Talk:Sde Eliyahu

Note
This article is mostly a rough translation of the Hebrew article (see interwiki link. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 19:14, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

History
In History after the first paragraph, please add: "The Kibbutz uses lands that belonged to the depopulated Palestinian village of Arab al-'Arida".

Source: All that remains : the Palestinian villages occupied and depopulated by Israel in 1948. Khalidi, Walid. Washington, D.C.: Institute for Palestine Studies. 1992. p. 41. ISBN 0-88728-224-5. OCLC 25632612.

I can't edit by myself due to WP:ARBPIA4 edit restrictions.

Thanks! User:Huldra Bustan1498 (talk) 09:38, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * , please use the template I used above instead of help me. Next time you use help me, I leave behind a warning that it's inappropriate. I dream of horses (talk page) (Contribs) Remember to notify me after replying off my talk page. 10:59, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, I'm sorry. From now on I'll use the edit extended-protected template. I also kindly ask you to add it to the discussion in my talk page, since I was asked there to use the previous template. Bustan1498 (talk) 11:20, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Extended-protection-unlocked.svg Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Interstellarity (talk) 12:31, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * This is not good advice. The depopulation of Palestinian villages is a subject that comes under WP:ARBPIA so editing is only open to 500/30 editors. Currently the rule can't be enforced by sanctions because the necessary notices have not been added, but that's a temporary situation that I'll remedy tomorrow. Zerotalk 13:34, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware of that arbitration case. I apologize for giving that advice. Interstellarity (talk) 13:44, 18 May 2020 (UTC)


 * User:Bustan1498: ✅, Huldra (talk) 22:17, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Earliest history
Perhaps you can help trace some early missing history. In a 1942 map, "Qevutsat Arye" is shown about 500m north of the current Sde Eliyahu location, but "Sde Eliyahu" is not shown. (Official maps often show the situation a few years before they are published due to the time it requires to prepare them.) A May 1943 update still shows "Qevutsat Arye" in that place but now "Sde Eliyahu" has appeared in its current location. The 1948 Palestine Index Gazetteer published by the government lists "Sede Eliyahu (Qevutsat Arye)" as if they are the same place. By 1954, Qevutsat Arye has disappeared from the map. So what was Qevutsat Arye and how was it related to the founding of Sde Eliyahu? I see a possible mention of "Kvutzat Aryeh" in this 1938 article that calls it a "Palestine colony of refugee children assisted by the Eddie Cantor Fund and named after his Hebrew first name". Note that that article is dated to before the 1939 founding of Sde Eliyahu. Zerotalk 11:57, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

I found something. In the Palestine Gazette No. 1121 of 7th August 1941, is this:
 * Notice is hereby given that with the approval of the Registrar of Cooperative Societies dated 25th July, 1941, the name of the undermen­tioned society has been changed as follows:— Previous name: KVUZAT ARYE KVUZAT HAPOEL HAMIZRAHI LEHITYASHVUT SHETUFIT LIMITED. New name: SDE ELIYAHU KVUZAT ARYE KVUZAT HAPOEL HAMIZRAHI LEHITYASHVUT SHETUFIT LIMITED.

Zerotalk 13:39, 18 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi User:Zero0000 for sure, I would love to help.
 * I share with you this post I found in Facebook, from the page of a bio tours company from Sde Eliyahu (I roughly translate from Hebrew):
 * "So... for the 80 anniversary of Sde Eliyahu!
 * Did you know that the first Kibubtz members wanted to call it "Qevutsat Arye" (my addition: which translates into "Arye's Group") after their guide? But the settling institutions didn't think it was a "strong" enough name, and asked them to find an alternative name. Finally, it was decided to call the Kibbutz after Rabbi Eliyahu Guttmacher, one of the precursors of religious Zionism.
 * Generally, the Zionist institutes didn't think that the guys would last long in the middle of nowhere but see, already 80 years the Kibbutz members develop agriculture and biological solutions for farmers around the world."
 * The company tagged the Kibbutz official page, and people commented below about people in the pictures they identify. Link of the original post: https://www.facebook.com/biotour.sdeeliyahu/photos/%D7%90%D7%96-%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%91%D7%95%D7%93-%D7%9B%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%A1%D7%AA%D7%95-%D7%A9%D7%9C-%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%91%D7%95%D7%A5-%D7%A9%D7%93%D7%94-%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%94%D7%95-%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%92%D7%99%D7%92%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%9480%D7%94%D7%99%D7%93%D7%A2%D7%AA%D7%9D-%D7%A9%D7%97%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%99-%D7%94%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%91%D7%95%D7%A5-%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%91%D7%9B%D7%9C%D7%9C-/1672760606155429/
 * I hope that helps. Bustan1498 (talk) 14:06, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * You can find more information (in Hebrew, I can help you translate if you want) here: http://www.kdati.org.il/cgi-webaxy/sal/sal.pl?lang=he&ID=812319_kdati&act=show&dbid=pages&dataid=pages_891040_kdati_info_amudim_5769_735_07.htm It's from the site of the religious Kibbutz movement. Bustan1498 (talk) 14:10, 18 May 2020 (UTC)


 * That's great, especially the last source which explains it nicely. I can't read it very confidently; would you mind writing a few sentences that summarise the history from 1934? I can then add it to the article. Incidentally an announcement that the Place Names Committee of the JNF had selected "Sde Eliyahu" as the name of this place is in the Palestine Post of July 16, 1940, page 2. Zerotalk 02:45, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Zero0000 I think that the two first paragraphs are of most relevance, and thus I translate them here.

The Beginning: Everything started in the summer of 1934, when a group of 56 children from Germany was absorbed in Rodges (my addition: religious Zionist group founded in Germany, in 1928). After two years, a collective circle in it called itself "Qevutsat Arye" after its admired guide Arye Fleichenfeld. They group consisted of 37 members organized in Hadera, where they found some job as day laborers in the orchards, and there other young people from Germany joined them. Within the growth of the group, vibrant culture was developted, which put strong emphasis on Judaism studies and based the ideology of "Torah ve Avoda" (Torah and Work) inspired by the member and Rabbi, Dr. Gdalyahu Una, who shaped the ideological line of the religious Kibbutz, and accompanied them in the first month of their independence. Two years after the foundation of the settelment of Tirat Zvi in the southren Beit She'an valley, Qevutsat Arye took the mission to form a new settelment. For this cause, it gathered all its members, which were scattered in distant work places, to the camp in Hadera, and started discussions marathon, in order to determine the group's frame and define their institutions and their goals, to clarify who is considered as a member and what is required of him, what will be the status of the family and what will be the education if its children. At that time the group consisted of 70 members.

Tirat Zvi branch: The big day of Qevutsat Arye in spring 1939 did not take place with the agreement of all. For political reasons, it was impossible to establish a new settelment, and the solution was that the members of Tirat Zvi went to cultivate the new plots. Next the the 'red house' abandoned by the German templers, a new camp has been set up and the members of the new settling point moved there gradually, while learning how to deal with the difficulties of life in Beit She'an valley. Then, the group got its final name, after Rabbi Eliyahu Guttmacher. In the first years the members were devoted to the mission of the esablishment of different sections of farm life: training of the fruit plantations planted by the Germans which have been found unsuitable for soil and climate, and also forming a cowshed, a pen, a vegetables garden and agriculture. In this years Sde Eliyahu absorbed new members, educated youth groups and trained settling kernels (see Gar'in).

I hope my (rough) translation helps. Feel free to ask for further help. Bustan1498 (talk) 06:48, 19 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks! It answered another problem I had. Some 1938 mentions of Qevutsat Arye say "near Hadera" but of course that is nowhere near Sde Eliyahu. From your translation it seems they were indeed near Hadera before moving to the other location. I'll probably have more questions later ;). Zerotalk 06:55, 19 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm glad it helped! :) See also this time line, it has some intersting photos (like photos some members taken in their ship on their way from Europe to Palestine, of Arye Fleichenfield, of the group in Hadera and then in Sde Eliyahu, and some more):

https://sde.localtimeline.com/index.php?lang=he# Bustan1498 (talk) 07:23, 19 May 2020 (UTC)