Talk:Sean B. Carroll

Expand/Clean up/rewrite
Just letting anyone following this article know that I'm about to work a bit on the page. I'll expand it some and do a full rewrite of it on my sandbox. I will take my time on this. If anyone has any sources or suggestions, please let me know. VdSV9• ♫ 19:34, 4 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I've just done a major update on the page, added a bunch of sources, rewrote major parts, removed some dead links and the such. I noticed someone recently added info about Carroll graduating "phi beta kappa", I didn't use this because (a) I don't think it should be here, and (b) the reference was a Tumblr page. I mean, Tumblr, rlly? Any fixes or suggestions are welcome. VdSV9• ♫ 18:53, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

What is his full name? What does B. correspond to?
His name is Sean B. Carroll but what name is B is is not given. It would be better if someone improve it. --81.213.215.83 (talk) 04:06, 7 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your interest. We're certainly not required to know that sort of thing if people haven't chosen to make it readily available. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:14, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Request Edit September 2023
I work as a paid consultant for WhiteHatWIki, which was hired by Howard Hughes Medical Institute, where the subject of this article works. This article is a well done GA, but it’s missing important content. For the past several years, Sean Carroll’s been more active in his role as the head of a major TV and film studio than any other aspect of his career. I’ve suggested additions below to document his film and TV work. Thank you.

1.  In the Infobox, please update the photo:


 * image            = Sean B Carroll.jpg
 * alt              = Professor Sean B Carroll sitting at his desk, holding a book, with lots of post-it notes glued everywhere.
 * caption          = Carroll in 2008

To:


 * image            = Dr. Sean B. Carroll 2022.jpg
 * alt              =
 * caption          = Carroll in 2008

Reason: The current photo is from 2008. The new photo is from December, 2022

2. In Career, please add this right after the second sentence of the second paragraph

In 2012, Carroll founded HHMI Tangled Bank Studios to develop science documentaries with an emphasis on narrative storytelling.

Reason: Establishing the studio is a significant milestone in Carroll’s later career and most of his work over the past decade is related to science documentary filmmaking.

3. In Career, please add a new sentence after the second paragraph, to begin a new third paragraph:

Carroll was an executive producer of The Farthest, a film about the Voyager program, which won the Emmy in 2018 for outstanding science and technology documentary.

Reason: Carroll’s role in the production of award-winning films is a noteworthy aspect of his career that has received significant high-quality press coverage. As written, the Career section offers comprehensive detail of Carroll’s career as a scientist but does not include any information about his involvement in executive producing award-winning documentaries in his role as the head of Tangled Bank Studios.

4. In Career, please add this as the second sentence of the newly-created third paragraph described above:

He served as the narrator and executive producer of the Emmy award-winning 2018 documentary The Serengeti Rules; a film based on Carroll’s book of the same name.

Reason: Another well-documented example of his role as an executive producer of a major film project, especially important here as this is based on Carroll’s own book.

5. In Career, please add a new paragraph after Request #4 that reads:

As the head of studio, Carroll led 2020 production of Race for the Vaccine; a film about the COVID-19 vaccine commissioned by CNN and the BBC

Reason: Another well-documented example of his role as an executive producer of major film projects.

6. In Career, please create a new paragraph after the new paragraph in Request #5:

Carroll was an executive producer of the 2022 Oscar-nominated documentary All That Breathes; which won the best documentary award at the Cannes Film Festival and  the Sundance Film Festival.

Reason: Another well-documented example of his role as an executive producer of major film projects.

7. In the lead please update the first sentence from:

Sean B. Carroll (born September 17, 1960) is an American evolutionary developmental biologist, author, educator and executive producer.

to:

Sean B. Carroll (born September 17, 1960) is an American evolutionary developmental biologist, author, educator and the head of HHMI Tangled Bank Studios.

Reason: Carroll’s career for the past several years has been dominated by his running HHMI Tangled Bank studios. His title is “head” of the studio. While “executive producer” describes one aspect of his filmmaking career, including his specific current job seems warranted given how prominent the studio has become. Citations added in requests above.

8. In the lead', please add this as the new second sentence: He was the executive producer of the Academy Award-nominated science documentary All That Breathes.

Reason: Executive producing an Oscar-nominated film is perhaps the most significant honor as a producer.

9. In Selected Works, please update the following section:

Film & TV credits
 * All That Breathes (2022) - executive producer

to:

Filmography

Executive producer

Reason: Carroll’s extensive work as an executive producer, including many receiving major honors, has received significant coverage in multiple high quality sources. I’ve structured the credits in a table, following the example of GAs about filmmakers such as Roberto Orci and Dan Gilroy. W12SW77 (talk) 21:00, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Reply 13-SEP-2023
Below you will see where proposals from your request have been quoted with reviewer decisions and feedback inserted underneath, either accepting, declining or otherwise commenting upon your proposal(s). Please read the enclosed notes within the proposal review section below for information on each request.

Furthermore, the table that is proposed to be placed needs to have the approporaite Wikilinks added. Each film which is listed needs to be independently notable, and each award whcih is listed under the Note column needs to have the exact award wikilinked. Regards, Spintendo  22:13, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Clarifications 6-OCT-2023
Thanks very much for your review. I’ve provided clarification and addressed the issues you raised.


 * 1. The full Wikilink of the photo has not been provided.


 * The full Wikilink of the photo is provided here:


 * Dr. Sean B. Carroll 2022.jpg


 * This would be added to the infobox as follows:


 * image = Dr. Sean B. Carroll 2022.jpg


 * 2. The provided references were not accessible:


 * I see the |Realscreen article may ask for an email to access the content if you’ve accessed the site (at no charge) more than their monthly limit on free articles. I’ve included the relevant text for reference below. (The Nautilus |article link works and has no paywall, but I’ve added an excerpt before anyway.)


 * Realscreen

Carroll does not come at science documentary strictly as a producer (...) But since establishing Tangled Bank Studios in 2012, and executive producing such acclaimed films as the Emmy winning The Serengeti Rules and Oliver Sacks: His Own Life (...)


 * Nautilus

All That Breathes, produced by HHMI Tangled Bank Studios, a nonprofit arm of the science philanthropy Howard Hughes Medical Institute, represents an evolution in science documentary filmmaking. To attract bigger, younger, and more diverse audiences, producers and directors have moved from science explainers, once the bane of high school science classes, to narrative features filled with human drama. That evolution mirrors Tangled Bank’s own.

“I’ve really learned how important it is to go for the emotional heart of a story,” says Tangled Bank executive producer Sean B. Carroll, an American evolutionary developmental biologist, author, and the head of HHMI Tangled Bank Studios. “When we find that, we’ve got a qualitatively different film. Great storytellers can elevate a story to something that is both art and science.”


 * 3. The Wikilink provided for the Emmy awards is the link to the overall awards themselves. Please provide the Wikilink for the Emmy award specified in the proposed text.


 * I have revised the sentence to include the Wikilink for the category of Emmy won by the film. Please note that editors have not added a table for winners of the award to the Wikipedia page, though anyone could easily do so. There’s an entire page dedicated to the News and Documentary Emmy awards for the following year. Here it is:


 * Carroll was an executive producer of The Farthest, a film about the Voyager program, which won the Emmy in 2018 for outstanding science and technology documentary.


 * 4. Please provide the Wikilink for the film Race for the Vaccine.


 * The film Race for the Vaccine doesn't yet have a Wikipedia page, but it's a noteworthy film in his career that was commissioned by the BBC and CNN, and aired on both networks. As you know, not every fact on a Wikipedia page must itself be notable. WP:NOTEWORTHY Here, there is reliable source, and, using GAs from other executive producers as an example, I see that some reliably sourced films without Wikipedia pages are included on the pages as statements and in the filmography tables. Please see: Stephen Hillenburg, Dan Gilroy, and  Roberto Orci. This page about Sean Carroll is also a Good Article, so should lean toward being especially thorough. Here is the proposed text again:


 * As the head of studio, Carroll led 2020 production of Race for the Vaccine; a film about the COVID-19 vaccine commissioned by CNN and the BBC


 * 5. The proposed text states "won the best documentary award at Cannes". Please provide the Wikilink for this award.


 * Here is the revised sentence with the requested Wikilink to best documentary award which names the film:


 * Carroll was an executive producer of the 2022 Oscar-nominated documentary All That Breathes; which won the best documentary award at the Cannes Film Festival and  the Sundance Film Festival.


 * 6. It's not clear what is meant by "head of".


 * Carroll’s official title at HHMI is “Head of Studio” as verified in this |story and

|the studio website I initially didn’t include the full title because the word studio would then be repeated twice, but I see your point and I have re-drafted it as follows:


 * Sean B. Carroll (born September 17, 1960) is an American evolutionary developmental biologist, author, educator and the head of studio at HHMI Tangled Bank Studios.


 * I suggest adding a second source, |ABC7, to the body of the article to further verify his role:


 * As the head of studio at HHMI Tangled Bank Studios, ….


 * 7.The proposed text states "he was the executive producer" when in fact he was one of the executive producers. Text added to the article needs to be as accurate as possible.


 * Good catch. Here is the revised sentence:


 * Carroll was one of the executive producers of the 2022 Oscar-nominated documentary All That Breathes; which won the best documentary award at the Cannes Film Festival and  the Sundance Film Festival.


 * 8. For Request #9, the expanded Filmography table. I’ve revised it below to eliminate a couple of films with only weak or primary sources. I also added a Wikilink to pages where the films are included on lists of award winners.


 * But I do include a couple noteworthy films without Wikilinks because, as noted in my comments above, not every reliably sourced fact on a page needs to be notable. WP:NOTEWORTHY. It is standard practice to include films without Wikipedia pages into GA filmographies like these:  Stephen Hillenburg, Roberto Orci, Dan Gilroy. This article is also a GA and efforts should be made for it to be equally thorough. I know there is a policy that says certain types of list pages may consist only of notable items, but this table is not a list page. Here is the revised table:

Filmography

Executive producer

Many thanks for your time spent on the review. W12SW77 (talk) 19:39, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Reply 8-OCT-2023
Regards, Spintendo  20:31, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) ✅ The photo was updated.
 * 2) ✅ The claim statement "In 2012, Carroll founded HHMI Tangled Bank Studios" was added to the article.
 * 3) ✅ The claim regarding The Farthest was added to the article.
 * 4) ✅ The claim regarding All That Breathes was added to the article; however, the text "and the Sundance Film Festival" was not included because the Wikilink for the Sundance Festival's Best Documentary Award was not included with the request.
 * 5) ✅ The filmography table was added. Films which were not independently notable were not included. Additionally, the "note" information under All That Breathes was not included because not all of the Wikilinks were provided with the information displayed there. The previous edit request review stated that these Wikilinks needed to be included in the table in order for it to be approved and implemented.
 * 6) ❌ The claim regarding Race for the Vaccine was not added because the film is not independently notable.
 * 7) ❌ The claim "head of studio" was not added because while the provided source may have given that label, the suggested prose did not explain for readers of the Wikipedia article what that role's title means. While Wikilinks for other company executive/leader-type titles such as President (corporate title) and Chief executive officer exist in Wikipedia, there is currently no article for "head of studio". The corporate titles bestowed upon individuals in Wikipedia articles need to have Wikilinks in order to contextualize the information for readers.
 * Additional changes made:
 * 1) ❌ Awards listed under the Awards section which were not independently notable were deleted.


 * Thanks very much for your response and for implementing some of the requested edits. I’ve used some clarifications below regarding other requests.


 * 1. “The claim "head of studio" was not added because while the provided source may have given that label, the suggested prose did not explain for readers of the Wikipedia article what that role's title means. While Wikilinks for other company executive/leader-type titles such as President (corporate title) and Chief executive officer exist in Wikipedia, there is currently no article for "head of studio". The corporate titles bestowed upon individuals in Wikipedia articles need to have Wikilinks in order to contextualize the information for readers.”


 * I see your point and as a way forward, I suggest focusing on the substance of his job, as verified by the press, rather than the exact title. Here’s my suggestion for the first two sentences of the lead paragraph:


 * Sean B. Carroll (born September 17, 1960) is an American evolutionary developmental biologist, author, educator and an executive producer who runs HHMI Tangled Bank Studios.


 * Multiple reliable secondary sources support that he runs the studio, like this NBC News story about the Academy Award nomination for “All that Breathes”:


 * |UMD Professor Up for Best Documentary Academy Award

By Aimee Cho “NBC Washington” (2 March 2023)


 * Another story about Carroll and his leadership of HHMI Tangled Bank Studios includes this:


 * |HHMI Tangled Bank Studios’ Sean B. Carroll on prepping “Wild Hope” for APT, PBS

By Barry Walsh “Realscreen” (30 May 2023)


 * Here is another article that makes it clear that he’s running the studio.


 * |HHMI Tangled Bank Studios’ Sean Carroll talks new vaccine doc, taking on denialism

By Barry Walsh “Realscreen” (10 December 2020)


 * And although I do not cite this in the article, this is an excerpt from Carroll’s | bio on HHMI Tangled Bank’s website that makes his role very clear. It serves to reinforce the information from the reliable secondary sources above.


 * 2. Additionally, In my original proposal, I suggested adding a sentence to the lead about Carroll’s work with award-winning documentaries. The proposed sentence wasn’t implemented or addressed in your response. Given his prominence as a producer is now well established in the body of the article, including the table, I think it’s now clearer that highlights of his film work should be included in the lead. I suggest adding a sentence to become the new second sentence of the lead paragraph.


 * Awards-winning films he has produced include Emmy-winning The Farthest and The Serengeti Rules, as well as the Oscar-nominated All That Breathes.


 * Finally, I noticed that you removed some comment that was part of the page when it was granted Good Article status by User:Wretchskull on 6 December 2021 after being nominated by User: Chiswick Chap. Here’s the [dif| https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sean_B._Carroll&oldid=1058999955] for that. I had nothing to do with this nomination and review but I do know that it means there was considerable scrutiny to this content as part of the process.


 * Many thanks for your time spent on the review. W12SW77 (talk) 14:37, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Reply 31-OCT-2023

 * With regards to the issue of and an executive producer who runs HHMI Tangled Bank Studios I'm afraid that this description is not very informative, as I stated earlier, there is no Wikipedia page for the description of someone who "runs a company" (which is not an official description). That is more of a euphemism for other, more established labels like president, CEO, etc.
 * With regards to your lead section proposed additions, they contains citations, which are not usually placed in the lead section. Items placed in the lead section should be found elsewhere in the article with their references. My suggestion for adding this text would be to give a description of where in the article the text and reference(s) exist that would verify the information that you'd like to place into the lead. An example:

Regards, Spintendo  02:38, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The table above shows the text you'd like to add to the lead section placed next to the passage of text in the already-existing article, along with the verifying reference. That way, it's clear that the text added to the lead section without citation tags is already handled elsewhere in the article, and thus, can be easily implemented by myself or another reviewing editor.
 * With regards to the text I supposedly removed, the link you've provided was not instructive. Please use instead, and advise. Thank you!

Reply 1 DEC 2023

 * I appreciate your continued feedback on edits to this page.

1.Here is the table you requested.

2. Here is the diff where you removed content from the article: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sean_B._Carroll&diff=prev&oldid=1179234469

Again, this content was in the article the day it became a Good Article. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Sean_B._Carroll&diff=prev&oldid=1059003925. These are major awards in his field. I would request you add this back into the Awards section as the first three sentences in the Awards section.

Many thanks for your time spent on the review. W12SW77 (talk) 17:33, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Reply 1-DEC-2023

 * 1) ✅ The claim concerning the award winning films was added to the lead section. Thank you for providing that information.
 * 2) ❌ The claim concerning the non-notable awards was not added. By their very nature, awards can be subjective, in that they represent a very specific point of view: that of the individual or organization which determines who wins the award and why. To counter this, a good practice is to limit the listing of awards to only those which are independently notable in Wikipedia. What the reviewer is asking for here is not due to WP:N (which is not a content requirement). The request for notability in this case is to ensure WP:NPOV. The adding of several points of view to an article in the form of listings of awards can skew the article's balance. Thus, this reviewer's own practice is to limit the listing of awards to those which are independently notable in Wikipedia. There is also WP:NOTDIRECTORY, which states the following under No.6:  Where it says "but not limited to", I take this to include the listing of awards as well, even to awards received by an individual in the scope of their work. That section goes on to state what to do when an attempt is made to include that information in the article, and while this particular wording speaks to pricing, I think it applies well to awards:
 * I understand that there are other editors who take a more liberal view on awards being mentioned, but I believe all editors have some breaking point where they may feel reluctant to add additional awards that an individual has received. My breaking point is very conservative. To add this information about the Shaw Scientist award, please provide the Wikilink. You are free to seek additional editors views in order to add the information, and I will accept consensus if this is to add the information. Thank you!

Regards, Spintendo  00:30, 2 December 2023 (UTC)