Talk:Second Battle of Oituz

Creation
The creation of this article was discussed here and here (try here if archived). Certes (talk) 15:08, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Geographic places
I'll list the geographic places mentioned just to make the situation clear (mind, talking about a place in a foreign country which I know very little of is already confusing enough) and make sure everything is coherent (also as valid information to anybody interested in the topic but which probably doesn't go in the article). So far, we have: Cheers RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 17:13, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "Sosmezo" is modern day Poiana Sărată.
 * "D. Lespedii" is not findable via a google search, but taking the geographical description (3 km NW of Sosmezo) this would be at about 46°09'24.7"N 26°25'03.2"E
 * "Klárák" I have no clue about, though ostensibly it would be in the vicinity of Oituz/Ojtoz, to the east. Anybody with access to an old sufficiently detailed Hungarian map is free to suggest what the modern place name in Romania would be.
 * D.(=Dealu) Lespedii is Gyalu Leszpedin, between Vrf. Brezoiului and Vrf. Cernica, it has been the turning point of the Hungarian border then.
 * Klárák you may found in this map indicated by "9.", I doubt you'd find a modern Romanian name for that, if not here, in a different form .(KIENGIR (talk) 04:41, 28 June 2020 (UTC))
 * Well at least the Romanian source appears to have a parallel text in French so that will help! In any case it is a relatively minor location so I think it is probably not worth the trouble. I'll investigate later. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:16, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I will check the Romanian names mentioned. As a general observation, as the battle was fought on the territory of Romania, the original names of the paces used in the text has to be in Romanian, alongside with their translation in German and Hungarian. --Macreanu Iulian (talk) 19:14, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for your clarifications here and elsewhere on the talk page. Regarding place names: I think we should use those as they were at the time - so Hungarian (with modern Romanian in parenthesis) when the locality was not in Romania at the time, and Romanian first when in Romania (though for consistency I would not object to one of those styles being kept consistently throughout - and since I based my text here on the usage of the Austro-Hungarian official history that takes precedence for the time being). This seems to be partly what is done in the Austrio-Hungarian OH, with the caveat that they don't give the other language - just to take the examples above, they consistently use Ojtoz, and Sosmezo is Hungarian and was on the Hungarian side of the border; Dealu Lespedii (Gyalu Leszpedin in Hungarian) is given as "D. Lespedii" in the OH.). They don't give the German either, except for a few places which appear as such on the map, (eg. Kronstadt), but that one doesn't appear in the narrative here, so I don't know if they would give it in German in the text. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:45, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Concur with RandomCanadian, we use consistently the names regarding contemporary status quo and whereabouts, in appropriate context, we cannot represent properly everything projected to modern situations that could be misleading, etc. Usually I am not opposing any other names mentioned, however the German names are less relevant here, which are more likely to used in special Saxon or German related context, or in general regarding Transylvania, but this article is dedicated especially the events between Romania and Hungary. Ojtoz/Oituz may appear both sides, since there is as well a river, village/city and other geographic units may be, due the events encompassing a broader area the river seems the best link. I may help with deciphering names, the case of D. Lespedii was not easy, but I solved, Klárák was even harder, but finally got it, I think in all cases we may find an appropriate solution, practically military record described some consecutive peaks on the Hungarian-Romanian border, and regardless of name etymology or origin, the form is determined on which side it was then.(KIENGIR (talk) 21:45, 3 July 2020 (UTC))
 * I agree with not using German (unless it's a Saxon-populated place), using Hungarian and Romanian for places then in Austria-Hungary and only Romanian for places that were then in Romania. We may need to use Hungarian in some places in Romania for the Csangos (who live precisely in Bacău County), although they were not in the border. And yes, Oituz as a river is the best link, the village was then called Grozești. Super   Ψ   Dro  10:31, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank You for your courtesy, however, the usage of Hungarian names in Csango areas are facultative, but of course won't oppose.(KIENGIR (talk) 21:39, 7 July 2020 (UTC))

Music
In the battle section, there's a sentence which says the Romanians attacked to the sound of the music. Do you know which song it was? It could be Treceți, batalioane române, Carpații, a popular song during WWI in the country. I found a German translation; it would be something like "Überschreitet, rumänische Bataillone, die Karpaten" in German sources. It would be cool to know the song for both the article and the DYK hook. Super  Ψ   Dro  09:14, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sadly the only thing I have is the Austrian-Hungarian official history, which states:


 * I.e. in English


 * I guess that in the heat of battle the exact song would not have been a very important detail for the soldiers. If it was noted down it would be recorded either in the unit war diaries (I know that a lot if not all of the primary material for German units did not survive WW2 so can't expect much from the Bavarians) or in Romanian sources (which I don't have access to and wouldn't understand very well either, although the song seems rather fit for purpose). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:07, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I guess it would make more sense for it to appear in Romanian sources. I tried to find anything and I found some sources saying it was maybe played during the Third Battle of Oituz (not sure though, I didn't have full access to those books), but I found nothing about the second battle. Super   Ψ   Dro  13:53, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Romanian sources mentioned this ”music episode”, too. For sure, the song was not ”Treceți batalioane române Carpații” as the song originated from the period of the WWII (20 years latter). More probably was the ”cântecul regimentului” (”the song of the regiment”), as each regiment from the Romania Armed Forces of the time had a specific and distinct song (a kind of ”hymn”). Unfortunately, most of those regiment songs were lost during the communist era, when most of the traditions of the Royal Romanian Army were ignored or banned. --Macreanu Iulian (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It would not make sense for the song to appear in WW2, Romania already had part of Transylvania and most of the fight was not in the Carpathians, unlike Romania in WW1. But yes, that regiment song seems more likely. Super   Ψ   Dro  10:31, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Re. sources
The edition (1989) must surely be a reprint or something. ro:A_doua_bătălie_de_la_Oituz_(1916) has a full bibliography, but apparently whoever started writing it didn't have time to complete it, though I have left them a little message in case they can help us here. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:21, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Both WorldCat and GBooks suggest the book is by Constantin Olteanu (1928-2018), late Ceaușescu-era Defense Minister, Mayor of Bucharest, and sometime military historian. - Biruitorul Talk 13:53, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This suggests it is indeed by Kiritescu. You must have gotten the wrong book on WorldCat because it appears to be this one... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 15:47, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I was talking about Istoria militară a poporului român, wrongly attributed to Ioanițiu instead of Olteanu, not Istoria războiului pentru întregirea României, rightly attributed to Kirițescu. - Biruitorul Talk 16:26, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Fixed It might very likely be an error on the Romanian page as the author is not listed but simply replaced with "***" (logical interpretation of which would indicate that it should be the same as the last listed author). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:20, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You can find here a very detailed bibliography regarding participation of Romania in WWI. I have all of them, so if you need a specific piece of information, please do not hesitate to contact me. I am quite busy in the real life and not very active now on Wikipedia, but I will try to help you.
 * Regarding the book ”Istoria militară a poporului român, vol. V, Editura Militară, București, 1987” it has no particular author mentioned, but a collective and annonymous name ”Comisia Română de Istorie Militară” (Romanian Commision of Military History). There is no connection with former communist leader Ioan Olteanu, so it has to be cited without an author. --Macreanu Iulian (talk) 19:01, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification about the author. It's possible to cite a collective author (and it is preferable to citing no author) so I will put that instead. Regarding sources, what would be most useful would be something akin to the A-H official history (which gives a relatively well detailed account of events at the division, and even down to regimental/battalion level), but from the Romanian side. I don't know which one of these would best fit into that category, though surely you should be able to tell me if there's one which does.
 * Since I can't seem to get access to the original German version; the volume on the campaign by Falkenhayn (1921, the romanian version given at the romanian page for this article is from 1937) might be an interesting source too if it mentions this battle (though it won't help me with the already Austro-German centric coverage).
 * Nevermind the Falkenhayn, I just got a reply to the request I sent at the appropriate place and this should be made available soon so no assistance required.
 * Alternatively, if what I'm looking for doesn't exist, an alternative could be trying to point me towards primary sources: I don't know if the Romanians kept something like the equivalent of war diaries and if those are available on the internet (compare with the Canadian ones). Those can be also a great help if there's not much mention in secondary sources: I know I previously (long time ago) used part of those to expand an article about a Canadian WWI military unit (I could point at it but that would reveal my IP so I'll just say it's a Canadian military unit...). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:47, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

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 * 1916 - Harti - Batalia de la Oituz.jpg