Talk:Scotland/Archive Summary

Key Extracts from the Talk:Scotland Archives

This is not intended to be an encyclopedia article or a definitive academic exercise. It is simply a rough and ready guide for contributors to the Scotland article. Please do NOT edit this document save to add new archived references. If you dispute its contents or wish to amend them, please use Talk:Scotland to raise and resolve the matter.

NB 1 Scotland has a long and complex history and its unusual constitutional status as a ‘kingdom within a kingdom’ (or whatever your preferred description may be) makes issues that might be non-controversial elsewhere the subject of lengthy debates here.

NB 2 If you do attempt to re-open old debates, you may find that some old hands roll their eyes and make battle-weary remarks. In such cases, at the very least make sure you have looked at the earlier discussions and if at all possible try to make a completely new point.

The structure of this document generally follows that of the Article at December 2006 beginning with lead/infobox and general issues and then moving on to the individual sections.

Lead Section

 * Problems with: A13.
 * See Politics A15 below.
 * Phonetics A15.
 * Several discussions, mainly related to country/constituent country etc. in A20. Of the 500 edits from 1st July to 27th August 2008 none changed the lead in any significant way, suggesting the emergence of a new consensus. See also A22 and A23.

Scotland - A Nation?
After considerable discussion there is an informal consensus amongst Scottish Wikipedians that Scotland is a nation and a country, although clearly not a sovereign nation state. See Archives 1, 2 (twice) 3, 6, 11 (twice), 13, 14, 15 (x5), 16 & 18 (x3).

“Scotland is a nation, by accordance to most modern definitions of a nation, here is one such example "Nations are essentially cohesive cultural communities with a strong self-identity. Many states contain several nations and, consequently, many nations do not have their own state." Archive 1 (A1).

“Although nation, country and state are often used as synonyms, they do in fact all have different meanings: nation is a cultural designation; country is geographical; and state is political (and not necessarily a fully sovereign entity either, eg Idaho).” A6

On the fourth occasion the subject was raised in A15 (during the time period August-October 2007) an editor noted "The current opening sentence has been established for over 2 years." The sentence in question: "Scotland (Gaelic: Alba) is a nation in northwest Europe and one of the four constituent countries of the United Kingdom." This debate continued at length through A16 with no consensus reached for any change.

After continuing lengthy discussions 'nation' is not in the lead by the end of A19.

"Country" discussed in A22.

Standardisation of leads in UK articles
Lengthy discussions in A16 and A20.
 * Proposal: "[T]hese five articles (UK, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland & England) are interlocked with each other. You change 'one'? you change them all."
 * Replies: Focussed on the necessity (or lack thereof) for harmonisation, and the vagaries of the UK constitutional position. "[T]he political structure of the UK is virtually anarchic ... it isn't formalized like the states and provinces of Canada, Australia or the US. England exists as "England and Wales" and as "England", and all three devolved parliamentary bodies have different powers from each other, while England and the UK are governed as the same. And Northern Ireland isn't a commonly described as a country or a nation, whereas Scotland, England and Wales are."

Elizabeth I of Scotland/ Elizabeth II of the UK
General agreement that ‘Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom’ is the correct title for the present monarch. A1, A15.

Commonly used ‘Scottish English’ words
E.g. ‘Outwith’, ‘furth’. “It is wikipedia policy to allow regional English usage in articles about regional topics, and considered bad form to edit them out for no other reason”. A2 & A22.

Scots Language
There seems to be no clear consensus other than that whilst English is generally the de facto language, there is no official language as such. Use of Lowland Scots is “recognised by the European Union's European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages” A3. It is claimed and disputed that many Scots speak the Scots language e.g. "No one speaks like Burns wrote." & "If you lived in Buchan where people's daily speech is much closer to Burn's writing, ...your opinion might well be rather different." A3. See also A9, A13. Consensus at A13 amongst Scottish Wikipedians is that English, Scots and Gaelic should be listed in the infobox, but ongoing discussion at A14, A15 and A20.

From Languages of the United Kingdom: (Lowland) Scots is spoken by 30% of the Scottish population according to the 1996 estimate of the General Register Office for Scotland (approximately 1.5 million speakers).

National Anthem
There is no official Scottish national anthem. “While there is no doubt that Flower of Scotland is probably the most popular national anthem in Scotland, it is not the only one, nor even the longest established.” A3. See also A8, A9, A10, two discussions in A15 regarding the role of GStQ, and A20. '(Multiple unofficial anthems)' is the ongoing result in the Infobox until A20 when it is changed to "FoS (de facto)".

Coats of Arms and Flags
Complex discussion and references to edit wars at A4. “The Scottish Lion Rampant…is the only available coat of arms to represent the country of Scotland in a solitary capacity.’” A8. The consensus amongst Scottish Wikipedians is that this heraldic device should appear by the Saltire as the 'Coat of Arms'. Continues, A14 and A20, A22, and A23.

Lengthy discussion at A21 results in re-designed infobox with two flags - Saltire and Lion Rampant.

Size of Article
From A5 onwards there is a growing consensus that the Scotland article is too long. By December 2006 it had reached 79kb. There are ongoing attempts to reduce and/or prevent increases in its size. See A11, A12, A15 (twice).

Infobox
General discussion on size and 'establishment' A15

Motto
Brief beginning of 'Nemo me impune laccesit' controversy at A10 continued in depth at A13. Replaced by "In Defens" in A20.

Anthem
See above

Map
A14, A15 (twice) and again A16. No change agreed. "{T]he map is for purely identifying where Scotland is located. It is not above showing whether it is in Europe or the UK. It is not about showing whether Scotland is part of the UK or Europe. .... It is not about locating Scotland in concert with its constitutional arrangements." A16, A17 No change agreed, Some stating that the map "it is inconsistent with maps of other sub-national entities and users might be mislead to the interpretation that Scotland is an independent state." A18 (x8) No change agreed. After continuing lengthy discussions and administrator intervention 'Scotland Location UK.PNG' is in use by the end of A19. More in A20. Revised map inserted in A22.

Languages
A14, A15 - see above.

PM
A14 and A20 relating to placing of PM/FM.

Patron Saint
A15

Etymology
See A7, A10, A14.

History
Section is far too long A7, A8. Puppet King - Debate at A9 re the Wars of Independence. Benarty's Shepherd's map - Lengthy discussions amongst historians about the Dark Ages A6. Scotti discussed in A20. Origin of the nation - A21

Politics
Improvements A8. Disputes about Coat of Arms and Europe A9.

Act of Union - “Scotland is doing well. If it stays in the Union it will continue to do well. If it becomes independent it will also continue to do well. There are serious questions about what is best for Scotland, but don't let's cheapen the debate by pretending to be some kind of persecuted minority.” A5

"despite widespread protest across Scotland" in the lead queried in A15 (twice) but the phrase survives the debate.

Law
Scotland continues to constitute a separate state and jurisdiction in Public International Law A9. And again at A11.

Geography & Natural History
Re-draft mentioned at A13 Rockall, Roman Forts, A14

Economy
Discussions about Scottish Bank notes at A1, A2, A7, A8. Edinburgh's importance as a financial centre, A16. A21 (immediately prior to HBOS crisis of 9.08).

Religion
Discussion about use of statistics in A20.

Military
Creation A10. See also A11, & 'proportionally large amount of military bases in Scotland' A12. Relevance of, A14.

Culture etc.
Shared Culture with UK/Europe - Lengthy dialogues at A8, A12

Sectarianism & Social problems- Lengthy section A10

Harp Image Controversy - see A7, A8

General discussion A14

Transport
Mentioned as needing to be summarised A12.

National Symbols
Mentioned as possibly needing its own page A12. Much of the material moved to new article on the subject during GA Review September 07. See A15 (twice).

Images
General discussion A15

GA/FA
Attempts to reach FA discussed at A5, A11, A12, A14. Improvements to maintain GA status A14. "GA on Hold" in A15 results in a significant tidying up of references etc.

Vandalism & Anon IP editing
A14. Semi-protection and Nimbley Troll A21, A22.

Opinion Polls
"The only poll of public opinion that matters are those which form Governments." A15

Norwegian & Viking connections
A 14, A15

FAQ
Suggestion to create one in A20. Created December 2008 (A23.)

Prime Minister et al in Infobox
A20, 22 and future 24.