Talk:Scottish Blackface

Reference
A reference has been challenged by User:HighKing. Here is an extract from the referenced webite "We have been breeding top quality Scottish Blackface sheep since 1990. Our appreciation for this breed comes from first-hand experience working with them in Scotland. We are members of the Scottish Blackface Breeders Association and all of our stock can be registered." I don't think you'll find a person or an organisation more qualified to talk about the subject, and thus be a reference. MidnightBlue  (Talk)  18:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Reference required
Hi, is there a reliable reference for stating that the scottish Blackface is the most "important" breed in the British Isles? There doesn't appear to be any statistics on the Irish Dept of Agriculture website, and no references have been provided since I requested last May. --HighKing (talk) 18:22, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Our edits have somehow overlapped. The reference is good (see my comment). It states the breed is the most "numerous" in the Isles, so I've amended the article. MidnightBlue  (Talk)  18:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, a self-published source is not acceptable as a reliable reference - see WP:V. The Irish Dept of Agriculture has published a number of Sheep and Goat census documents and the latest report for 2007 doesn't even mention sheep breeds. I've reverted as per WP:BRD --HighKing (talk) 18:32, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I've just read the WP:V and you seem to be under some misapprehension that every word in this encyclopedia has to be backed up by an academic reference, especially if the words happen to be "British Isles". Well I think you are going to extremes here. Given the subject matter you're not going to find an academic reference and the one I provided is more than sufficient. Yes, it's self published, but it's by experts on the subject. By exception it's OK. MidnightBlue  (Talk)  18:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi, contrary to your opinion, Wikipedia is very clear on the fact that all claims must be supported by a verifiable reference. So if someone wants to claim that the Scottish Blackface is the most important breed in the British Isles, then if challenged, they must back it up.  I placed a citation required tag on this fact last May - nothing showed up in the meantime.  I've checked official compilations of stats on the Irish government websites and I can't find any census counts on sheep in Ireland.  The reference you've provided fails because it is self-published - and from what I've seen from searching, this "fact" appears to be oft-repeated, almost like an urban myth.  I've removing the claim until a reference can be provided.  --HighKing (talk) 12:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)Considering that no sources have been forthcoming since May 2008, I've updated this article as per the Blackface Sheep Breeders Association webpage. --HighKing (talk) 15:53, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

(conflict)HK, the reference is from the Shepherd's Journal and the full publication lists details of all sheep breeds. They have obtained their information from the Blackface Breeders association - where else, you might ask. The reference states the disputed fact in the first line, and for Wikipedia that is good enough. If you want to go to the ends of the earth looking for a contrary reference stating that the Blackface is not the most numerous breed in the British Isles (or a reference stating that some other breed is the most numerous) then please proceed. In the maean time, and in the absence of such a reference, I'm restoring the one you've deleted. MidnightBlue  (Talk)  17:13, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * (move response)The reference provided refers to the Blackface Sheep Breeders Association as being the provider of the information.  The Blackface Sheep Breeders Association main website states that the breed is the most numerous in Britain, which is what this article states.  Why would you prefer to use a reference which incorrectly quotes it's source?  --HighKing (talk) 17:16, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well maybe they used it as a source then corrected it. There was previously a reference of virtually the same quality as the one to which you refer, stating British Isles, which you rejected as being "self published" or not meeting verifiability standards. Until you can find a reference as I described above the British Isles is acceptable here. MidnightBlue   (Talk)  17:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The "previous" self-published reference is for So to be clear, you believe that a promotional farm website, one which is set up to promote and sell the farm, is a better and more reliable reference than the official breeders association?  --HighKing (talk) 20:33, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The Shepherd's Journal website states "Thank you to the Scottish Blackface Sheep Breeders' Association for providing us with this information". It does not state that the information was obtained from their website. The Breeders website is superficial and does not include anything like the detail found on the Shepherd's Journal; it is the equivalent of a glossy brochure. Clearly the breeders have more detailed information at their disposal and apparently it is this information which they have supplied to the Journal. The very first line states that the breed is the most numerous in the British Isles. It couldn't be more explicit. MidnightBlue   (Talk)  22:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * So you're saying that the Breeders Association website gives different information than some other detailed information available from them, and it was this different information that was passed on to the Shepherd's Journal who faithfully reproduced it. Even though, on the website, they've quoted the fact the info came from a 2003 survey.  I think I'll take the simpler and more likely explanation that the Shepherd's Journal screwed up.  --HighKing (talk) 22:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I shouldn't think they screwed up, but no matter, our views on this are not relevant. The Journal has more detailed information that the Breeders website and the Journal makes the BI statement. It's an open and shut case. MidnightBlue   (Talk)  22:59, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The journal admits they take their information from the Breeders website. The Breeders website cites it's source as a 2003 survey.  They have also in the past updated their website as newer statistics become available (as in 2007 when this update was made).  You say that the Shepherd's Journal has more detailed information?  Really?  Where?  The website you pointed to is a hosted website, not even a specific domain name, so we've no idea who put that information there, or their credentials (The Shepherds Journal ceased publication in Dec 2008). The reference just doesn't meet the minimal standards set by WP:V.  --HighKing (talk) 00:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If we need to find another reference, so be it. But it's a known fact (even among those outside the country, such as myself) that this is the most common breed in the UK. I don't see it as something worth arguing that much about. Steven Walling 07:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't have a problem with stating that it's the most common breed in the UK. But there's nothing to indicate it's the most common breed in the British Isles (which is not the same thing as the UK).  --HighKing (talk) 11:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That sounds fine with me. It gets the factual point across to readers sufficiently. Steven Walling 23:50, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Wool
I suggest that the various sheep breeds also be added to the category of fibers:wool. Detailed fiber information is relevant to the use of the breed and its fleece. Ariadia (talk) 16:13, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Redirection
"Scottish Highland Sheep" should be set to redirect here. I don't know how to do that myself, but hopefully someone else can. 66.25.254.123 (talk) 19:49, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: https://web.archive.org/web/20061229183234/https://www.ramshornstudio.com/shearing.htm, https://web.archive.org/web/20061229184736/https://www.ramshornstudio.com/blackface_breeders_guild.htm, https://web.archive.org/web/20060510134353/http://ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/scottishblackface/. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)

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