Talk:Scott Sonnon/Archive 1

MENSA
The source on this is from the subject's website; so a better source is needed. --Mista-X (talk) 04:27, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I deleted all non-sourced claims, including the MENSA reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.89.255.141 (talk) 07:29, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I deleted the MENSA reference yet again. Why is this non-sourced information being added?  Who is editing this page?MMAEditing (talk) 09:49, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The Mensa reference has been readded with an improved, third-party reference. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 22:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Place of birth
Category:Place of birth missing (living people) I noticed this tag here, I deactivated it (talk pages don't belong in this category) and whomever added it, please sign when you put things like that on the talk page. Tyciol (talk) 20:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

References/highlights
I noticed that a lot of these did have URLs for references. Some of them were not properly ref-tagged so I added those. Some of the ref tags are repetetive though, but I don't know how to do that special thing where you direct to the same source multiple times in a page. I notice someone did that a couple times so if you could also do it for the ones I added [ref][/ref] to that would be helpful.

There are a lot of different organizations listed in the article and in the 'career highlights'. In particular, the three halls of fame are listed in both. Since they are already listed in the highlights, would anyone be adverse to removing them from the 'training' section introduction? It's a bit repetetive, and while they are more recent events than the other highlights, I don't see why they stand out more than the other accomplishments so as to be specially mentioned, especially since it is in the same section. It is also strange because they are listed first, normally you would list the oldest events first and the more recent ones last. So, if somebody agrees then please remove that since it is already on the list (which someone arranged in chronological order, so it's easier to understand).

In general, despite the references, I know very little about these various organizations and teams which are listed. I turned them into links to encourage people who know about them to find references and to create Wikipedia articles for them. Keep in mind that they will probably be targeted for removal by deletionists so please only create an article after having acquired proper references which can be immediately incorporated to secure an article's future. If these terms do not warrant articles it would be helpful to redirect them to other articles (perhaps a 'list of' article) which mentions it in a short summary along with similar organizations. I just think it is strange that if these things are being used as sources of notability that they don't have articles themself.

I can understand that SS is perhaps more well known than any single one of these, but these things may have rich histories (perhaps they have articles in the language of the countries' specific origins?) and may be linked to other notable people in the martial arts or police/military worlds who similarly refer to them but have no article to link to. Tyciol (talk) 20:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Student of Systema?
The article says he studied under Alexey Kadochnikov, the founder of Kadochnikov Systema, therefore implying that he studied Kadochnikov Systema, and yet Sonnon himself says in this interview: "have no idea what any "Systema’ teaches and, frankly, I don't care" therefore he didn't study systema. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.17.135.140 (talk) 04:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC).
 * When Sonnon says this he is referring to Ryabko's Systema. He also makes it clear in the article that he in fact trained ROSS; which as we all know branched out from Kadochnikov Systema. The point he is trying to make is that his work is unique. However, the fact still remains he has a connection to Systema. --Mista-X 03:02, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think 'as we all know' is a bit of an exaggeration, I doubt many people are versed in the lineage of various Russian martial arts. These is a similar lack of popular knowledge for pretty much any kind of fighting school descendency. Look at what a nightmare the various Japanese/Chinese lineage systems are to discern. Anyway, in an attempt to clarify this confusion... this 'ROSS' thing uses either the term 'System' or 'Sistema' rather than 'Systema' in the title, so maybe that is part of it? I will have to check how SS phrases this in the URL submitted by IP70, but perhaps he calls it ROSS more frequently than Systema if that is what he trained in as Mista has said.
 * Alright, I think I figured this out. Actually, I can't find anything saying he is a student of Kadochnikov (did this wiki article say that previously, are you referring to?). The martialist article 70 linked to does mention the name in this sentence: "in Russia there are as many "Systema" as there are "Russian Martial Art" systems: Kadochnikov, Belov, Spas, Skobar, Sobor, Buza, Golitsin, ROSS, RRB, Kolo, Rukopashni Boi, Ryabko, Sidorov, Slavyano Goretskaya Bor'ba, et cetera. In recent years this list has grown beyond what I experienced" As you can see, also bolded ROSS since that's what he does mention having been affiliated with (though he calls it "American Annex to the Russian Federation of Russian Martial Art"). On the wikiarticle for that he is also listed as the former North American director (the martialist article says he resigned over some kind of disagreement on ranking systems, specifics are a bit confusing to).
 * As for where Alexey Kadochnikov could come into things, the ROSS founder Alexander Retuinskih has Kadochnikov listed as one of 6 teachers who taught him (specifically "instructor of hand-to-hand combat") the other 5 teaching Sambo. This leads me to believe that while Kadochnikov's Systema is 'related to' ROSS, considering the partnership between these two ended in 1991 and Sonnon was licensed in ROSS 5 years later (1996) I don't think there is anything indicating that he studied under Kadochnikov or that Kadochnikov's Systema played any predominant part in his training (it looks like something studied to expand his knowledge in Sambo/Sombo). So... basically it's good 70 pointed this out, because if this was ever in the article at some point, it would be an unsourced mistake. Tyciol (talk) 23:25, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Quotes
I wonder, is it harder to get a collection on 'Wikiquotes'? He has a lot of lectures on various articles/vids that could be quoted. I like what he said recently too: "suck it" heh. Tyciol (talk) 21:20, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Sonnon's master of sport
Russkisambofederation, Sonnon's own site says Honourable Master of Sport, which was awarded by the AASF. If you have information that proves the contrary over this, please present it before undoing my revisions with seemingly no forethought. HolJah (talk) 03:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

mthai66 (talk) I have information to the contrary. How would you like me to present it? —Preceding undated comment added 03:43, 5 December 2009 (UTC).

Is it propaganda?
I do not like the article about Mr. Sonnon. IMHO I think Wikipedia is paying too much honor and fame to a normal guy. He is not an Olympic athlete, a famous actor, a scientist, a war hero. He is just a martial trainer.--jackjack 20:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * A normal guy? He's a world champion in two different martial arts, a multiple time USA National Team Coach, multiple time author, producer, Ultimate Fighting Championship conditioning and sport psychology coach, an inventor with multiple patents in strength equipment, a prolific publisher featured in many magazines and covers, an inductee into the martial art hall of fame and the fitness hall of fame. That's hardly normal. --B-ham 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * All of those things may be true, but the notability criteria here requires reliable sources to substantiate those claims ... find some citations independent of the subject's own website, i.e., from responsible, main-stream publications ... see No original research and Citing sources if you are unclear about the concept of Attribution ... Happy Editing! &mdash; 21:18, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The references above did indeed have independent literary sources cited in the wiki before it was blotted out. I understand (now) that attribution must be independent of the wiki topic, but not only were those points erased, but all points even those with properly Citing sources. Can it be repaired? --B-ham 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * He is definitely not a world champion in two martial arts. The San Shou "title" is from a single fight in an event that doesn't seem to be recognized anywhere. To claim it as a legitimate world title is obvious self-marketing. The purpose of this wikipedia article seems to be to advertise Mr. Sonnon's website and services.213.243.171.56 (talk) 00:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I deleted reference to his Early Life and Personal Life. There is nothing in there that is directly relevant to his career; for instance, you cannot tell me that his grandparents being from Sonnon, GDR is such. The problem with this article is that it contains much that is not directly relevant to the core of his accomplishments as an athlete and a fitness trainer. Much of his Career Highlights (i.e. Emcee for the Arnold Classic) follow this vein. Were it cut down it would greatly improve the overall quality of this article. Jun Kayama (talk) 05:19, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Disputed event
The statement "*1993 Universiade (World University Games) silver medalist in Sambo  " has apparently been disputed on the grounds that "Sonnon did not win a silver medal in SAMBO at the 1993 World University Games held in Buffalo, NY because there was no SAMBO competition held as an official event or demonstration event at these Games. 1993 Summer Universiade"

I was asked to look at it. The WP page is not a reliable source-- the proper source for these games is the official site, which confirms there was no such event. since this is a BLP, I have accordingly removed the line entirely. the bio on that site, which basically does read as if he submitted it himself. A person's own CV is adequate for undisputed routine facts about his life, but not if controverted. (I note this casts some doubt about the accuracy of the entire bio at usa.dojo.) While I was here, I decided to trim a little, removing some of the obviously minor awards etc.   DGG ( talk ) 18:11, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Contested references
Let us just go through the references cited in this article one-by-one.

1-- A scan of an invitation of a seemingly grassroots organization which promotes int'l fights. 2--Direct link to Arnold Sports Fesitival. No reference to or information re: Sonnon 3--Appears to have worked with Peta Wilson, not sure if this denotes worth of wiki-page; also claims to be the first westerner allowed into USSR during cold war....very odd 4--References interview with Sonnon himself, hardly a credible source. 5--References Ultimate Grappling Magazine to claim influence over Army Combatives Training. http://www.ultimategrapplingmag.com/news/press-releases/302 article is here and only interviews Sonnon and Army sergeant. 6--Dead link, used to link directly to a Sonnon biography as a source? Not credible. 7--merely links to talk given which show jargon terms and impossible to define techniques. 8--Another dead link 9--wikiarticle says Sonnon is credited with reintroducing indian clubs to training, then links to Sonnon interview where he makes this claim himself? Obviously not credible. 10--Another dead link, but would have gone to Sonnon bio as source, again. 11--Links to site where members nominate ONE ANOTHER for awards and membership, site has no credentials outside of itself 12--Another dead link 13--Another dead link, appears to have linked to Sonnon interview 14--Links to a Sonnon product where Sonnon claims to have innovated old techniques 15--links to another sonnon product and his own quotes, again. 16--link to a say where you pay to have your biography listed, contains most things from previous SOnnon wiki pages which were removed as having been made up and impossible to prove 17--yet another dead link 18--same bunk reference as number 11, above 19--shows that SOnnon holds patent in newer form of indian club, no evidence of having "reintroduced" 200 year old tool 20--Links to Sonnon's own blog as reference....again 21--ANother link to the Arnold Sports FEstival, no info re: Sonnon 22--Dead link... IKSA appears only in Sonnon blogs and bios and other sites and accredited Sambo orgs say he made this up 23--Link where Sonnon now claims to be a PhD!! FR1A: Ageless Mobility™ (WS) Scott Sonnon, Ph.D. <that's new. Link charges for seminar with supposed PhD 24--Same site as 16 where you pay for bio posting and to have "board" listing

I started out wiki-surfing and was so bothered by this page that I had to make this account. Sorry, but as somebody who loves logic and rhetoric I HAVE to take offense at this nonsense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adam1134 (talk • contribs) 16:37, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

PoV allegation
It is obvious this article is biased and written by a fan or a group of people affiliated with the man discussed. Therefore the POV tag has been added. User:59.177.4.2121:19, 24 March 2006
 * It is more obvious that this ongoing slagging of the individual is being conducted by the group (www.russianmartialart.com) wishing to defame him. It's obvious they're disputing this literal history in order try and somehow discredit the individual in question, as they have an obvious history of doing so just be doing a google search. —Preceding unsigned comment added by B-ham (talk • contribs)
 * Please do not speculate on other editors' motives, see WP:AGF and WP:NPA. The article reads like an advertisement, and quotes exactly zero external verifiable sources for any of this. It needs to establish the notability of the subject using verifiable reliable sources. And the adspeak has to go... I tagged it with a couple of cleanup tags to show the article is work in progress; that should give the article a bit of time so we can see if there is any hope it can be improved. Weregerbil 06:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * False, I originally wrote the article (but it looks like it was originally deleted and recreated since I last checked) and I'm not affiliated nor a major fan (though I do like some of his ideas). I mean honestly, you don't accuse fans of Shakespeare for writing the Shakespeare article. Furthermore, anyone can edit in criticism. Tyciol 20:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The sources used for various material on this page do not meet the standards for verifiability. The "sources" invariably reference either magazine articles written by minor media outlets who cite Sonnon as their only source, or are links to catalog pages for products that contain direct reproductions of material from Sonnon's website.  There is also inaccuracy in some of the claims.  One section of the article states that circular strength training is used as "the" conditioning method of the US Army; the cited source says CST is "an" official conditioning method of the US Army combatives school.  If Sonnon's methods were endorsed by the US Army as their official PT system, that would imply widespread endorsement and adoption of his ideas by a reputable source, something that has not happened.  Moreover, I not been able to find verification of this fact on any US military site, including the school of combatives.  At this time, it appears that Sonnon is a minor figure in the world of commercial fitness products and a formerly major figure in American Sambo, and this article should be edited to reflect that fact.Soft helion (talk) 17:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no source attribution to state that Circular Strength Training is the official standard for Physical Training in the United States Army. A few senior NCOs adopting it on their own and being quoted to effect does not equate DA policy or official adoption; they are equally free to speak the praises of pilates or yoga, and just as it is so for Circular Strength Training, there is no official weight behind such statements whatsoever. Unless it is explicitly written into Army Field Manual 21-20 (Physical Fitness Training) any claim to being any sort of standard in the United States Army is absolutely unwarranted, no matter how many seminars and workshops are conducted for individual units. Jun Kayama 23:16, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

More on claims and references
The Pan American Games claim was reinserted despite there having been no PanAm Games in 1994; the editor's claim that "Was discussed before and proven to be valid "Pan Am Sombo Championship"" provides only a scanned doc as a reference in the edit summary (and not in the article). The scan is not a reliable source, and says nothing about the Pan American Games. If there was another Pan Am Sombo Championship that Sonnon won, a source needs to be found for that and the article text corrected. As for the claim about being an instructor for the NYPD Academy, again there is only a scanned document given as evidence, and that is merely a certificate of appreciation, not anything that could support the clam of instructor. The situation is similar to the one brought up in the "PoV allegation" section of this page about the US Army, and like that claim needs a reliable third-party source to back it up - not a vague document that just says "thanks". Ergative rlt (talk) 23:34, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

More on the NYPD document: it is a "certificate of appreciation" (not an instructor's certificate) for a one day, three hour seminar that was held at the academy (links here and here). There is no sign that this was repeated, no evidence that it was an official NYPD Academy program or that any of the techniques now form part of the official instruction of the NYPDA. A thank you note for three hours of unofficial instruction does not constitute being described as an instructor in this article. Also, again note that the Pan Am Games claim is not backed by the source in question. Ergative rlt (talk) 21:16, 2 November 2011 (UTC)