Talk:Scottish cuisine

Title?
All other articles on aspects of Scottish life follow the form of "X or/in Scotland," save Scots law. What do folks think of the title of the current article? Canæn 03:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The Wikipedia convention is that things associated with people and culture are named "fooish x", and other things are named "x of foo". The std for cuisine, which is cultural, is "fooish", see Category:Cuisine by nationality and Category:Categories by nationality. --Mais oui! 07:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I was following the French cuisine, German cuisine convention when I created this article (although there are still some articles such as Cuisine of Morocco which do not follow this) Nach0king 12:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Food quality
"Hearty Scots food rich in Meats and Fats". I take it someone here has mistaken the modern "mechanically reclaimed meat" and chippie diet for traditional "scran". Real Scots food, high as it is in dairy products, is as healthy a diet as one can get. With a large part of carbohydrate, essential fats and proteins. "Hearty" to me conjures images of Stews, Broths, Game pies, Stovies, Collops, Cullen Skink, Roast Game, Black bun, Crowtowdie, Atholl Brose with Raspberries, not to mention Chicken Jalfrezi, or the Chieftain o' the puddins. It is a failure of Scots society in the 20/21st c. to appreciate this. This results in most of our quality produce being sent abroad where they appreciate it, and importation of produce of dubious merit here where we couldn't care less supposedly. A vicious cycle emerges, when we are too lazy and lethargic to prepare decent food and rely on shoddy ready-meals and takeaways, thereby lowering our energy levels further. Right, rant over and my kebab awaits.

Balance
Seriously, can we try not to go along with the sick man of Europe line, it doesn't seem to be within the remit of this article. Scots food is as diverse as any in Europe and little known apart from Haggis. Surely health issues should be discussed elsewhere, and this page reserved for the joys of Gigot of Mutton, Cock-a -Leekie etc.? Brendandh 23:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I think using this article to describe Scottish cuisine in its ideal form, or as you think it should be, is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Hearty was perhaps a poor choice of word on my part but there's no denying that the failure of Scottish society, as you put it, is very much a real one and a recognition of the atrocious state of the Scottish diet is 100% needed in an article on the Scottish cuisine. Do you honestly think that Cullen Skink and Crowtowdie are more indicative of the everyday diet of your average Scot than, say, a Scotch pie or a pizza crunch? I certainly don't and I think the vast majority of people and printed/web sources based in Scotland, at least in the West, would agree.

There is certainly room to discuss the proud elements of Scottish cuisine but to attempt to "not go along with the sick man of Europe" line is, I'm sorry to say, an attempt not to go along with reality. Nach0king 10:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe that there is room for both in this article. I encourage you to Be Bold!, and write gloriously yourself of the wonders of Scottish cuisine. That said, I think that health problems, if they're prevalent or particularly severe, should be mentioned. [[Image:Flag of Scotland.svg|27px]] Canæn [[Image:Flag of Scotland.svg|27px]] 06:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I tried to clarify it a bit by pointing out that many traditional dishes are in fact good for you; the soups and potages that would feed whole familiies would be rather low in meat and fats, instead using lots of root vegetables, barley etc. But the health problems here *are* severe, as referenced, and I think the article should reflect this. In fact I'd arrange it thus:
 * Traditional, hearty Scottish fare that may be fattening due to locally-available ingredients and a cold climate, but is characterised mostly by its reliance on local crops, with meat sometimes used only for stock or at least sparingly.
 * Many Scots eat very badly, with chips forming the basis for many if not most meals. The availability of fast food and the decline of big family soup-esque dinners that we may have eaten 100 years ago contributes to this.
 * However, in common with much of the UK and Europe in general, a growing number of people are trying new things, returning to fresh fruit and vegetables (this seems to be happening a lot more recently) and recognising the importance of a healthy diet. While a lot of this is based around salads and so on that cannot be considered traditional, there's still a place for traditional Scottish food here: a dish of salmon, potatoes and a green vegetable can be sourced locally pretty much no matter where you are in Scotland.


 * I think this puts across the reality of the situation - that the Scots diet is poor - whilst recognising that it was not always this way and - hopefully - will not always be this way. Any objections? (Oh, and I took "hearty" out, as I agree now that it was a very poor choice of word from me - sorry!) Nach0king 13:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. I think there should be an explanation however that the chippy diet was one borne out of social deprivation, decline of the nuclear family etc. and the various consequences of that, and that has not been helped by the arrival in the 1970's of Big Macs etc. which presented the fast food diet to a larger section of society than before. (In fact I suppose "Heart-y" is a good word when you consider all the cholesterol filling up the coronary arteries of our compadres!) ;-) I also however think that there is scope for explaining the historic diets of the grander Scots country houses, and how that has affected modern Scots restaurant cheffing et. al. and the influence that that has had on generally Metropolitan (ie Edinburgh and Glasgow) tastes at home over this and the later part of last century and the expansion of that palate into the rest of Scotland. Now, that might be considered have vague overtones of Urbanite snobbery, but not so. I think it's imperative in this article to explain the bad, but also to extol the good. I don't know whether it is a good idea or no to include a section on the overdrinking in this country. It is probably a grey area, booze being something to accompany food as well as for a saturday night! Anyway good luck with the edits, I'll chuck in my pennys worth from time to time.Brendandh 05:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Those are good ideas and your recent edits are excellent. I totally agree that we should cover the good and bad - after all, we're aiming for neutrality here and both are extant. I'll include a section on drink soon (unless someone else does it first) and while it'll of course cover binging it'll also mention, say, the vast array of whiskys for which Scotland is world famous. Nach0king 22:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

If you read the English cuisine article, there is little mention of poor diet, when it is also one of the worst in Europe. So why is this issue of diet and health so prominient in the Scottish cuisine article but not in the others? IManOM (talk) 11:59, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


 * In Scotland, there are the dual pernicious afflictions of class snobbery and poverty. The former explains the sneering tone of almost anthropological disapproval of the Scottish diet; and the latter explains the diet's worst excesses. Would the diet of the people improve were poverty to be removed? Undoubtedly; if only because the populace would retire to air-conditioned restaurants to do their victualising. Were class snobbery removed, the snobs would be removed from our sight; and good riddance to them.


 * Nuttyskin (talk) 18:20, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Scottish breakfast
Forgive me if this has been raised before. Accordingly with the subject I REALLY do have a big greasy caledonian chip on my shoulder. Surely this is within the remit of Scottish cuisine, not as a byblow of English/UK culturally imperialistic opinion, viz. all the chat about the Scots Tung being a dialect of English. Full English Breakfast surely has its place, (obviously without those dodgy American Hash Browns shewn in the illustration for the so-called English Breakfast :)), But Scotland is the home of the Black pudding, at least in the last hundred or so years, just as Ireland is home to the White pudding, not to mention Scotland's wonderful Square sausage, tattie scone, dumpling, and the recent arrival of haggis as a morning bite.(dubious however, as it's a bit of a "We're different" token). Let's see who has the best coronaries in these islands. I think our menu is far better qualified to stand on its own rather than perch on the back of a Saxon Greasy-spoons menu. Brendandh 00:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

NPOV
In my opinion the current article is not written in a neutral point of view. One paragraph in particular concerns me.

In the following I dont know what can be salvaged fom the above or whether it would be better to delete the whole quoted piece. All views welcome. GameKeeper 23:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Scotland, in common with the other parts of the British Isles suffered during the twentieth century. Rationing during the conflicts that affected that period, and large scale industrial agriculture limited the diversity of food available to the public. During the latter part of the century, the greater part of Scottish 'quality' produce was exported, and inferior imported. The fruits of Scotland's seas gracing European restaurants, whilst children in Glasgow were eating processed American Fish fingers and other processed foods. Scotland suffered under the UK wide BSE and Foot and Mouth legislation, when it was hardly affected. One result of this however, is that Scottish meat is now considered one of the safest on the planet as a result of the stringent controls in place 
 * 1) None of the references show that the majority of quality scottish food is exported, or that inferior was imported.
 * 2) The referencegiven does not show that glasgows children were eating American fish fingers.
 * 3) Is there any need to say American fish fingers wouldn't simply processed food, as backed up by the reference be enough.
 * 4) The phrasing is delibrately emotive, contrasting the 'fruits of Scotland's seas' in 'European restaurants' with childrens food.
 * 5) The references for Scottish meat is now considered one of the safest on the planet come from the National Farmers union of Scotland, The Quality meat standards board of scotland which cannot be considered as unbiased sources. The final reference is from the UK government 'Food Standard agenecy' and does not mention scotish specifically ,except to say a scotish goat may have had BSE and in general says 'Currently there have been more cases in the UK than anywhere else in the world' which suggests the opposite of the quoted statement.


 * I totally agree with your changes (although I've cleaned it up a little and in fact removed a little more). If such info is to be included it needs to be cited throughout and written in more neutral tones. Thanks for dealing with it. Nach0king 14:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Re-merge British cuisine articles
The cuisine articles (of Britain) originally started out as British cuisine but for presumably nationalistic reasons someone decided to split out Scottish, Welsh and Irish/Northern Irish and rename the old British article to English cuisine. I think this was a mistake. There is so much crossover here that it makes sens to discuss them all together and then have subsections explaining English/Scots/Welsh/Irish/Cornish etc specialities. I was particularly annoyed when someone removed references to the fact that "Britain became a net importer of food" from the English cuisine article because they, they said in the edit summary "British isn't English", they also removed referenced to Gordon Ramsay because he was born in Scotland. This is where it becomes plain silly and the problem would be solved by simply remerging the articles. Jooler (talk) 16:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Naw.


 * More on this here.
 * Mutt Lunker 20:11, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The only "nationalistic reasons" detectible in this discussion are in the motives of Jooler. That person's argument would make sense if there actualy were an identifiably "British" character to cookery in Britain; but there isn't. To be sure, recipes from any part of Britain can readily be found beimg made use of in any other part; and although "cross-pollination" from different regions is both possible and likely, those recipes do not ever lose their original Welsh, Geordie, Yorkshire, Irish or indeed Scottish character.


 * Nuttyskin (talk) 13:44, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Chicken tikka masala etc.
It is widely and citably claimed, whether correct or not, that chicken tikka masala has its origins in Scotland. This has a place in the article. It is currently listed in the section Traditional Scottish foods. What is the cut-off point for "traditional"? As the article is Scottish cuisine should the section simply be "Scottish foods"? Should there instead be separate lists of traditional and (more) modern Scottish foods (the newer cheeses, Tayberries and the pan loaf, already listed; other fusion foods such as haggis pakora; deep fried Mars bars)? Should the section "Scottish beverages" be listed as "Traditional Scottish beverages" for consistency or divided into traditional and modern? Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:09, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Tika masala is not a traditional food. Listing it under traditonal makes the list looks stupid and idiotic. Make a seperate list for foods created by recent immigrants to Scotland. --Bob247 (talk) 05:23, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Lanark Blue should also be removed as with anything else which is not passed down through the generations. Alternatively, rename the section foods invented and consumed in Scotland. --Bob247 (talk) 05:47, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

In an article about Scottish cuisine, the inclusion of a popular dish which, at the very least, is verifiably claimed to have Scottish origins is not "stupid and idiotic". Its inclusion in a list of traditional foods may well be more debatable but if we were to have two lists, there is a problem with deciding what the demarcation of traditional or otherwise is. Per beverages, a solution could simply be to drop the designation "traditional" from the list.

Is your view that Lanark Blue should be removed just in regard to a "Traditional Scottish foods" list or from the article altogether? The article is on Scottish cuisine, as a whole, not just those "passed down through the generations". Whether it's in that list or not, it has a place in the article. Would you like the beverage list to make similar exclusions? Would Irn Bru be "traditional" then? Neeps were still a relatively new and exotic vegetable well into the 19th century but is that old enough to be traditional? The pan loaf, in distinction to the plain loaf, was regarded as novel, posh and exotic not much before (and possibly well after) chicken tikka masala came on the scene. Is it traditional or for the immmigrant (English?) list? On which subject, I would regard a dish created in or notably adopted in Scotland as equally worthy of inclusion whether the creator was from an immigrant community or not. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:28, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Content
Cuisine and diet are two separate issues. Fast food is not Scottish Cuisine even if it is part of the Scottish diet. This article confuses the two and so talk about chips and big macs ought to be removed. IManOM (talk) 11:52, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Red links
There are a lot of red-links in the list of Scottish Food's - I hope no one has been making stuff up or adding their own "home recipes" to the list. Every country has...interesting cuisine names but I just want to check! --Τασουλα (talk) 16:36, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * You're right. There were three entries in the cakes/breads section that looked particularly suspicious.  I removed all the red links.  Rojomoke (talk) 12:22, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Heather Ale
As an American, I have no idea what Heather Ale is, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it isn't a character in Irish mythology. Right now, Heather Ale links to Fraoch, which redirects to Fráech who is a hero from the Ulster cycle in Irish mythology but whose article has a small note at the bottom that says that "Fraoch is also the name of the heather ale of the picts". This doesn't really seem helpful at all. I'd clean it up myself, but I don't know anything about Heather Ale. Should it perhaps just be linked to the page on Beer in Scotland? KeithyIrwin (talk) 07:13, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Unhappy with lead
I'm not happy with the last paragraph of the lead, which reads;

'Scottish cuisine is enjoying a renaissance[when?]. In most towns, Chinese and Indian take-away restaurants exist alongside traditional fish and chip shops. In larger towns and cities the cuisine may also include Thai, Japanese, Mexican, Pakistani, Polish and Turkish cuisines.'

Apart from the fact that it partially contradicts the description given in the first two paragraphs, I think it misses the point. Indian, Chinese, etc, takaways/restaurants are not 'Scottish cuisine'; they're examples of Indian and Chinese cuisine, which happen to be available in Scotland. There are examples of Indo-Scottish fusion food (an dpossibly others too) which would warrant inclusion, but for now I'd like to remove the whole paragraph. Comments anyone? Santa Suit (talk) 18:43, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Other than casual observation I am not in a position to verify or otherwise the first sentence (and in the former vein things have certainly improved). However I am not sure the intention here was to corroborate the first with the second sentence. Perhaps the meaning this intends to convey is that "In addition, most towns ... and that these have in turn influenced the native fare". The dubious Munchy box would seem to be in this category for instance. I am entirely lacking in hard copy sources on the subject I am afraid. Ben   Mac  Dui  19:11, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

brach/brack?
I have a recipe for Welsh Bahn Brach, and one for Irish Barm Brack. Is there a Scottish version? Just an idle question. 71.163.114.49 (talk) 17:55, 17 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I haven't tried either of them, but going by the search-engine pictures, the Scottish equivalent would seem to be what we call dumpling, or possibly Jock's Loaf (Jock pronounced like joke). Both are fruited breads, but only the latter has actually a baked crust.
 * Nuttyskin (talk) 17:31, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Removing red links
A user has twice removed some red links for items that could feasibly and usefully have an article. I requested that they familiarise themself with WP:REDLINK but from their most recent edit summary it would seem they did not. Please restore the links or explain why WP:REDNO would apply here. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:29, 20 January 2020 (UTC)


 * You have changed the links to something else, rather than restore them; not what you were requested. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:58, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Changes to lead
I, and other editors, have reverted persistant good-faith changes to the lead by User talk:JJNito197; to maintain continuity with other articles and because TripAdvisor is not a place to promote personal agendas. If there are objections to the current format, please raise them here first, instead of edit-warring. Obscurasky (talk) 10:12, 23 January 2020 (UTC)


 * I would say that my only agenda is to highlight the positive aspects to 'Scottish Cuisine' whilst helping elevate this potentially into a good article. If you are not editing this constructively and only to maintain the status quo, then I would say you are not helping this article. This doesn't need to be in continuity with other articles, Scotlands cusine is different from Wales and Wales is different from Englands. For example the opening caption on each photo - Afternoon tea in traditional English style at the Rittenhouse Hotel, Philadelphia is different from Welsh cakes, and Haggis, neeps and tatties.


 * I have changed the main photo from Haggis to Scottish kippers for 3 reasons aligined with the opening sentence - 1. its a specific set of cooking traditions, (eating in the morning, cold smoked) 2. It shows practices (split in a butterfly fashion from tail to head) 3. Its a cuisine specifically associated with Scotland. On the second paragraph, the opening sentence begins with 'Scotland's natural larder' this shows as it is stocked in a luxury goods store, Harrods, the quality of produce (fish) coming from Scotland is renowned across its borders, not just localised within its borders like lets say, Haggis.


 * Mutt Lunker and I went back and forth but I ceded because I saw that he had best interests and was right - whilst working at improving content on this page. JJNito197 (talk) 10:52, 23 January 2020 (UTC)


 * To note, whether the status quo prevails in the end or not, per WP:BRD that is where this article stays unless and until the contested change gains consensus here. Please stop restoring the contested change while this discussion is under way.


 * Your points 1, 2 and 3 apply to haggis at least equally as much and in the case of 3, infinitely more so. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:24, 23 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Note taken, the point is the photo of the kippers shows it being split, reversed, and brined all which show different culinary practices, all which summarise the sentence cooking traditions, practices and cuisines, whilst also including the second paragraph Scotland's natural larder of game, dairy products, fish. I originally was looking for another photo of Haggis to put there as the current photo was posted 13+ years ago. This doesn't mean that haggis shoudn't be there, you can include the Kippers in after the haggis photo at the top, or vice-versa, having both there shows different culinary practises both noticible as quintessential scottish dishes, equally renowned. The fact the kippers were stocked in Harrods shows that it is considered by some a luxury delicacy whilst also being a staple in Scotland, altogther reiterating the fact that scotland has a variety of fresh, local ingredients for luxury consumption, not just haggis as some are led to believe.


 * I think Obscurasky wants to maintain the same template as others (one photo) which I think is unjust as the English cuisine photo is much larger and rather than having faggots (food) or dishes alike, It has a rather glamorised depiction of upper class, victorian tea customs. JJNito197 (talk) 12:23, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Syboe—from ciboule
The Scots word for spring onion is Syboes (pronounced sigh bees), a mass noun invariable as to Number; and this is the plant's Latin name (derived from Greek). It's perfectly possible, however, that ciboule comes in parallel from the same Classical source. Nuttyskin (talk) 13:53, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

You're overlooking that it's reliably cited, and the source indeed gives cagoule as the etymology. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:23, 3 October 2021 (UTC)