Talk:Scottish Labour/Archive 1

John McTernan
I'm not sure the reference to John McTernan really belongs in the introduction. This section should summarise the Scottish Labour Party in the most general terms, before elaboration in following sections. Mr McTernan's appointment is a relevant addition to this article, but I'd suggest it goes elsewhere - perhaps a new section about the Scottish Labour since devolution? The article on the Wales Labour Party provides an example of how this might work. In the meantime I've removed two of the three references to the secondment - one is all that is required and their other two (while mentioning the secondment) were primarily about the cash for peerages investigation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Normalmouth (talk • contribs) 10:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC).


 * The two references you removed are the ones which specifically mention his secondment, and position as chief. Therefore they stay. --Mais oui! 10:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello. Three is rather excessive don't you think? One good one is all that is required, which the Scotsman article supplies. Normalmouth 11:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * No. It was you who tried to completely remove any mention whatsoever of McTernan, doubting the verifiability of the sentence. I then solidly back up the statement, per WP:CITE. And what do you then do but immediately attempt to remove the references which you yourself requested!?! Just cut it out Normalmouth. We have seen you at work for far far too long, and your modus operandi is well-known. --Mais oui! 11:09, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You've misunderstood me. I wanted a better reference. You supplied that, so thanks - good work. Three references however is simply OTT. As for the statement itself (as explained above) I think it belongs elsewhere in the article, but for now I'm ahappy to see it in. Can we work on a section that places the second in its proper context (i.e as a recent development ina party that has existed for a long time)? Normalmouth 11:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * No. I did not 'misunderstand' anything whatsoever. I have a perfect understanding of your behaviour here at Wikipedia, which has been transparent since your very first edits. Attempting to be syrupy-sweet on Talk pages, while simultaneously implementing a one-man POV war, is not fooling anybody. Your Edit history speaks for itself. --Mais oui! 11:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * There's clearly no talking to you at the moment. My collaboration with others on Wikipedia speaks for itself. I do not need to defend myself against you. User: Wangi has commented to the effect that one reference is sufficient, and he agees with me that the Scotsman one is the right one. I've nothing further to add at this stage, but I will be looking to edit the article at a future stage so that the McTernan secondment is placed in better context. Just so you are aware. Normalmouth 11:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

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Update Needed
This article needs updated because Jack McConnell is no longer First Minister and is now Leader of the largest opposition party and the same goes for Cathie Jamieson with Justice. Also the entire London Government changed and Alistar Darling still has one of his old jobs while he has argubly of the most important in the country. I would do it myself but I don't know enough about the Labour Party. Thank You. Gr1873 22:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)gr1873Gr1873 22:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Leader
Why is Cathy Jamieson shown as the leader? Gordon Brown is the leader of the Scottish Labour Party. Donald Dewar, Henry McLeish, Jack McConnell and Wendy Alexander (and now Cathy Jamieson as caretaker) have led the Labour group of MSPs in the Scottish Parliament. The infobox should be amended to reflect this separation. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 13:52, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Gordon Brown is the leader of the Labour Party in the entire UK. There is not a leader of the Scottish Labour Party but Cathy Jamieson is the caretaker yes but the leader of the Scottish Labour Party is different from the entire Labour Party. I believe that this point was painfully clear when Wendy Alexander broke from party line calling for an independence referndum. Also can someone do a proper edit of this entire article as what I said almost a year ago still stands that I do not know much about the Labour Party. Thank you again. Gr1873 —Preceding comment was added at 20:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the point being made is that there is no such position as leader of the Scottish Labour Party, but only the position as leader of the Labour group in the Scottish Parliament. Note Labour's own usage here:.


 * It's a slightly pedantic point, but I think it's well made. --Breadandcheese (talk) 11:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

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Infobox
Apart from the "leader" (whoever that may be - refs definitely needed) would it not be sensible to also put the General Secretary (currently Colin Smyth) in the Infobox? --Mais oui! (talk) 16:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * If other Scottish parties have the General secretary then i would not object to it being added here. Although i do not think it is really needed, especially if the Colin Smyth holding that position isnt even notable enough for an article.


 * As for Iian Gray the Scottish labour leader, heres a source if its really needed. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:32, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * This is misleading - Iain Gray is Labour's leader in the Scottish Parliament - check the Labour party website  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.167.198.195 (talk) 21:56, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus in support of move.   A rbitrarily 0   ( talk ) 19:21, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Scottish Labour Party → — Relisted. Ucucha 16:27, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Scottish Labour is not an independent political party, but party of the Labour Party in the UK nationally. Although they are often referred to as the Scottish Labour Party, this is not what features in their logo, and not the most common name – 51,000 hits for "Scottish Labour Party" against 114,000 for "Scottish Labour". 84.92.117.93 (talk) 12:09, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily disagreeing (and noting that there are DAB issues with historic Scottish Labour Parties), but the organisation refers to itself as the "Scottish Labour Party": "Throughout the 80s and 90s, Labour in Scotland, restyled as the Scottish Labour Party, ..." on their website. I think I'd want to see more views before !voting either way. Cheers, TFOWRThis flag once was red 16:03, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, they seem to brand themselves as the "Scottish Labour Party", including their website. This form doesn't seem to be used outside of the party, however: Daily Express, The Scotsman, Daily Record. Please note that they seem to be referred to simply as "Labour" for the most part. 84.92.117.93 (talk) 16:23, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure, but the media (bless 'em) also almost always refer to Plaid Cymru as "Plaid" (despite there being numerous "plaids" (not least "Plaid Lafur Cymru"), so I'm not convinced (yet) by ghits or media usage. However, the Welsh Labour Party article is already at Welsh Labour, so there's a definite argument for the rename on the grounds of consistency (which is swaying me towards a !vote for the rename). Cheers, TFOWRThis flag once was red 16:32, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The difference between Scottish Labour and Plaid Cymru is actually formally known by that name – its website is www.plaidcymru.org, for example, versus www.scottishlabour.org.uk. Most reporting of the party uses the full name Plaid Cymru; sure, the BBC may use "Plaid" in headlines, much like "Lib Dems" for Liberal Democrats or "SNP" for Scottish National Party, but it uses the full name in the article itself, as it would for the parties above. This is not the case with Scottish Labour. 84.92.117.93 (talk) 18:09, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

On the Scottish Labour Party not really being a party: the relevance of that presupposes that the only way to parse "Scottish Labour Party" is that it is a "Party" that is "Scottish Labour"; but it may be intended to be parsed instead (for legal or whatever other reasons) as simply the part of the "Labour Party" that is "Scottish". And, as some others have mentioned, the "Labour Party" is commonly referred to as "Labour" without it becoming considered the common name. As for usage, the party (or the Scottish part of it, if you will) seem to use the full phrase "Scottish Labour Party" in more formal prose: the HTML title on every page of their website is "| - The Scottish Labour Party". Their contact page uses it for the postal address. Their history page, though using "The history of Scottish Labour" as the header line, refers to the group as the "Scottish Labour Party" as a noun consistently through the prose, using "Scottish Labour" only one other time, as an adjective. It uses the full name to refer to both the current group and to the formal parties of the past: the Scottish Labour Party as existing from 1888-1893 and merging with the Independent Labour Party (ILP) in 1894, then being revived when the Scottish Workers' Parliamentary Committee changed its name to SLP around 1899, with that party merging into the 1900 (to present) Labor Party in 1909. --Closeapple (talk) 11:25, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

On the number of Google hits: anything that matches "Scottish Labour Party" would also match "Scottish Labour". So "Scottish Labour" having 114,000 hits gross and "Scottish Labour Party" having 51,000 gross would mean that "Scottish Labour" actually only has 63,000 hits that are not "Scottish Labour Party". That ratio is more like 16:13 than 2:1. And included in that 63,000 would be all the times "Scottish Labour" is used as an adjective (e.g. Scottish Labour MP, Scottish Labour councillors) rather than the name of the organization itself. --Closeapple (talk) 11:25, 16 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The thing is, though, that legally there is no such thing as the "Scottish Labour Party" and that most external reliable sources refer to it as simply "Scottish Labour" – only the organisation itself refers to itself as the "Scottish Labour Party", and even then, not consistantly. 84.92.117.93 (talk) 20:18, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Anybody claiming that the Scottish Labour Party doesn't legally exist may like to take a look at: --Mais oui! (talk) 16:42, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/document-summary?assetid=58500


 * And look at the official description of the candidate (Michael Connarty), as it appeared printed on the ballot paper:

--Mais oui! (talk) 16:45, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * http://www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/corporate_neighbourhood/policy_performance_review/research_information/ward_constituency_profiles/election_results/parliamentary_elections/westminster/2010.aspx
 * We should be asking ourselves who is the leader of the Scottish Labour Party. Well, there is no leader because it doesn't actually exist, otherwise we would have a party leader in the infobox. The only leader of the Labour party in Scotland is Harriet Harman. There is of course a leader of Scottish Labour in the Scottish Parliament. Not the same thing. Jack forbes (talk) 23:54, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, Colin Smyth is general secretary. Succeeded Leslie Quinn, who succeeded Jack McConnell. Not sure if that counts as "leader", from memory (and this is dating back to the days of Jack MacConnell as Gen.Sec.) the post is appointed, not elected. Could be wrong, and not sure if it necessarily matters anyway (on the basis that inferring "not a political party" from "lack of leader" offends my "no rulers" sensibilities ;-) TFOWRpropaganda 00:04, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The General Secretary of Scottish Labour is subordinate to this guy. And wouldn't the leader of the Scottish Anarchy party have to take their orders from the UK leader? ;) Jack forbes (talk) 01:10, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "Leader"? We don't understand or even recognise that word! ;-)
 * Point taken about the UK Gen.Sec., and I hadn't realised the Welsh/Scottish Gen.Secs. were subordinate (I naively assumed a degree of autonomy that may not in fact exist...) I've been basing my comments on Labour prior to 1997, which is (a) subject to my appallingly bad memory, and (b) not exactly current...!
 * Cheers, TFOWRpropaganda 11:54, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Still doesn't address the issue. There is no separate registered party as Scottish Labour Party with the commission. Check the register of political parties.

- Scottish Green Party

- Scottish Jacobite Party

- NOTHING HERE

- Scottish National Party

- Scottish Senior Citizens Unity Party

http://registers.electoralcommission.org.uk/regulatory-issues/regpoliticalparties.cfm?ec={ts%20%272009-11-24%2014%3A09%3A32%27}

It is in fact a registered description of Labour Party, London, as logged with the commission.

Labour Party

Fielding candidates in: England, Scotland, Wales

Party description(s):

- Scottish Labour Party - Scottish Labour Party Candidate ''

http://registers.electoralcommission.org.uk/regulatory-issues/regpoliticalparties.cfm?frmGB=1&frmPartyID=6&frmType=partydetail

Page to be changed to "Labour Party (Scottish description)", or other such accurate term, along with text explaining it's Labour Party, London, with a description for Scotland. Same applies to Scottish Tory and Scottish Lib Dem entities. This is simply the truth. --Revolt (talk) 14:50, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree to a change of article name. Jack forbes (talk) 14:58, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Question - Hi, I'm here from requested moves. I don't see a clear consensus in the above discussion. Are editors in general agreement to go ahead with the proposed move? No one has opposed it in so many words, but there are points of contention in there, and I'm not sure exactly how they relate to the naming question. -GTBacchus(talk) 22:31, 9 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed "Scottish Labour" is less ambiguous and more commonly used. --Breadandcheese (talk) 02:35, 10 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Weak oppose after reading the above discussions, still for the reasons I gave above: "Scottish Labour" seems (like "Labour") a slight bit ambiguous (though certainly not so much in recent times), and also a bit more informal. Some have said that "Party" is invalid.  As for that: the phrases "Scottish Labour" and "Scottish Labour Party" are certainly overwhelmingly in use beyond any other phrases; and the name "Scottish Labour Party" has (like "Scottish Labour") even been used in official reports, even where it is explicitly pointed out as a subunit.  "Scottish Labour Party" has 51,000 hits gross on Google; "Scottish Labour" has 114,000 gross, of which 51,000 would be because of matching "Scottish Labour Party", so the ratio of "Scottish Labour" by itself to "Scottish Labour Party" by itself is 5:4, not 2:1, and that's not taking into consideration which uses of "Scottish Labour" are adjectives; it could end up being that, once adjective uses are removed, the noun form "Scottish Labour Party" comes out even.  As far as strict wording, it may well be parsed as the Scottish "Labour Party" (of which the Labour Party is certainly a party, and that part of it is certainly Scottish), not the "Scottish Labour" Party (which is the basis of some the arguments). --Closeapple (talk) 03:37, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Just as a remark, I generally follow the rule of thumb that Google hit ratios any smaller than 5:1 are essentially meaningless. -GTBacchus(talk) 04:30, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose. It's my belief that the common name is Scottish Labour Party - if it gets a mention on BBC/ITV/C4/5 then that's what they will say. Google is useless in this case "Scottish Labour" will also collect links about labour in Scotland, not just about the party. Even the web site cannot make up their own mind - they show a Scottish Labour logo, and just have a view of the page source and you find...
 *  and Home | - The Scottish Labour Party  - so the title in the browser bar shows the word party.  Ron h jones (Talk) 22:12, 11 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Scottish Labour seems ambiguous. Cjc13 (talk) 12:37, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why Scottish Labour is ambiguous and Scottish Labour Party isn't. Scottish Labour (UK party) would certainly not be ambiguous. Scottish Labour Party is certainly ambiguous. What is the Scottish Labour Party, is it a party? Well, no. Does the title infer that it is a party seperate from the UK party? I would say yes. Jack forbes (talk) 13:22, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Scottish Labour could be the name for people who work in Scotland. Scottish Labour Party at least indicates that it relates to a political party (Labour Party being an established and recognised term) and seems a reasonable description of the Scottish section of the Labour Party. Cjc13 (talk) 13:45, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * That's my point, Cj (If I can call you Cj). Scottish Labour is related to a political party, the UK Labour Party. This is why using a title such as Scottish Labour (UK Party) is less ambiguous of the two. Jack forbes (talk) 14:41, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Personally I think Scottish Labour Party is perfectly adequate, as Scotland is still part of the UK and I am not aware of any Scottish Labour Parties outside the UK. If you want to be consistent with Labour Party (UK), it should be Scottish Labour Party (UK), but putting both UK and Scottish in the title seems unnecessary. Cjc13 (talk) 15:29, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Main donor says "Scottish Labour needs to start thinking and planning for independence"
Brian Dempsey, the Labour Party's biggest private funder in Scotland, writing an astonishing, ground-breaking piece in The Scotsman on 21 July 2011. Wikipedia needs to keep an eye on the rapid shifts taking place, and update this article, and related articles, with appropriate NPOV edits, solidly referenced. --Mais oui! (talk) 04:55, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It would strike me as odd for him to be a current party donor considering he is, according to sources on his article, resident outside of the UK. Either way, it'd be improper to elevate a donor to some sort of party spokesperson status, if you're considering including his thoughts in the article. --Breadandcheese (talk) 00:57, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Article title
Shouldn't the article name be changed to Scottish Labour? Scottish Labour Party may be a commonly used name but there is no such party. Jack forbes (talk) 13:22, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Why isn't the title "The Labour Party in Scotland" since that is what the organisation is? 86.158.122.187 (talk) 19:58, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The standard on Wikipedia is WP:COMMONNAME: "Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural." The official website title, official Google+ page, official YouTube page are all titled "Scottish Labour Party".  The official website logo, the official Twitter account, and the official Flickr page are all "Scottish Labour".  Whether its legal form is some department inside another party, or a separately entity, is not really relevant to its common name.  I'm replying here because of an edit on 2014-06-12 that attempted to remove the name from several places on the basis that it was "erroneous".  See also the next section, . --Closeapple (talk) 00:06, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 November 2014
Youth Wing- Scottish Young LabourScottish_Young_Labour

Ejz123 (talk) 17:06, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting wait.svg Already done Stickee (talk) 00:22, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 February 2015
There is no such thing as Scottish Labour Party - as it is registered as an Accounting Branch for UK Labour Party. It is simply misleading to present this Branch as a separate Party when it is clearly NOT

109.147.238.157 (talk) 19:49, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: -That doesn't matter. Majority of secondary, independent and reliable sources mention the branch as "Scottish Labour Party", so do we (see also, Wikipedia article titles naming guideline). Anupmehra  - Let's talk!  22:05, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2015
Update Scottish House of Commons seats following 2015 General Election.

Correct Figure is now 1 seat.

Cdavid138 (talk) 10:55, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Appears to have already been changed. -- haminoon  ( talk ) 02:37, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Murray
please change ((Ian Murray)) to ((Ian Murray (British politician)|Ian Murray))
 * done --nonsense ferret  22:30, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 August 2015
The Name of this Party is UK Labour Party Scottish Branch as the quoted "Scottish Labour Party" Does NOT EXIST they are officially registered as the Branch Accounting Office for UK Labour Party" on the Official Records

109.153.163.246 (talk) 14:29, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.  True CRaysball  | #RaysUp 22:51, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Leader
I noticed there is no Leader of the Scottish Labour Party listed before Johann Lamont in 2011. I had assumed that this meant her predecessors were just leaders of the party in the Scottish Parliament as the article indicates elsewhere, but this BBC news article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/scotland/2000/donald_dewar/983062.stmstates 'Henry McLeish has been chosen to succeed Donald Dewar as the leader of Scottish Labour', rather than leader in the Scottish Parliament, suggesting an overall leader existed in 2000 (or was it a case of the Scottish Parliamentary Party leader being assumed to be de facto leader of the party in Scotland?). Dunarc (talk) 19:02, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

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Requested move 10 March 2020

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed, without express opposition. BD2412 T 19:47, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Scottish Labour Party → Scottish Labour – Per Welsh Labour. Unreal7 (talk) 14:33, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Support as the common name, used significantly more often by reliable sources. Ralbegen (talk) 15:06, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment- I am no expert on this but shouldn't the same be applied to Labour Party (UK)? IW. (talk) 16:55, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
 * No. Unreal7 (talk) 10:22, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Reference to Scottish Labour being a "political party" inaccurate
In the intro (and other places), this page states that Scottish Labour are a "political party". There is currently no party registered with the Electoral Commission called "Scottish Labour". Looking through lapsed party registrations, there never has been either. It is in accurate to refer to Scottish Labour, therefore, as a "political party", as without an official registration, someone else could feasibly register the name with the commission who had no affiliation with the broader UK Labour Party. I think that having any reference to Scottish Labour as a "political party" is entirely misleading for anyone looking for information about them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.70.217.232 (talk) 11:40, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You're not wrong but the lead goes on to clarify: "It is an autonomous section of the national Labour Party." so this should be helpful. But by and large, people should be using the links and references for additional information, not Wikipedia itself since the purpose of the site is as an encyclopedia not a directory. Alex (talk) 05:33, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

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