Talk:Sega Genesis/Archive 2

Discussion about the games
A good start, although some changes should be made. The Sonic one has some pov, using "stunningly" dosn't add anything to the article other then to glorify the MD. Also added a note about Super FX aswell as adding to the end of Pahantasy Star, it might be the case, but would need a citation to even be considered being left inn. Havok (T/C/c) 13:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, the word "stunningly" does sound POV, but it is also something we should express in the article. Part of the reason Sonic was so important was because, at the time, people were shocked to see a video game where the sprites and background tiles moved so quickly. I'm sure we can dig up a reputable reference for this. Ben 13:39, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, the whole point of sonic the hedgehog being so quick was to show off the power that the mega-drive had. gord 07:03, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I would Suggest that Sonic & Knuckles be added to this section because of its lock on feature which is something largly unique to the cartridge based format. gord 07:03, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Requested move for Sega CD
I just want to inform you that I've requested a move for Sega CD (back again) to Sega Mega-CD/Sega CD. Since the CD Drive (may it be a Mega-CD, may it be a Sega CD) is just an extension for the Mega Drive/Genesis I'd like to follow it the naming convention used for its "mother console". After last years discussion (I wasn't a registered user in en.WP back than but I've followed it) I'd like to prevent a move-war for the Sega (Mega-)CD and would be happy about a consensus. If you want to support or oppose my request, then please leave your oppinon at Talk:Sega_CD. --32X 13:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Comparison with Super Nintendo
This part seems very biased for the SNES hardware. It explains carefully how the sound and graphics are worse in Mega Drive games and only says it has better "speed". Do a faster processor only give better "speed"? The Mega Drive has a higher standard resolution than the SNES and could use more background layers. The FM synthesizer could do sounds and music the SNES' soundchip couldn't do. Not all voices sounded "muffled and scratchy", just listen to Pulseman.

I think this page should be redone completely and include both ups and downs for both consoles, with examples in released games. Zebbe 21:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

It should be noted that several Genesis games put many sprites onscreen without slowdown. Case in point being Gunstar Heroes. SNES had difficulty handling many sprites without slowdown due to the slower CPU. Also, the Genesis simpler architecture made development easier thn the SNES.

number of sold units (edit war)
Here we go:

(diff) IP 69.150.41.38 changed it from 35 to 50.75 million units

(diff) IP 208.39.246.82 changed it from 50.75 to 35 million units

(diff) User Schuminweb changed it from 35 to 50.75 million units

(diff) IP 67.190.40.19 changed it from 50.75 to 35.75 million units

(diff) IP 67.190.40.19 changed it from 35.75 to 50.75 million units (own change reverted)

(diff) User 32X (that's me) changed it from 50.75 to 35 million units

br:Sega Mega Drive: "35 milion"

de:Sega Mega Drive: "35 Millionen"

es:Sega Mega Drive: "35 millones"

fr:Megadrive: "35,0 millions d'unités"

ru:Sega Mega Drive: "35 миллионов" (миллионов = millionov)

sv:Sega Mega Drive: "23 miljoner" (maybe without North American sales since only Jap and Eur release dates are mentioned)

Has anyone a reliable source at all? --32X 22:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Some more information: IP IP 69.150.41.38 changed the number of sold units in Sega Game Gear, Sega Mega Drive/Sega Genesis, Sega Saturn and Sega Dreamcast (rev without an edit war). Changes were made in Console wars too:, ,.


 * IP 67.190.40.19 did Changes on the first three mentioned articles. --32X 01:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * IP 70.240.4.25 ... I guess, I should stopp here since it becomes more like troll hunting than asking for factual information. --32X 01:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

General
Just a general message: The console's name is "Mega Drive". Not "Megadrive", not "MegaDrive", just "Mega Drive". The same goes for the European 32x: It's a Sega "Mega Drive 32X", not "Mega 32X". I know that because I own several consoles and it's printed on all of them that way. Thank you for your patience.

Jump to:.

There is a discussion about Genesis v Megadrive at User_talk:WhisperToMe. -Nommo 00:16, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The following is taken from that page: Hi. I'm just curious as to why you decide to change all the Sonic the Hedgehog and Genesis pages to Sega Megadrive? Since the English Wikipidia is, as far as I can tell, American based, and since the Genesis is more widely recognized, I would think you should leave it. =/ - The T

The T, the British call their Genesis the Megadrive too. I'm switching stuff to Japanese names to avoid international confusion with the English Wikipedia. Not everyone who speaks English is from the United States. Don't worry, for I have the U. S. names bolded in close proximity to the Japanese names - WhisperToMe


 * I think that moving the pages to their Japanese names is a bad idea. I fail to see how this will "avoid confusion" this will only create confusion. "Super Nintendo" returns 373,000 hits, while "Super Famicom" returns 32,700. M123 16:44, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)

WhisperToMe is chaning the names from their Americanised names to international names. This is the English wikipeida, not the American wikipedia, so I think he's doing the right thing. CGS 17:00, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC).


 * Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Famicom/Megadrive/PC Engine names all Japan-only? If so, then it seems to me that the English Wikipedia should use the English name that the consoles were marketed under (NES/Genesis/Turbografx etc.) -- Wapcaplet 18:05, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Wapcaplet, the Megadrive was marketed under its original name in the United Kingdom and Europe. Add to the fact that several in Hong Kong, India, and other countries speak and read English. I'm going with the Japanese names to avoid confusion with people from those countries. Those in the US can identify the Megadrive as the Genesis because "Sega Genesis" is bolded just like "Sega Megadrive" is, and et al. -- WhisperToMe


 * Fair enough :-) -- Wapcaplet 18:14, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * I really have to disagree with moving Mega Man to RockMan. What is gained by moving the article to this new location? It can easily be mentioned that Rock Man is the Japanese name for Mega Man; I think it will confuse people more for the article to be at this name. (And is it "Rock Man" or "RockMan"?) It also seems especially strange to say that Rock Man appeared in a cartoon series (Captain N.) in the U.S. when he was called "Mega Man" in that series and every one after it. -- Wapcaplet 19:41, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning that Wapcaplet. Although the article is in its new location. Instances of the Megaman character being in media produced in the USA (Captain N and the US cartoon series), he will be called Megaman in those instances. When I get around to making an article about the Megaman games for game gear and the computer original games, since those were US Productions, I will call him Mega Man in those articles also. -- WhisperToMe


 * Okay, that makes sense. I have no serious objection to the page being named Rockman, but the Naming conventions page states "article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity", which to me indicates "Mega Man" (or "Megaman") is a better choice for the article title. -- Wapcaplet 23:59, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)

STOP moving all videogame pages from where they've been to new pages. First of all, they're already established there. Second you move pages away from what Google likes (see Google Test popular usage), see the discussion on at Village_pump for some statistics. Third in general wikipedia settles disputes about American/British naming by leaving an entry as it is created. Fourth, for example simply add something like this "Sega Genesis or Sega Mega Drive (as it is known outside of North America) ..." to the Sega Genesis article would suffice. Also be aware that people in North America (US/Canada etc) are completely unaware of what a "Famicom" or a "Mega Drive" is. M123 05:07, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

1. I have the US names next to the Asian ones so it work work both ways anyways. 2. This is the ENGLISH wikipedia, not the AMERICAN wikipedia. Especially in the case of the Brits, whom speak English. 3. A lot of Americans know about alternate names. I've seen websites based in the USA which USE the Japanese names. 4. Google gets hits on the redirect pages as well.

However, I will not move Resident Evil as nobody knows its Japanese name in English speaking countries.

Also, M123, as you have failed to notice, Famicom and NES have separate articles due to being totally separate consoles with the same games. WhisperToMe


 * The issue is not if you also list the US name the issue is the THE ARTICLES WERE ALREADY THERE stop moving them. In English the more common names are the North American names as indicate by Google. What are you talking about &quot;Google gets hits on redirect pages&quot; it doesn't make any sense. Here are some statics from Google searching the web:

- all the above statistics are for websites in English. M123 23:23, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)
 * Super Nintendo&quot; returns 373,000 hits, while &quot;Super Famicom&quot; returns 32,700
 * 196,000 for &quot;Sega Genesis&quot; and 47,200 for &quot;Sega Megadrive&quot;
 * and 109,000 '&quot;Mega Man&quot; Nintendo' vs. 1,660 '&quot;RockMan&quot; Famicom'

- Have you added the hits from "Megadrive" to the total for "Sega Megadrive"?

I have no qualms about moving articles to more commonly used names. Articles are moved all the time -- WhisperToMe


 * The articles were already at their more popular names. You moved them away from there. I didn't count just "Megadrive" because if I searched for "Genesis" and "Megadrive", Genesis would get false hits from the bible book. M123 23:57, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * M123: But there's only one Megadrive and, as you notice, at least two Genesises. So obviously people will disambiguate their use of Genesis but not their use of Megadrive. Seems to me, if it's called Megadrive in Europe and Australasia, and Genesis in just the US, we should put the article under Megadrive. I also got the impression that it was a far more popular platform in the former markets than the latter, but I don't know. What did Canada call it? And perhaps this discussion should be at Talk:Sega_Genesis? -Nommo


 * There is only 1 "Sega Genesis" and only 1 "Sega Megadrive", there never was any ambuguity . M123 00:19, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * I was referring to Google. You said: "The articles were already at their more popular names. You moved them away from there. I didn't count just "Megadrive" because if I searched for "Genesis" and "Megadrive", Genesis would get false hits from the bible book." Sorry for any amiguity. ;) -Nommo


 * Also if you want ambiguity, the first link returned for "Megadrive" on Google is for http://www.megadrive.com/ which has nothing to do with the Sega Genesis/Megadrive. M123 00:37, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * Well, the Sega Genesis was less popular in the US and Canada than the Megadrive was in Europe, Japan, and Australia. - WhisperToMe


 * Then why is it 3 to 1 more popular under the North American names on Google? Also do you have any figures to back up your "more popular" assertion, the Sega Genesis was a hugely popular video game system in the US. M123 00:26, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * Just look at the statistics, M123. http://www.epinions.com/content_1936498820 The Megadrive as a whole OUTSOLD the SNES in Europe, but vice versa in North America. If you want a link, I'll give one to you. Also, Its hard to truly tell the truth about Megadrive vs. Genesis, because of the complexity of simply typing in "Genesis". Try to make this your science fair project if you have one, M123. WhisperToMe


 * I know it's hardly scientific, but on Google "Sega Genesis" polls 186,000, while "megadrive" tallies 240,000. As I said before, the former is far more likely to be qualified than the latter. Taking that anomaly into account, I'd say that web-wise they were pretty much even. -Nommo


 * A fairer comparison might be 'Sega+Genesis' 387,000 vs. 'Sega+Megadrive' 108,000. Note that Megadrive is the name of entirely different technology product in the US. M123 00:39, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * That's true, but the other nine are the console. By contrast, it looks like none of the first ten "Genesis" sites have anything to do with the console. I think for a rough estimate, counting "Megadrive" seems fair enough... -Nommo


 * That's fine because the article was originally at "Sega Genesis" before Whisper moved it, and "Sega Genesis" gets 196,000 hits while "Sega Megadrive" gets only 47,200 M123 00:46, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * I think you'll find I was disagreeing with you. :) If we're going on Google, counting "Megadrive" results seems fine from where I'm looking. And that, like I say, puts the two about equal web-stats wise.-Nommo


 * I think that 196,000 is a larger number than 47,200, I can't see how you disagree with this. It is not statistically equal, one number is 4 times larger! The bottom line is Whisper never should have moved the page from "Sega Genesis" in the first place. M123 00:53, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * I agree he shouldn't've moved it without a debate on the matter. And I think this debate is at the wrong place. That aside, a debate now exists, so lets have it. Here if needs be. Now. I repeat:

1) I see no major reason why the Google searches shouldn't be "Megadrive" and "Sega Genesis" owing to the other uses of the words Genesis and Megadrive. A person talking about their Megadrive is unlikely to qualify it. A Genesis user is MORE likely (though not univesally likely) to qualify it. 2) This gives us: Genesis: 186,000; Megadrive: 240,000. That's more to Megadrive. 3) Given that some people in an established context WILL say Genesis and not Sega Genesis, I add a few thousand to the Genesis camp, and estimate that in Googleville the two are pretty much equal. 4) How that effects the wiki placeholder is a different matter entirely. -Nommo

Perhaps we can continue the debate here? -Nommo

It should be moved back to where it was created in 2001 and where it has been unchallenged until Whisper single-handedly moved it. Also I'd like to mention that of the "Megadrive" search results I've perused, a good number of them are in French not English. If I click to search under English only (this is English-language wiki) I get 90,300 for "Megadrive" while I get 190,000 for "Sega Genesis". The bottom line is the page should be restored to where it's been, and "Sega Megadrive" made into a redirect. M123 01:08, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * Nice point about the language thing. I'll conceed you that. In the English speaking web, Genesis is more popular. Fair enough. I don't know about web-use demographics in the relevant countries, and I have no interest in getting bogged down with them. As far as I'm concerned, Genesis ties the international Google challenge and wins the Eng Lang one. So as far as usage is concerned it looks like a winner.


 * Whether Whisper wants to defend his move on other grounds remains to be seen. I expect there are other arguments to be had on the matter. It'd be nice to know his views, before any more movement takes place. We don't want a pointless edit war on our hands after all. -Nommo


 * The reason that I moved the article was because I felt that it was more appropriate to use the name "Sega Megadrive". Pretty much everywhere else in the world but the Americas called the Megadrive by its original name. Since this is the English wikipedia, and not the "American" wikipedia, and that this is the original name AND the name used in the major markets of Europe, Australia & New Zealand, and Japan (as opposed to USA & Canada, and Brazil). Also, the Megadrive outsold the SNES in Europe as opposed to the SNES outselling the Genesis North America.

The other reason I used the Japanese/European name was because English speakers also come from Hong Kong, India, South Africa, and plenty of places in the old world.

That, and many Americans know the Genesis as the Megadrive. Jared Matte (Green Gibbon)'s GHZ site predominately uses "Megadrive". - WhisperToTheWind


 * You haven't addressed to fact (see above) that "Sega Genesis" is a more widely used name than "Megadrive" in English. Also you never furnished any proof about the sale of video game units. In the US the sales for the Genesis and the SNES were almost equal. Also, I'd like to remind you that North Americans don't know what a Megadrive is. I didn't know what it was until I checked. Also English speakers from anywhere are included in the Google figure that shows 90,300 hits for "Megadrive" and 190,000 for "Sega Genesis" when searching only for English. M123 01:59, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * And you never should've moved all of those pages in the first place. You should've discussed it first. M123 02:01, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

--- This page explains the reason why the Megadrive outsold the SNES in the UK http://www.retrogames.co.uk/rant/html/2000p1.html "Of course, in the early nineties the bubble burst. Commodore’s battle for 16-bit supremacy pushed Atari to the brink. Then Commodore went under in suspicious circumstances. We were stranded, left with what scraps Japanese companies (bittered by years of being unable to crack the UK/Euro markets) would throw to us. Make no mistake, the Megadrive only succeeded in the UK because there was no real competition left." - WhisperToTheWind


 * I never disputed that the Genesis/Megadrive outsold the SNES in the UK. The issue is the Genesis/Megadrive was almost as successfull as the SNES in North America. Since North America has a higher population than the UK, the number of Genesis/Megadrive systems might actually have been higher in North America than the UK. Even if it wasn't the page should still go back to where it's been undisputed since 2001 since "Sega Genesis" is a more popular name in English than "Megadrive" (see above). You never should've moved the page without a discussion. M123 02:23, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

--- There is also Ireland, Hong Kong, Australia, New Zealand and India. Those 3 countries have sizeable English speaking populations and use the Megadrive name. Of course, the Genesis also has the Canadians. - WhisperToTheWind


 * They would also be represented by the English-language Google searchs above where there were 90,300 hits for "Megadrive" and 190,000 for "Sega Genesis". M123 02:33, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Another thing that perplexes me is how "Sega Genesis" could get more hits than plain "Genesis", since "Genesis" is part of "Sega Genesis". WhisperToTheWind


 * "Genesis" gets over 4 million hits, but most of those are probably for the bible book or the band. M123 02:39, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

When I searched for "Sega Genesis" (with the quotes so all searches had to have it in the EXACT order), Google said...
 * "Genesis" gets over 4 million hits, but most of those are probably for the bible book or the band. M123 02:39, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

When I searched for "Sega Genesis" (with the quotes so all searches had to have it in the EXACT order), Google said... Approximately 194,000 Results (186,000 English Only).

When I searched for the Megadrive: Approximately 237,000 Results (88,200 English Only).

When I searched for Sega Genesis (without the quotes, so It can be in any order) Approximately 365,000 Results (345,000 English Only).

When I searched for "Mega Drive" (with the quotes so all searches had to have it in the EXACT order) Approximately 86,500 Results (36,000 English Only).

Adding "Mega Drive" and "Megadrive"'s approximate search results gave the number as 323,500 results (124,200 English Only). That would be 41,500 results less than "Sega Genesis" (and 61,800 less in English Only.)

However, searching Mega Drive without the "'s yielded 561,000 results (507,000 on English only). All of the first several pages i've seen related to video games, but I could be wrong... WhisperToTheWind

You didn't decide to search only in English:
 * "Sega Genesis" =  190,000
 * "Megadrive" = 88,100
 * "Mega Drive" = 36,100

So in summary 124,200 for Megadrive variants and 190,000 for "Sega Genesis" (not even counting the many sites that call it simply Genesis). If you search for Mega Drive with out "s you get results for hard drive disk drive mega man etc... M123 02:59, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Now that it is clear that in English "Sega Genesis" is more popular will you let me restore it to it's original location. M123 03:05, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

You can move it now. I would monitor the situation if more English-speaking people from the old world come onto the internet in droves. But for now, you can move it back. WhisperToTheWind

Done. It doesn't matter what Jared Matte's opinion on this is. The device is more widely known as the Sega Genesis in the English speaking world. --mav 03:17, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * The English speaking world? You mean the U.S.A. These Google searches prove nothing. Why should the searches be limited to English pages? Do you think that only people whose first language in English are going to look at the English Wikipedia? No. The reasons is becauseyou know that the U.S.A. dominates the culture of the Internet through technological superiority and you know that limiting it to English pages will automatically bias it towards the U.S.A. The other reason why these searches prove nothing is that many non-American pages that talk about the megadrive need to pull in readers from the U.S.A. and so have to use the name Genesis somewhere on their page to explain to American readers what they are talking about. Also Google is biased towards the U.S.A. and the word Genesis because puts the console under the following heirarchy Games > Video Games > Console Platforms > Sega > Genesis, meaning that there are probably thousands of pages on the megadrive which haven't been indexed by Google. This product was called the Megadrive by Sega, but when they released it in the U.S.A. someone else had already copyrighted the name Megadrive so the had to find something else. It was called Genesis for the North American market only and the Megadrive in every other country in the world. There were more units sold outside of the U.S.A. than there were inside. That means that there are more boxes in the world with the word megadrive written on them than boxes with the word Genesis. But this seems to count for nothing on here. It's what it was known as in America that counts and that overrides all other factors, yet another case of American cultural imperialism (on a Japanese product no less).

I decided to make "Sega Genesis" and "Sega Megadrive" separate pages anyways. Each version will document the "consoles" in whichever market the console was named under.

All foriegn language links will point to the Sega Megadrive.

-WhisperToTheWind

I'm trying to convert this article into Queen's English, since this is the dialect that the Brits use. The Brits got the Megadrive but the Americans got the Sega Genesis. WhisperToMe 00:24, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

ROMS
Let's please not link to ROM sites. We could get in trouble for that. WhisperToMe 16:54, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Avoiding duplication of content
I can understand the earlier arguments about US bias, but the current solution is far too messy in my view. OK, it's worth acknowledging that the console is known by two different names, but it hardly warrants creating two separate Wikipedia articles with almost identical content.

Here's my proposal. If we're going to have separate articles at all, Sega Genesis should be a brief article on the history of the Mega Drive in North America (with details of the name change, marketing campaigns, commercial success, etc.), while Sega Mega Drive should be the main article with technical specifications and the overall history of the Mega Drive/Genesis project. It should be possible to create these from the existing articles without too much hair-tearing.

As far as I can see, the only other realistic options are: merge everything back into one article (preferably Sega Mega Drive, for reasons already stated, with Sega Genesis as a redirect), or create separate articles for "Sega Genesis in North America", "Sega Mega Drive in Europe", "Sega Mega Drive in Japan" etc. See my comments on Talk:Sega Genesis. AdorableRuffian 00:36, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

People will start arguing over which one to move into. Will it be Megadrive or Genesis? See, that's why it is best to keep them seperate. There is enough content on both sides so that they stay seperate. WhisperToMe 22:08, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * In my view, you've removed one problem but created another (i.e. the duplication, which is likely to lead to someone re-merging the articles again at some point, as well as making editing difficult). I just wanted to try and find a compromise.


 * From what I've seen of the discussion, nobody would object to Sega Mega Drive being the 'main' article, so long as the Sega Genesis article also had substantial content. All I'm suggesting is that for the non-specific info, like the tech specs and so on, Sega Genesis should simply link to the Mega Drive article, instead of having info duplicated from that article, as it does at present. That's painless, surely? AdorableRuffian 00:47, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree with this. The Sega Mega Drive article should be the main article dealing with non-specific details on the system, and the Sega Genesis should deal specifically with the sale/marketing and elarborate on the unique variations of the console (such as the Genesis 3 and Nomad) in North America. It's a hideous mess having pretty much the same info on two different articles! --Zilog Jones 10:37, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's probably the best way of doing it. Although as I said here, the whole thing is a really petty argument and we don't want to end up with a revert war! --Nick R 19:49, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * This is getting pretty silly though - at least 50% of the content is identical on both pages, and since this argument started the Famicom and NES pages have been successfully merged together, so this should be treated the same except with Mega Drive being the main page - NES was chosen as the main article for the NES/Famicom is the NES name was used everywhere outside Asia, including most English-speaking countries - with the MD/Genesis it was strictly only North America that used the "Genesis" title, and only because of trademark issues. --Zilog Jones 16:05, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)