Talk:Scottish New Zealanders

Someone please remind me
Could someone please remind me why Australian Russell Crowe is included in this article about Scottish New Zealanders. Should we create Irish New Zealander, Norwegian New Zealander, Welsh New Zealander and English New Zealander articles for him as well? Are categories not enough? Doesn't Wikipedia look rather juvenile including Crowe in this article? I will remove him in a day or so unless a compelling rationale for inclusion is posted here.. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 21:06, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps because he was born in New Zealand, and spent large parts of his early life there, and is related to several NZ sportsman. What's more he has Maori ancestry, and has registered as a Maori voter. So he is as NZ as Australian, if not more so. These days he probably spends most of his time in the USA.


 * Actually there should be an English New Zealander article, but they can't disentangle themselves from the "British" thing.--MacRusgail (talk) 16:26, 30 September 2009 (UTC) p.s. Are you aware of the difficulty of actually getting photos of people who are contemporary and well known on Wikipedia? What are you going to achieve other than trashing the infobox, because you dislike the man for some reason?
 * 1. Over time, consensus has taken us to the point where the Crowe article opens with "Russell Ira Crowe (born 7 April 1964) is an Australian actor and musician." (my emphasis). 2. Māori ancestry doesn't automatically create citizenship -- many  Māori have never visited New Zealand. 3. Re your misquote, registered as a Maori voter,  citation was requested for this unreferenced claim about two years ago and then again last year, and as it hasn't materialised I have removed the claim. 4. What has difficulty of obtaining images got to do with anything? The efficacy of Wiki's information is exponentially more important than how a page looks. If a person doesn't qualify to feature in an article, then they shouldn't feature in it. 5. I don't like or dislike Crowe, and don't select Wiki articles to edit based on who the articles are about. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 22:43, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Did it ever strike you that the man could even be BOTH NZer and Australian? (Shock horror) It's not a case of either/or, necessarily. As for the Maori ancestry - you're being disingenuous here. Crowe was born in New Zealand, spent the first four years of his life there (meaning presumably his first memories would be of NZ as well), and spent a large chunk of his school years in New Zealand between fourteen and twenty one. I think that counts as a bit more than just a "visit". His cousins also captained NZ's cricket team. Like I said, I suspect he probably spends most of his time in the USA these days anyway.

"The efficacy of Wiki's information is exponentially more important than how a page looks."


 * And it helps garner interest if at least one of the pictures is of someone internationally famous. None of the other three are known outside NZ really, even if they are presumably well known within it. (I'd only heard of the various PMs vaguely before researching this article). Appearance is very important.--MacRusgail (talk) 15:41, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "The efficacy of Wiki's information is exponentially more important than how a page looks."
 * Right, I should trademark that. Information is more important than appearance any day. This encyclopedia could usefully function without any images at all, but never with images alone. Now, if someone does not continue to qualify primarily as X then, ergo.......... Do you think the   Category:Naturalised citizens of Australia  on the Crowe page indicates he consciously chose to become an okker. Is Prince Philip Greek because he was born in Greece? Is he Greek Orthodox because he was baptised as Greek Orthodox? Is he French because he spent more time as a young child in France than Crowe ever did in New Zealand? How precisely do Jeff and Martin Crowe influence cuzzie Russsell's citizenship anywhere. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 01:39, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Why can't he be both? By the way, Prince Phillip is nicknamed Phil the Greek--MacRusgail (talk) 14:14, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If both, then why not all? Why doesn't the intro state Crowe is of New Zealand, Australian, Irish, Scottish, Norwegian, Welsh, Irish descent........? How pathetic that would be, but not much surprises me about the cruft in Wikipedia these days. How on earth does Hugh Watt fit into this list of NZ Prime Ministers of Scottish descent?
 * Phil The Greek? A very important nickname indeed. Not. Doesn't get a mention in his article because it is meaningless, irrelevant and totally inaccurate for a person who left the country as an infant, and later renounced Prince of Greece and became Prince of The United Kingdom. Some also say he is German because he was formerly  a member of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. He renounced that too, (but we shouldn't spoil specious arguments with facts). Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 00:01, 4 October 2009 (UTC)


 * "Phil the Greek" is used all the time in the UK media, notably Private Eye and the tabloids. One thing's for sure, he's not the real Duke of Edinburgh, since that group of English imposters have little or nothing to do with the proper Scottish royal line. Betty is around 50th in line to the Scottish throne, and only has it by virtue of religious discrimination and the current status of Scotland. As for the nickname, here's a few examples from mainstream sources: Britannia dot com, CBC, The Scotsman, The Mirror


 * It's even on a Kiwi Blog! List of nicknames of European royalty and nobility: P-Q


 * Again I would remind you, if you remove Crowe's picture all there will be is a bunch of pictures of people who are barely known outside New Zealand. Internationally famous New Zealanders (other than rugby players and a couple of pop groups) are thin on the ground, and trying to actually get a picture of one of these people diminishes that group even more.


 * I don't see why someone could not be both Aussie and Kiwi, you haven't explained that one. You've just got a bee in your bonnet about Crowe, who's probably more American than anything else these days. Just because he crossed the Tasman doesn't mean he completely ceased to have any New Zealand background. Dislike Crowe all you want, but the info is referenced, he comes from New Zealand originally and talks about his Scottish ancestry.--MacRusgail (talk) 13:16, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Both? Read WP:MOSBIO. His own article says he is Australian, in accordance with WP:MOSBIO, so I am removing him from this one. The shallowness of this article is truly amazing. Remember, it is called "Scottish New Zealander". Playing a sport for Scotland hardly makes a Kiwi a Scottish New Zealander, so I am removing the irrelevant Kilted Kiwis cruft section. I am also removing Kate Sheppard (per WP:MOSBIO), who was born in England, educated in Ireland and later became notable in New Zealand. Janet Frame too. Check her article. Scottish is mentioned only once, in relation to her parents, not her. Other inclusions like Forbes, Marshall, Kirk and Watt which I have removed from the Prime Ministers section are patently silly. Will have to come back for a closer look at this when I have time. I don't like/dislike Crowe, Frame, Sheppard or Forbes et al. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 03:07, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Remind me again what your original point was, other than making this article completely uninteresting, and unreadable? No doubt you'll be removing the section on Dunedin next.

As for Janet Frame, I've just been looking at her bloody autobiography in a bookshop round the corner, which mentions it.

Talking about pruning an article down to the roots... --MacRusgail (talk) 15:16, 5 October 2009 (UTC) p.s. Both of Kate Shepard's parents were Scottish you muppet.

Kaiwhakahaere, your edits reflect your personal opinion, not that of MOSBIO - including your bizarre, and frankly slightly weird dislike of Russell Crowe. Please differentiate between the two.

Kate Sheppard and the Kilted Kiwis apply here, since they have recent Scottish ancestry. You are deliberately pushing your personal POV and trying to twist Wikipedia's rules in order to do so. Also the removal of NZ census figures is not helpful either and cannot be justified.--MacRusgail (talk) 16:07, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080718000429/http://www.highlanders-rugby.co.nz:80/page.pasp?pageid=2 to http://www.highlanders-rugby.co.nz/page.pasp?pageid=2

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 * ✔️ Confirmed as correct. Thanks, Cyberbot II. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:02, 26 January 2016 (UTC)