Talk:Second Life/Archive 8

First Look Viewer
Is the First Look (Second Life Viewer) worth noting? I don't even know what it is, I came here looking for info on it and instead ended up creating a stub. thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hyperdivision (talk • contribs) 21:36, 12 February 2007 (UTC).


 * Probably not. The First Look Viewer information should be contained within the Second Life article. You may wish to add the   template to the page. You can find info on the First Look Viewer in the archives of the Official Linden Blog. If you use Second Life, and your frame rate sucks you'll love the FLSL (pronounced Fooly Sooly ?) viewer- I get between 10 and 30fps increases :-D (Radeon X800 GTO (AGP) w/ 256mb RAM)
 * Signpostmarv 23:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps more importantly, the article's text is directly copied from the official SL page. Please do not do this as it is a copyright violation. I have tagged the article for speedy deletion on this basis. --Pak21 08:20, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It was indeed a copyvio, though doubtless done with the best of intentions. I've speedy deleted it. Metamagician3000 10:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Just a question- is it a copyvio if the text is copied from the Second Life Viewer itself, which is released under the GPL ?
 * Signpostmarv 15:13, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No . Yes. The GPL requires that all derivative works are licensed under the GPL. Wikipedia is licensed under the GFDL. --Pak21 16:08, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Uh, that sounds like that means "yes, it's a copyvio", not "no"? —AySz88\ ^ - ^ 17:44, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * D'oh. Thanks. --Pak21 18:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Education in Second Life
To follow up on the edit about Education in Second Life (3.5), anyone interested can see it first hand on Berkman Island. This is the island owned by Harvard University, administered by the Berkman Center for Internet and Society at Harvard Law School. Currently, there is a course that meets on Tuesday evenings and is open to at-large participants. Everyone is welcome to join the dialogue.


 * Can whoever wrote this section correct it so that it does not say "last semester"? Even now, it is not clear to me when "last semester" began and ended in the northern hemisphere. Someone reading the article in a year's time will be even more confused, even if they come from North America. Can it be changed to say "in the 2006 fall semester", or whatever the correct terminology may be? Metamagician3000 00:35, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * FYI, the SLurl for Berkman Island is - http://slurl.com/secondlife/Berkman/114/53/24 -. // Internet Esquire 04:03, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi there! I'm hoping I'm adding this in the right place, as I'm still a "newbie" to the editing process of Wiki. I was looking at your "Education in Second Life" section of the wiki, and wanted to add to the list of schools that the University of Louisville in Louisville, KY currently uses Second Life for a few of their classes. I was going to go ahead and add this myself, but wanted to make sure this was all right. Thanks! --Sokababe04 (talk) 17:39, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Computer formats
Ok guys i just joined but my computer is a ME and it says that second life supports XP and mac and windows 2000 (4) something like that. anyways if i try to install the client to my windows ME edition computer will it cause it to crash my computer (and lose data or something) or is that warning just a disclaimer that means you can still play the game? i need to know please so i can decide weather to get a new computer or just stick with the old one. Maverick423 22:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * This talk page is for discussing the Second Life article; if you're after technical information, you should try the offical Second Life forums instead --Pak21 22:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * As Pak says, try the Second Life: Technical Issues forum. &mdash;Slowspace 00:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Pak has politely reminded me that you won't be able to access the official Second Life forums unless you've logged in to Second Life at least once, and have valid payment info on file for your account. Try one of the unofficial forums instead (such as Stratics: Second Life), or search the Second Life Knowledge Base. &mdash;Slowspace 12:24, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * http://secondlife.com/knowledgebase/article.php?id=013
 * Question:

Will Second Life work on my Windows 98, 98SE, Milennium Edition, or ME computer?

Answer: Second Life requires Windows 2000 or Windows XP, and the program does not work on older versions of Windows. You will need to use Windows 2000 or Windows XP to use Second Life.
 * Signpostmarv 14:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

ah thanks much on this issue guysMaverick423 14:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Is it "resident" or "Resident"?
I prefer the former but I see that it's now often "Resident" in the article. I won't change any more, given the number of them. I think we need to agree on one or the other and stick with it. What do people think? Metamagician3000 06:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The official SL website should be our guide in this matter. Here are a few quotes from it:
 * "Second Life Videos – Check out resident-created Second Life videos at our media page."
 * "Second Life is a 3-D virtual world entirely built and owned by its residents."
 * "You'll also be surrounded by the Creations of your fellow residents. Because residents retain the rights to their digital creations, they can buy, sell and trade with other residents."
 * So it should probably be "resident". &mdash;Slowspace 09:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, thanks - that's totally fine with me. Let's be consistent about using a lower-case "r", unless anyone comes up with a cogent objection very soon. Metamagician3000 10:02, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I see that Signpostmarv has taken the other view and reverted my initial changes from "Resident" to "resident" before I posted on the talk page, so we'd better give him some time to support it before going ahead and changing them all to lowercase. Metamagician3000 10:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm currently waiting upon a response from Robin Linden (Robin Harper, Vice President, Community Development and Support @ Linden Lab) to make a post here.
 * I did have a private conversation with Robin over Skype, and I'll need to get permission to post the chat log, but Robin did say that Jeska Linden decided it should be capitalised. Robin wasn't sure as to why the decision was made, but I offered the following theory:
 * A citizen of England is an Englishman, not an englishman.
 * A citizen of America is an American, not an american.
 * A citizen of Second Life is a Resident, not a resident.
 * So.... either way, please hold off until I've had permission to post the chat log from our conversation here, or Robin gets time out of her busy schedule to post a response on the SL Wiki.
 * Btw, in case you're concerned about the "no-wiki" rule of "not knowing who made a post", the SL Wiki is tied into the SL Authenticatation system in such a way that a SL Wiki user has the same username as their SL avatar, and that any SL wiki user with the last name "Linden" (as is the case in-world) is a Linden Lab employee.
 * Signpostmarv 17:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * That look like abuse of teh English language. Consider teh following counter example:


 * A citizen of England is a resident of England.
 * A citizen of America is a resident of America.
 * A citizen of Second Life is a (R/r)esident of Second Life.


 * Using the format in your example, you should be saying something like "A citizen of Second Life is a Second Lifian." Resident breaks that pattern, because it isn't an adjective formed from a proper noun. Of course, all that is irrelevant if LL decides it should be so for their own marketing purposes. It won't be the first corporate abuse of the English language after all. Rhialto 22:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * A citizen of Liverpool is a Liverpudlian.
 * A Liverpudlian is a citizen of Liverpool.
 * A citizen of Second Life is a Resident.
 * A Resident is a citizen of Second Life.
 * Seems perfectly valid to me.
 * Signpostmarv 05:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The term "Resident" is used to describe an inhabitant of the virtual world of Second Life, just as "American" is used to describe an inhabitant of America, "Englishman" is used to describe a (male) inhabitant of England, "Liverpudlian" is used to describe an inhabitant of Liverpool.
 * Signpostmarv 05:53, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The term "Resident" is used to describe an inhabitant of the virtual world of Second Life, just as "American" is used to describe an inhabitant of America, "Englishman" is used to describe a (male) inhabitant of England, "Liverpudlian" is used to describe an inhabitant of Liverpool.
 * Signpostmarv 05:53, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

(breaking indent) My point is that those capitalised adjectives are capitalised because they are derived from a proper noun, not because they are being used to describe a person inhabiting a particular country. There are quite a few examples of other capitalised adjectives erived from proper nouns which DON'T describe citizenship in any way.

Truthfully, they aren't using "resident" in its usual meaning in the English language. The word isn't derived from a proper noun, so teh capitalization, whether it be official policy or not, is certainly non-standard (simialr to how "eBay" is non-standard capitalization). Rather, they are using it as a jargon term. As such, I'd say the grammatically correct approach as prescribed by most style guides would be to place the word in italics.

Basically, unless a their official policy says otherwise, I'd say the word should be made lowercase and italicized. Rhialto 06:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd disagree with italicising it, as I don't see which bit of WP:MOS applies. --Pak21 08:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think it really matters which we use so long as we're consistent about it. If we need to make a decision, a quick scan of the current posts on blog.secondlife.com shows a mixture of "resident" and "Resident" in use, and the Knowledge Base is equally inconsistent. If we get an official statement from a Linden on the matter, let's go with that. If we don't, let's not worry about it. Cheers --Pak21 17:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I hope we resolve this issue before we get noticed by WP:LAME :-) &mdash;Slowspace 12:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL, but still ... Metamagician3000 00:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * SL Wiki, Origin of the term 'Resident'
 * Robin tells me she's passed this along to "Jeska, who developed the style guide", so we should see something regarding the official policy of "Resident" over "resident" soon :-)
 * Signpostmarv 17:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The Physics of Second Life?
Lacking experience of Second Life, I'd be happy if someone wrote about the physical constraints in SL, it could be a separate article. Is there a physics engine underneath? Do objects have gravity? Can violence be inflicted on objects or avatars? What are the limits of travel speed? etc etc. 133.186.102.42 04:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Not a full article, just some notes on the physics...

SL uses the Havoc engine (but there has been talk for a long time of upgrading to a later version). Objects (and avatars) have mass. One llgetweight (mass?) unit, as defined by the scripting engine, works out as being 0.1 cubic metres (yep, it is technically a unit of volume, not mass). Avatar 'mass' is purely a function of avatar height. Mass is only relevant for physical interaction between objects that have physics enabled. All other objects do not interact in terms of game physics; they effectively have infinite mass. Gravity generally pulls objects downwards, with increasing force as you go up, so that it is effectively impossible to rise above 200m or so without special scripted assistance. Objects do not have their own gravity; gravity is only exerted by the 'planet' itself.

Someone else can tidy that up into a section. I don't think there is really enough to justify a full article on the topic. Rhialto 04:53, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Linden Lab use completely made up measurements.
 * Objects don't have gravity, but they can be scripted to mimic the effects of gravity.
 * Yes violence can be inflicted on avatars- but only in areas designated for it (most of SL isn't)
 * Objects need to be scripted to respond to collisions via the collision_start, collision and collision_end events to be the subject of "violence"
 * Inter-sim speed is limited by the region transfer time
 * within a sim, script-assisted speed is dependant upon the energy made available to the object doing the flight.
 * Gravity
 * Unassisted, you can fly up to approx 170m above the terrain mesh
 * Unassisted, you can hover up to 50m above the terrain mesh
 * Signpostmarv 05:48, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Signpostmarv 05:48, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for informative answers. In particular, I am interested in how the economics of SL are related to physics. If users are close to omnipotent, it is hard to see how anything can be of value. What about virtual energy and materials? Can users "invent" new materials or energy arbitrarily, or does it take some kind of cost?
 * 133.186.102.42 05:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


 * There is almost no relationship between SL physics and the SL economy; any relationship is coincidental at best. However, users are NOT anywhere near omnipotent. technically, there is nothing to stop you building a complete functioning space shuttle, so in that sense perhaps you are omnipotent. The real value lies in knowledge - do you know how to build it? As for energy and materials... scripts require "energy", which as I understand it is really just a timer to put a brake on some of the more cpu-intensive or abused script commands. the only way to make more of it is to wait, and it can't be stockpiled or traded. Materials presumably refers to prims, and the only real limit there is that a given parcel of land can only have so many (approximately 1 per 4 m2) rezzed at a time. Rhialto 08:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Each region is limited to 15,000 primitives.
 * While there is a wide variety of content available in-world, if you wish to upload your own sounds, images or animations, it's L$10 per item of content.
 * Sounds are limited to 10 seconds per audio clip.
 * Signpostmarv 16:23, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I have some light to shine on this discussion, I am an expert coder/builder/tinker in Second Life. As I am aware of coding you can make an "object" that allows you to actually follow physics in Second Life it would cost around $50 USD in Linden Dollars because every movement and action needs to be accounted for but it is possible, as I think of it there is a town that actually follows physics to the tee. Trying to think of the name of the town... can't think of it right now I'll look around for it and report back.CrazySain (talk) 00:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What the hell are you talking about ?
 * Signpostmarv (talk) 22:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Language Please, and you can create a code so your character conforms to gravityCrazySain (talk) 00:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Let me rephrase: Sense; your message; it makes none.
 * USD$50 is approximately L$12,500
 * Making an object use Havok is a case of
 * The performance of a physics engine written entirely in LSL would be so abysmal as to render that price tag extortionate
 * Avatars react to "gravity" by default, requiring no additional scripting.
 * Signpostmarv (talk) 11:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Notable Residents
It has occurred to me that, sooner or later, people may want to create articles about some of teh more notable residents within SL. Of course, where a given avatar is closely identified with a RL person, there are already well-defined standards for determing notability (in the context of whether a person should have an article in wp). But I would say there are a number of avatars that are potentially notable, but do not have a RL person identifiably associated with them.

As such, I suggest we put together a set of guidelines to decide under what circumstances a SL avatar should be considered sufficiently notable to justify an article about them. I expect it would largely mirror RL criteria, but it would be useful to formally organise this before a flood of avatar articles appear.

As an example, one of the avatar articles is in because the avatar in question was interviewed in a number of newspapers regarding a certain topic. But the articles were about the toppic, not the avatar, so I'm not sure whether that would be considered a trivial mention or not. It is why we need to formalise this. Rhialto 06:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Aside from the list on Resident (Second Life), a place to start for use-cases would be User:Signpostmarv
 * Signpostmarv 14:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd consider adding Simon Walsh (rl name Simon Stevens) to the list. He has been fairly active in using SL to promote awareness of disability issues. Rhialto 02:51, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Recent minor restructuring
I don't really agree with all the recent (admittedly fairly minor) restructuring. Part of the effect has been to move detail into the lead, which should really just be an overview of the article, and should have very few (or ideally no) references, because the relevant references appear where the summarised points are made in the body of the article. An ideal lead is about three paras, rather than the five paras we now have - once it gets that long it's a good clue that we are putting too much of the detail in the wrong place. Also, the whole section about Second Life as the Metaverse now seems incorrectly titled, because the section is no longer making that point - it has been shifted to the lead.

I won't make any unilateral changes back, because some of what was done may nonetheless have been a good idea, and I'd like to see some discussion. Overall, though, I think that the previous version was better and that some changes should now be made to try to regain the strengths of the previous version - without losing any genuine improvements that have been introduced. Cheers! Metamagician3000 07:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I have been bold and done some restructuring which, in my opinion, was needed. I've been feeling for a while that the organisation of information in the article is not great. It gave the impression that the article had grown bit by bit, with contributions by many separate authors, and that the contents of some sections would now be better placed elsewhere.


 * I have now tried to trim down the lead a bit, by moving a few bits of info out to other sections. I agree that the Metaverse section needs to be retitled - how about "Features of the virtual world"?


 * If anyone feels I have been too bold in my restructuring, please let's have a discussion here, rather than an edit war :-) Thanks. &mdash;Slowspace 11:16, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * "Features of the virtual world" works for me. I made that change. Metamagician3000 04:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Can one only play music into microphones?
'Live music performances take place in Second Life, in the sense that of vocal and instrumental music by Second Life Residents can be provided from their homes and studios. This is played into microphones, uploaded to audio streams, and played in-world for the enjoyment of other Residents.'

Unless, I am reading the meaning of intrumental wrong, This paragraph states that one can only play music in SecondLife when one plays into a microphone. If this is true,what I am presuming, then what about audio wires? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raistlin Dragonlance (talk • contribs) 16:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Live music pretty much requires a microphone. I'm not personally aware of any technological means to convert sounds to digital data without a microphone being involved. Pre-recorded music can of course be played into SL, using the same technology that internet radio stations use.


 * (ps. please sign your posts by typing four tilde marks (~)


 * Rhialto 00:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Any instrument with a line-out capability (eg. keyboards, electric violins, electroacoustic guitars) can be played live into SL without a microphone. The line-out signal is connected to the sound input socket on the computer. The sentence in the article should be reworded, I think. &mdash;Slowspace 10:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

GA/FA
There are a couple of points that still need citing, but this is starting to look really good. If whoever wrote those sentences with citation tags on them could back them up soon, it'd be nice to apply for good article status for this article ... then maybe think about the process for peer review and perhaps applying for FA status (with something much more solid this time). Metamagician3000 03:16, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Currently working on grabbing citation tags- got them for COpybot, looking for the recently published metrics to back up the daily cycle of logins. Aspengrey 16:40, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Images
If you see here, it is (apparently) almost impossible to create images in Second Life, and to have copyright, because you must have created every element "photographed" from scratch. While this sounds odd to me as a proposition in intellectual property law, I have to accept it. This seems like a pity because we really need to try to convey the look of the world - apart from the fact that it was not entirely straightforward creating the avatars and other images that I did to illustrate Second Life articles. Well, anyone got any ideas? Maybe we'll have to write to Linden Lab and ask if they can provide images that they're prepared to release to Wikipedia. Does anyone have contacts there? You'd think it would be in their interests to help us illustrate the article attractively, but the images would have to be released under the GFDL. Metamagician3000 10:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Go on flickr and look for Creative Commons licensed photos by Second Life Residents. Shots of individual avatars or their own content likely won't violate this rule.
 * How does this rule affect RL photographers who take photos in public spaces ?
 * Signpostmarv 12:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The thing is, those people would not have the ability to grant copyright for their shots any more than I do for mine if this rule is correct unless the avatar and its clothing etc was all created by the Resident from scratch.
 * I find it hard to believe that the rule is correct - I don't see how I am infringing on someone's intellectual property in SL just by (say) taking a photo of an avatar I created that (for example) uses a skin or an item of clothing that I bought from another person. It seems to me that all Linden is saying is that the code the other person used is copyright. Also, as you imply, this rule would mean we would not be able to take any photos at all in a public space or any space that we did not wholly design ourselves ... yet we are encouraged to do exactly that. And as for all those little movies on YouTube ...
 * However, while I find this interpretation implausible, it's what is being put to me and will presumably be put to anyone who replaces the images that I created with images of their own ... or with images from sites such as you referred to. At the moment, I am in no position to argue against it. All I know is what is in the link that I've put above. Unless we can get the Linden people to help out in some way, it looks like we're stuck, because this is the way people who police images on SL are viewing it. OTOH, if you think you can argue against it, you can go to the images for deletion page that I linked to and have your say there. Metamagician3000 13:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You also understand and agree that by submitting your Content to any area of the Service, you automatically grant (or you warrant that the owner of such Content has expressly granted) to Linden Lab and to all other users of the Service a non-exclusive, worldwide, fully paid-up, transferable, irrevocable, royalty-free and perpetual License, under any and all patent rights you may have or obtain with respect to your Content, to use your Content for all purposes within the Service.
 * Signpostmarv 21:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, that might be the answer. Would you please go to the link I provided above and join the debate? I can see what the reply is likely to be - that in putting the images on Wikipedia I am not using the content "within the Service" (i.e. within SL), but it's worth having this out. Meanwhile, I'm going to pop over to the SL site and see if it gives me any other clues. Metamagician3000 22:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I've written a long (but hopefully not so long that their eyes will glaze over) email to Linden Lab explaining the problem and asking what they think. Whether anything will come of it is another question, but it seems to be in their interest to have the article illustrated in a way that shows the look and feel of SL. Metamagician3000 22:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I've also drawn Jimbo's attention to the problem, though there's nothing I really expect him to do. Metamagician3000 05:16, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You'd probably want to contact Torley or Robin.
 * Signpostmarv 13:27, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[Un-indent]Good thinking. I followed up by sending an IM to Torley. You can see the substance of what I sent on Jimbo's talk page. Metamagician3000 13:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Creation and copyright
I asked for a citation here in paragraph 5, and I think it's worth adding that I believe there's a rather gross factual error here in that there are no secondary levels of permissions (the term used in Second Life for controls regarding copying, modifying, transfering); as the creator or owner of an object in Second Life, one can only apply permission restrictions in such a way that affects the next immediate owner and all subsequent owners (although subsequent owners may in some cases impose further restrictions which get passed downstream, so to speak). There is no mechanism whereby one may specify certain permissions for the next owner, and different permissions for the owner after that, as the article currently states. This is a oft-wished-for feature, and it may be something which is planned for the future, but it is decidedly absent at this time.

Yes I'm new here and posting anonymously, and as such I do not feel comfortable making any sweeping edits to the article; I hope requesting a citation and noting my reasons here is appropriate, and that an experienced editor will see fit to correct the error in such a way as to enhance the article and keep it in line with Wikipedia standards. 131.191.10.220 20:46, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * If the relevant sentence or so is contested and not attributed it should simply be removed, which I'll now do. Metamagician3000 00:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I removed the following but will place it here as a resource in case it turns out to be correct and can be verified: In addition, these rights can be set for future owners. That is, an item that is copyable and transferable might become non-transferable once it has been transferred. For example, A may create some item and give it to B. B can give to as many Cs as he wishes, but the Cs will not be able to give it to any Ds. Metamagician3000 01:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

First Life
I just created the page redirect First Life to SL#Parody. An actual article devoted to it would be nice, but I doubt it would be noteworthy enough to survive a RFD. samwaltz 12:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * remark removed by user Me053076 01:25, 25 March 2007 (UTC)*

Apparently I jumped the gun, I apoligize for my commentary. I shall endevour to make sure that I am properly informed before making any other comments/opinions.

I had talked to other residents that were present at the time it happened, it was a 'humper' AO (Animation Overrride) that was being passed around.

As for hysterics, in retrospect it is a valid assesment of my opinions/complaints. Again, I do apoligize.

Me053076 01:25, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Reinstated
I reinstated this: One study extrapolates 25 million total accounts, with 150,000 Residents simultaneously online, by March 2008. Not sure why it was deleted. Did somoeone read it as 2007, perhaps? Metamagician3000 12:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Media stories
I've just updated this User:Metamagician3000/SL archive with a new story in The Age. Metamagician3000 11:00, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

What is this?
This doesn't seem like a game.. what is it? Would you classify it as? Fr0 05:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Virtual World software.
 * Signpostmarv 22:12, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Something Awful
I recon you guys should add a note of some sort that implicates somethingawful.com's 'Second Life Safari.' Considering you've already added a parody site, and its rather popular in its own back handed way. - Sye

Second Life Blogs
Last time I checked, the previous time a list of SL-related blogs was compiled in this article, the entire thing was nuked to prevent it from being misused.

Signpostmarv 12:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)