Talk:Sega Saturn/Archive 2

Saturn sales
Despite Dreamcast's long GA review, no-one disputed the widely-cited but apparently inaccurate 10.6 million estimate for the console's worldwide sales, perhaps because the latest figure wasn't available at the time (although a closer look at Sega's financial records would have revealed some suggestive irregularities). On the other hand, there has been some mild contention over Saturn sales, mostly because of Jagged85's attempts to push the ludicrous "17 million", but also inasmuch as I added a lot more sales information prior to the Saturn's successful FAC. (In addition, Jakandsig briefly questioned how many Saturns were sold on day one). Thankfully, on careful reexamination, it appeared most of the figures in this article could withstand the closest scrutiny. 971,000 in Europe by July 1998 is in line with numerous other sources, such as those saying 400,000 Saturns were sold in the UK and that this constituted roughly 40% of the European total, not to mention another source I will discuss shortly. There's no question that about 500,000 Saturns and 300,000 PlayStations were sold within each console's first month or so on sale in Japan, and all of the figures in the first paragraph of "Decline" are good. The question remains of whether 170,000 or 200,000 Saturns were sold on the first day in Japan, but that is a relatively minor concern. While CESA's estimate of 9.27 million Saturns sold worldwide is lower than the previous consensus estimate of 9.5 million, it does not actually contradict any of the figures provided in the third paragraph of "Decline". Something else does, though.

Kent, page 558, citing the New York Times, says 2 million Saturns were sold in the US by March 1998. Trying to be clever, I found a later estimate of 2.7 million Saturns sold in the US by the end of 1998, as reported by Fairfield Research and ZDNet. Fairfield's simultaneous estimate of US PlayStation sales (13.4 million) matches up nicely with the 10.75 million PlayStations "shipped" during Kent's earlier timeframe. Unfortunately, someone at SegaRetro had to burst my bubble by posting a scan that raises some serious questions about this number, and about Saturn sales in Japan.

The Japanese Dreamcast Magazine, 2000/Vol.12,, which NeoGAF assures me is based on official Sega figures accurate as of March 1999, gives the following estimates for worldwide Saturn sales:
 * Japan: 5.75 million
 * US: 1.8 million
 * Europe: 1 million
 * Other: 0.53 million

I personally do not know whether to give this magazine any more credence than ZDNet/Fairfield, but it is worth pointing out the discrepancies here. Adding the Dreamcast Magazine figures together produces a figure of 9.08 million, well below the standard estimates of 9.26-9.5 million, even though the former estimate from CESA would apparently also be based on Sega's own data. On the other hand, if we keep the rest of the magazine's estimates but raise the tally for the US to 2.7 million, we reach a grand total of 9.98 million, which would seem to be far too high. Perhaps this has something to do with all the various licensed third-party Saturns produced by other manufacturers, which may or may not be included in the different estimates, but I'm not sure even NeoGAF truly knows how to reconcile this data by region. I doubt you do either, but I will leave this note here for inquiring readers.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 09:03, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
 * This may be all I have time to post for now, but NeoGAF user BKK has offered some additional evidence supporting the second set of figures and his speculation that they are official, namely this report stating that there were 5.2 million Saturns sold in Japan by September 1997, versus 1.75 million sold in the US. It seems plausible that the New York Times may have simply rounded these figures upwards or downwards. If the Saturn really only sold another 50,000 units in the US after August 1997, that is a truly devastating statistic.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:02, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Everything should be cleared up now.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 07:31, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to add one more comment for the record. I am inclined to believe that the discrepancy in the Sega figures is evidence that the Saturn was still shipping in small numbers in Japan in 1999. More importantly, the genuineness and validity of the Sega figure for the U.S. is further attested to by the NPD estimate of 1.4 million; NPD numbers from the time are prone to underestimation, but it wouldn't be that much of an underestimate if U.S. Saturn sales were closer to 3 million.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 06:52, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Looking to revise Game Library Section
I believe the game library is well-written, but could be improved. Here are some of my quirks:

1.) Bug! has received far too much emphasis. At best, it probably deserves just one line. The only thing that makes the title truly stand out is that Steven Spielberg publicly praised it. Even then, the Spielberg line is kind of shallow, seeing as despite being a really successful film director, he's not exactly a prestigious game critic/analyst.

2.) On the "Highly rated Saturn exclusives" list PD Saga is listed first and the rest is in alphabetical order. I confess this is most likely my OCD talking here, but I think it'd be better if PD Saga was also listed in alphabetical order alongside the rest of the list. Likewise, on the list of Sonic games, 3D Blast should probably precede Jam on the list as it came out first and precedes Jam alphabetically.

3.) Perhaps include Saturn Bomberman has a highly rated exclusive. It generally seems to appear on a lot of Top 10 lists and is still exclusive to the system.

Thoughts? If no one wants to dispute these I'll edit them in within the next 1 or 2 days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FightersMegamix (talk • contribs) 02:36, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
 * 1.) The Spielberg quote is relegated to the footnotes, but does by anecdote illustrate Sega's hype for Bug!. I wouldn't call two sentences "far too much emphasis", but it would be hard to object to a trimming without seeing what the condensed version might look like. 2.) If the "highly-rated exclusives" are in alphabetical order, that is just a happy coincidence. They are listed according to their scores on GameRankings. 3.) I believe Saturn Bomberman is included in "Top 10" lists out of laziness and that the game left no mark on critics or consumers at the time, but it would still technically qualify.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:18, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
 * 1.) I believe something like "The platformer Bug! received attention for it's eponymous main character being a potential mascot for the Saturn, but it failed to catch on as the Sonic series had." would work. 2.) Oh? So it was ordered that way? I understand now. Still think Sonic could be moved around though. 3.) It can be difficult to gauge what made an impact back then as the majority of the Saturn fanbase was in Japan. I am okay if no one wants to add it to the list, though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FightersMegamix (talk • contribs) 04:21, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I edited the platforming section, let me know what you think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FightersMegamix (talk • contribs) 02:10, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Saturn and transparency
See here and here for an analysis of the Saturn's hardware limitations and quirks with regard to the issue of transparency effects.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 05:21, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

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Pack-in
Although the initial $100 price difference between the PlayStation and the Saturn may have had an important psychological impact on the console war that ensued—in particular, Race's "$299" speech put a damper on Sega's disastrously botched surprise launch—its actual effect on consumers is more questionable, considering the Saturn's price was already lowered to $299 within weeks of the PlayStation's North American launch. Moreover, the price difference was a lot less than $100 if one adjusts for factors like pack-in games (the Saturn included Virtua Fighter) and memory cards (a requirement for PlayStation owners, but rendered moot by the Saturn's internal back-up memory—something a cost-cutting Sega would not repeat with the Dreamcast). If a memory card cost $25 and a game cost $50, then the actual price difference between the PlayStation and the Saturn even during that four-month window predating the PlayStation's release would be more like $374 to $399. Or am I completely wrong? Although I'm fairly certain that Virtua Fighter came free with the Saturn in North America, there is some evidence that it did not. For example, 1UP quotes Sega's May 11, 1995 launch announcement as saying: "Sega Saturn retails between $399 and $449 and includes Virtua Fighter and a 'Choice Cuts' video sampler of twenty Sega Saturn titles." In 1UP ' s summary, this becomes: "The Saturn was on shelves that day in select Toys R Us, Electronics Boutique, Software Etcetera and Babbages locations in a standalone $399 edition and a $449 package that included a copy of Virtua Fighter and a disc containing video previews of twenty more Saturn games." While that isn't the only way to interpret the quote, back in 2014 or 2015 I found two other references to the Virtua Fighter pack-in costing $449; one was a worthless "On this day in gaming history" blurb from Game Informer, but the other was an account by a contemporary news magazine (I no longer have either article on hand). Despite this, a Sega of America press release from May 19 states that "Virtua Fighter ... is free with every Sega Saturn unit and included in the box," which seems consistent with the vast majority of reliable sources I've seen. Still, a discrepancy exists, and I wouldn't mind knowing what explains it. When Sega dropped the price to $299, it also announced a $349 Saturn bundled with Virtua Fighter Remix, so it's not as though Sega was above lame bundles saving consumers marginal amounts of money (Remix cost $69.99 on release day, whereas early adopters got it for free).TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:09, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

North American launch lineup revisited
It's taken me a while to get back to this (those interested in the background can check out "Game Informer article" in archive 1 of this talk page), but I've since dug up another source for the Saturn's North American launch lineup. An article in Next Generation confirms the lineup listed in the Game Informer article: Virtua Fighter, Clockwork Knight, Panzer Dragoon, Worldwide Soccer, Daytona USA, and Pebble Beach Golf Links. However, I remain resolved to remove the Game Informer article; as mentioned before, it cites Wikipedia as a source, so per WP: CIRCULAR we should remove it. And again, while they happen to have hit the mark on the Sega Saturn's lineup, much of its info is embarrassingly wrong. They list games for the 3DO which didn't come out anywhere near launch day.--Martin IIIa (talk) 15:09, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the very late reply, but I think Game Informer should go back in, unless your source confirms (as GI does) that all six games were "published by Sega." If a better source can be found, great; but that key fact should not stand unsourced.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:56, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Front page:
What would be a good date to send this to the front page? I'm thinking 2019, as that's the 25 year anniversary. But that's two years off. Harizotoh9 (talk) 03:38, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Clockwork Knight
Current wording: Sega had wanted the launch to include both Clockwork Knight and Panzer Dragoon, but the latter was not ready in time. This is confusing. It could be read to mean that, since PD wasn't ready, neither game was available at launch. The source provided also doesn't say whether Clockwork Knight was a launch game, just that Sega wanted both PD and CK to be launch games. It doesn't necessarily follow that therefore CK was but PD wasn't. Popcornduff (talk) 04:28, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Confusing clause in lead
No, that sentence is still broken - and it's not just me.

The problem is with what appears to be the dependent clause. (Forgive me if you already know about this grammatical crap, but maybe other people who might read this don't.)

Examples of this kind of dependent clause:


 * Originally announced for 2015, Cool Game 2 was delayed until 2016. (The first clause is about Cool Game 2, established in the second clause.)
 * Hungry, Samantha went to a cafe. (The first clause is about Samantha, established in the second clause.)

Our sentence is:


 * Designed around a new CPU from Japanese electronics company Hitachi, another video display processor was incorporated in early 1994 to better compete with Sony's forthcoming PlayStation.

So what's the first clause referring to? What was designed around a new CPU from Hitachi?

The sentence structure suggests this information is contained the second clause (as in the examples above). So perhaps it's the "video display processor"? But in that case, the "another" breaks the syntax - it suggests it can't be whatever the first clause was talking about.

I suspect, after a lot of squinting at this paragraph, that the "designed around"... clause actually refers to the Sega Saturn in the previous sentence. Is that correct? If that's the case, the problem is that the dependent clause isn't linked to the following independent clause, which is confusing; they should be related, or else you get weird non-sequiturs like this:


 * Born in London, Samantha read a book.

I hope this is clear. Popcornduff (talk) 23:03, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * "I suspect, after a lot of squinting at this paragraph, that the "designed around"... clause actually refers to the Sega Saturn in the previous sentence." That's correct, and you're the one that removed the reference to the Saturn itself from that sentence in the immediately preceding copy-edit.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 01:42, 21 November 2019 (UTC)


 * But that don't change nothin - the dependent clause problem was there before my edit, too. The subject of the second clause was the video processors, not the Saturn, which doesn't fit the preceding clause.
 * Now I've confirmed what this is supposed to say, I've attempted a fix. Popcornduff (talk) 11:41, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Possibly useful source
Don't know how much this has been used, but this page has all the third-party Saturn games released in Japan between 1994 and 2000. This link is for first-party. Maybe useful. --ProtoDrake (talk) 19:58, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

"The Sega Saturn couldn't do true 3D."
Should this quote from a single Saturn dev really be there, considering it's patently false and gives the wrong impression? I mean, I know it's an actual quote from a Saturn developer and say what you will about the Saturn's capabilities vis a vis the Playstation, but it certainly could do "true 3D" as evidenced by plenty of fully polygonal games.

And what's with all the other boxed quotes peppered throughout that are more or less just shitting on the Saturn? While not overtly POV, they certainly hint at the POV of whomever put them up (presuming as I am that it was one person). It stinks. Am I alone in seeing it that way? Or is it just my rose-coloured Saturn nostalgia making me biased?

CrinklyCrunk (talk) 00:40, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
 * If there's proper context, it's fine. If not, then it should be added. Sergecross73   msg me  01:08, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Am I alone in seeing it that way? Or is it just my rose-coloured Saturn nostalgia making me biased? The latter.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 06:33, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't know about the other box quotes, but the one mentioned has always made me cringe. First and foremost, from the perspective of the general reader it's confusing, since no explanation is provided of what is meant by "true 3D". To the reader who has some familiarity with the Saturn's library - and in particular with Panzer Dragoon II itself, which qualifies for every common usage of the phrase "true 3D" - it's even more baffling. Second, if you look at the interview it's taken from, the quoted phrase is an offhand, unexplained remark in a detailed rundown of the Saturn's capabilities. The fact that out of all this commentary, the editor chose to select this vague, confusing, and seemingly outright false statement for a box quote does suggest POV-driven editing to me.--Martin IIIa (talk) 22:02, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I've been avoiding making any potentially controversial edits to this article, but it's been two months now with no reply to my above post, or indeed any actual rebuttal to CrinklyCrunk's post from over a year ago. So, I'm going to go ahead and remove the quote.--Martin IIIa (talk) 04:30, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I didn't see this discussion before. I support removing the quote - I doubt it's a POV issue, but it's confusing and probably not helpful for the general reader. Popcornduff (talk) 04:59, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Just as well, there's already multiple quote boxes that have more meaningful quotes about the hardware (and its shortcomings) anyways. Sergecross73   msg me  12:41, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

For the record, the relevant context can be found at Sega_Saturn: "A major criticism was the Saturn's use of 2D sprites to generate polygons and simulate 3D space. The PlayStation functioned similarly, but also featured a dedicated 'Geometry Transfer Engine' that rendered additional polygons. As a result, several analysts described the Saturn as an 'essentially' 2D system," all of which is sourced to the gaming press at the time. A related criticism can be found in Kent 2001, which states (as I recall) that the Saturn was good at rendering 3D objects but not complex 3D environments—perhaps appropriately enough, given that all of the action in Virtua Fighter takes place on a 2D plane. The fact that the quote comes from one of the lead designers of Panzer Dragoon II Zwei—itself widely cited as a showpiece for the Saturn's 3D capabilities—makes it more relevant, not less, although I'm not necessarily wedded to it.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 08:41, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I thought I'd throw out there as well that in doing research for Sega, I had to dig for a couple more Saturn sources and found comments along the same line in an article in Retro Gamer issue 134, which has a piece on the 20th anniversary of the Saturn. I don't have the exact quote at the moment, but there is a discussion about it there.   Red Phoenix  talk  11:12, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Tomb Raider
As noted on the game's own article, Core has stated that Tomb Raider was always intended to be a multiplatform game, and contemporary press coverage supports this. The notion that Tomb Raider was designed specifically around the Saturn seems to be an internet rumor stemming from the fact that the initial screenshots released were from the Saturn version. I looked over the cited sources: The series history article does not say that the game was "created with the Saturn in mind", only notes the aforementioned fact that the Saturn version was the first to be publicly seen. The other two only have quick blurbs on Tomb Raider, which makes it plausible that the writers did not do in-depth research on the game and simply quoted popular rumor of the time.--Martin IIIa (talk) 21:39, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Other sources make it pretty clear that the game was started for the Saturn, as Core was a well-regarded developer for Sega systems. Of course once the PlayStation was a thing, they decided to go multi-platform.  They actually did give Saturn a brief window of exclusivity out of deference to their relationship with Sega, but this ended up hurting that version of the game because it shipped with a bug or two that were fixed by the PlayStation release a couple of months later. Indrian (talk) 21:57, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Again, the sources don't really support this. We have the game's head developers plus every contemporary feature on the game saying that it was always multiplatform versus a couple retrospective online blurbs saying it was Saturn specific. The part about Core being devoted to Sega at the time doesn't hold up, either, since their previous Saturn game, Firestorm: Thunderhawk 2, is also established to have been developed for the Saturn and PlayStation simultaneously.--Martin IIIa (talk) 22:09, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I know it was never platform specific, in fact Jeremey Heath-Smith was partially inspired by the reveal of the PlayStation. I just mean that the company was focused on Saturn at first during that period before they realized the PlayStation was a thing.  I think that combined with the exclusivity and previous Sega focus this has confused some sources.  By the time Tomb Raider entered any real development phase, it was multi-platform. Indrian (talk) 22:56, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Even if it was by two weeks, Tomb Raider still was released on Saturn first and is still considered one of the best games of all time. I think it's still worth mentioning in the game library section.69.108.65.238 (talk) 21:39, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
 * The trouble with that is, if we mentioned every well-received multiplatform game for the Saturn, the games library section would be extremely bloated. That said, I don't think anyone is opposed to Tomb Raider being mentioned. My sole concern was with the claim that it was designed specifically around the Saturn.--Martin IIIa (talk) 04:26, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Personally I think it is a bit bloated as it is, but not enough to argue it.2605:E000:7D06:5B00:D57F:64CA:3982:D734 (talk) 05:52, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * There is one glaringly obvious point (at least I think it is) to support the claim that Tomb Raider was designed specifically around the Saturn that nobody has mentioned yet, which is how clear it is for any expert or indeed any person capable of distinguishing between a triangle and a quadrilateral to see that the 3D assets in all releases of the first Tomb Raider game are clearly optimised for systems that render quadrilaterals like the Saturn hardware renders. Whereas the PlayStation hardware renders triangles, only emulating quadrilaterals by putting two triangles together to form each quadrilateral, a practice which also causes texture distortion due to the fast method triangles are texture-mapped in the PlayStation hardware that is greatly reduced in the Tomb Raider sequels. Putting two triangles together also means that the PlayStation has to render twice as many polygons than the Sega Saturn for the same 3D asset. If the models had been optimised for the PlayStation then it wouldn't make sense to design the 3D assets this way. Considering the depressing state of the Saturn market along with the work required to convert the 3D assets to work on the Saturn would also explain at least partially the decision against the release of the Tomb Raider sequels on the Saturn because to do so would require designing the majority of the 3D assets in the games twice. Time which could be better spent developing more profitable PlayStation games. Do other people agree with me that to design 3D assets with quadrilaterals is playing to the Saturn's strength? 86.29.214.95 (talk) 02:29, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Reliable sources, please. No original research.   Red Phoenix  talk  02:50, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Game Library
Does anyone feel this is too bloated? Feels like a lot of it is "this game" "that game." In comparison, the Mega Drive page game library seems to be more to the point - saying that the popularity of the MD was built on Sonic, MK and sports games. For me I'd feel like I'd only really mention games that really made an impact. One title I am surprised is missing is Euros 96, given it was a big Saturn title in Europe. I'm thinking I'd do a rewrite and post it on the talk page to see what others think, unless everyone here has the mentality of "if its not broke why fix it."

Also it says Saturn has 600 games when I'm pretty sure the number is over 1,000. Soruce here: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/may/15/sega-saturn-how-to-buy

Another thing I noticed it says "Sega's failure to develop a football game for late 1996" but what about NFL 97? Released in 96: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/saturn/198139-nfl-97/data It was 1995 when Sega had no NFL to compare to Sony's NFL Gameday
 * I have fixed the error regarding the alleged lack of a football game in late 1996. You are correct; that should have said 1995. (Technically, the original version of the text from several years ago made a specific reference based on Kent p. 533 to the effect that "Sega did not have a football game ready for the 1996 fall season" to compete with EA's 16-bit Madden NFL '96—released in late 1995—which was already confusing and poorly-worded, but was later changed over the course of subsequent copyedits into the flat-out false "failure to develop a football game for late 1996.") Thank you for pointing that out!
 * I am not sure about the actual number of official releases for the Saturn. The Keith Stuart Guardian source that you presented above (which actually says "almost 1,000 titles" rather than over 1,000 titles) is (as you probably know) cited for other information in this article; silly though it may sound, I believe that the only reason I used the "nearly 600 official releases" from Jeremy Parish in USgamer instead is because that matched what Wikipedia's List of Sega Saturn games said at the time and I thought it better to avoid any discrepancy. (Yes, it's possible that Parish may have taken the figure from Wikipedia and that this could therefore be a case of circular reporting or citogenesis, although it's unlikely that we will ever know for sure.) Now, of course, List of Sega Saturn games has been expanded to over 1,000 entries and the discrepancy runs the other way. Wikipedia articles are not reliable sources and we should avoid using sources that are obviously derivative of Wikipedia to avoid citogenesis, but Stuart's 2015 Guardian article is plainly not derivative of Wikipedia entries from the time of its publication, which is a point in favor of its reliability. On the other hand, if we are being honest, neither of those sources are very high-quality or point to any sort of authoritative record to substantiate the numbers in question. All sources agree that a very large proportion of the Saturn's library never left Japan, which may make it more difficult to find credible English-language sources on this matter. It's certainly not something that I've researched or thought about in quite some time.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 16:20, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * No problem, glad we got that error with the year fixed. Another thing I'd question is that it says EA support of the Saturn was limited, but I'm not sure if that is true. Madden '96 was on neither Saturn or PlayStation, and then '97 was on both. Maybe after that EA favoured Sony, but the Saturn was pretty much over in the West by then.
 * Like I said before, I still think Euros 96 is worth a mention (probably in the sentence right after World Series Baseball/Worldwide Soccer). Yes it is a mediocre game, but it was a highly promoted console-exclusive for the system in Europe. Even the wikipedia page for the game itself mentions it, so surprise its not mentioned on this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_European_Championship_video_games#UEFA_Euro_1996
 * A YouTube video shows all 1107 Saturn games, but I'm not sure if its appropriate to cite YT. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pyMz4-fPgk
 * That YouTube video seems like an interesting resource and I appreciate you providing it, but as you say it likely would not meet Wikipedia's sourcing requirements. Either way, it seems unnecessary to provide an exact tally on this article, so I will remove the offending sentence for now. The next best option would be to cite Stuart 2015 for the "almost 1,000 titles" figure.
 * I don't know enough about the game that you mentioned to comment on it. If you can find reliable sources to establish its notability, then I would not have any objections to including it.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 17:56, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * https://segaretro.org/File:SSM_UK_16.pdf Go to page 10, and read the "May" section. Let me know if you consider that a credible source, it was a popular Saturn magazine in UK that even provided demos of games like Panzer Dragoon Saga.
 * Sega Saturn Magazine is definitely a RS, but I'm not sure if the brief blurb in question is enough to establish notability for inclusion on this page. Just my two cents.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 18:52, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd have to agree. I know our older game coverage isn't perfect, but the fact that no one has bothered to create that game's article in the many years since it's release makes it hard to argue that it was some sort of major/influential/standout game for the Saturn. Sergecross73   msg me  18:57, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * https://segaretro.org/index.php?title=File:CVG_UK_175.pdf&page=81 Computer & Video Game Magazine also called it one of the best Saturn games in its initial review. As for not having its own Wikipedia page, there isn't much of an enthusiasm for retro sports game especially PAL-esque ones on Wikipedia. That being said, it isn't too big of a deal. So I'll probably see this as my final input here. I'm just glad we were able to fix the factually incorrect year for the NFL game.

Shenmue
Regarding this edit: that's an awful lot of words for a game that began development towards the end of the Saturn lifecycle and didn't actually come out for Saturn at all.

I realise the early prototype Saturn version of Shenmue is of interest, but that's better covered on the Shenmue article. A sentence about how Suzuki saw it as a potential killer app for Saturn, but that it moved to DC, might make sense in this article, but we don't need to spend a paragraph here describing what is described as an "obscure prototype", the number of parts Shenmue was supposed to have, the number of hours the story was supposed to have etc... Shenmue just isn't that important to Saturn. Popcornfud (talk) 22:23, 4 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I'm looking at this again. What do you think of this shorter version?
 * In 1996, Sega AM2 head Yu Suzuki began developing what he hoped would be a killer app for the Saturn, a multi-part role-playing game in the Virtua Fighter series. As the scope expanded, the Virtua Fighter connection was dropped and development moved to the Saturn's successor, Dreamcast; the game was released in 1999 as Shenmue.


 * Incidentally, I can't find any mention in the sources of Suzuki developing "several Saturn-exclusive games". Popcornfud (talk) 21:29, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The source is IGN, July 13, 1999.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:40, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. That source isn't given next to that claim in the current version, but for the claim afterwards, so I didn't find it. I also think it would be clearer to say Suzuki and AM2 developed several Saturn games, not began developing several Saturn games - I initially took this information, as written in the article, to mean they were several prototype projects, like Shenmue. Popcornfud (talk) 21:46, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

the Sega Saturn sales
Let me start by saying the sales numbers of the Sega Saturn is way off by a lot, Sega of Japan was so embarrassed by the performance of the console, they would never publicly say how many the Saturn sold, but most people don't know the reasoning of why by 1997 26 million people in the U.S. had a genesis but only 3.5 million had a Saturn in the same time period, the Saturn was so hard to get, in my home town Evansville Indiana, almost no stores had the system. Only one person I knew in 1996 had a Saturn, which was my cousin Marco! He told me he bought it on a field trip to St. Luis 6ix Flag's. Next to no retail stores had the Sega Saturn due Sega of Japan forcing Sega of America to release the console too early, this ticked off almost every retailer who supported the popular Sega Genesis because if the had took the offer of an early Saturn on May 11, 1995 they would five games on launch day which isn't bad until you factor in, no Sonic game. That's where reality sets in and stings like a bee. So with that said, the Final sales of the Sega Saturn by the Second quarter of the year 2000 was 16.8 million worldwide with 10 million sold in Japan from Nov, 1994 to April, 2000. 3.5 million from May 1995 to April 1998 in America and another 3 million worldwide. The 9.87 million was the early 1997 number from Sega Magazine I read but its been miss understood for the entire lifespan of the console. Releasing the console early was not the problem, it was not communicating with the 3rd parties and retailers about the early release plus not sharing the tool info about the Saturn with developers. This would have led more, people to be patient with the Saturn, look at the PS2 and PS3, both extremely hard to develop for but patience pays off. Most of the game for the Sony PlayStation games were actually Saturn exclusives at one point. For what if sake, If Sega of America put their foot down and said we will released the Saturn on June 10 or Saturnday 1995, and warned all retailers, ask about the coding and tool kits, and dropped the price of the development kit from 17,000 dollars to say $2,000, it would have sold like hot cake. But the failure wasn't the Saturn's fault, it was poor coordination on Sega's part. If these thing's were done, by my calculations the Saturn would have sold more then the Nintendo 64, probably 45 million units worldwide with 18 to 22 million in the U.S.

Sales I know of is, Genesis- 47.8 million Worldwide with 26 million sold in the U.S by 1997 Sega 32x- 1.3 million worldwide with 670,000 in the U.S. by 1996 Sega CD- 6.6 million worldwide with 3.1 million in the U.S. and 1.1 million in Japan Sega Saturn- 16.8 million with 3.5 million in the U.S. Dreamcast- 11 million worldwide with 7 million in the U.S.

These are in Sega Magazine on the internet for all to see, thats where i got my info — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6010:7706:1A00:B1A6:EE9F:C533:D239 (talk) 04:17, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty certain the current number we use for Saturn sales came from a pretty deep dive of research, so you'll probably have to at least present your own sources to really to have much of a discussion here. Sergecross73   msg me  13:07, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Considering your number for Dreamcast is one we know to be false, the information you're reviewing is suspect. -- ferret (talk) 13:30, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Saturn is remembered for several well-regarded games, including the Virtua Fighter series
Does anyone find this sentence rather odd? Yes the Virtua Fighter games are the best selling games on the system, but they debuted in arcades and that's where they made their impact.

Additionally I find it strange that Sakura Wars, one of the most important Sega Saturn releases, isn't even given it's own sentence this entire article.92.239.112.26 (talk) 00:28, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Considering that the Saturn was designed to bridge the gap between Sega's Model 1 and Model 2 arcade boards in order to bring Virtua Fighter and several other arcade hits to the home with minimal compromises, that Virtua Fighter sold at a nearly 1:1 ratio with the Saturn hardware during the latter's Japanese launch, that Virtua Fighter was bundled with the Saturn for a time in the U.S., and that Virtua Fighter 2 is the best-selling game for the system, I don't find discussing the Virtua Fighter series as an important part of the Saturn's game library to be an odd or distracting digression. In the same way, it seems completely natural to refer to Crazy Taxi as one of the definitive Dreamcast games. It might be anachronistic in 2021, but back in the mid-1990s the ability to render competent arcade ports was a selling point for many home consoles. With regard to your second point, the Sakura Wars games have often been given short shrift in English-language sources due to their lack of Western localization, but feel free to propose content backed by reliable sources on this talk page for consideration.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 01:07, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Seconded - this was pretty much what I was going to write out. The VF info doesn't seem weird to me considering how much the article documents it's positive critical reception, sales, and that it's considered the first 3D fighting game. I have no objection to adding content about Sakura Taisen, but I also don't know what I'd say either, so you'd have to dig up a reliable source and propose what should be added. Sergecross73   msg me  01:16, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * For Sakura Wars, if these sources are Wikipedia-valid I could probably write something up for Sakura Wars:
 * https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2020-04-15-an-introduction-to-sakura-wars-the-rpg-series-created-to-save-the-sega-saturn
 * https://www.ign.com/articles/1999/10/19/sakura-wars-strikes-the-dreamcast 80.192.165.53 (talk) 18:42, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Sakura Wars
Here's a template of what we could add to expand on Sakura Wars:

One of the biggest killer apps for the Saturn in Japan were the Sakura Wars games (ref 1: https://www.ign.com/articles/1999/10/19/sakura-wars-strikes-the-dreamcast). Co-developed by Sega and Red Entertainment, Sakura Wars mixed elements of tactical RPGs, anime cutscenes and visual novels (ref 2: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2020-04-15-an-introduction-to-sakura-wars-the-rpg-series-created-to-save-the-sega-saturn). Despite games such as Sakura Wars and Grandia[18] helping make the Saturn popular in its homeland, they never saw a Western release due to Sega of America's policy of not localizing RPGs and other Japanese games that might have damaged the system's reputation in North America.[35][218]

Thoughts?80.192.165.53 (talk) 22:10, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Technical stats
First of all, I would like to state that if the way that I cited some of these sources is difficult for other users to follow, then I apologize, but back in 2014-2015 I thought that it was cool and stylish to sometimes include citations at the end of a sentence for the sentence as a whole while simultaneously placing a specific citation for a singular detail (like the SCU having its own DSP) immediately adjacent to that detail but in the middle of the broader sentence. Apparently, that can result in confusion when sentences are trimmed or moved around in the course of copyedits by users that do not necessarily know which citation is supposed to correspond to which statement. In addition, I don't think that we are supposed to link directly to manuals like Sega of America's (dated June 1994) for COPYVIO reasons (although it is easily found on Sega Retro), and I did not know how to use the  code to display different page numbers from the same document, factors that may complicate attempts at verification. Regardless, the following excerpts from the manual substantiate content in the "Technical specifications" section of this article and will be preserved for the record:
 * Article text: "The system contains ... a custom sound processor with an integrated Yamaha FH1[145] DSP running at 22.6 MHz." Saturn Overview Manual lists the DSP running at 22.6 MHz on p. 6.
 * Article text: "the VDP1 (which handles sprites, textures and polygons) and the VDP2 (which handles backgrounds)." Saturn Overview Manual, p. 9, states: "VDP1 controls sprites (character). ... Polygons can also be displayed. ... VDP2 controls display of the background screen (scroll screen) as well as the display priority order."
 * Article text: "The Saturn's System Control Unit (SCU), which controls all buses and functions as a co-processor of the main SH-2 CPU, has an internal DSP[14] running at 14.3 MHz." Saturn Overview Manual, p. 8, states: "The SCU controls all buses (A-bus, B-bus, CPU-bus) and functions as a co-processor of the main CPU." (In case there is any doubt, it also defines the SH-2X2 as "the main CPU.") In addition to the Next Generation cite, which is largely superfluous here, the chart on p. 6 lists the SCU's DSP running at 14.3 MHz.

Ironically, I was about to blame resident copyeditor Popcornfud for messing up the citations regarding the SCU, but it was actually the IP himself who removed the "Saturn Overview Manual" as a source in one edit, and then "caught" the unsourced/failed verification statement in his next edit, which is just plain silly. Either way, I may try to clean this up a bit more momentarily.

IP: Please stop edit warring and participate here on the talk page instead!TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:08, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

With regard to the sound situation, pp. - list two processors for sound: "The Motorola 68EC000 carries a 16-bit CPU for sound. Processing speed is much faster than earlier systems. ... The SCSP [Saturn Custom Sound Processor] controls the sound of the PCM/FM sound generator. It supports the FM sound generator of conventional systems and can support PCM sound. Tone quality has improved to CD-D/A (Compact Disc-Digital/Audio) levels." Perhaps that clarifies the difference for the techies out there? From my perspective as a non-techy, the main information that editors were trying to convey at the time is something along the lines of "two of the Saturn's eight processors relate to sound"—it might not seem like much today, but a considerable amount of effort went into tracking down all eight of them in the sources—not to expound on their function in any great detail.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:46, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank goodness I'm blameless for once... (And yet I still feel blamed somehow.) Popcornfud (talk) 01:28, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

"Saturn digital gamepad" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Saturn digital gamepad and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 5 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 06:17, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Game Library: Bug
A recent documentary shows the Spielberg line and media up behind Bug was largely exagerrated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8AVwj0K5nw&t=231s

(Long video, but first 4 minutes covers it)

Given that, should we take the mention of it out of the game library? 92.234.130.167 (talk) 23:57, 20 May 2023 (UTC)


 * No, because this isn't a reliable source by any stretch of imagination. -- ferret (talk) 01:01, 21 May 2023 (UTC)