Talk:Scouting in displaced persons camps

Links here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/DP-Scouts

Issues

 * 1) Is "DP-Scouts" what people call it or was it a formal organization? I think you're not supposed to have abbreviations in the title. May need to change it to Displaced Person-Scouts.
 * 2) "Cornell Wilson" links to wrong person (a black US Marine who may not have even been alive in th 1940s)-corrected-Phips 13:50, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) The first line is fancruft and needs to go ("The Scouting movement is resilient, and serves to give youth a positive outlet for energy in even the most trying of circumstances")
 * 4) Make the lead summarize the rest of the article
 * 5) What is Styria?- Styria is a federal state of Austria, borders to Slovenia and the federal states Carinthia, Burgenland, Lower Austria, Upper Austria and Salzburg (state).-Phips 13:50, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 6) needs more prose added, much of it is listy
 * 7) More of the American internment camps had Scout units than Granada.
 * 8) you don't link things in section titles, you work that into the prose and link it there
 * 9) opening paragraph needs to fit in bolded subject 18:38, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Congrats on starting a very interesting article on an important aspect, albeit little known, aspect of Scouting. Rlevse 11:40, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply-the first line was written as there was no header when I got here and I needed to set a raison d'etre. I didn't say it was a good one, and that is why it is still in the workshop. Also, I know there are more camps than just the one. I simply added what I was aware of. Look at the edit history, it has come a long way. Chris 15:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Fort Devens
Since this was a POW camp, I curious about it having a Scout group. Are you saying this had German youths in the camp? This article has a lot of potential and I've set a watch on it. It's also very interesting. It'll make a fine DYK submission when we go live with it.Rlevse 15:13, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

So I added what I know.-Phips 16:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, it was young soldiers of age for what today is called Venturing, Exploring, Rovering, etc.Rlevse 17:01, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of camps
The stamp itself is from Detmold, overprinted Augsburg, so we know of two more camps. I wonder if there is a definitive list published anywhere. Chris 15:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * See here: Displaced_persons_camp, it's even broken down by country.Rlevse 15:23, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry for being unclear-I meant of camps that were known to have Scouts. Chris 15:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, but that list is a place to start. I know most, if not all, of the Japanese camps in America had Scout units.Rlevse 15:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Japanese American camps
While I agree these were displaced persons, I have a real problem with them being called POWs. POWs, by international definition, are people captured in armed combat who followed the rules of war. The Japanese Americans do not fall in this category. We need to find another way to structure this section.Rlevse 16:12, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Changed to: Scouting in Prisoner of war Camps and Internment camps-Phips 16:23, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Some refs: --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Norman Mineta
 * http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/9911/d-wwas.html
 * http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/0201/d-wwas.html (I already used this as a ref Rlevse 18:34, 28 September 2007 (UTC))
 * http://www.scouting.org/media/inthenews/030102.html

List of Japanese internment camps

 * Gila River War Relocation Center, Arizona
 * Granada War Relocation Center, Colorado
 * Heart Mountain War Relocation Center, Wyoming
 * Jerome War Relocation Center, Arkansas
 * Manzanar War Relocation Center, California
 * Minidoka War Relocation Center, Idaho
 * Poston War Relocation Center, Arizona
 * Rohwer War Relocation Center, Arkansas
 * Topaz War Relocation Center, Utah
 * Tule Lake War Relocation Center California
 * These are the War Relocation Centers, but there were more camps that were run by the Dept of Justice. There is a full listing here: full listing. I'll be updating the wiki article on this soon as the article only has a partial list, though it does have the 10 WRC camps. I spent 3 hours last night on photos and found several and proved it just wasn' the WRCs that had Scouts. I found several boy scout photos and two girl scout photos. I'll be uploading them soon. Rlevse 09:59, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Name
Is "DP-Scouts" what people call it or was it a formal organization? I think you're not supposed to have abbreviations in the title. May need to change it to Displaced Person-Scouts. Rlevse 11:40, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * suggestion-once we move it into Wikispace, it should first briefly go to DP-Scouts, and then immediately moved to Displaced Person-Scouts, to pick up the links from the abbreviated version and link all the articles it should. Chris 21:23, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I recommend Scouting in displaced persons camps. There is also an article on displaced persons camp.  --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:58, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I like it, though through the last 50 years they have been usually referred to simply as DP-Scouts. We should link from all. Chris 18:13, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I like Gadget's name bette as most people won't know what DP means. We can solve this with redirects and a quick explanation in the lead.Rlevse 18:15, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I have redirected both earlier names here in preparation for the move into Wikispace. Chris 18:16, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * question regarding Scouting as adjective-would "Scouting in displaced persons camps" mean Scouting as the momement, not just the boy section, or should it instead be Scouting and Guiding in displaced persons camps? What does the MoS read on this? Chris 22:15, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This brings up the debate if they are two separate movements. They are both parts of one larger movement. This is why it is the Scouting project, not the Scouting and Guiding project. I feel using both in the name is exacerbating as it appears to emphasize that the parts are separate, they are not, they are parts of a whole, like a left arm and right arm. Rlevse 22:19, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That answers my question, thanks boss! :) Chris 22:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

photos
The people of that era were prolific photo-takers. If possible, we should include photos as this will help illustrate the story. I found one at http://gallery.unl.edu/picinfo/17820.html. Chris 17:39, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I just put on wikicommons, it's PD and in the national archives. Rlevse 23:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * another http://content.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft9q2nb57k/%3bjsessionid=gGQPwYJ-vp_vYMws?query=&brand=calisphere
 * http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/printthread.php/Cat/0/Board/globalvillage/main/7169/type/thread halfway down the page
 * http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/japan/granada.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kintetsubuffalo (talk • contribs) 17:43, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Cool. Could you see if we can get them GFDL, CC, or PD?Rlevse 17:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * How do I go about that? Chris 22:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Using all sources-;) I asked B about it too. Rlevse 22:21, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I went to the web sites and contacted them all by email. We'll see what happens.Rlevse 02:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, that's what you meant when I asked how I go about it. I get it now. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. If we do get the license, please let me know, I have converted all to jpg and trimmed them and Wikisized them, so if we get permission, they're ready to upload.


 * So, let me ask, those are the ones I found with google search Amache+Scout+photo. Provided those pan out, do we want more than one illustration, maybe from another camp or theater, or will one and the DP stamp suffice? Chris 02:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The more variety the better. The ones I emailed about are the links shown above.Rlevse 02:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

THESE are all now loaded in commons or not really needed for this article. Rlevse 23:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

framework/structure
God this is the most fun I have had on an article since my first few weeks here two years ago. I love seeing this come together, thanks all!

That being said, it's still largely a collection of random things each of us find elsewhere. There does not seem to be a definitive work on the subject, so we may be breaking new ground.

This needs a proper A-to-B-to-C direction. One could be chronological, i.e. 1939, 1940, 1941 and so on, another could be geographical, thus far, Scouts could possibly be found at camps in (in no particular order)
 * American sector camps Germany
 * American sector camps Austria
 * British sector camps Germany
 * British sector camps Austria
 * Italy
 * United States POW camps
 * List of POW camps in the United States
 * United States internment camps (difference being civilian populace)
 * Gila River War Relocation Center, Arizona
 * Granada War Relocation Center, Colorado
 * Heart Mountain War Relocation Center, Wyoming
 * Jerome War Relocation Center, Arkansas
 * Manzanar War Relocation Center, California
 * Minidoka War Relocation Center, Idaho
 * Poston War Relocation Center, Arizona
 * Rohwer War Relocation Center, Arkansas
 * Topaz War Relocation Center, Utah
 * Tule Lake War Relocation Center California
 * United Kingdom
 * France
 * Germany
 * Japan
 * List of Japanese POW camps during World War II

Is anyone else seeing a different way of tying the article together? Chris 23:06, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree we need to work on sectioning, layout, etc. I have to mull it over some more. Gadget850 is good at this stuff too.Rlevse 23:18, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The simplest and least controversial way would be to lay it out by country, like we finally did in List of Scouts. Make two sub-sections under the US— one for the Japaneses internment camps and one for the POW camps.  By country, I mean the country where such Scouting existed, not the country of origin of the Scouts.  --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:55, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Now that we're getting so much information outside of the World War II era, I propose larger groupings for categorization:
 * ==Armenian Genocide==
 * ==World War II and aftermath==
 * ===Europe===
 * ===North America===
 * ===Asia===
 * ===Elsewhere===
 * ==Palestine==
 * ==Today==

Thoughts? Chris 21:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that would be a good framework. Chris thanks for your fine ideas and for your contributions.-Phips 22:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

References:
I'm just going to park refs here as I find them. Strike them out as they are used. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:36, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

* * *] * *http://www.dpcamps.org/dpcampsGermanyM.html **Meinleus (U.S. zone) Russian Boy Scout troops in camp. **Memmingen airport (U.S. zone), UNRRA Team 155, Lithuanians published a daily news called the 'Mintis', Russian Boy Scout troops in camp. **Mittenwald Plast Ukrainian Scouting activity in Mittenwald: http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1999/309923.shtml (dead link?) **Monchehof (U.S. zone), near Kassel; Russian Boy Scout troops in camp. {{cquote|Dear Olga,
 * (dead link)

My father, Rostislav Polchaninoff, (another bio I need to write, known to me in research for 18 years) has been in contact with you regarding Russian DP Camps.

This is a photograph of a January, 1948, Christmas Pageant "Snow White" in the Russian DP camp in Moenchehof near Kassel, Germany.

Thank you,

Ludmila Polchaninoff-Selinsky

*http://www.dpcamps.org/dpcampsGermanySp-Sz.html
 * Stuttgart has its own page. (U.S. zone) Ukrainians, Russians, Jews, Poles, Czech, Russian Boy Scout troops

Chris 03:01, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * http://www.scout-online.net/ modern Trofaiach Scouts, site is in German, but it's a start
 * http://cgi.ebay.com/Mittenwald-BDP-Boy-Scouts-Pathfinders-Medal-Plaque_W0QQitemZ270154973858QQihZ017QQcategoryZ404QQcmdZViewItem





 -Phips 19:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

30 Old Scout photos
I’ve found 30 old photos of Boy and Girls Scouts. All but 2 are public domain (PD) too! The 28 PD photos are on the National Archives site, which has several hundreds of photos from the Japanese American internment camps from WWII. All 10 of the Dept of Interior War Relocation Authority camps had Scouts and most, possibly all, of the Dept of Justice Detention Centers did too.

Three of them are of Girl Scouts, the rest Boy Scouts. One of them is of Bess Truman with Girl Scouts. The rest are of interred Japanese American Boy and Girl Scouts during WWII.

A full listing is on my wiki image listing page at: User:Rlevse/images The 28 that are public domain are hence on wikicommons. These are the Bess Truman one plus 27 of interred Japanese American Boy and Girl Scouts in a category I made on wikicommons called: (they are in other categories too). The Bess Truman is on commons at:

The two that I could not prove are free/public domain are on wikipedia at: Image:CrystalCityGirlScoutsDrama.gif Image:GranadaBoyScoutBand.jpg

Also note that I found some of the ones that are on the archives site and clearly PD are also on other sites claiming they owned them, but they don’t own them as they are federal photos.

I encourage all to look at these and use for articles and education as they are quite interesting. Rlevse 01:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

DPs and Scouting/Guiding today

 * Scouting and DPs in the Great Lakes Region of Africa


 * "The Uganda Scouts will be running a project to train 40 Peer Educators inAbstinence and Being faithful among the Youth (ABY) in HIV prevention. This will run in 5 Internally Displaced Persons (IDP) camps in GuluDistrict. They will also conduct a refresher workshop for 30 Scouttrainers in Gulu with emphasis on Scout leaders in the IDP camps."


 * "Africa: Using the Girl Guide method to teach adolescent refugees about health issues and to train them as peer educators."


 * "Sudan - Since the Darfur Crisis began in July 2003, Scouts in Sudan have been managing camps for Internally Displaced Persons, distributing food and relief and raising awareness of health issues."


 * Saharan Scouts are also purported to exist in the refugee camps of Tindouf, Algeria.(see Scouting in Western Sahara)


 * Refugees and Internally Displaced People on Scoutpax

-Phips 20:00, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Seriously! You're totally right, and I had neglected to remember that the whole time we were fighting to save Scouting in Western Sahara. I am rewriting the intro accordingly. Chris 21:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Well done, thanks.-Phips 21:17, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

earlier example?
Have there been DP Scouts since the beginning? Check out Hayastani Azgayin Scautakan Sharjum Kazmakerputiun, which I again had written but had not considered until now: Scouting in Armenia was founded in 1912, then later developed abroad among the refugees who had survived the genocide of 1915-1916 and among those that had fled the new communist occupation of their lands, at which point Scouting ceased to exist in Armenia. Chris 21:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

That is interesting. Thanks for the information.-Phips 22:07, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Palestinian Scout Association
I have expand tagged this article. Surely for the bulk of the Palestinian Scout Association's history there must be Scouting for displaced persons camps. Chris 21:42, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Long quotes
The sections with long quotes need shortened and summarized. Article coming along nicely.Rlevse 11:42, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Along with that, may I suggest the use of flag icons instead of the repeated sentence "X, a camp for Y DPs, had Y Scouts"? Chris 05:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Tabling instead

 * ==DP Scouts by location==


 * note-I have tried to use simpler, less specific Scouting icons than we use at the Project

Please feel free to modify. Chris 18:45, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks great.-Phips 19:01, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Polish Scouting
The section Polish Scouting in the United Kingdom appears to really cover Scouts-in-Exile, not DP Scouts. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

No, see

"Origin of term The term was first widely used during World War II and the resulting refugee outflows from Eastern Europe, when it was used to specifically refer to one removed from his or her native country as a refugee, prisoner or a slave laborer. The meaning has significantly broadened in the past half-century. A displaced person may also be referred to as a forced migrant. The term "refugee" is also commonly used as a synonym for displaced person, causing confusion between the general descriptive class of anyone who has left their home and the subgroup of legally defined refugees who enjoy specified international legal protection." from: Displaced person

They were refugees, they had to leave their country because of the Invasion of the Germans and Soviets. This is included in the definition of DP. "A DP is a person who has been forced to leave his or her native place, a phenomenon known as forced migration". This definition is taken from: Displaced person

"Forced migration has accompanied religious and political persecution, as well as war,..." /Taken from: Forced migration In Poland was religious and political persecution after 1939, so it was forced migration.

"After the Invasion of Poland of 1939 the ZHP were branded criminals by The Nazi Party of Germany (who had gone so far as executing many Scouts and Guides, along with other possible resistance leaders), but they carried on as a clandestine organization." (Taken from Polish Scouting Association)

This is persecution.

So they are DPs because the are included in the definitions of DPs and Forced migration.

The Polish refugees are also included in Hilary St George Saunders, The Left Handshake, 1948, Chapter VII: Scouting in Refugee and Displaced Persons' Camps

-Phips 18:02, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Make it an article
I think this is ready to be made an article and nominated for DYK. Phips, if you'd like to do that, go ahead. I think the title should be Scouting in displaced persons camps. You can nominate for DYK User:Rlevse/Tools. It's in way better shape than most new articles and we can keep working on it in its new home. Great job to all who helped! — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 16:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

The article is moved, Chris can you do the DYK thing, thanks you all for your contributions.-Phips 19:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * you put a period at the end of it, I'll fix it. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 20:26, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Put at Candidate entries entries.-Phips 20:46, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Displaced Persons Division of the Boy Scouts International Bureau
From the Plast article, "Ukrainian Scouting became a member of the Displaced Persons Division of the Boy Scouts International Bureau." We need to discover and develop this. Chris 03:47, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

founded 1947 by WOSM, for DP-Scouts in Austria and Germany, in other countries the DP Scouts had to join the NSOs, Traveling Commissioner for D.P. Scouts in Germany and Austria J. Monnet (his postadress was a US-Army base in Bavaria),the DP-Scouts were members of WOSM, but they were not allowed to vote/elect in the World Scout Conference. There is one file in our archives, but there are a lot of files missing on this topic(where are this files?).-Phips 15:04, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Added.-Phips (talk) 12:01, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation of Ukrainian
I'm trying to remove wikilinks to Ukrainian, which is a disambiguation page rather than an article. Every reference to Plast here includes the word Ukrainian and is linked to it. I assume this is for purposes of clarification for those who aren't familiar with Plast. So I created a redirect to Plast at Plast Ukrainian Scouting and linked to it in this article. I thought it was a good idea, but User:Kintetsubuffalo reverted my edit. So, what do editors of this article propose to do in order to eliminate the wikilinks to Ukrainian? Its obvious to me that the main disambiguation possibilities (Ukraine, Ukrainians, Ukrainian language) aren't appropriate. Shall we just leave Ukrainian bare and unlinked? I could go for that. Ntsimp (talk) 16:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

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to be added in
Wilson
 * Another problem was the existence of emigré Scouts in countries other than their motherland. The National Association of Russian Scouts was represented at the Olympia Jamboree and became a founder member of the World Organization of the Scout Movement. Before the Revolution there was a fairly strong Russian Boy Scout Association, with the tsar as patron. Many of the Scouters, if few of the Scouts, escaped from the country and were centered mostly in Paris. In 1929 the Association of Armenian Scouts, also centered in Paris, was given recognition as a member of the International Conference. After World War II this problem of emigré Scouts became very acute. Wilson p. 62
 * The Committee's proposals were accepted without discussion. An appeal against this policy was made st the World Scout Conference in Norway by the London headquarters of the Polish Scouts in Exile. After a very full discussion, the appeal was rejected. The position of the Association of Armenian Scouts, registered and recognized in 1929, was used as an argument in favor of the appeal. At its meeting in 1945, the International Committee considered the standing of the two non-territorial NSOs, the Association des Scouts Armeniens and the Association Nationale des Scouts Russes. It was proved that the Armenian organization was very much alive, and that it had members in various countries, some of whom could not be recognized as Scouts without the existence of the Armenian organization. The same did not appear to be the case with the Russian Scouts, whose membership had dwindled and seemed to be confined to DP camps. The Committee felt that the continued registration of the Association Nationale des Scouts Russes was not justified. The policy adopted in 1947 and reaffirmed in 1949 remained as it was until 1957, when the Committee decided to reconsider the whole question of policy in view of changed conditions. Members of the Council of Scout Associations in Exile based in the United States were present at the Jubilee Jamboree and International Conference in 1957 as guests. Wilson p. 154

The International Committee was of the opinion that while DP Scouts should continue to be recognized as members of world Scouting, it would not be fitting to recognize a number of separate national DP Scout associations. The position was further complicated in early 1947 by the standing down of United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration and the delay in deciding on the principles, methods and financing of the International Refugee Organization. 146

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"Rothenburg displaced persons camp" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Rothenburg displaced persons camp and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 May 15 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 14:27, 15 May 2022 (UTC)