Talk:Second Life/Archive 4

What defines something as a competitor to Second Life
Seeing Habbo Hotel added to the list of competitors seems a little strange.

To me, to be listed a competitor to Second Life, the service/product/blah needs to meet at least a few of the following requirements:


 * (Added by Signpostmarv 06:03, 7 October 2006 (UTC)) Be a Virtual World
 * Real time interaction with other users of the service/product/blah over a network (local or internet)
 * (Added by Signpostmarv 03:00, 29 September 2006 (UTC)): Concurrency (total number of users connected to service and/or server) equal to or greater than Second Life
 * User-created content
 * No NPCs other than those as user-created content
 * real-world economy with virtual currency (e.g. the ability so sell virtual currency for real cash and put it into your real bank account)

As near as I can tell, Habbo Hotel only meets one of these requirements.

Entropia Universe meets two, as does Active Worlds.

Ya get the idea.

Thoughts ? Signpostmarv 14:58, 22 September 2006 (UTC) Signpostmarv 20:09, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I think your definition of "competitor" is a little restrictive, to the point of only allowing SL clones. I like this definition from Barron's: "Seller of a product or service whose product or service can be used to fill or satisfy a consumer need (real or imagined) in a market where other sellers offer products that will also fill or satisfy the same need." Now, obviously, this would make virtually anything a competitor to SL, as the "need" that is being filled is quite vague, but I think there are clear "major competitors", which is what I think the section should be called. What games do people leave SL for? What games do people come to SL from? —Trevyn 15:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I haven't heard of many people who have actually used SL (discounting anyone who just picked it up and dropped it) "leaving" it for anything else, but I've heard of people leaving the Sims Online and There to come to SL.

Signpostmarv 20:09, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Regarding the restrictiveness, name things that match only one of those requirements that could be considered a competitor. Or things that match none of the requirements. Those are some of the defining characteristics of SL, and thus for something to compete with SL, it must have something that SL has and possibly something it doesn't.


 * I'm of the opinion that most MMORPGs are similar enough to be considered competitors, and they only meet the first of your requirements. Text-based MUDs meet 2-3. —Trevyn 21:53, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * A lot of MMORPGs now include the ability for users to create weapons, items and clothing, however that's pushing it. Let me add another to the list. New one rules out things online versions of Neverwinter Nights (You can't have as many people on one server at once. A single module compared to a single sim perhaps, but a module in NwN can be much biger than 16 acres) as a competitor now. Signpostmarv 03:00, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Updated the list of "requirements" after deleting Meez

Cutting down article bloat
Article size is currently about 37Kb. Methinx the next thing that could be taken out of the main article and put in another one are the two business & organisations sections. If it is agreed that the business & organisations sections are to get shipped off to another article next, what would the title of the article be ? If you think there are any other suggestions for shipping sub sections off to full articles/stubs, now would be a good time to say so.

Signpostmarv 03:17, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Oookay, so it's currently 42Kb. I'm thinking Businesses and Organisations (Second Life) with and  . Although to fit in with the spelling on the Wikipedia, it should probably be Businesses and Organizations (Second Life) with a #REDIRECT Businesses and Organisations (Second Life). That would take off about 7Kb btw. Signpostmarv 06:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Despite stripping out the requirements section after moving the content to the infobox, the size of the article is still increasing. Another candidate I'm proposing is Second Life/Businesses and Organizations. Signpostmarv 06:08, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Another option- move Second Life to Second Life/Issues and criticisms, since it is the largest section in the article. Signpostmarv 05:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Just an extra note for article size references; At the time of writing:
 * Article size is about 47kb (Notepad++ reports 48219 bytes)
 * Second Life contributes to about 1/3rd of the article size
 * Second Life contributes about 1/5th of the article size.


 * Since I've noticed the filesize of the article has been steadily increasing since the 29th of September (it's now 51kb btw), and since I've been commenting about the state of the situation every so often, if nobody disagrees, I'll be moving Second Life to Second Life/Issues and criticisms near the end of the week, since it is the largest section in the article, since it's not significant enough to move to it's own article (as perhaps, the Businesses section might be).
 * Signpostmarv 02:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Teen Second Life client snapshots
Snapshots for the Teen Grid, and the Teen Grid client can be procured via |Snapzilla's Teen SL photos, so if anyone wants to find a citation comparing the main grid client with the teen grid client, that'd be the place to look. Or ask. Signpostmarv 23:49, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Abbreviation for "Square Metres"
I believe the proper way to represent the unit "square metres" is "m2" (or if you don't do superscripts "m^2".) Someone keeps systematically editing the land sales section to show "square metres" as "2metre". Aside from the fact that the letter "m" is the standard metric system abbreviation for "metre", I believe the power goes after the unit, not before. User:TimothyHorrigan Timothy Horrigan 17:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, I believe that someone is me. I'm not too sure about the representation, although with afterthought, I do agree it is m2, not 2metre. Bad habit of mis-interpretation of spoken forms of abbreviation, sorry. Signpostmarv 17:35, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Signpostmarv 05:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Issue has been taken care of.

DOWN!?!?!
I just made an account, but it's down! When will it be back online? Einstein runner 02:32, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * For updates regarding downtime, see . For general updates see Signpostmarv 05:58, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * A note: Once you've left Help Island, you're not allowed to go back (logging out doesn't count) Signpostmarv 05:58, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Protect article and/or block User:Msbjustice
I'm getting rather sick of editing the article to correct for User:Msbjustice FUD edits, lack of wikification edits, and vandalism edits. I'm also getting rather sick reverting User:Msbjustice's attempts to cover up the request to have Second Life Lawsuit : Bragg v. Linden, et al deleted.


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Second_Life&action=history
 * Special:Contributions/Msbjustice
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Second_Life_Lawsuit_:_Bragg_v._Linden%2C_et_al&action=history
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:DumbBOT/ProdSummary&action=history

I request that the article be protected and/or User:Msbjustice be blocked.

Signpostmarv 15:53, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I too request that User:Signpostmarv be blocked from editing those pages that Msbjustice has edited as he is attempting to provide his own color of facts and issues rather than objective reporting. The article created by Msbjustice has been adequately edited but Signpostmarv continues to repost it for deletion despite that no one else pays him / her any attention. The previous unsigned comment was placed in the body of the request by User:Msbjustice on 18:04, 8 October 2006

I request that the article provided by Msbjustice, and edited by same be protected and/or User:Signpostmarv be blocked.

Msbjustice 15:58, 8 October 2006


 * I also don't appreciate personal attacks being made against me and having the request interfered with. see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Second_Life&action=history Signpostmarv 16:32, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Campaigning to have someone banned is liable to get both of you blocked for incivility. Take it to Mediation Cabal or Requests for arbitration and stop flame warring on an article talk page. --  Netsnipe  ►  19:08, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

tsl map
the map is redicculiosly out of date The previous unsigned comment was added 02:42, 9 October 2006 by 65.96.212.206


 * It might be, but a) getting a hold of screenshots from Teen SL requires knowing someone on the Teen Grid, or breaking the TOS. I'll see if I can get one of the Lindens to provide some fresher content. Signpostmarv 00:53, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Usage of terms in Second Life
Signpostmarv 00:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Without spliting hairs into what is defined by each term (between Escort and Prostitute), the term most associated with sex work in Second Life is Escort. Compare Search for escort with Search for prostitute
 * 2) Sex with animals is bestiality. Sex with furries is sex with someone who just happens to be wearing an animal suit.
 * 3) *If someone has the appearence of an animal and they are roleplaying in the context of an animal, it is bestiality. Or just interspecies sex. Not sure how sex between two different species is covered :-P
 * 4) *If someone has the appearence of an animal and they aren't roleplaying in the context of an animal, it is just sex with someone in an animal suit. Take into account the usage of the term Outfit in the user interface and documentation.

Category:Unknown-importance computer and video game articles
Just wondering what "qualifies" Second Life to be included in this category. Signpostmarv 06:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Second Life
Uhh... last time I checked, neither personal blogs or forums could be used as sources. The full article link is not a full article. It's an aggregator linking to a short post on a personal blog. Btw, I'm keeping away from editing this section unless I see something grossly wrong with it.

Signpostmarv 16:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Second Life
This section seems to be mostly false, since the Second Life TOS only refers to Resident Names, not group names. Section 2.3

Since I don't want to get stuck into an edit war with people again, I'm only flagging it for sources etc etc, and strongly advising that someone else check it out whether it needs deleting.

Signpostmarv 17:42, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Source for currency exchange data
http://valleywag.com/tech/second-life/virtual-worlds-supposed-economy-is-a-pyramid-scheme-230813.php

The Second Life section includes a blurb about the best exchange rate for selling L$. You need to be logged in to view https://secondlife.com/currency/sell.php. Is that a valid source, since you have to be a member to view it ? I'm thinking no. If it isn't a valid source, is it a case of stripping out the info till something relevant turns up on the Official Linden Blog ?

Signpostmarv 15:21, October 9, 2006 (UTC)


 * No. In situations where a login is required, leave the source there for people who can login, and put in a blurb.
 * (yes I'm aware I'm talking to myself)
 * Signpostmarv 00:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe [secondlife.reuters.com] has the exchange rate on its news page. Rhialto 01:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Sources from the SL Forums
The Second Life Forums require login. The Blog doesn't. It'd be handy if links referring to official statements made by employees were replaced with links to the blog where appropriate.

Also, since the Linden blog is now a centralised place for employee blogging, any links pointing to their individual blogs should probably be updated as well. Signpostmarv 16:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:SIZE; Dividing out Second Life/Issues and criticisms
As per my understanding of WP:SIZE, and my observations and statements on Talk:Second_Life/Archive3, I divided the article up in order to reduce the length of the article.

If my understanding of the WP:SIZE guidelines is incorrect, I apologise. I did make small edits to Second Life prior to dividing up the article if this is the case, so as to avoid the need to remake the edits.

Signpostmarv 07:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Note that the article size is now at the level it was when I originally noticed the problem on the 29th September.
 * Signpostmarv 07:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * This strikes me as a POV Fork; the one section with negative information on Second Life was moved out to another article. I propose that we restore some of that content here and break out multiple sections to new articles (e.g., Economy of Second Life) to avoid the appearance of POV. | Mr. Darcy talk 16:28, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Had anyone suggested this while I was asking for comments on how to handle the situation, I would've gone for that.
 * You are quite right to note that some of the sections of the article are in need of expansion, and that WP:POVFORKs are undesirable.
 * Since most of the issues and criticisms pertain to specific aspects of Second Life (Economy, Land, User-created content), I do agree with your suggestion to break them out into articles such as Economy of Second Life. I'm also suggesting User-generated content (Second Life), Land (Second Life) or Real estate (Second Life), moving the Other list back into the main article, break out Teen Second Life into it's own article or stub (although I'm unsure about that one), and break out Businesses and Organizations in Second Life into a list type article, with a summary relating to the economy, land and user-created content features of SL allowing for people to start businesses and for real-world entities to enter into Second Life remaining in the main article.
 * Signpostmarv 17:17, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I couldn't have said it any better - that's an outstanding set of suggestions. And I am comfortable with breaking Teen Second Life into its own article. By moving those details out, perhaps we can get more meat here on what Second Life itself really is - how it works, what the goals are, why people are using it, etc. As the article stands now, it's all detail, as if we've skipped the intermediate step (the same problem that prompted my request for expansion on the Economy section. Let's give other editors a chance to weigh in, but if there are no objections, consider me signed up to help you with this. | Mr. Darcy talk 18:58, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The only thing that concerns me about the Teen Second Life article is the lack of information on it- since adults aren't allowed there, it's difficult to comply with WP:V without breaking their TOS.
 * I've contacted one of the Liasons who works on both the Main and Teen grids, to see if anything can be done regarding jump-starting the Teen Grid Resident's interests in helping out on the Wikipedia.
 * Signpostmarv 20:50, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm also concerned whether or not it would have separate articles for Land and Real Esteate- or at least leave the technical information about the land in the main article, and the information about the buying, selling development of land be linked up with a summary in the main article to Real Estate (Second Life)
 * Signpostmarv 18:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Considering that the conversion of references just bumped up the article size to 50kb, methinx we need to start planning the article breakouts now :-P
 * Signpostmarv 03:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I assumed we would just pull out each level-1 section into its own article, leaving a summary graf here in this main article. Is that a bad idea? | Mr. Darcy talk 03:43, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Well yes, because not every level-1 section is relevant enough to warrant it's own article.
 * Anywoo, since the topic of this thread is starting to shift towards a different topic, and the number of indentations is getting ridiculously high, I'm going to start a new topic for the migration :-P
 * Signpostmarv 12:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I did mean to refer just to sections that had enough meat to form their own articles. But yes, good thought on the new thread - I'll see you below! | Mr. Darcy talk

Teen Second Life Client
Insofar as I know, all differences are server side for Residents of the Teen Grid. Would it be permissable to get a quote on that from an admin, or is that still considered original research? 65.104.16.76 20:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I can tell you right now. Im not an admin, but there is only one version of the file for mac, one for windows, and one for linux(alpha). There are no differences in software, s there is only this one download(per platform).--Vox Causa 22:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the only way to solve the issue in order to satisfy WP:V would be to have a Linden make a blurb on the Linden Blog or Knowledge Base, since having a third party go in to take screenshots to compare the clients would violate the TOS, and also be very weak under WP:V. So methinx it's a case of find an official statement or strip it out completely. Signpostmarv 06:06, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Accidentally deleted
Was doing an edit to remove something entirely unnecessary and unrelated to second life and accidentally deleted the following section, I'm not sure how to go about restoring it:

Sample Live Musicians and Venues
Examples of live musicians who perform weekly include: Astrin Few (Jazz, Pop - Vocal, Guitar), Flaming Moe (Jazz - Saxaphone), Frogg Marlowe (Original Folk and Blues - Vocal, Acoustic, Harmonica, Piano)  and  Jaycatt Nico (New Age, Boogie, Jazz - Keyboard, Piano, Melodica). Examples of popular bands include Keltish (Traditional and contemporary Irish Music - Vocal, Violin, Guitar, Harp). Several Second Life live musicians perform under both Avatar Name and Real Name and include links to their real world web sites for CD and MP3 sales.(For examples see: and ) Additionally, several established professional musicians are now beginning to perform inworld as well, including Cletis Carr (Billy Thunders), ] (Cylindrian Rutabaga), James Holland (SinginCountry Commander), and Kevin Burdick (Kevin Noble).

Live music concerts are scheduled daily at multiple live music venues across Second Life. Examples include Lily Pad Lounge, The Blarney Stone, The Roc,Old Salt's Pub, The Hummingbird Cafe.

Some musicians are now experimenting with a "daisy chain" system where the first artist plays into a stream which is picked up by a second artist. This artist plays following the lead of the first artist, sending the the combined music stream into Second Life. The term coined for this is "meta jams" (page 22).

As of Fall 2006 there were about 40 live music artists and 30 live music venues with more being added monthly. The growth of Second Life music is documented in several Second Life media including The Metaverse Messenger published weekly online in PDF format.

If someone else could drop it in that'd be appreciated.


 * DONE Sitearm | Talk 03:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Removed the kit list.
The kit list of a Second Life band is useless in the context of second life. Instead of listing what sorts of instruments you have and the mixer you use (as I'm pretty sure from the glowing reviews posted of the band that it was most likely posted BY a band member) try posting the process involved. The only thing I got out of your section that even remotely informed me about what was unique about playing music on second life was the "four computers with an avatar technician" line.

Talk more about that and less about what guitar you use. This isn't a music article.

Kalemika 06:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * So you're claiming WP:NPOV ?
 * What glowing review are you referring to ?
 * Why are you deleting the section instead of rewording it ?
 * Signpostmarv 07:22, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The section has no real importance in terms of Second Life. I'm not saying the band shouldn't post their kit list, but have them do it in their own article. The kit list of a band that plays on Second Life is not part of Second Life itself. Perhaps we can add a link to an article ABOUT Keltish in the section above, and in there can be placed the kit list. For the most part, someone coming for information on Second Life would really have no interest in the instruments Keltish plays. Instead there should be a brief summary of the process of performing on Second Life.
 * 66.240.35.207 20:21, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I see absolutely no reason why this section should be included. The specifications and set up for a live performance has no place in a general article about Second Life. I strongly suggest it be removed or rewritten to be less specific. -Kraw Night 03:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * If there's no further argument on the topic, I'm going to re-word this to be a very brief paragraph in the near future.
 * Kalemika 14:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. This section should at the very least be reduced to a small generic paragraph. The kit list is far too specific and worse still, may make some people believe that they really can only do this kind of thing with, for example, a mackie mixer. It's obvious that this is a kit list for a specific band and as such has no relevance in the main SL article. I would move to remove the section completely. Angelstorm 19:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * A brief paragraph with a link to the full info on their own site would be preferred.
 * Signpostmarv 22:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I love Wikipedia o..O ... a separate entire article will be prepared instead -- Sitearm | Talk 06:54, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Added technical information back a second time with commentary here
Hi Kalemika! Thanks for signing your delete and discussing here on this page. I have added the info back a second time and added my supporting discussion below as well.

I take issue with your saying that how live music is played in second life has "nothing to do with second life". The Second Life support wiki explicitly includes mention that streaming music is an integral part of second life (e.g., ).

The technical section is relevant as it shows how residents who are musicians create the stream using an audio streaming client and stream. Instead of arguing by deleting material, I agree with Signpostmarv: make a wording edit that addresses your concern.

More sections are needed, actually, such as how residents who are disc jockeys create streams as well. :) -- Sitearm | Talk 09:10, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Pre-emptively combating article bloat, should information about things you can do with Second Life go under Second Life/Thing X, Second Life/Thing Y, Second Life/Thing Z etc, e.g. Second Life/Live Music or Live music (Second Life)
 * Signpostmarv 10:50, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Like I said above, streaming music IS an important part of Second Life. The manner in which it's being posted, however, is not. We do not need five sub-sections on the different types of kit that one band on SL uses, but rather a brief summary of Keltish's approach to performance on Second Life with a link to an article about the band itself that can list its kit specifically. I'm not saying don't explain it. But instead of that long list that dominates a good portion of the page, how about "Keltish plays their music live, the sound is fed into a mixer and then onto a computer which streams it onto the internet?" Make Keltish a link to a separate article, the stuff we have now can go there.
 * 66.240.35.207 20:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * If you check the history log, you'll see I wikified the list so it was more semantic, and less sucky. It was styled in a complete mess, rendering things as headers, subsections and lists, but not coding them as such.
 * Audio streaming is a supported technology of Second Life. Technicaly speaking, since this relates to the activities of Second Life Residents, and not SL or the activities of Linden Lab in SL, this section should probably be summarised and moved over to Resident (Second Life) if it's not moved to Second Life/Live Music or Live music (Second Life).
 * Signpostmarv 21:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Compare/Contrast with Sims & MMORPGs
I'm very surprised to read this entry and not one mentions of The Sims! How does this compare? More readers will be familiar with the Sims, so compare SL to something they already know? --68.103.154.140 03:59, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * TSO maybe. The Sims stand alone, hell no. Second Life is as similar to the standalone sims as Second Life is to playing with lego bricks. Also, see Talk:Second Life/Archive3.
 * The Sims (offline) is a single player god game, Second Life is neither single player nor a god game.
 * Signpostmarv 05:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Just so you know, rather than list it as a competitor or mention it in the article, it might be time to start thinking about a tabular feature comparison rather than just saying "product x is like product y". That's not informative in the slightest if you have no idea about product x OR product y.
 * Signpostmarv 05:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Something missing here?
I may well be wrong, and correct me if so, but shouldn't this article give some explanation about what Second Life is, apart from just saying it's a virtual world? What do people do there, apart from owning land? And so forth. As it stands, it seems that the article just lists various properties of Second Life without really telling what they are properties of. For example, I read that "the group tools received many improvements". Well, that's nice, but what are the group tools? Ville V. Kokko 17:59, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


 * There's a problem with documenting the activities of Residents in SL in a manner that satisfies WP:V.
 * There's also a huge amount of activities to document, and considering the article is suffering from page bloat already, is it inside the scope of the Wikipedia to document everything people get up to in-world ?
 * I agree though, the information about the client itself is sorely lacking- again a matter of satisfying WP:V
 * Signpostmarv 22:39, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Ville in general terms. In particular, I found it bizarre to have an entire entry about a virtual world without even mention of what people do there. Things that people do in second life: socialize, build environments for others to interact in, customize their avatar, shop, join groups, role play, play games, engage in virtual sex, gamble, dance. --24.59.73.55 05:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I added a bit more but maybe not enough to satisfy you. Metamagician3000 14:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * By the way, the article is now much sparser than it was back in October, with so much having been hived off elsewhere and the deletion of dubious material. There's probably room to put back a little bit of the material that I chopped out but which can still be found in the Resident (Second Life) article, for example. Metamagician3000 00:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)