culture" or "territorial youths". The text above gives the impression that the violence in Limerick is simply a more extreme form of "skanger culture" rather than the byproduct of organised crime. --Ryano 11:07, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Limerick
Limerick "scangers" (sic) need a specialised article, scobes.

Removal of non scanger-specific traits
I suggest the removal of the mention of tabloid newspapers (this is where the article tries to stereotype working class people), the mention of rhyming slang. Also, I would like if the article tended towards scangers being defined by their anti-social behaviour rather than something they sometimes do. In stereotype-land, you never meet a nice scanger, but there's lots of lovely people with caps at improbable angles. I'm not trying to sound ironic. Also, I'm trying to figure out why old people refer to scangers as teddy boys. I think this article should be kept, but it still needs a lot of work (scaling down?) --Shane t 01:28, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Knacker Drinking
Should this be described in such a deragtory fashion? Perhaps it should be re-named 'sensible drinking'? Scangers are paying about 1 euro for a can, which probably tastes a lot better than the warm, flat muck people seem too happy to pay over 4 euro for in an packed bar.

The Rubber Bandits Link
Should that be there? I listened to it, and to be quite frank, I thought it was appalling. A very bad pisstake, the accent was very inconsistent, the lad was often lost for words, and resorted to either repeating himself or using foul language. The Jerky Boys they are not.

Burberry
Are skangers really known for wearing Burberry? I can't recall ever having seen one, and I always thought it was much more of a British chav thing...212.2.181.69 02:23, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Skanger
But isn't it spelled "Skanger"?


 * 1. This has already been discussed at length above.


 * 2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no possible bearing on the sound a hard c if k is used


 * 3. Thus, the root of these concerns seems to be a desire to emphasise that the c in scanger is most definitely not soft


 * 4. So it's puerly a matter of correct custom (which th article should, surely, represent)


 * 5. The question that needs to be asked is: do more people spell it with a k?


 * 6. Who knows, who cares, doesn't matter, why even bother considering it?

i don't understand why people are so concerned with the spalling of skanger. one, suggests that it should be spelt, "scanger" rather than "skanger" as "scanger" looks more elegant.... i don't believe skangers to be egegant... i don't think anyone does.... why should the spelling be elegant? the fact remains, that the majority of people spell it "skanger" alreeeeet???

sarah —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.94.244.206 (talk • contribs)

Irish-American Slang
This probably doesn't need to be added to the article, since the article deals with an Irish subculture and I'm talking about Irish-American culture, but I thought it might be interesting none the less. I'm an Irish-American (family came over in 1858, fought for the Union in the Civil War, were free to practice Catholicism, etc., etc.) and we, like all ethno-religious groups, have our own little culture with its own peculiar vernacular, phrases, slang and so on. One of them, similar to "mook," is "skanger." It's different from the Irish version in that it refers to someone who is basically just "white trash" (specifically Irish white trash and not WASP) instead of a member of a specific subculture. However, it's still similar because the average skanger over here would be an uneducated, low-class guy whom smokes pot (constantly), listens to hip-hop, is probably on Welfare and/or SSI and all that jazz. Also, 'skanger' is spelled with a "k" in the US.

Anyway, I just thought you fellas might find it interesting. I, personally, am fascinated by how two nigh-identical words describing the same general concept (white trash) seem to have sprung up independently of each other, as I've heard people described as "skangers" since I was a kid (I'm 22 now). Also, I've never heard the word used by WASPs or any other non-Irish; it seems to be a purely Irish-American thing.

EDITED TO ADD: I forgot to mention this before, but Irish skangers in the US are also strongly identified with drug-dealing, especially prescription meds. A classic skanger would be a guy I know named Jerry who lives on Welfare and Disability and makes money by buying/selling bottles of Vicodin, Xanax, Oxycontin, Percocet, etc., amongst his circle of skanger friends. They all live on the dole on the fringes of society, smoking pot and popping pills. Now that I think of it, they really *are* more of a specific subculture rather than generic Irish white trash, just not a well-defined subculture. ChildeRolandofGilead 20:05, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

edited my previous comment after comments made above made me reconsider

Skangers are cool!!
What a great article!! We really enjoyed reading this - it totally describes the skangers in this area. Whatever you do, do not delete this article - I'm going to email a link to all my friends.

Moved from main article ...
... the following comment;

"This article is unfair, stereotyping people for the way they dress and talk and generally looking down on a class of people that are just as good and bad as the rest of the people in this country." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.1.184.254 (talk • contribs)

Good Article but still pretty POV

 * The Article is very funny but it is still basically a piece of anti-Skanger opinion.
 * Also I'm from Clondalkin and I have never in my life heard the term Skanger used to refer to a man (we would call him a "Scumbag" or "Youngfella" or something), where I live Skanger is only used for Girls (basically Identical to "Slapper"). Actually "Skanger" is not very common at all in my area, we almost always say Scumbag, so Skanger is not universally used which must be emphasized.
 * Also the Accent section is sort-of incorrect in saying that terms like "Story bud?" or "Youz" are only used by "Skangers", almost everybody in Dublin uses at least some of these phrases (except in posh areas of the south side obviously).
 * This Line is not particularly funny, fairly inaccurate and pretty offensive also "This greatly contrasts with that of the alpha male whose mother is likely to have given birth in a post office, thus facilitating the receiving of child benefit at the earliest possible stage." Everybody gets Child benefits this makes it sound like only "Skangers" would get them, I think it should be removed.
 * Just in-case you're wondering, no I don't really consider myself a Skanger or Scumbag but I have grown up with them and most of my friends are at least a little bit like that, surely there must be something positive to be said for them in the article.
 * --Hibernian 05:12, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Scanger vs. knacker
I'm a non-Irish person who has lived in Dublin for the best part of a decade and spent a great deal of time in Dublin's anti-social northside milieu. In my experience the term "knacker" (not in the Irish traveller sense, but in the scanger-ish sense) seems to be much more commonly used than "scanger". Certainly scanger-types seem more likely to refer to other scanger-types as "knackers" than as "scangers". My question: are "knacker" (in the general sense) and "scanger" simple synonyms, or is there a difference? I would even like to see a "knacker vs. scanger" section in the article. Otherwise, great work on this article, though I'd like to see some sources if possible. Babajobu 08:46, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I use Knacker to refer to scangers all the time. I think all scangers are knackers, but not all knackers are scangers, would be a way to put it.--Richy 17:55, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Moving this article to "skanger"
I think we should do it. That would bring it in line with the Indo's usage, and others, and has been suggested by more than one person on this talk page. Unless there is an objection, I'm going to move it. Babajobu 17:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

The neutrality of the article
I am from Lusk, very North of the Liffey, have lived in Arabic countries, and all sorts of other parts of the city; I have shown this article to "bogger" friends, hippies (so to speak), those who would consider themselves to be "proper" Northsiders, and they all agree that pretty much everything the read was accurate, and funny to boot. Sure it seems biasedm but it does accurately desribe those in specific. If you choose to find it amusnig, or choose it to be offensive, that is the opinion part.. not the facts themselves

This article is controversial because of the title and the humorous tone
This article could have been titled "Culture of the Irish Urban Underclass". 'Skanger' could have been listed as a slang term for this group. I live in Dublin and I see the content of the article as sociologically accurate and useful. The humour is OK as wikipedia is meant to be entertaining. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Curtains99 (talk • contribs)
 * A title like "Culture of the Irish Urban Underclass" sounds much more appropriate. I would like to suggest that we formally move it to that (or something similiar). --J a son (talk) 00:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Monk
Moved from main page:

"This is nonsense. The Monk settled wasn't a drug dealer he was an armed robber. he is now retired and drives a Dublin taxi. Anyone with the slightest knowledge of Dublin street life knows that - this Scanger crap is the snobbish fantasy of a South Dublin twit." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.88.147 (talk • contribs)


 * Correct re. The Monk. I've removed this comment from the main article- Ali-oops&#9997; 17:21, 26 March 2006 (UTC) (from North Dublin!)

Delete this drivel from Wikipedia
I read through the Skanger page and didn't find it remotely funny or informative.

In my opinion it's just a typical example of ignorant bar-stool humour. If people feel the need to hurl abuse then they should do so in on-line forums devoted to slanging. An on-line encyclopedia like Wikipedia should not be used as a platform for such rubbish.

A statement such as the following is no way intended to be funny but rather to be very insulting towards those who need social welfare assistance :

"This greatly contrasts with that of the alpha male whose mother is likely to have given birth in a post office, thus facilitating the receiving of child benefit at the earliest possible stage"

The inclusion of this page is an insult to Wikipedia. It should be deleted.

Hobo chang ba 21:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I reformatted the above so it didn't look like seperate section. I agree with the editor. The sentence about being born in a post office a\is total rubbish unless there is some proof of this. So I removed "most likely due to his self-inadequacy and self-pity stemming from an over loving mother and father. This greatly contrasts with that of the alpha male whose mother is likely to have given birth in a post office, thus facilitating the receiving of child benefit at the earliest possible stage." As you can see I also removed the self pity nonsense. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 16:19, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I think that the reason it was mentioned that scangers claim to know the monk is that there was a reference to this in one of the ross o'carroll kelly columns.

Smoking down the back of the Bus
This is a good article, but I am suprised that no mention has been made of what must be one of the scanger's most identifying behavoiurs - smoking down the back of the bus! (and violently threatening anybody who asks them to stop!) Anybody who thinks that the scangers mentioned in this article don't exist or anybody who wants to experience them up-close-and-personal need only hop on any Dublin bus and head upstairs towards the blue cloud at the back!


 * Preferably the 17A! - Ali-oops&#9997; 20:16, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

This is not appropriate for wikipedia, there are no sources and the article should be removed,