Talk:Second Italo-Ethiopian War

Italian name for the war in the first sentence
I do not think that it is encyclopedic to have the Italian colloquial name for the war (and not the Ethiopian one) in the lead. However I have been reverted so am starting a discussion here.

The revert edit summary read Other common names of the war used in countries principly involved is a standard practice. That may be the case, but I'm not sure that should guide our practice here, when 1) there already is an alternate name listed (i.e. "Second Italo-Abyssinian War") and 2) we do not give the Ethiopian name.

Including both the Italian and the Ethiopian would be preferable to including only one or the other, but would of course clutter the initial sentence tremendously. As it stands, with the addition of just the Italian name, the sentence is already quite cluttered as it is. And it of course unduly favors one side's historical memory of the other's.

For these reasons I think we should just stick to the two English-language names. Generalrelative (talk) 15:39, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with adding the Ethiopian name. I just don’t know what it is but please add it. -Indy beetle (talk) 15:58, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That would be acceptable to me. Pinging User:Jnyssen who can perhaps inform us (and direct us to a source?) if they have the time and inclination. Generalrelative (talk) 16:07, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I've also posted to WikiProject Ethiopia and WikiProject Africa in hopes that someone can help us out with this. Generalrelative (talk) 16:55, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Looking at the Amharic Wikipedia with the aid of Google Translate seems to indicate that the conflict is referred to as the "Italian Invasion" (ጣልያን ወረራ). Googling this term yields many results, including uses of the term to describe the conflict from the Ethiopian government and the BBC . I'll add that now and will be happy to be corrected if someone more knowledgeable cares to weigh in. Generalrelative (talk) 17:38, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Editing of NPOV text regarding obelisk removal from Aksum
I edited some of the text in this article because it was both inaccurate and deliberately misleading and biased. First of all, the Italian army did not "seize" Aksum, they walked into the city unopposed. The city was completely undefended and the few people living there made no effort whatsoever to opposed the Italian entry in any way. This is not surprising because the city had little or no strategic value and was only of symbolic importance. Secondly, the obelisk in question did not "adorn" the city. It was found completely ruined, broken in three pieces and half buried. It had been abandoned and neglected by the Ethiopians. So, writing that the obelisk "adorned" the city was a deliberate lie designed to create a false impression of the events. Also, the previous text seems to try to create the impression that this was some kind of special obelisk or the only obelisk in the city by using the definite article "THE obelisk which adorned the city", which of course is another lie. In fact, there are many ruined obelisks in Aksum, seven of which are quite large (see https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/aksu_2/hd_aksu_2.htm), and this was just one of them. Also, I should point out that the obelisks of Aksum are not in the city. They are in a sepulchral field outside of the city.
 * You make a number of claims here for which you haven't provided sources. Maybe you're right, but you will need to WP:PROVEIT in order to institute lasting changes to the text –– other than changing the definite to the indefinite article when we refer to the obelisk which was taken.
 * You also make an allegation of bad faith when you write writing that the obelisk "adorned" the city was a deliberate lie designed to create a false impression of the events. You may be unaware, but this is a violation of a behavioral guideline (WP:AGF). Please remember to assume good faith in your future work here. Generalrelative (talk) 21:24, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I linked the relevant web pages or wiki pages that provide evidence for my points. I will enumerate these:
 * The obelisk did not "adorn" the city. (see the linked Wikipedia article on the Obelisk of Aksum). As this Wiki article clearly states, the obelisk was broken in three pieces and half buried.
 * The obelisk is not "THE" obelisk, it is one of many. The evidence for this was provided in my talk section where I clearly linked an extensive article on the monuments of Aksum. This article clearly states that there are many monuments including 7 major ones of which 2 are still standing. I notice that when you reverted my edits you changed "the obelisk" to "an obelisk" thereby tacitly recognizing the correctness of that aspect of my edit.
 * The obelisk is not located in the city (stated in the talk article). The evidence for this is in the linked web article which describes the location of the monuments as being in a sepulchral field outside of the city.
 * Please undo your reversion. I clearly evidenced my statements with links as outlined explicitly in the 3 bullet points above and furthermore the original statement in the Wiki page as written was false by its own evidence. In other words, the original page text linked the Wiki page on the obelisk which clearly stated it was in a ruined condition. So, the writer of the original text falsely characterized the obelisk as "adorning" the city, when his own link described it as being ruined. Furthermore, as my linked article describes, the obelisk in question was not even in the city, so it did not "adorn" it. So, by reverting my changes you are publishing demonstrably false statements in this article.


 * Also, I would point out that this whole article is loaded with non-NPOV adjectives and subjective characterizations all in favor of Aethiopia and tending to diminish or reflect poorly on the Italians. For example, the author repeatedly refers to the Italian forces as belonging to the "Fascist regime", not as the "forces of the Kingdom of Italy" as the Italians would have described themselves. The use of the word "regime" to describe a foreign state implies that the government is illegitimate and is generally a term used only by the enemies of that goverment. For example, enemies of the State of Israel refer to it not as the State of Israel, but as the "Zionist regime". So, using this term, "the Fascist regime" to describe the state of the Kingdom of Italy is non-NPOV to begin with and the whole article is written in that tone. By reverting edits you are essentially publishing false facts, such as the false fact that the obelisk "adorned" the city and perpetrating the non-NPOV and counter-factual nature of this article. John Chamberlain (talk) 15:55, 31 October 2021 (UTC)


 * 1) Actually the cited source did not say that, which is why I've fixed the text over at Obelisk of Axum. The only source cited there to describe the looting of the obelisk says The 24-metre (79-foot) granite monument was cut into three pieces before being shipped to Italy. No mention is made there of this particular obelisk having already been broken. If you have any other reliable sources that describe it as "broken in three pieces and half buried" please provide them and I will happily consent to changing the wording here and re-adding it to the Obelisk of Axum article. (Note that issues like this are one of the reasons why Wikipedia articles are not considered reliable sources for the purposes of content discussions.)
 * 2) If you re-examine both my comment above and the edit history of the article, you'll see that I agreed to change the definite article "the" to the indefinite article "an" and instituted that change already. So nothing to complain about there.
 * 3) The obelisk in question is called the "Obelisk of Axum", and the article you linked to above does not discuss it specifically. What it does state explicitly is that the field containing most of Axum's obelisks is on Aksum’s northern edge. Should that be interpreted as a definitive statement that the field is outside the city? It's unclear to me that that was the authors' intended meaning or what a reasonable uninvolved reader would take away. Even if it was technically located outside the official limits of the city, I see no reason why "adorned the city" would be inherently inaccurate, since this obelisk is clearly associated with the city. There may certainly be a more encyclopedically toned way to say this, but I don't accept your premise that the wording violates WP:NPOV. I will be happy to have a good faith discussion about WP:TONE, btw, but in order to engage with me you'll have to display a collaborative attitude.
 * 4) "Fascist regime" is both accurate and WP:DUE. Wikipedia is not in the business of flattering national pretensions, nor of favoring the way Italians would have described themselves over the way others described them. If this is the way the historical sources describe it –– that is, using terms like "Fascist regime" and "Italy" interchangeably when referring to this period, as this article does –– then we do too. On this last point, I will note that the word "regime" occurs four times in the entire article, whereas "Italy" appears many, many times. If anything the word "regime" may be underrepresented. Generalrelative (talk) 17:11, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

CID = Committee of Imperial Defence?
What does this mean: "He was told that the plane was to be used to bomb the Italian oil storage tanks at Massawa, and when the CID enquired about the alien (ex-German) pilot practices in it Shute got the impression that the Foreign Office did not object." Who's the CID? Suddenly appeared in this article. Is it the Committee for Imperial Defence? Then it needs to be made clear because the abbreviation appeared out of nowhere in this article. Xn00bit (talk) 20:00, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Arbegnoch were involved only aftet the war
The Ethiopian patriot movement ( the Arbegnoch ) only stated in the end of the war or in the late period of the war. They were not evolved during the war. Pokinan (talk) 09:56, 27 July 2022 (UTC)  ☿  Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 11:14, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? The Arbegnoch began to operate in 1935/36. Applodion (talk) 10:42, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Moreover, one could argue that the war didn't end until 1945. Armed resistance went on throughout the years under Italian occupation. If this war had been fought today, there is no way that the Wikipedia article would have used the last conventional battle as an end date. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 20:07, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Casualties
@Applodion @87.236.146.236 That source cited for the Ethiopian casualties of 275,000 is not correct. That website (which seems unreliable) states that the three sources "accept that 275,000 Ethiopians died in combat", however, this is not true. Del Boca explicitly states in his book ''Gli italiani in Africa Orientale - II. La conquista dell'Impero'' (2009) that the 1945 memorandum were made up of "unreliable figures" and that the "most reliable estimate is the Italian one, which estimated them at approximately 40-50,000 men on the northern front and 15-20,000 on the southern front."

Secondly @87.236.146.236 you put 3,350 Italians killed in the infobox citing Sbacchi, however, Sbacchi does not state that number anywhere in his book. Here is what he actually says on pg 33 of his book Ethiopia under Mussolini "In the Ethiopian war nearly 15,000 Italians died and over 200,000 were crippled or wounded" So how am I vandalizing this page and "removing sourced content" if the sources don't even say what you added? Next time read the actual source before making inflammatory edits summaries and accusing editors of bad conduct. If we are using Del Boca's figures for Italian losses then we should use his figures for the Ethiopian losses as well.

Lastly Clodfelter's book does not say that 275,000 Ethiopians were killed in combat. He states that the number included BOTH civilians and military casualties; Ethiopian military and civilian dead, many of them from the barbarous Italian bomb and mustard gas, were estimated as high as 275,000. Essentially, only Sbacchi accepts the 275,000 figure. The rest do not. محرر البوق (talk) 09:14, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Pyrrhic Ethiopian Victory + Dates
After reading abundant sources of texts about the war, I've pondered editing the wiki in turning the result an Ethiopian pyrrhic ictory as the war continued through guerilla warfare after Addis Ababa fell in May 5 until WW2. According to Spirit vs. War-machine: A Patriotic Resistance to Italian Occupation of Ethiopia (1936-1941):

"But the Ethiopians were poised to fight back. The Italians indeed controlled the major towns, yet they could in no way gain control over the vast Ethiopian countryside where the resistance was gathering momentum."

"Not only was the whole objective of their occupation thwarted but also “Never in their quinquennium of rule did the fascists feel secure in Ethiopia, and their anxiety came to border on neurosis”." 2601:483:4A80:7A90:F963:D914:33FD:C23 (talk) 04:14, 21 April 2024 (UTC)


 * I personally wouldn't mind this (German Wikipedia already does something similar), but I'd also be willing to hear other opinions. BeryAb (talk) 20:37, 14 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I suppose you mean "Italian phyrric victory"? Still, no source give it as such, and the result is certainly fine as it is. A Phyrric victory is "a victory that inflicts such a devastating toll on the victor that it is tantamount to defeat". I don't see how it applies here. If we were to read the presence of the later Ethiopian resistance in contrast with plainly calling this an Italian victory that would be a flawed logic, since the birth of all rebellious and partisan movements have as their premise the previous victory of the invading country. The thing is that all the sources, including the book you mentioned, treat as two different things (albeit connected in the way I said above) the 1935-1936 second Italo-Ethiopian war (consistently given as an Italian victory) and the subsequent 1936-1941 resistance and guerrilla that merged into the East African front of WW2 (given as a British, Commonwealth, Arbegnoch victory). Not that this second one is not important, but it does not go under the label "second Italo-Ethiopian war" which is what this article covers. Apart from the fact that we'll go OR, we cannot consistently maintain the principle you are advocating for, as we should re-label a vast amount of articles into even more obviously wrong results; for example the East African campaign (World War II) above mentioned would become a "phyrric victory" because of the further subsequent Italian guerrilla war in Ethiopia, postponing the non-phyrric Allied victory to 1943. Or the Battle of France would become a "German phyrric victory" because French resistance began at the end of it. 2A01:E11:17:40B0:A02A:1239:5751:D438 (talk) 05:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

End date again
There has recently been some back-and-forth editing over the end date once again. My understanding is that there is a consensus on the matter here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Military history/Archive 148. See also Talk:Second_Italo-Ethiopian_War/Archive_1. Paging, who I know is familiar with these past discussions, in case I'm missing anything. Generalrelative (talk) 18:48, 8 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Generalrelative, I was not aware of this discussion, but i definetely think the article used to be correct in giving May 1936 before the change occured to February 1937. To be fair, there are discrepancies on the day in which this war ended, but not on the month or year; a majority of authors give 5 May 1936 (Fall of the capital, Emperor fleeing the country, Italy declaring end of the war and annexation), while several give 9 May 1936 (Victor Emmanuel III takes the title of Emperor). I also say this to answer the question of User:Keith-264 on what's the event used here by historians to mark the end of the war. Some classic books on the matter have been quoted in that discussion but even the most recent ones (2023-2024) continue to give 1935-1936; such as "Mussolini, Mustard Gas and the Fascist Way of War: Ethiopia, 1935-1936." by Stephenson and the "Abyssinian Conquest: The History of the Second Italo-Ethiopian War, 1935-1936" by Jowett. Finding a book for the Italo-Ethiopian war of 1935-1937 is basically impossible, they all give 1935-1936. Later events go usually under the term Ethiopian "resistance", guerrilla or similar. Not that is not important, but it just goes under a different label. 2A01:E11:17:40B0:F04F:E2DD:9F4C:2FC7 (talk) 19:13, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for engaging here. Your argument seems plausible to me. But I'm aware that there's much about this topic that I'm unaware of, which is why I pinged a veteran page watcher. Let's give it some time to see if Indy or anyone else cares to weigh in. Generalrelative (talk) 19:28, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok.2A01:E11:17:40B0:F04F:E2DD:9F4C:2FC7 (talk) 19:33, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Mussolini led the campaign.
Due to the conflict of edits at the campaignbox. Because a editor said King Victor Emmanuel III should be at the top. For your information. The King had no notable participation on the campaign in Ethiopia. Despite some Italian propaganda posters claiming the King had a role in the Ethiopian campaign. In reality. The King had no notable participation at the front and Mussolini took the overall decisions at the front. Ciao from Italy. Jheeeeeeteegh (talk) 04:07, 12 July 2024 (UTC)