Talk:Science fiction Western/Archive 1

Links in Child Articles
It would be great if someone more knowledgeable about anime than I am could put a link to this article on the pages of Cowboy Bebop, et cetera. &mdash;Josiah Rowe 08:36, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Cowboy Bebop isn't even really a Sci-fi Western. Only it's name and a few select themes during the series would make it qualify, and those are far and few between. It's actually more noir, with blues and jazz hipster themes prevailing. Outlaw Star qualifies all around far more. Ereinion  03:34, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Order of Television list
I'm in wonderment concerning how the list for television is arranged.. Since I have two examples from Star Trek: Enterprise and Sliders, but uncertain as to wherein to place it. DrWho42 22:52, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The list was originally supposed to be roughly chronological. Legend and the '80s cartoons were then added to the end, and never put in order — until now.  Go ahead and put your Enterprise and Sliders examples in, wherever they fit in the chronology. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:32, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Rename to Space Western?
Outland, for example, may seem at first to not fit into a Space Western category, but consider this definition: "A Space Western transposes themes of American western books and film to a backdrop of futuristic space frontiers. The genre supposes that the future of space exploration and settlement will be much like the taming of the old west in the United States of America. The Space Western view of the future is only one of many ways to look at spreading civilization to 'the final frontier'. Authors like Raymond Kurzweil, for instance, assert that humans will evolve past the need for rocket ships and in the near future. An article belongs in this category if it has the theme of an American Western frontier story, but switches the backdrop outer space — from 'frontier towns' to 'outlying planets,' for example."
 * *Peace Inside 18:23, 15 January 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that space Westerns are a subset of science fiction Westerns, albeit a large and notable subset (just as science fiction set in space is a large and notable subset of science fiction). As I mentioned at the AfD, the term "Space Western" excludes examples like Westworld and Back to the Future Part III, which combine Western elements with science fiction tropes other than space travel. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:43, 15 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we are trying to put too much into one concept. Shows like Westworld and Back to the Future Part III are science fiction stories with a Western backdrop while Space Westerns are frontier stories with rocket ships in place of wagon trains and outlying planets in place of frontier towns. The two concepts are actually polar opposites. It may be impossible to use the term in any meaningful way if such a broad categorization were implicit in its meaning. Maybe it would be better to divide the concept of "elements of both the science fiction and Western genres" into two categories:
 * A Science fiction Western is a story about the future implications of science told in a Western setting
 * A Space Western is a frontier story indicative of American Westerns, except transposed to a backdrop of space exploration and settlement
 * What do you think about that idea? *Peace Inside 23:36, 15 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm... I see what you're saying about the tension between the two ideas. And I certainly see the difference between, say, Westworld (essentially a science fiction story with a few Western trappings) and Outland (essentially a Western with science fiction trappings).  But a story like Back to the Future Part III partakes equally from both genres (Marty McFly, calling himself "Clint Eastwood", plays the stranger who comes to town and has to set injustice to rights, etc.).  The division you propose would also be problematic for something like Serenity, which is clearly a "space Western" in its setting and origin (the characters are largely Western types, such as the Confederate veteran trying to find a new cause to believe in), but also has at its core a very science fiction parable about the use of centralized power to "make people better".  Insofar as the Reavers are a wild, unreasoning threat, they're obviously filling the role of Indians in old-style Westerns, but their origins as victims of an Alliance behavior modification experiment gone wrong is classic science fiction.  So even though Serenity is set in space with a boatload of Western story elements, it's also got strong elements (such as the character of River) which are about the future implications of science, rather than anything about the American frontier.


 * Now, it may be that there's more literature on the "Space Western" side of things than on other aspects of this combination of genres. It's clear that more research is required to find citations and external sources on this subject.  And if it turns out that all notable external sources are really talking about space Westerns, and excluding other cross-genre examples, then maybe the article should be moved to space Western.  But if there are worthwhile things to be said about the uses of the two genres in relation to each other, then perhaps the article should stay where it is.


 * In any case, the distinction you're drawing is worth mentioning in the article, especially if we can find outside sources to back the distinction up. It seems like common sense to me, but given the AfD nomination we should err on the side of sourcing. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 01:22, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that sourcing is essential for something like this that can be easily misunderstand because of missing cowboy hats or such. Regarding "Back to the Future III," there is nothing keeping it from belonging to both categories. *Peace Inside 01:42, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I just said so on the AfD page, but I think that the articles Space western and Influence of Western on science fiction could both be valid articles (the latter discussing shows that are not strictly speaking sci-fi westerns but show the influence. The discussion above about Back to the future III is still problematic, especially since I think Space western is probably a sub-genera of sci-fi western but it is also about 95% of everything that could be called a sci-fi western.  That is to say without the space western I don’t think sci fi western would be notable enough for inclusion. Dalf | Talk 21:55, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I think your idea for naming it Space western is the best I have heard yet. I've been watching this page and decided out of all the possibilities, that would be a great name. --Blindingly Glowing 16:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


 * At current, the article says the story must be set in the American West and have science fiction themes. As much, the Firefly TV series does not really fit, because though it looks like a version of the American Old West, they're all small planets or moons, not just western towns - heck, technically speaking, the REAL old west no longer exists in that world, since Earth was abandoned. Plus, several episodes revolve mostly around events on the ship. It's therefore more of a "Space Western" by this definition - of course, that's assuming that people OTHER than the poeple who created the article(s) use it in the way the articles indicate they are used - while "Space Western" is certainly a hybrid subgenre of both Sci-Fi and Westerns, "Science Fiction Western" sounds (and I imagine would sound to most other people) to be broad enough to include the Space Western as well. I agree with the Merge idea - the Space Western sounds more like a subgenre of the Science Fiction Western than a completely seperate genre. The article can still make a distinction between the two terms without being effectively split in two. As for Firefly's sequel film, Serenity, that one doesn't even have horses - it's very much a Space Western, and does not quite fit the current definition of Science Fiction Western, either, even less so than Firefly.


 * So, how's this sound: we merge the two articles, and either keep the term "science fiction western" as the title or switch it to the (apparently) more general "Science Fiction/Western" or "Sci-Fi Western" (or both, with one redirecting to the article, of course)? ~EZ 169.139.190.6 21:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

If you go by the definitions, which seem eminently reasonable to me, a science fiction Western is science fiction that takes place in the West, and a space Western takes place in a future or other sci-fi setting that happens to resemble the West. They are, as has been explained, polar opposites; in the former, the setting is the West with science fiction elements added; in the latter, the setting is a science-fictional one with Western elements added.

The real problem is that half of the examples in the article don't fit the definition. Firefly takes place in a future where people just happen to wear cowboy hats, ride horses, and rob trains. Trigun takes place on an alien planet which just happens to have gunslingers, bounty hunters, lots of deserts, and sheriffs. Those are space Westerns and not science fiction Westerns, and don't belong in this article. Jonah Hex's future adventures don't fit either definition; the sci-fi setting has a Western character added, but not Western elements. Ken Arromdee 06:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * "If you go by the definitions, which seem eminently reasonable to me, a science fiction Western is science fiction that takes place in the West, and a space Western takes place in a future or other sci-fi setting that happens to resemble the West. They are, as has been explained, polar opposites; in the former, the setting is the West with science fiction elements added; in the latter, the setting is a science-fictional one with Western elements added."


 * The problem with that is, despite how "reasonable to [you]" it seems, that there's very few sources cited that agree that that is the only definition of "science fiction Western". In order to pin down the definition - ALL the definitions - that are actually used in literary criticism and genre descriptions off Wikipedia, we need way more sources. For all you know, both definitions (of it being a sci-fi story in the old American West, and of it being merely a story that combines themes from both the traditional "Western" and science fiction genres) are used frequently. I've personally never even seen the term "science fiction Western" used outside of Wikipedia (though I've certainly watched a lot of series that would fit the bill, such as The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr., and have heard the term "space Western" a few times).


 * Further - where is it that the author of that M.I.T. thesis makes those claims that are stated in this article as having been made by him? Even going through portions of the thesis, I failed to find a mention of the Western. I believe it is standard practice to actually state what portion something like that is gleaned from, is it not? Furthermore, the article states he wrote his thesis in "1953" - he says in the introduction to the thesis that it was 1968!


 * In any case, one source that mentions the Western from the '60s or '50s is hardly cause in and of itself to think that the term would still be used like that, even if he did coin the term "science fiction Western" (and, please do mention where he mentioned it, if he did, because I fail to see evidence that he used this exact term). Just look at fan fiction, which until the '60s, meant amatuer publications - now it means unauthorized derivitive works by fans! Words and phrases can change meaning very quickly, and if this term is still used in any specific context/definition, then we must establish that much. Otherwise, it's looking like an awful lot of unsourced and poorly-supported OR to me.


 * Oh, and don't get me started on "Since the characteristic elements of science fiction can occur in any setting, science fiction lends itself to combination with other genres (Gunn)" - that says nothing about the actual term "science fiction Western" in particular, from what I can tell.


 * Again - who coined it, when did they coin it, is it still used, and in what definitions is it still used? We need to explicitly answer those questions before we do anything else to either space western or this article, I should think. Runa27 19:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It's true that the definition is fuzzy and nobody agrees on it.
 * But it's still contradictory to start an article with one definition and then to have a bunch of examples that don't fit the definition you just used. This article must be changed to make any sense; whether you change the examples or the definition really doesn't matter.  (If the same term is used for both, then we should have one article describing the two categories.) Ken Arromdee 21:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

can we kill the merge tags?
I think that, with the "differences" sections firmly in place, it's pretty easy to see that these are not the same thing. Can we get rid of the tags? They aren't appropriate. - Che Nuevara  17:30, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Seconded and thirded on Talk:Space Western, no discussion here in 6 weeks. Taking action. If objections arise, please place them here. :) - Che Nuevara  17:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Different genre?
The article says, "The genre differs from Steampunk primarily in that the setting is the American Old West rather than the Victorian era." That doesn't make any sense, because the Old West took place during the Victorian era. The article Steampunk considers the Science Fiction Western to be a subgenre of Steampunk, and I'm inclined to agree. By what standard could we say that it isn't? --Lazar Taxon 22:04, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Certainly, differentiating between the American Old West and the Victorian era is ahistorical and silly, and is no basis for saying that Steampunk and Science fiction Western are, ipso facto, different animals. However, a sci-fi western does not necessarily have to be steampunk---one could imagine a sci-fi western in which an internal combustion engine has been invented and developed, and that would certainly set it apart from steampunk.  On that basis, I would have to reject the notion that sci-fi western is a subgenre of steampunk.  Rather, they are two separate subgenres of sci-fi that can, and often do, overlap. ---Cathal 15:50, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, that makes sense. --Lazar Taxon 20:00, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * A bit like a Venn diagram - some sci-fi westerns might be interpreted as being Steampunky and Steampunk can have an Old West setting but they are distinct genres which just crossover a bit. (Emperor 18:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC))

Split category
I think a category titled Space Westerns should be created. Currently, there are lots of titles in the Science fiction Westerns category that do not fit the definition. SharkD 03:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I put Category:Science fiction Westerns up for renaming since most of the articles are for Space Westerns. SharkD 04:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You can discuss the renaming here. SharkD 04:15, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Explanation of my edit
I added a science fiction western book to the list of books. The book is called The Ghosts of Watt O'Hugh. I also attached a citation to a review in the Boston Phoenix which described the book to show that it was a relevant addition. There are other books and films which I would like to add to this as well to make it more helpful to readers. Very quickly, it was deleted. I added it again, and it was deleted again with the explanation that I didn't indicate why it was notable. This was within a day. This was incorrect - the cite made it clear that it was a notable book. I have tried again, with an explanation within the text, which I don't think should be necessary (no other book explained why it was notable in the text - the citation to a reliable source should be enough). Anyway, the book I added made a best of the year list on Kirkus- if Kirkus says it's a notable book, then that should be good enough. I think this article could be more useful with more information, and I'm making a good faith effort to provide more information in a very short piece.

Rabbiscat — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rabbiscat (talk • contribs) 12:13, 6 February 2012 (UTC)