Talk:Scottish Beer

Scottish Ale and Scottish beer are the same.

I will merge the two into one article.

SilkTork 14:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Talk brought over from Scottish Ale
I dont have a picture of a Scottish ale, if you have one please change this. Allegrorondo

Sam Adams Scotch Ale
Sam Adams Scotch Ale

In my opinion, this is actually a mislabelled smoked ale. I will delete it unless someone objects. --goethean &#2384; 16:10, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Cool
Hey, this looks really awesome --Daniel11 03:15, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Scotland as a brewing region distinct to the rest of Britain
Edinburgh brewers had an excellent reputation for strongly hopped ales in the style of the Burton Ales (also known as India Pale Ale). Scotland developed a reputation for a strong malty ale in the style of a Barley Wine which was known as Edinburgh Ale or Scotch Ale when exported. But this style of beer was not unique to Scotland. The Caledonian Brewery is the last remaining brewery in Britain to use direct-fired open coppers which impart a caramel sweetness to some of their beers. But this is a single brewery. The Williams Brothers in Alloa use bittering plants other than hops in some of their beers. However, brewers throughout the Middle East and Europe used various herbs and bitter plants in beer until hops gradually took over. The use of such bittering plants was not unique to Scotland. Other breweries in Scotland have no flavours or brewing processes which mark them out as distinct from the rest of Britain. There has been much confusion and misinformation about Scottish beers over the years, mainly due to hugely inaccurate assumptions and lack of research by the writers of the BJCP style guide.

SilkTork 13:33, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The above is an important point of view that should be mentioned in the article, along with opposing points of view. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 17:16, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * "The above is an important point of view that should be mentioned in the article". If, of course, it can be sourced, re WP:CITE.--Mais oui! 22:42, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Um...nothing in the rest of the article is sourced. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 00:19, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

If the entire article is unsourced, then it ought to be considered for deletion. I note that you requested that "opposing points of view" also be included. This would seem compulsory in the circumstances, because there is clearly a difference of opinion among experts. Something along the lines of: David X says this in this publication, but Nigel Y says such and such in this book.--Mais oui! 08:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I have now inserted sources and shown opposing points of view. I will be returning to do some more work on this article. I have some evidence that on Islay heather was used alongside hops in beer in the mid 18th century. Even though this is not enough for Scotland to claim gruit as a uniquely Scottish beer style, it might indicate an argument that gruit was a popular and enduring beer style in Scotland.SilkTork 09:48, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge
Scotch Ale (style) would seem to be redundant to this article, and it would appear it was written more specifically with 80/- in mind. I think we should merge what isn't already here and then moake the other a redirect to here. Thanks/wangi 12:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed, although I object to the rename that went on over at that other article. Heavy is not a type of bitter. That is as daft as saying that bitter is a type of heavy. Both these articles are being edited from a very anglocentric view of the world. Let's have a little more respect shown for Scottish traditions, rather than always referring everthing back to a southern standard.--Mais oui! 12:28, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

A merge would be inappropriate. This is the place to describe the history of Scottish beer. I plan to do more work on this. And other people may also wish to discuss the general history of beer in Scotland. It might be better to call this article Scottish Beer and have the Scottish Ale redirect to this one because Scotland has a notable history of lager brewing.

Scotch Ale is very much seen as a style of beer. It is appropriate and correct to have a separate entry to discuss Scotch Ale as a beer style. While also having an entry to discuss Scottish beer in general. Pointing to the general history of Scottish beer as a beer style wouldn't be right. But it would be OK to cross reference the two articles.

As for Heavy being a "type of bitter", that would be incorrect. Heavy is a type of Pale Ale, same as Bitter is a type of Pale Ale. They are, though, the same beers, just with different names. A heavy is the equivalent of a session bitter. That isn't anglocentric, it's a statement based on research. Even though I live in England I am Celtic - there's a hint in my user name! I have no willingness to urge anything English over anything Celtic other than to write clear, accurate and true articles. SilkTork 16:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but you've lost me. As things stand Scottish ale and Scotch Ale (style) are largely duplicates of each other, and as such it makes sense to merge them (ie make Scotch Ale (style) a redirect to here). That does not prevent somebody at a later date making an article about the "style of ale known as Scottish" - but we should be concerned about the current articles, and not be looking into a crystal ball. Yeah? Thanks/wangi 17:11, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I see. I've just looked at the Scotch Ale (style) article. You are right, there is little of value there at the moment. Would you be prepared to wait a moment while I write something for it? Or doesn't it matter? Would it be possible to create a new Scotch Ale (style) article even though an article with that name has been deleted? I am intending to write up an article for Scotch Ale (style), if it helps you to know that. When I have written up the Scotch Ale (style) article then all redirects to Scottish Ale / Beer will be incorrect, and would have to be changed back to Scotch Ale (style). SilkTork 18:59, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I have done a little more work on the Scotch Ale page. There is no longer duplication of material. Scotch Ale is now, hopefully, clearly treated as a beer style, while the ongoing work on Scottish Ale/Beer is more obviously that of a history of beers brewed in Scotland. I think at this stage the merge tag should be removed. SilkTork 18:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Edit
"(it is not necessary to constantly compare Scottish standards to English ones. The article has been written as though the readership is English: it is not) "

There is a common misunderstanding that the development and flavour profile of the English Bitters and the Scottish Schilling beers are significantly different. I have been trying to be helpful to people in pointing out that these beers share a common heritage and flavour profile. I would have thought it would have been helpful to let people know that a heavy is the equivalent of a session bitter, and an export the equivalent of a best bitter. The only difference being the name. I have supplied sources and recipe evidence in the body of the article to show that these beers are related. It doesn't appear helpful to me to attempt to conceal the similarities between these beers. That would be to continue to perpetrate the myth of the difference. SilkTork 19:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Definition of a Heavy
When I was drinking beer in Scotland in the late eighties to early nineties (formative years from School to University to early career) I would drink a pint of 'Special' or 70/-, to satisfy the initial thirst, then a couple of pints of 'Heavy' or 80/-, sometimes slowing down with a pint of 90/- then rounding out the night with a few double measures of a good single malt from the western isles. This memory seems to contradict the classifications stated in the article. Can anyone explain?
 * --AgentMole 12:15, 14 July 2007 (UTC)