Talk:Scottish National War Memorial

"Troops killed as martyrs for God"
There is a recent (2010) Internet article by a German with some comments (including one by myself, Peter Judge) at the present time (February 2012) under this title and relating to this war memorial on. It seems to myself to be significant in emphasizing the difficulties that in point of fact may historically and architecturally be said to be involved in this matter concerning the history of religion within Europe, with no very clear solution, but with this article making clear that it has in fact been investigated by a person who considers himself involved, as a philosopher, and not one in origin from the UK.

PS It seems to myself (who has now contributed to this article in relation to the German Spirit of 1914 and the UK military parades but with of course particular referance to the United Kingdom and not to Germany, it having been left here on this article intact I am glad to say, at least for the time being) that this contributor on what he terms "martys for God" and which is also described as "something startling in Edinburgh" does indeed (as can be confirmed by anyone choosing to visit the memorial itself in Edinburgh) emphasize the actual character of this memorial, which has certainly within history and very probably also up to the present time been likewise appreciated in the United Kindom but which it seems has for whatever reason not been put down in print other than by a foreigner, Thomas Schirrmacher, as cited and now by myself, an English citizen, in this article. I can assure any reader that there are I believe numerous other factors which have likewise not been mentioned in print, either by the German author cited or by myself, and which I also believe quite evidently confirm the suggested extremely remarkable historical character of the Scottish memorial here in question at a European level. My thanks to any reader for their attention (perhaps we can get it sorted out before the centenary, 2014?).

PPS The Wikipedia is new by every minute in some parts, including this one over the past few days (July 2013). What has been removed in particular from the article itself (arguably relating to the Scottish National War Memorial created some years later, and therefore quite cearly I myself thinking part of a national and international intension and consequently therefore "Troops Killed as Martyrs for God" as cited elsewhere) is most unfortunately I believe [] carrying exclusively the year 1914 in relation to the German East Coast Raid of that year, also [] although relating to an event in 1915 in the town on the other direction, it having been created with 1914 title and geographically in the direction of the Scottish National War Memorial and the most evident and directly relating of course to the Scottish National War Memorial concerning people who join national military in particular in 1914 on an international level. The memorials of world wars are always national in one way or another whenever in particular local and here I believe in my age of seventies this is perhaps also in various ways international and since it is clearly international and religious not "national" at all in one sense and perhaps also with particular reference to one year, 1914, and preceding history in various ways, never unfortunately it seems considered as being the case at the present time in the 21st century and in particular since the Second world War, at least in our own country and in the meamtime, ladies and gentlemen, you may who knows perhaps on this same issue wish to see my contribution some time ago on a Talk Page concerning the 1914 issue in Europe as I have tried to describe it in relation to a title The Spirit of 1914 dealing only with Germany and it seems with no mention of any other country.

Soon we shall have 2014 and let us perhaps try to remember some of these things here. They will certainly remember elsewhere in other countries.

Peter Judge — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.30.172.78 (talk) 09:51, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Unreferenced speculation
I have today reverted a number of IP edits, presumed to have been added by Peter Judge. These have, once again, introduced highly speculative, wholly unreferenced material into the article. This material, relating to apparent coincidences in events and artistic forms, is described by the editor as "undocumented" and is therefore original research. Wikipedia's policy clearly states that "Wikipedia articles must not contain original research". While I appreciate that the coincidences are interesting, they are not suitable for an encyclopedia. I ask Mr Judge to read and understand Wikipedia's policies, and to please stop adding his personal speculations and observations to this article. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 11:15, 30 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I return this text. For its possible international significance including the United States please be careful and with some attention given the ultimate involvement on an official level of the United States see Spirit of 1914 as quoted.


 * For the rest, the general immediate relevance of these memorials (and also incidentally of other memorials that have not been mentioned) is made clear within the Shrine of the Scottish National War Memorial itself in an unbelievably significant fashion.


 * These matters will I believe eventually be sorted out at an international level, and I return this my text in the meantime. Please either leave it alone or discuss it on this particular Talk Page. Thank you my friend (others may well thank you too?).


 * Peter Judge — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.30.151.56 (talk) 14:15, 1 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi Peter. Did you take my advice and read Wikipedia's policies on verifiability and original research? These policies are at the core of Wikipedia, and guide those of us who edit. I removed your material as I believed, and still believe, that it is not verifiable with reference to published documentation. What is the significance of the "Spirit of 1914" link you cite above? It is just a photo of another war memorial in Edinburgh, that's all. What do you mean by "sorting this out at an international level"? This is something you have stated several times but I still have no idea what it is you want sorted. Please read the Wikipedia policies I refer to, and reconsider the material you have added. Regards, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 18:04, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I will suggest that unregistered editors who plan on returning to edit an article a lot set up an account. I, for one, am a lot more likely to UNDO annon edits than ones by registered editors because I can always write something on their user page. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 20:49, 1 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Much obliged, I thought after reading these very competent so far as Wikipedia is concerned comments by two appreciated persons (even if one of them has caused certain difficulties) that what I had contributed to this article had again been removed, but it seems this is not the case.
 * I have to admit that there is a very complicated issue from an historical and architectural view relating to the extraordinary history of our human beings in the matter of what was later called "world wars" and the millions of people who died, and here (in this absolutely extraordinary "Scottish National War Memorial") it is in the most extraordinary fashion I believe also related to what humans are in terms of the world and the universe as well, and this with particular reference I can assure you also to the sea through connection with other architecture throughout Europe it being the case that this can easily be confirmed by the measurement of maps in relationn to architecture both in the UK and in Europe in relation to the beginning of the 20th century and of course the later so-called "first" World War that personally I find a perhaps not a completely unique historical event but with a particular form due to the development of politics and of course the (particularly British combined with Rule, Britannia! itself questionable in terms of certain theories concerning international law unfortunately) industrialism itself the direct result of certain political developments.
 * Now how important for most people is history anyway? Perhaps too complicated, the significance I suggest is however its relation to present politics, and I must refer to these difficulties if without giving details for the time being.
 * I note everything that has been said meantime and I shall be considering the suggestion that I should get registered here for the reason that is given, which is very clearly a good one (but we shall have to see how it goes).
 * Please give me a little time to get this sorted out before anyone removes my contribution to this article again! Thank you, au revoir gentlemen, and I close with regards. In the meantime, I would (instead perhaps of that suggested!) much appreciate any comments to my own e-mail which can of course be made clear right here if it is required by anyone!
 * Peter Judge — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.30.172.79 (talk) 09:51, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

"Coverage and accuracy" (as according to the official section above)
Sorry this evident requirement is supposed not to have been met either by myself or by others in general.

In my own view its entirely complicated in the present situation after the two world wars last century.

Is it possible to sort out at all? Thus in the Talk article on the West Hartlepool War Memorial, an absolutely extraordinary First World War memorial relating to the whole history of the British Empire as well as to the First World War, I once quoted from the 1949 book by the absolutely extraordinary George Orwell a passage which I consider is extraordinarily relevant on this sort of issue, alas, as I have unfortunately been able to confirm, as follows:

"What is 'history', exactly, and how does it relate to our everyday concerns, if at all? The past, the present, and the future or perhaps a different way round (words as quoted by Michael Linch at page xv of his work Scotland, A New History, a remarkable book published in 1991): Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past, this having been said in a book by George Orwell about what at the time of its publication (the Second World War) was of course the future, being entitled Nineteen Eighty-four."

Perhaps the most extraordinary particular issue in our own country seems to be the complete indifference to the world as a whole as resulting from the world wars last century. This at least was it seems the evident character amongst the politicians and the government as a whole after the Second World War at least in my own opinion and I understand how very difficult everthing was.

Ladies and gentlemen, we shall now with the world wars centenaries have to see how it does manage to go ahead at a national and European level, including in a particular form so far as the First World War is concerned supposed details which by myself alone so far as I am aware can be given here if wanted or perhaps even required, it relating also to this Scottish National War Memorial and even to the United States in the First World War in my own sole opinion so far as I am aware but with certain I believe confirmable elements relating to the historical rchitecture and maps.

We shall have to see in Europe perhaps, for there is indeed complicated matters everywhere alas. Thank you.

PS So far as the "West Hartlepool War Memorial" as cited here in Wikipedia is concerned unfortunately it is made clear on another article section on this matter (the site )that absolutely everything said by both the local authority in what is now a single Hartlepool and what incidentally currentlyly (2013) is said here in Wikipedia is complete dangerous nonsense on the basis of the evidence so far as the creation of the two war memorials and other matters relating directly to the 1914 East Coast Raid in the "Hartlepools" is concerned, see the remarkable and large featured cite mentioned making such references on the website quoted, in particular those interested may see what is perhaps the most relevant paragraph beginning with the words "The principal feature of one section in historic (East) Hartlepool of a memorial designed by Philip Bennison is a statue which is described in the local press as a 'winged figure in bronze' representing 'Triumphant Youth' (Northern Daily Mail 17 December 1921 a copy of which is included within a public document, the minutes of Hartlepool Borough Council, December 1921, held at Teeside Archives ) being in a separate but related town with believe it or not what I personally suggest is all sorts of immediately relevant official conemporary matters on the war memorials of the 'Hartlepools' as they were at the time of their creation in the 1920s (one of thse particular memorials having of course been cited towards the conclusion in this article here on the Scottish National War Memorial with further direct evidence of its actual character as against what is clearly I think said elsewhere unfortunately at least for the time being and for whatever reason since the 1980s, this could eventually be a matter for some sort of reference to the relevant attempt to get it sorted out at a national level by myself if by nobody else, in the meantime I thank you ladies and gentlemen for any possible assistance, thanks very much again for how on earth are we going to sort these matters out given the numerous difficulties at a national level, but I repeat it has I believe also international significance together with the coming further commemorations presumably at a European level, for the wars were of course also European. . Au revoir, we shall see (for some information on what was the "Hartlepools" contact either Hartlepool itself at the local authority or perhaps even better Exchange House, 6 Marton Road, Middlesbrough, TS1 1DB, telephone (01642)248321, fax 248391, some excellent publicly available people).

Peter Judge — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.17.60.13 (talk) 05:27, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Once again I find the substance of these comments to be wholly elusive. You previously requested "a little time to get this sorted out", this was over 7 months ago and nothing appears to have emerged to support your views. It has also come to my attention that "the person editing by an IP and signing with the name Peter Judge" has been banned from editing Wikipedia by community consensus: see . I have therefore removed your contrubitions and requested that the article is protected from editing by non-registered users. May I suggest that you find an outlet other than Wikipedia for your speculations? Regards, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 11:31, 23 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Now this is your own complete nonsense sir together with others I am afraid within Wikipedia alas who unfortunately, as I have discovered, cannot even be identified even if you can be identified yourself and which talk nonsense on matters relating to the world history and consequently also to the Scottish National War Memorial. I have now cited the place where you can confirm all this on the basis of legally valid evidence. Given what you have done today I shall therefore quote the immediate issue on the very useful government matter here cited by myself (the "Teesside Archives Department" with full details given) on "DC H - Minutes 1916-1972") concerning historic Hartlepool on page 494 which reads as follows on the war memorial to which I have referred with the suggestion that it could be with others connected with the Scottish National War Memorial and incidentally the date 1914 and the East Coast Raid, namely as follows: "A letter from Alderman Graham suggesting that the Tablet offered Mr John Sanderson to make the spot where the first shell struck and to record the position where the first soldier was killed during the Bombardment, should be unveiled by Colonel Robson CMG DSO and formally handed over to the Corporation by the donor, having been read". What is shown on war memorial is incidentally therefore a male figure wich can be shown in various ways to relate to the Scottish National War Memorial in particular with a Latin cross even if it is some distance ago, and which has therefore absolutely nothing whatsoever at all to do with what you in Wikipedia describe it, as a Greek goddess of a "Winged Victory or in any event a male figure in some way relating to it neither of these things being possible. WWhat you say here and what has been done by the relevant local authority since the Second World War is consequently complete nonsense I am afraid, with possible international issues involved as I have suggested.


 * Indeed I understand that the people who control this sort of matter under law have never contradicted and consequently recorded change of this Wikipedia. I have to note you in advance that unless you or some other official person put this place back to within its original form by replacing what has been removed this and other issues will be copied by myself to both the Scottish National War Memorial governors and perhaps also, unless they have some objection which makes sense, to the government as well.


 * How strange all this will be during the centenaries of the world wars in the UK perhaps, and you Sir are largely responsible I am afraid, since I was hoping to avoid all this. I hope in these circumstances the rest will be left intact for as long as possible, I have had numerous things removed over many years, and the nonsense you quote on this particular war memorial is I quote complete rubbish, something which incidentally is directly said elsewhere in the Internet.


 * What will possibly be a shame about Wikipedia I am afraid on a matter of international significance relating to religion and war as stated on the section quoted from now by myself from the government.


 * Please think about it, Sir. The two world wars in question will I think be generally understood (by some more than others of course and in some countries more than in others)as forever complete nightmare (certainly they are to myself together with the way we now deal with the memorials in the UK). I note what you say about the possibility of getting something published. It will be, if made, on an international level. Meanwhile you are perhaps lucky by saying nothing whatsoever at all about the clear relevance of the Scottish National War memorial with various memorials elsewhere,that which is entirely evident due to matters available on the Internet as previously mentioned here by myself, and made available.


 * "Au revoir" very unlikely indeed to this Wikipedia in any country itself I mean unless (I repeat) something reasoable is done to restore what is now removed is done within the period of twenty working days by whichever person or persons, to whom I shall duly thank and who will be incidentally kept informed if this book is published, as soon as possible (they can then refer it to your own Scottish National War Memorial site of course if they think it useful since such matter will probably be published anyway but I cannot say when and it will incidentally be made available to the dome correct notions about this war memorial are contained I also repeat elsewhere in the Internet, for example on directly related UK monarchy whoever they are at that time as well as to the Scottish National War Memorial itself of course).

PS I am afraid that I have to repeat that what you at the present time publish under Redheugh Gardens War Memorial is unfortunately complete nonsense even if it is what is at the present time confirmed in the minutes of the local authority (Hartlepool). Please ladies and gentlemen see some correct information also on the Internet in the conclusing paragraph on the astonishing site and this I am afraid evident nonsense will also have to be considered by yourselves and I hope either sufficiently corrected or removed altogether before I ever contact you again in any way, given that you have never provided any attention whatsoever to what I have myself told you on this particular matter over a long period of time. I repeat also in conclusion that these are very possibly significant issues given the coming centenary of the world wars.


 * Peter Judge — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.108.107.130 (talk) 12:57, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Church_Army
In the official article in Talk:Church Army in Wikipedia as given on the subject detail of this my own further edit on Talk on this matter it is at the present time officially said "This article (Church Army) has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale" and this notwithstanding that Russia has completely in the government as from the start in 1917 chosen to remove it as had previously been made clear in well known publications as made available throughout Europe.

I hope very much myself all will go well for myself so that I can make clear on this Talk Page on Scottish National War Memorial what is quite certainly thanks to evidence the direct relevance at the time of the Church Army in the UK after the First World War to the Scottsh National War Memorial and all this at a European level and therefore, all this being something directly related to what is now for all concerned the coming centenary of the First World War and this I hope I shall be able to do it here not later than by March 2014 (unless somebody wants it for whatever reason for it to be finished sometime even earlier?).

I hope in any event I shall manage to do this at whatever time, and in the meatnime I have myself quoted one what seems to be a directly related available publication as cited on "Talk on Church Army" (author Alan Wilkinson, "The Church of England and the First World War", London, SCM Press, 1996) although I have not I am afraid as yet managed to read this at all myself (but I hope I shall perhaps manage to do so).

Now this (which is indeed a very great and significant confusion ladies and gentlemen) was later of course resulting fromt the Second World War and nothing at all has apparently been done to sort it out by what is our own government (it never has done so far as I know myself, but again it is a very great confusion and therefore extremely difficilt).

The First World War soldiers lived, some of them died, they are remembered (and au revoir, I hope!).

PS. "Today’s announcement follows a speech in October 2012 by the Prime Minister David Cameron where he set out the UK’s approach to marking the centenary" as detailed on the website https://www.gov.uk/government/news/maria-miller-sets-out-how-government-will-mark-first-world-war-centenary-in-2014. I haven't read this myself so far but in any event how is all this going to end ... for myself it is indeed a very a major problem on account of certain difficult history problems now already indicated in a shorter way right here. I shall not myself I think ever actually alas with any problems contain government. It would probably I think lead me to nothing at all I am afraid, and I unerstand the difficulties in fact existing on the part of the government itself as (I repaat)indicated here and indcluding in particular the history of the Scottish National War Memorial itself ... and this goes back to the Second World War. Thank you Wikipedia for allowing me to make these unfortunately very personal points which I repeat again refer in my own opinion for what that may be worth to Europe in general including in particular for various reasons extremely significant Russian and Germann history as from the First World War in particular. PJ

84.13.92.200 (talk) 19:37, 3 December 2013 (UTC)Peter Judge

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