Talk:Schutzstaffel/Archive 1

Jewish Participation
Information coming from Daryl Bradford Smith, Silski Visti and others suggests a Jewish participation in the SS, and the subjugation and persecution of Jews in order to aid Zionism. Any ideas?

I do not know who these Smith or Silki, but it is hediously obvious that they neo-nazi vermins of the lowest order and their views are reflective of this. There could have been no Jewish participation in the ss.

"SS" an English word?
For better or worse "SS" is the English word. User:Fredbauder

"Murderous thugs"?
Surely we could think of something more descriptive than 'murderous thugs'.

cprompt


 * Hmmm. I don't think it's accurate either.  It gives the impression that they were an ill-disciplined rabble.  Whatever else they were (and they were many repugnant things), I thought that as troops they were militarily effective. --Robert Merkel 05:58 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * Good call. I've focused in on that. "Murderous thugs" seems like a loaded phrase, so I replaced it with a reference to their cutthroat reputation.
 * --cprompt


 * How is "militarily effective" or "well-disciplined" incompatible with "murderous thugs"? We can accept that they were very effective at murdering and brutalizing their victims, as well as in their military role. Let's not whitewash the SS in the name of NPOV. -- The Anome 17:50 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * I think the connotation of the word "thug" is lack of discipline. Hence using the word "thug" in this article would be misleading. See also Theodor Eicke Andries 21:16, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Mass executions
Another point - wasn't the SS the orgnisation that actually carried out the mass executions in the concentration camps? If so, this should be explicitly pointed out in the article. --Robert Merkel 03:30 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

US Secret Service link
I will remove the link to the US secret service. I don't understand the relationship with the SS. Please let me know if I miss something. Andries 19:26, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * the acronym is SS. Same with Selective Service. Although I think it is a humorous analogy to put on the page, it doesn't stand up to wikipedia standards so I agree it should be removed.

209,000 members?
''On January 6, 1929 Hitler appointed Heinrich Himmler as the leader of the SS, which then had only 280 people among its ranks. With Hitler's approval Himmler built up the SS and by the end of 1932 the SS already had 52,000 members. After only a year the SS had over 209,000 members.''

Seemingly self-contradictory text. Did it take three years to reach a membership of 52,000, or did it take one year to reach a membership of 209,000? I'm guessing the writer intended to say "After an additional year, the SS had over 209,000 members" or "By the end of 1933, the SS had over 209,000 members." I'm not changing this immediately, but I might soon. --Yath 22:15, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * A small note to the member numbers of the SS: It is correct already that Heinrich Himmler took over the SS 1929 with only 280 members. He removed however this party organization purposefully, already in December 1925 had the SS already 1,000 of members. During the so-called "seizure of power" of Hitler (1933) it possessed already approximately 52,000 members, opposite 350,000 SA members. In the time between March and December 1933 so many new members occurred the SS, which ordered Heinrich Himmler an attitude stop for the duration of 2 years and a "reduction" for now 209,000 the members strong SS... over 60,000 SS members became until 1935 again from the SS to dismiss! (if necessary I supply later gladly the sources concerning the numbers of members, am naturally natural.) Love of greetings Postmann Michael 02:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

ODESSA = nonsense
Can somebody please give references for the existence for ODESSA. Otherwise I will remove it. I think ODESSA is just nonsense. SS men had a reunion once, I believe, but that is all and hence of very minor importance. Andries 22:06, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * ODESSA what better reference than here? I've seen it cited in many professional works on the SS. Nagelfar 00:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the following
The following is partially untrue and unreferenced, uninformative cliches:
 * The SS evolved into a highly effective and deadly force during World War II. At its peak, its name and reputation for efficient and terrifying violence was enough to strike fear into the heart of anyone.

It is untrue because I guess many Germans were happy to see the SS, not all of course. Besides the Waffen SS was criticized because of its high percentage of victims in comparison to the Wehrmacht. This indicates a lack of efficiency. Source: Hoehne Andries 22:11, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

High percentage of victims? Do you mean battle casualties? Because that doesnt mean they are inefficient, because Waffen SS were sent where the fighting was thickest, and often spearheaded attacks. This combined with thier smaller size compared to the Wehrmacht leads to higher casualty rates, they were a highly trained, capable fighting unit. Apologies if this is not what you meant.--SGGH 22:21, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Organizational structure
Added organizational structure. I hate to see so many red links... let's get some stubs in for those names! --Jstalin 00:31, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thugs
--Tomtom 13:57, 26 Jul 2004
 * 1. The SS was responsible for many reprehensible acts in the name of German Glory, any attempt to turn them into a pure military force is pure wishful thinking. They had an agenda as well as a military purpose. While they originally did recruit volunteers and formed several original divisions from these troops, the bulk of their later forces were concripted and even included patent non-Germans. These units consisted of many volunteer legions of auxiliaries and while they committed many atrocites, so did the older core units.
 * 2. The black full dress uniform was replaced early in the war to deal with perception problem that the SS was not a military organization, Himmler introduced a grey uniform similar to the black uniform in cut and style. The Black uniforms then being turned in for issue to other SS organizations. The remaining black uniformed personnel were increasingly looked upon as shirkers in the later part of the war. The grey-green field uniform was only worn by the Waffen SS while the TkVb wore greenish brown uniforms.
 * 3. The American SIS(Special Intelligence Service), an undercover organization of the FBI, which operated in South America during World War Two, did prove the existense of the ODESSA organization and later investigations by the US Justice Department's Office of Special Investigations uncovered more about ODESSA and several other SS "associations" FOIA requests to either the FBI or Justice Dept will provide this information. Additionally the various South American security services have provided much information to US, UN, Mossad, German BKA and BfS and others varifying the activities of the ODESSA and other similar organizations.
 * 4. Must we continue to glorify the military exploits of the Waffen SS and completely ignore the grossly criminal activites of the entire organization? How long long will we continue to glorify the military prowess of this private army? They were no better than the SA they just had more political pull and were albe to nearly subvert Germany.
 * 5. I removed the elite moniker from the first sentance in the first paragraph. What made them elite? They were no better trained than the army, they received better equipment later on and never changed their TOE to adapt to the war. Several of their earlier divisions, 1st thru 12th, with some of the later ones, fought harder and more fanatically. What about the remaining ones? The Foreign Legions, esp those of non-Germans. These private armies within a private army were mediocre at best. The Heer fielded many superior units to the SS, ie all the Panzer and Panzer Grenadier divisions. How about GrossDeutchland? PanzerLehr? We won't even go into the 16 to 20 Parachute divisions. What made the SS elite, again I ask you?
 * 6. We need to stop revising their history, they were what they were, an organized bunch of thugs who were a discrace to their's and any other uniforms.

TomTom, the grossly criminal activites of the entire organization? You obviously haven't got the slightest clue about the Waffen SS have you? Do you get your information from children's comics? The entire organisation? Don't be so ridiculous! Are you talking about the Waffen SS tank drivers? or maybe the divisional doctors and medical staff saving the lives of their own men and the enemy too, or could it be you're refering to the many divisional cooks? Because it's a terrible crime to make goulash and sausages isn't it?!! Or is it the engineers that are the terrible criminals? What about the young men that were killed after just a few days and weeks of their front line duty. Are they the criminals you're refering too? Stop talking a load of rubbish. For you to collectively damn hundreds of thousands of men is a mockery to most people's intelligence. 21st February 2006. Detmold.


 * Hello TomTom, I would be interested in references about ODESSA. The German TV station ZDF denies that it was a major contributor to the escape of SS men, thought it admits that there had been one meeting under that name by ex-SS men. Andries 16:57, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Course they did, have many crimes and atrocities to cover up or deny. FOIA DOJ Reading Room.Or SIS studies at NARA>--Tomtom 18:27, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Hello TomTom, I don't want to start a grudge-match here, but I believe you are skewing history in your above comments. Many fighting units of the Waffen-SS were military units only and indeed their commanders were horrified, when after 1943 the Totenkopf units were integrated into the Waffen-SS that thusly indeed had KZ-thugs in their ranks. It should also be noted, that some of the best Panzer and Panzergrenadier-Battalione WERE indeed Waffen-SS units. Indeed did any SS Panzer-Divison have 15 instead of 10 Panzergrenadier-Companies, the Panzer-Regiments of the Division were almost twice the size of those in the regular Heer, and also had and additional Pionier (Engineer) Bataillon, two bridge companies, and a Mörser-Bataillon (Heavy mechanized mortar).
 * Further, any of the SS-Panzer-Divisionen had special "schwere Panzer Abteilungen" (heavy tank task forces) that were mechanized in the fabeld Tiger- and Königstiger-Tanks, easily the most powerful and sophistcated tank of WWII. I trust that made a lot of the Waffen-SS units "elite".


 * Finally I would like to note, that the Waffen-SS never wore the infamous black SS-Uniforms. As the precursor of the Waffen-SS the "Verfügungstruppe" began to emerge, they received their uniforms from Wehrmacht stock, and only some trim-elements were modified, mainly the drab-olive collar was replaced with a battleship gray (feldgrau) or black one.


 * As for your final "thug" comment: The Federal Republic of Germany's first chancellor Konrad Adenauer - who was persecuted by the Nazis himself - famously defended the honor of the German soldier on Dec. 3, 1952 in the Deutscher Bundestag and explicitly included "members of the Waffen-SS, provided they only fought honorably as soldiers for Germany". There certainly were thugs in the Waffen-SS, but they were a minority, albeit a monstrous one.
 * (legalalien, 27. November 2005 )

uhuh Konrad Adenauer also famously had an advisor called globke who was one of the people that devised the nuremberger race laws (he wrote the commentary), Adenauer wanted to turn the page. postwar germany did not very well with reflecting about the recent history. your last comment is a really weird one. i hope it is not people like you that shape this article trueblood 11:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC) Discussion with Wernher moved to Talk:Waffen-SS, where it belongs.

What made the SS elite?
This would have to be checked, but I read somewhere that SS members were selected partially on eugenics grounds, for example, they were required to have good teeth, and presumably other desirable characteristics. Fred Bauder 15:53, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)

I find the following language at http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-03/tgmwc-03-23-07.html "its members are to be selected by the Reichsfuehrer S.S. according to the philosophical and political standards"; "Today at last is the longed for day of the entrance examinations where the examiners and physicians decide whether or not the candidate is ideologically and physically qualified to do service in the Waffen S.S."; "Ideologically and racially, its members were selected in conformity with S.S. standards."; I now turn to the underlying philosophy of the S.S., the principles by which its members were selected and the obligations imposed upon them. To understand this organisation, the theories upon which it was based must be kept clearly in mind. They furnish the key to all its activities. It is necessary, therefore, to consider them in some detail.

The fundamental principle of selection was what Himmler called that of Blood and Elite. The S.S. was to be the living embodiment of the Nazi doctrine of the superiority of Nordic blood-the carrying into effect of the Nazi conception of a master race. To put it in Himmler's own words, the S.S. was to be a " National Socialist Soldier Order of Nordic Men ". In describing to the Wehrmacht the reasons behind his emphasis on'racial standards of selection and the manner in which they were carried out he said-and I quote from our Document 1992-A-PS, Page I of the translation, last paragraph, Page 138, paragraph I of the original: "Accordingly, only good blood, blood which history has proved to be leading and creative and the foundation of every State and of all military activities, only Nordic blood, can be considered. I said to myself that, should I succeed in selecting from the German people for this organisation as many people as possible a majority of whom possess this desired blood, in teaching them military discipline and, in time, the understanding of the value of blood and the entire ideology which results from it, then it will be possible actually to create such an elite organisation as would successfully hold its own in all cases of emergency."; "They are very thoroughly examined and checked. Of 100 men we can use on the average 10 or 15, no more. We ask for the political record of his parents, brothers and sisters, the record of his ancestry as far back as 1750, and naturally the physical examination and his

[Page 140] record from the Hitler Youth. Further, we ask for a eugenic record showing that no hereditary disease exists in his parents or in his family."; "The very essence of this organisation was that of race. Its racial standards of selection had two purposes: One, to make it an organisation which would be an aristocracy not only for Germany, but which would be in a position to dominate all of Europe. For that purpose, not only were strict racial standards imposed for selection, but a great drive was made to perpetuate the S.S. stock, to build up a group of men who would be in a position to take over Europe when it was conquered.

There was nothing questionable about that aim. Himmler explicitly said time and time again: " What we are after is to make ourselves the super-class which will be able to dominate Europe for centuries." That was one of the fundamental purposes of the S.S., and it was a purpose which was not kept by Himmler to himself, but a purpose which was explained and publicly announced again and again. "; ""Selection of Members.

For the fulfilment of these missions a homogeneous, firmly welded fighting force has been created bound by ideological oaths, whose fighters are selected out of the best Aryan humanity.

The conception of the value of the blood and soil serves as directive for the selection for the S.S. Every S.S. man must be deeply imbued

[Page 141] with the sense and essence of the National Socialist Movement. He will be ideologically and physically trained so that he can be employed individually or in groups in the decisive battle for the National Socialist ideology.

Only the best and thoroughbred Germans are suited for commitment in this battle. Therefore it is necessary that an uninterrupted selection is maintained within the ranks of the S.S., first superficially, then more and more thoroughly."; ""Obedience is unconditionally demanded. It arises from the conviction that the National Socialist ideology must reign. He who possesses it and passionately supports it, submits himself voluntarily to the compulsion of obedience. Therefore, the S.S. man is prepared to carry out blindly every order which comes from the Fuehrer or is given by one of his superiors, even if it demands the greatest sacrifice of himself." There are stated the two fundamental principles of the S.S. (i) Racial selection; (2) Blind obedience."

Anyway, the point of all these quotes (from the transcript of the Nuremburg trials) point to the truth that the SS was intended to be an elite unit, according to Nazi notions of what constituted an elite. Fred Bauder 16:15, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)

Here's a cite to the good teeth point: http://pub133.ezboard.com/fpanzer4520frm10.showMessage?topicID=38.topic and also more on the topic. Fred Bauder 16:24, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)

SS elite? B.S. Just because the SS set their own unrealistic racial standards and called themselves elite, doesn't make them so. A drunk driver calling himself sober doesn't make him sober. No matter what their intent, the SS, to include all other SS branches was a degenerate organization which history has shown to be an organized group of thugs. Trying to keep the Waffen SS separate from the rest of the organization is denial in the worst sense. That they were "only following orders" is wrong no matter how you shape the tree. You can not exclude the atrocities committed by all elements of the SS and try to say they were just soldiers. They were not. They try to portray themselves as just soldiers in the way the Soviet Border Guards try to distance themselves from the KGB. They are collectively guilty of warcrimes and crimes against humanity. Like trying to explain US Civil War battlefields without trying to explain why their was a civil war. Slavery, states rights, violations of the basic tenents of democracy. The reason is why they fought. They were soldiers in a bad cause who committed crimes against humanity in its name. They were not elite, they were criminals in uniform who deserve their criminal title as opposed to soldierly identity. They were part of a failed syst, the army of of a flawed ideology, thus theey are what they are no matter what they may have accomplished on the battlefield. --Tomtom 01:41, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Most "elites" are not elite. You need go no further than the "crowned heads of Europe". Fred Bauder 12:50, Aug 10, 2004 (UTC)


 * I think that this particular thread of discussion highlights the major philosophical underpinning of the SS and WWII. The SS was to be the new "philosopher kings", a modern attempt at instituting Plato's Republic, and the latest incarnation of Sparta.  Quite frankly, I don't see how or why violating "the basic tenants of democracy" is even discussed. How could the original author of this thread think democracy was at all relevant?  The SS was fighting, ultimately, against democracy for the same reasons Plato condemned it.  What is most distubing when I read such blatantly pro-democratic propaganda is the fundamental flaws of democracy remain intact.  Can Tomtom even detail Plato's criticisms of democracy? Or Hitler's?  Anti-democracy is a valid position, and has been since human civilization was first created.


 * And I suppose that the British traitors who joined the British Free Corps were of "only good blood" and "philosopher kings". From the BFC article: 'Asked why the BFC remained rife with problems and short of recruits despite opportunities like this, he summed it up that the core base of the BFC were "poor types", which contributed to a lack of any respect for the BFC from the start'. It seems that when needs must the Devil drives. -- Philip Baird Shearer 20:17, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Please help to copy and translate and from German version
The German version is very good, imo and extensive so let we save us work by translating and copying. Andries 18:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Great idea. Sam [Spade] 18:53, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's very thorough indeed. -- The Anome 19:24, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Other SS departments
We need to make sure we cover the following SS departments:

-Joseph 19:46, 2004 Aug 28 (UTC)
 * Kripo
 * Orpo
 * Sipo


 * I agree but they comprise the Gestapo, I think, I have to check. Andries 16:36, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Were they? I thought they were all four departments within the SS, and not subordinate to the Gestapo. -Joseph 16:52, 2004 Aug 30 (UTC)


 * I have it here in the unsurpassed book by Heinz Hoehne


 * SD=SD inland/Germany+ SD ausland/Abroad
 * Sipo (Sicherheitspolizei=Kripo(Kriminalpolizei)+Gestapo
 * Orpo (Ordnungspolizei)=??
 * Andries 17:04, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Weren't all of those subordinate organizations of the RSHA? --64.186.55.162 16:21, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Not just a POV sentence but I have to admit that it needs to be referenced
Someone removed the following sentence that I had inserted becaus s/he thought that it was POV.
 * "The German public admired the discipline of the discipline of the SS, especially when compared with the SA who committed random violence."

I read this somewhere in Hoehne's book and some other sources. I will try to find a more accurate reference. The sentence was probably too strong worded One of the reason for the general support of the knight of the long knives is that the German public abhorred the open, random violence and the lack of discipline of the SA. I read this in several articles. Again, I will try to find a reference. Andries 14:17, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I don't think that sentence is POV. I think it is important to understand how the German public viewed the SS. -Joseph (Talk) 14:51, 2004 Sep 29 (UTC)

Page move Nov 2004
(from WP:RM)

SS -> Schutzstaffel
I don't know why this hasn't been done (or was undone). Currently there is a whole mess of confusing redirects and moves to and from SS, SS (Nazi), and SS (disambiguation). Article should be Schutzstaffel, SS should be a disambig, and links to the disambig should be fixed -- Paul Richter 11:00, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Object - why should SS be moved? If I looked up SS, I would expect an article on the Schutzstaffel, with a disambiguation link to other meanings of SS (like steamship, etc); Schutzstaffel redirects to SS, so people find the right article; SS (Nazi) and S.S. seems a bit of overkill (actually, S.S. should probably redirect to steamship, no?), but redirects are free, so that is not a problem, is it? -- ALoan (Talk)
 * And if I looked up SS I would expect to find an article on steamships, with a disambiguation link to other meanings of SS (like Schutzstaffel, etc). Gdr 02:32, 2004 Nov 7 (UTC) P.S. Seriously, when you look up "SS" in Google, none of the first twenty hits refers to the Shutzstaffel. (Secretary of State, Solar System, Social Security, Steamship all appear in the top twenty.)
 * And if I looked up SS, I'd expect to find a straight disambiguation page since I know that the abbreviation has multiple meanings, even if some are better known than others. That we all have different expectations is highly amusing. Bearcat 22:28, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Agree with move - SS should definitely be a disambig, as the above discussion makes abundantly clear. sjorford 11:18, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Undecided. SS is definitely most frequently a reference to Schutzstaffel, but it is often used to refer to social security, secret service, etc. -Joseph (Talk) 12:47, 2004 Nov 10 (UTC)

Given that it was 3/1/1 on WP:RM, I did the move and since 10 November SS has been a redirect to SS (disambiguation), and the article that was at SS has been here at Schutzstaffel. However, I am open to moving it back again if there is a consensus: most of the links to SS are clearly about the SS (the Schutzstaffel). -- ALoan (Talk) 10:58, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think SS should redirect to Schutzstaffel; while other things are occasionally abbreviated as "S.S." the Schutzstaffel is almost always called "SS". I bet most people don't even know what SS stands for, they just use SS as the name. Besides, taking a glance at "what links here" for this page shows hundred of articles, and it seems just about all of them are meant to link to the Schutzstaffel. So unless someone wants to go and pipe all those links there, I think we should let a disambiguation page do it for them. There's still a note at the top for SS (disambiguation) for those who are looking for the other meaning. -R. fiend 00:16, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * As a major contirbutor to this article, it is my vote to leave the title alone and let the disambig page take care of those who dont know what it stands for. The point about the internet is very valid...a websearch for SS gives 20-50 other topics before it hits Schitzstaffel.  Also, saying readers will not know what it stands for is not valid for causing a page move.  My final thought is, as a Navy man, I think SS stands for "sailing ship".  But I also know it stands for Schutzstaffel.  Leaving the disamib page is what we should do Husnock 18Nov 04


 * While I see your point, I think it's something of a matter of what people will look for, and how they'll look for it. Anyone looking for "Social Security", "shortstop" or "Secret Service" is going to type in those words, while I bet at least 95% od the people looking for "Schutzstaffel" will type "SS". The google search, I think, is a bit misleading. Google will direct you to the most commonly sought page first, not the most common use of the term you type in. I'm sure there are tons of articles on Social Security that rank alot higher than pages on the Schutzstaffel, but that doesn't mean they're referred to more as "SS". Besides, the first google hit I get brings up form SS - 5, hardly the first thing anyone is going to think of when the SS is brought up. While SS does come up for "Sailing Ship" quite a bit, these letters never seem to stand on their own, and are always followed by the name of the ship in question (and "sailing ship isn't even mentioned on this disambig page; it gives the prefix as an abbreviation for "steamship"). And I still maintain that the best argument for redirection is that I see almost zero links to the disambigation page that were not meant for Schutzstaffel (and there are hundreds of them). That should speak to how much more common the use of SS is in this case than any other. (and as I final note I get Schutzstaffel as the 8th page in a google search). -R. fiend 18:24, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

List of Personnel
I'm putting on the table to idea of moving the list of notable personnel to its own separate article in prep for some massive expansion. Some thing like: List of SS Personnel Thoughts? -Husnock 23 Nov 04

Black Uniform -Allgemeine SS
Reading: ''Before 1932, the SS wore the same uniform as the SA, except for a black tie and a black cap with a skull symbol on it (Totenkopf, "death's head"). Later they adopted a black uniform and then, just before the war, a dove grey uniform. The Waffen or armed SS wore a field grey uniform similar to the Reichsheer. '' I am not sure but despite the general change, didn't the Allgemeine SS continue to wear the black uniform? Dainamo 22:47, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * The pure part-time mustering formations within Germany did, but full time Allgemeine-SS, like the Gestapo, SD, and Headquarters staff, wore the grey uniform. I will probably alter the article to reflect that or put this in the Allgemeine-SS article which is long due for expansion -Husnock 2Dec04

Jesuit Order
I noticed that at the start of the article it says that the SS was based on the Praetorian Guards. This is incorrect the uniform and ethos of the SS was based by Himmler largely on the Jesuit Order. -User:Holden 27

If you read the entire article, you will see in the development section that the Jesuit's are specifically mentioned as are several other groups. As far as the Roman connection, the Nazis themselves admited this, and stated very clearly that the Reich was an extension of the old Roman concepts. The Standards used by the SS and SA were also based on Roman Legions -Husnock 31 Dec 04


 * With respect to the contributor, if you state that Himmler's expansion of the SS was modelled on the Jesuite Order, you have 1. to explain in detail what you mean by this statement, and 2. give some kind of evidence. Please mind: The SS was one of the most criminal organization in world history which in deed murdered millions of people. Please be sensitive when you put such an organization in one sentence along with some very different organization, a religious order (whatever else you might think about Jesuits). And just because the SS liked aspects of the Jesuites, does NOT mean they were similar. Thank you.


 * My POV is that Wolff is a problematic source, and I think to quote him gives readers a chance to form their own opinion what credibility the words of such a man have. NPOV of article is secured. Thank you very much for providing the source. 84.189.113.31 18:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)mroo

Untersturmführer Article
I invite everyone interested in this page to check out the new article on the rank of Untersturmführer. It is well put together (if I dont say so myself) and contains some pretty neat pictures. I have a thought to try and pit it down as a "Did you Know" article but who knows what vandals will attack it if an SS related article is on the Main page. Any thoughts? Opinions about the article are welcome. Thanks! -Husnock 15Jan05


 * Followup to this...I went ahead and put it on "Did you Know?". Bring on the vandals.  Everytime a Nazi fact goes up there, people seem to go through the roof.  Its only history! -Husnock

Requested move Feb 2005
This article has been renamed as the result of a move request.

I'm changing my proposal (if a may) to address the concerns about consistency in the naming of the Nazi articles, but still having SS go straight to Schutzstaffel. I believe this is what Michael Z proposed below. This will still have all the current links to the disambig page go without having to pipe them. Thsi changes a few of the rationale I listed below; ignore the ones that no longer apply. -R. fiend 00:50, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This is actually a request for a move back to where the article existed before. It was moved some months ago with few votes on it. I believe the name SS is better for several reasons. I hope I've made my point. Obviously there would be a header at the top linking to a SS (disambiguation) page. If it is voted to be kept where it is I ask as a courtesy that those who oppose the move will help disamibguate a few of links to the current SS page. I won't feel like doing it all myself. -R. fiend 21:52, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) The current title violates Wikipedia naming comentions, which state that the title should be "what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize." Everyone calls the Schutzstaffel the "SS". I doubt most people even know what SS stands for, but they know what the SS is.
 * 2) There must be more than a hundred links to the current SS dab page, and, as far as I call tell, almost 100% of them are meant to link to Schutzstaffel.
 * 3) At this stage, the organization is basically called the SS. All the other things on the SS page are mere abbreviations. People don't search for "social security", "short stop", "swallow sidecar", etc. by typing in "SS"; they type in their names. Not so with Schutzstaffel. Even those who know what it stands for will likely search for it as "SS".
 * 4) An argument against it being listed under "SS" was based on the most popular google results. Google searches don't rank by common useage, but by most popular pages. When I google SS my top result is listed because "ss" appears in the web address itself. Hardly terribly relevent; and I doubt most people typing "SS" in an encyclpedia search are looking for the California Secretery of State. The most common result from text in a page is for form SS - 5. Is that it's most popular use?
 * 5) For what it's worth, the other reference books I have seem to all list it under "SS".


 * OBJECTION. All the Nazi Germany articles are consistent, be it Sturmabteilung (the SA), the Sicherheitsdienst (the SD), or Volkssturm, or Kraft durch Freude (the KdF), or the other alphabet-soup agencies of the Third Reich.  All the people I know know what SS means (not that they necessarily can translate Schutzstaffel, but they know what it is)...which must mean the folks (god love them) are dumb wherever you are.  The redirects work fine, as people who type in SS get redirected there anyway through the disambiguation (and people do use SS for social security too often).  It is also consistent for acronym government agencies to be redirected or disambiguated to the full name, as CIA redirects to Central Intelligence Agency, "DEA" to a disambiguation page that leads to Drug Enforcement Agency, FBI to Federal Bureau of Investigation, MI6 and SIS to its official name the Secret Intelligence Service (MI5 is the black sheep). This is a major league waste of our time as there is no pressing need to move these, and there are too many alternative English language uses for SS that dedicating SS to just the Schutzstaffel in light of consistency and the overwhelming need for disambiguation is utterly ridiculous. —ExplorerCDT 22:12, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, most of my friends are stupid. That's it. Those who have a substantial interest in WWII know what it is, but somehow it's not terribly important to the others. I wonder why? Now what is more of a "major league" waste of time, taking a minute to register a vote on the move, or piping "Schutzstaffel" into a couple hundred links all over wikipedia? Are you going to help with the latter? -R. fiend 22:41, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for a nice out-of-context cutting and pasting of my conversation regarding your other proposed move (your aborted attempt to move Schutzstaffel to SS which you have since removed) which is deliberately deceptive on your part (make me appear as though I'd oppose a sensible move by moving my comments to somewhere it didn't apply). I'd support this incarnation of your request contingent on there being a disclaiming header pointing to SS (disambiguation). —ExplorerCDT 16:36, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * What the fuck are you talking about? I didn't cut or paste any part of anything you've written. I merely changed my proposal at the top to what I consider a decent compromise. I announced it was a change, and it was based on what other's objections. Since yours was the first objection it was pretty clear that the altered proposal came after you had written your spiel. Try not to fly off the handle already. -R. fiend 18:36, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * There. I've even added a break to show which votes refer to the old proposal and which to the new. Hope you're happy now. -R. fiend 18:41, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect SS → Schutzstaffel. Simple compromise, satisfies some of both sides' concerns. —Michael Z. 2005-02-20 22:40 Z 
 * I would support this as well: SS → SS (disambiguation), and make SS a redirect to Schutzstaffel. Dab header at the top of Schuztstaffel for those who came their via SS (as I imagine many would do). -R. fiend 22:54, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. SS should be a primary disambig page with the SchutzStaffel as its primary topic. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 22:43, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Object SS (disambiguation) does a very fine job of listing what every possible abbreviation should stand for. Also, this argument that "most people dont know what SS stands for and thats why we should move it" is pretty weak.  A lot of eduated people in the english speaking world are very interested that SS does mean Schutzstaffel.  And, all arguments aside, Schutzstaffel that IS the name of the group.  We open up a door here to move and change every Third Reich article from SD, SA, and many others.  Lets leave everything alone and as it is.  The article titles are fine the way that they are. -Husnock 20Feb05


 * Note: Original comments above this line refer to initial proposal to move Schutzstaffel to SS (although a few responses have come after). Below are for the new proposal to redirect SS to Schutzstaffel. Please add new posts below.
 * Support redirect SS → Schutzstaffel. Jordi·✆ 12:22, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Support redirect SS → Schutzstaffel. Guettarda 16:27, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. zoney ♣ talk 17:08, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This is just as often social security, secret service, or an abbreviation for semis, to say nothing of steamships, sworn statements, and saints.  While the overwhelming majority of wikilinks will indeed be for the Schutzstaffel, a great many people turn to the encyclopedia when looking up unknown acronyms.  A.D.H. (t&m) 19:31, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * Support When I hear "Es Es", I don't think of any of those other things, but he disambiguation notice at Schutzstaffel takes care of them. —Michael Z. 2005-02-21 20:54 Z 
 * Support, although I'd much prefer just moving Schutzstaffel to SS. This is much the most common usage, and I can guarantee you that the vast, vast majority of English speakers have no idea what SS stands for. Hell, the vast, vast majority of English-speakers don't even know what the SS was to begin with.  But even of those who do know, I can't imagine that more than a tiny percentage are actually aware of what it is the German acronym for. john k 03:42, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Support redirecting SS. -Sean Curtin 03:12, Feb 26, 2005 (UTC)