Talk:Secret of Mana/Archive 1

Untitled
Is there any reason why the main character looks exactly like chrono from chrono trigger? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.156.65.123 (talk) 19:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Graphics
However, the smaller size of the text and the lack of contrast between the white text and the moving light green background can make the information hard to read - likewise the lack of clear distinction between the characters and the background (as compared with The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past) can be troublesome for some players.

Did anyone honestly have trouble reading the text or seeing the characters? Plus, the part about the text seems to be referring specifically to the opening menu, but it's been written to sound as though it is referring to the entire game.LeeWilson 05:54, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I never had any troubles reading it or seeing the characters. Maybe small tvs might have that problem. Kirbyroth (talk) 17:53, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

TV-Series?
Can anyone tell me anything about that?
 * I never heard of a TV show of SoM. Do you have any info about it? ImmortalDragon 00:46, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Uhm, I was asking about it. The "Legacy" sections mentions something about a television series...
 * Outside of Wikipedia would be preferred for information. I'm curious, too. -LichYoshi 07:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I read articles on IGN referring to Squaresoft releasing a whole line of Mana related products, I'll put a link in the reference section.Judgesurreal777 18:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * My bad, actually it would be movies, not television, please see link Judgesurreal777 18:23, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Screenshots
I can understand the want of removing the screenshots section, and that's okay; however, would screenshots of discussed points, such as the ring menu system and/or Flammie flying, be more appropriate, perhaps? I think it would be good to show what the game itself looks like, as a picture can speak a thousand words about graphics. -LichYoshi 09:57, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I think that would be more than suitable. That is the sort of screenshot that truly improves the article. And those are also relevant enough to be placed sidealong the main article's text, also. Cheers. --Sn0wflake 13:53, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Elimination of Trivia
Should we even have a Trivia section? It seems like most of those comments can either go in the Overview heading or a subheading (like Graphics) of the Gameplay heading. ~ Hibana 21:55, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * The Trivia heading is basically a way of saying: "this is useless, but let's keep it... for now". The only relevant information there are trivias 1 and 3. The rest can be easily discarded. --Sn0wflake 01:03, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I just feel like it'll get way too long after a while. And to have an article composed of "useless" trivia rather than "less important yet interesting" information seems less encyclopedic to me. ~ Hibana 02:06, July 28, 2005 (UTC)
 * I think it has pretty much reached its limit already, and won't expand further. There is only so much useless information one can add. Nevertheless, if you agree with it, let's kill the section and incorporate the info about the patch into the lead section and call it a day. --Sn0wflake 02:46, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I've incorporated part of the info in the section into the main body of the article - the rest could form the basis of a graphics section. -LichYoshi 15:36, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Flammie - Mana Beast
Does anyone know if Flammie was the Mana Beast? Or what?
 * Flammie and the Mana Beast, despite their physical similarities, are not the same. As a matter of fact, somewhere in the game (not sure where, but it is documented in this very article) it states that Flammie and the Mana Beast are the last of their species.  Nall 04:31, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I can't remember the exact quote, but the girl says something along the lines of "The Mana Beast is A Flammie!?" prior to the battle, which clearly states that it isn't Flammie. 130.232.131.47 22:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, but that could very well be an example of a poor translation-- Japanese has no word for "a", so "Flammie" and "a Flammie" would be the same in Japanese. I'm just spitballing, here, though, because I've never read the Japanese script. Modus Ponens (talk) 02:11, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Mana Goddess?
I've never played the japanese verison (nor would I begin to understand it) but the article says that SoM is the first game to establish the Goddess as the primary diety. In the US version, there is no Mana Goddess, just vague references to "gods."

I also noticed that the enemies said to be established by Secret of Mana were actually established back in Final Fantasy Adventure, such as the rabites and mushbooms. Also, moogles DID appear in later games. Characters could be transformed into one in SD3, as well as Sword of Mana. - ClaudeLv250

Title Theme Title
I know I've got the Kanji right for it as I have the book of Seiken Densetsu piano arrangements right next to me with it in there, and I've checked the Kanji against my copy of Nelson's character dictionary, but I'm unsure if I have the right Rōmaji translation or if that's the best English translation. Could someone make sure both of them are right, please? -LichYoshi 15:35, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Looks fine to me, although "Fear of the Angels", while obviously the exact same thing, is the translation I've seen most often. 130.232.131.47 22:56, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * That's the question though. Are the angels fearing or to be feared? -LichYoshi 05:24, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I should say that it is the angels who are afraid, but the Japanese name seems to have the same ambiguity to it. Someone who knows Japanese better might know better, though. 130.232.131.47 14:54, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Advertisement
I found this advertisement on gameads.gamepressure.com, and the version on the site is in German. I remember seeing an English version of this ad when I was kid in 1993, but without any actual footage of the game, just the animation of Randi finding the Mana Sword. Anyway, the art style is a bit cartoony to be considered anime, at least that's how I see it. I was wondering if anyone knew if it or a similar commercial aired in Japan before or after this one. ~ Hibana 02:15, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Popoie's Gender
My version:
 * Popoie's gender remains undetermined due to references in the game's script of "he" and "it."

Anon IP's version:
 * Popoie's gender is male, though he looks female. It is explained by the one of the dwarves early on that his people's genders look the opposite of human standards. He is often referred to as "it" because his gender is confusing to some.

I don't recall any dwarf saying anything about gender, but if I can be shown (i.e. screenshot) the conversation in the original English SoM (not the Enhanced ROM version) then I am willing to change my mind. In the meantime, I feel my statement about Popoie's gender is neutral enough to avoid arguments, especially since the game is gender confused and Secret of Mana Theater has made Autumn female. Perhaps, though, if anyone has access to the Japanese Seiken Densetsu 2 and can read it (and provides screenshots so it can be verified), the argument will be sorted out once and for all. -LichYoshi 00:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I've played the game many times and I do remember the converstation with the Gnome, not dwarf. He did not say anything about his gender but he thought Popoie was married to Purim. If you search for the word "married" on the Gamefaq's SOM Script you'll find this conversation.

''Gnome: Oh dear! Anyway, call me anytime, anywhere. Now, close your eyes...Both you and your wife may summon me.''

''Princess: What?! ME married to...THAT?!''

Sprite: I like your style, Gnome!

ImmortalDragon 00:20, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Do you have to be male and female to be necessarily married? :) -LichYoshi 14:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

No, but I'm sure that if the user who changed it from genderless to male was taking it from this part of the script, they were going by 1993's social norms. Pff. ~ Hibana 22:11, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I would seriously doubt that Nintendo would allow a homosexual reference into the game. Nonetheless, the Sprite was sarcastically happy about it, I am pretty sure he is a male. ImmortalDragon 03:45, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, even though I don't really trust the translation of this game. I would have to play the original to see whether it sheds any light to the matter. 130.232.131.47 22:58, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * As much as I would like Sprite's gender to be female (simply due to his appearance), Sprite is indeed male. The one "He" reference and marriage reference should be enough to validate that Sprite is male. Nintendo, especially during this time frame (early 90's) had a strict policy on keeping games as family friendly as possible (just look at the Mortal Kombat dilemma), so I cannot even begin to fathom Nintendo giving the thumbs up to a homosexual reference in one of their more "family friendly" games. --Reverend r fish 20:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, in Germany the sprite was female. :) 84.182.122.145 14:37, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Eh, I always interpreted the marriage comment as being regarded between Purim and Randi, and Popoie was saying he liked his style for making fun of the two of them or just because he was so blunt, or something.. it's awfully ambiguous... I mean, gender aside, it'd also be an inter-species relationship. I don't think that's much proof. --User:Dazuro

It's not because the gnome says "both you and you wife may summon me" which is both mages. Also the line is obviously meant as a joke because Randi is called the servant of Poipoi and Purim the wife. It's not some groundbreaking homosexual reference.--User:CuntLips

Cleanup
Firstly, I am proposing a cleanup-expand of the graphics section - any more significant information for it would be useful. Secondly (and more importantly), is the Connections section appropriate to be on this page, or would it be better integrated with the Overview section in the Seiken Densetsu article? - Consider this first part done, and the second will follow shortly. Who knows, maybe we could aim for featured article status? -LichYoshi 13:52, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Integration complete. -LichYoshi 07:06, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

If theres anything I can help out with, let me know. ImmortalDragon 04:44, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

New Link
Site that has a lot of information on Secret of Mana: http://www.manaheavenly.net Perhaps it could be added to the links section?

Oh come on...
No mention of the parody, Secret of Mana Theater, which is probably the most prominent website related to the game? --141.152.68.149 03:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * There's an article on it: Secret of Mana Theater. Perhaps a fandom mention is in order within the Reception heading. ~ Hibana 03:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

POV
This game is great on its own merits. However, this paragraph in the lead (and perhaps others) appears to consist of a subjective, unsourced description of the subject of the article, which would not comply with WP:NPOV. -- MarkBuckles 04:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * "very easy and approachable style of gameplay. In addition, with its brightly coloured graphics, endearing characters, rich and expansive world, and a renowned soundtrack by Hiroki Kikuta, the game is widely regarded as a classic and is highly collectible, having set a standard for the rest of the series' games to follow."


 * Oh dear, I think that's my fault. I was transcribing old text in the article, and I think my admiration outspoke my reason. I was also speaking from first-hand experience for the collectibility, since I've seen prices upwards of A$50 on eBay.com.au  for the cart alone. But, I don't think that's a credible source for collectibility. I can't really see through my haze of admiration to fix the contentious POV text above, so I would love it if someone else could and would sort it out. I believe it would be good to maintain some sort of summary of the game's merits and its popularity, but without the bias. I would like to fix it myself, but I can't see a way out, and that "this article may be biased" banner is kinda getting old. -LichYoshi 00:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I mean I pretty much agree with the description, but it's still subjective. I can't see an easy way to rewrite it. It seems to me that the section in question either needs to be cut, or all those points need to be back up by some sources. I agree that the tag is getting old. MarkBuckles (talk) 06:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Blue Face in Water.
There is a blue face in the ocean water between the Ice continent and underwater continent in the USA version. The player has to use Flammie to find the samll blue face. I was told it was some sort of secret to get better weapons. Any informaton about the blue face?


 * Actually, it's south of the underwater continent, and directly east of the ice palace. As far as I know, you can't get anything from it. -- Buuneko 13:00, 20 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Hidden images of faces are displayed in quite a few Squaresoft games, I think that's about the only purpose behind it.


 * Yes, also in FF4 ( or FF2 in US) on the Moon. Its a running gag, probably related to the mars face which 2006 turn out wrong.--Biontenagent2008 12:01, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There's also a "stone" face. Use vSNES and a savestate from the Mode 7 scene to see it in the memory viewer. 84.182.122.145 14:41, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Handheld
Is there any handheld made game for this? That is like the first game except put into a handheld? Like Gameboy advance of DS?


 * There's no ports of this game at all. The strange face has also appeared in FFV & FFVII.

ghost sprite
is the apparition at the end of the staff roll really a ghost? i mean, can it not be indicative of the sprites beginning to return to the world, the sword being replaced? Ryu Bahamut |  Talk  00:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Original Soundtrack
A page has been created for the soundtrack. I put a link to it in the "musical score" section. Oops, forgot to sign. Happypal 07:14, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the plot
Holy smoke. Do we honestly need a novel-length blow-by-blow discourse on the game's plot? I thought what was written was fine and gave the plot's important points without spoiling it too much. I mean, a lot of it is valid, but I'm sure it can be summarised. Expect to see trimming taking place shortly. -LichYoshi 13:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I have placed a "too long" template at the top of the page. I hope this is not too bold. Ripberger 01:08, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Not at all. :) -LichYoshi 01:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The plot was my primary concern and given that it has come down in size, I'm fine with the very long template being removed. I probably should've put it in the Plot section initially, but, alas, I did not do that :( . Ripberger 00:41, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I felt that the character section needed trimming too, so, all the better for it being up the top of the page. :) -LichYoshi 13:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh come on... Revisited
No mention of the parody, Secret of Mana Theater, which is probably the most prominent website related to the game? --141.152.68.149 03:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * There's an article on it: Secret of Mana Theater. Perhaps a fandom mention is in order within the Reception heading. ~ Hibana 03:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That article has since been deleted. I would appreciate help reinstating it. :)MegaLegoChai 12:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Plot, again...
I can understand the concern that the plot section, of its own accord, may be considered too long, but I am unsure that it is possible to do any more than cosmetic trimming without losing important plot points. However, I am free to hear other opinions on what is considered important and not important in that section. -LichYoshi 15:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Remove all the "obtain weapon/orb here and there". That s not important to the plot. You dont have to explain gameplay on the PLOT. Boss listing is not as important. Someone who does not know about the history of the game cant bother to memorize all kinds of names of every boss. I suggest dividing the plot into: A-The Mysterious Sword. This will introduce the plot and show how the world became unbalanced by the hero pulling the sword up to his banishment from Potos. B-The Water Shrine. This will go on after the hero arrives to the shrine and the Sage explains what he must do to correct what he has done. C-New companions. This will explain how he met with the girl and sprite. (Refrain from explaining any character here. We'll do that on the characters' section. D-From here on Divide the plot by the events happening after each Seed. For Example Obtaining Water Seed. With subsections to any major events, such as getting Flammie's egg E-From here on, explain what happens after the events after the heroes obtain all the seeds and they find out about what happened. F-Journey to revive the mana sword. Explain that the mist in that land vanished and now you can enter there to try to revive the sword. You can go up to the hero learning about the mana tree and the mana warriors. G-The Mana Weapon. This will conclude the game.

Don't explain every single detail. Write about EVENTS. Keep gameplay apart. The plot doesnt include any optional events such as the moogle belt. You may explain what minor characters bring to the plot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.45.153.62 (talk) 01:09, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Userbox
FYI:

-Catneven 14:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey, nice box :) Kariteh 11:03, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Try to keep spoilers out of the storyline. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.45.153.62 (talk) 20:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

OST merge
The OST is quite stubby as a standalone article, but would make a great addition to this article. See Vagrant Story for how it could be integrated smoothly. Kariteh 11:02, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Support = Would make a better whole. Judgesurreal777 14:43, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

diskdrive...40% missing
where in the source it says that 40% are missing??

89.12.205.173 18:48, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The source that was provided was very unreliable for being a user submitted Trivia site and blatantly fails WP:Source.  Sawblade05  (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 20:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Controller unplugging
Because of this auto-detection mechanism of the controllers, additional players could join or leave the game simply by plugging or unplugging their controller. Removal of the controller simply reverted that character back to AI control. As far as I remember, all you had to do was press select to activate/de-activate a caracter. You could even play as player 2 without player 1, with both controllers in.

I think this area needs fixing.happypal (Talk | contribs) 15:00, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

You have to press 'Start' on either controller 2 or 3 to join in as the other characters. Pressing select whilst playing (whether alone, or with someone as player 2) allows either 1 player, or 2, to swap between characters. This is useful when playing alone as you can have a second character with a weapon which is used to overcome obstacles (whipping over gaps, using the posts. Or the axe, to break certain rocks and spikes etc), rather than changing the weapon on the main character to do the same thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.206.254 (talk) 17:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of Boss section --- why?
Anyone who plays the game or goes to a website describing the game can see that the named bosses exist and the origin of their names is clear from the names themselves: I can see no room for doubt as to the origins of names like "Buffy the Vampire". So why is this being called original research when it is no different than anything that exists in the rest of the article? In fact, I would say that much of the rest of the article should be called OR, since it can only be verified by playing the game itself, but I think that when it comes to video game articles there's really no way around that problem. Haplolology Talk/Contributions 18:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:OCE. The name Buffy is a normal name, also supported from behindthename.com and ranked 730 during the 70s.  If you cannot find a citation, drop it, and improve the rest of the article so it is NOT full of original research. MythSearchertalk 18:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It would be an awful big coincidence for "Buffy the Vampire" to appear right after "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" solely by coincidence, I think. And it says right on Wikipedia's WP:OR page that "obvious deductions" that are an aid to the understanding of material are not Original Research.  We could argue forever over whether this particular one is obvious or not, but I can see your mind is made up and this is not that imnportant to me so I'll stop pushing that point, for now.  People can make their own conclusions about the origins of the names just by looking at a list of the bosses in the game.  Haplolology Talk/Contributions 19:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It is not an obvious deduction, 1+1=2 in decimal is obvious, looking at a western film with no evidence of a Japanese release and no evidence of the producer ever watched it is not an obvious deduction. All the hey this looks like that type of comment is not encyclopedic and are all speculation.  See WP:NOTOR, Obvious deductions are simple calculations and logical deductions, not look a likes or similar naming.  Unless a source could be used to justify it, it is WP:OR.  For these kind of section, a primary source would be sufficient.  Also, have you played the Japanese version of the game?  I do not recall any of the naming given in that section and I have never played the English version. Here is a list of bosses: Japanese page and I can only see Vampire, Vampire Lord and Dark Lich.  There is no Buffy, Kilroy, Aegagropilon or Jabberwocky.  MythSearchertalk 19:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You've undermined your own argument. The Western culture references arent in the Japanese version because they were added in by the American translators.  Haplolology Talk/Contributions 20:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The deleted section did not reflect this as a translation version only feature and it would be even harder to find sources since it is the creation of a translator, not the producer. MythSearchertalk 20:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The Boss section is irrelevant to someone who hasnt played this game. Hide it if you feel it s important or delete it if you dont. The boss section clogs the page with unnecessary names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.45.86.16 (talk) 19:54, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be fine to have a bosses section in the article, but not in its current form. Poor writing aside, I have a number of issues with its current incarnation: I am itching to get this section sorted out so it no longer blemishes the article. -LichYoshi (talk) 07:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The list of bosses is incredibly unencyclopædic, and can be construed to be akin to a game guide. Wikipedia is not Gamefaqs.com.
 * People cannot "make their own conclusions about the origins of the names just by looking at a list of the bosses in the game". If articles are to be written to as wide an audience as possible, then we have to assume that the average reader has neither played the game nor seen or heard the movies and songs etc. which the bosses' names quite possibly refer to. There is no self-evidence in just a list of names; the common person is not going to automatically know what Kilroy looks like and thus get any reference to Kilroy Was Here, or what Aegagropilon looks like and does and what aegagropilae are. This article is not a celebration for us fans of the game. Rather, it is meant to inform those people who have no idea what Secret of Mana is and it always should be written and edited with that in mind.
 * That said, I agree with Myth in that it would be Original Research to make those correlations. Perhaps the boss section could say that "pop culture references are apparent in the boss names", but not go into any great detail. If that is too WP:OR, however, then let's call the whole thing off.

Popoi or Popoie?
What's the proper romanization of the Sprite's name, if there is one? I recall it as "Popoie" almost everywhere else I've seen the name. Currently it's spelled "Popoi" in the article, but I didn't want to edit it without an official source to back me up. (But if it's going for a literal romanization, shouldn't Purim be "Purimu" too?) 209.66.65.54 (talk) 17:07, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I was wondering the same thing awhile ago. I checked the kana and it would seem that it should be Popoi.  My guess is that Popoie was introduced by the translators in an attempt to get English speakers to pronounce it with two vowels instead of an oy dipthong. Soap Talk/Contributions 19:07, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Popoie is officially androgynous in Japan
I'm sorry, but I don't believe in using other language wikipedias can be used as a source. If ja.wikipedia says that Popoie is officially androgynous, then they too, should have a reference to prove this, which we too, should refer to. If they do not have one, then our own reference is worth nothing. I'm not saying we need a non-ja source, I'm just saying it needs to be verifiable, and right now, it is not. It's not because they are Japanese that they know better than we do. happypal (Talk | contribs) 12:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That, or is he really "Officially" androgynous, or just regarded as such by general consensus? happypal (Talk | contribs) 12:09, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I quite agree that ja does not equal correct, and, no, they do not have a reference (for anything in their page, as with a lot of game- and anime-related pages on both en and ja), but I think it's credible enough to be worth including for lack of other information. I had been wondering about his gender myself. And, yes, they say "officially" (clearly but without much further explanation; sorry). By the way, (you might already know this, but) Japanese does not use pronouns as much as English, and so it would be easier to avoid saying "he," "she," or "it." Skyworm (talk) 23:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, just wanted it to be clear. And yeah, they have a way of never saying he she, and have an odd taste for androgynous characters...Saint Seiya, anyone?happypal (Talk | contribs) 02:27, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I reworked it. Any better? --Eruhildo (talk) 03:40, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Fanha
Since Fanha's gender is never stated in the game, does anyone have a source saying that s/he is a female? Josh (talk) 03:32, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Purim...a princess?
I was reading the article and it explicitly states that Purim is a princess of Pandora. As many times as I've played the game, I don't ever remember that being stated? Anyone got a source/screenshot?--Claude (talk) 08:48, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought she was just a young woman of noble birth. Modus Ponens (talk) 03:41, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * She does address the king as "father". <FONT COLOR="#800000"><B>Soap</B></FONT> Talk/Contributions 23:33, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * She never does that.--Atlan (talk) 12:03, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Purim's father is in the room through the door that's before the throne room doors as you walk through the castle. If she makes any reference to her father, it's when, if I remember correctly, that he is in the throne room as well. I'd say she's just a nobleman's daughter. -LichYoshi (talk) 15:02, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Screenshot
This article really needs a screenshot of the main gameplay. There's way too much focus on out-of-game images in this article. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:39, 29 November 2008 (UTC)