Talk:Selective mutism

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Cultural references
A few of the links in 'cultural references' and the 'list of well-known people' are referencing cases of hysterical mutism (sudden onset of mutism, often because of trauma). These are misleading and they conflict with some of the other parts of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.80.110.120 (talk) 19:09, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Something needs to be done here. The cultural references section is driving me crazy. We need to make some decision about what is acceptable. I expect I'll be enforcing it, since probably nobody checks this page as often as I do. (Which I do mostly because of the cultural references.) Still, I'd rather not feel like I'm enforcing rules nobody else agreed on.

My opinion is this: valid cultural references have to agree with the DSM diagnosis. The first item in this is: Consistent failure to speak in specific social situations (in which there is an expectation for speaking, e.g., at school) despite speaking in other situations. In other words, it has to be selective (or at least start out so, but I have yet to see a story about someone who was progressively mute). Almost all of the references I delete are not selective. Unless someone comes up with a good argument to the contrary, I will continue to delete references to characters who do not speak in any situation.

The latest addition I'm not clear on, but I deleted it because my guess is that she never speaks: '''In British television series Skins, the character Effy suffers from selective mutism. Her first line of dialogue occurs in an episode at the end of the first season, during a scene in which she is experiencing drug-induced psychedelia.'''

A few specific issues:

1. The Big Bang Theory. I'm not sure what constitutes an editing war, but this is as close as I've seen yet. I have deleted it a few times, but usually I don't personally care. I have not seen the show, but I've read the various ways people have described it on this page. I see why people would take it out -- it seems like a parody of the disorder. However, it is probably anxiety-induced, if you use that as part of the criteria, and it is selective. So my opinion is that we should keep it. I'd like to hear the opinion of the people who continually delete it.

Three I added that have been deleted: 2. 'In Obasan'' by Joy Kogawa, the main character often seems to be selectively mute. "Inside the house... there is confidence and laugher... but outside, even in the backyard... speech hides within me, watchful and afraid." However, twice in the book, she answers aloud when someone asks her if she can speak.''' If anyone has read the book, I'd really like your opinion, but I feel that it probably qualifies.

3. 'In The Playmaker'' by J. B. Cheaney, the main character explains in the first chapter that, since childhood, "in moments of extreme feeling, I literally could not speak." While this problem rarely appears, this is an example of selective mutism being used in characterization.''' Who has a problem with this? Why? He truly has enormous difficulty speaking a few times in the book when he is very upset about something. Sounds like SM to me.

4. The song "Mariella" by Kate Nash is about a girl who never speaks and has no friends, but she is described as being "happy in her own little world" and not wanting to talk. If anyone wants to hear this song, I can probably find it again. You will probably see why I and the selectively mute person I learned about it from believe that this is describing SM from a different perspective.

And, finally, I will say again that I think we need to create a page for elective mutism, where we can go over the history, link to this page, and dump rejected cultural references. After all, I'm pretty sure the diagnosis for elective mutism was that the child does not speak despite being able to, not that the child speaks in one situation and not another.

Please discuss. Elemarth (talk) 02:00, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Considering nobody has answered this, I am adding back in my three. Elemarth (talk) 17:04, 9 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I looked up the lyrics to Kate Nash's Mariella -- it also sounds like a description of girls on the autism spectrum, since a lot of us are either like the narrator, Mariella, or switch between the two SM-like. A lot of other little points fit as well, like her rejection of feminine attire, being happy in her own world, strength & ritualistic pursuit of one subject (always getting the daily crossword right)...


 * So I'm not saying you're wrong, more just noting that it's one of those odd cases where two groups (which probably overlap a lot more than we realize) identify with the same character. ☥ Xyzzy Avatar ☥ 05:43, 22 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xyzzyavatar (talk • contribs)

I'm iffy on the inclusion of Charles Wallace from A Wrinkle In Time. The film didn't mention (as the book does) that he had a severe speech delay until he was four years old, is/was considered mentally challenged by people outside the family, and speaks more like an adult; since he comes across more like a little professor than a boy, he becomes the target of violent bullying when he starts school in the second book. That's much more the profile of an autistic spectrum child than one with selective mutism, I think. --☥ Xyzzy Avatar ☥ 06:59, 22 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xyzzyavatar (talk • contribs)

Most "Well-known people with selective mutism" do not actually have it and many of the "cultural references" seem to be off. I'll change what I'm sure of, but somebody who knows these references better needs to check them. I've glanced at Torey Hayden's book, and I'm not sure that qualifies. Selective mutism is not caused by trauma or stuttering. These are different issues. Selective mutism is only caused by anxiety. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.250.225.138 (talk) 23:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I question the validity of the cultural references for The Makioka Sisters and Lizzie McGuire. Somebody should check that. I deleted the last "famous person" because the article on him said that he had schizophrenia. Really, I cannot emphasize enough that people are not selectively mute if they stutter or are schizophrenic. That is part of the definition of the disorder, which is mentioned in the article. It is better to have few cultural references and no famous people than to confuse readers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.250.225.138 (talk) 17:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Something missing?
I think there's something missing from this sentence which mentions effective treatments i.e. "The effectiveness of current treatment methods, generally involving therapy and gentle and supportive introductions to social situations." Maybe something about how successful or otherwise such approaches have proven to be? Can anyone help? Sadly, my own experience working this way with a selectively mute nearly-four-year-old has been unsuccessful in helping her begin to speak to anyone other than her mother. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MiriamT (talk • contribs) 05:43, 26 June 2005 (UTC)

Additions and Quality
Some details of treatments added, and links to other places where help is available. Needs a little work on the main body still I think Codec 14:13, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I have started to make some changes to improve the stylistic quality, but I think it would also benefit from so re-structuring for clarity. There is quite a bit of repetition of earlier statements in the "treatment" section, for example. Also, I'm unsure what the following means in that section, can anyone clarify (I'm too lazy to work out who wrote it...): Sometimes in this situation, a change of environment (such as changing schools) to a place where the condition is not proven make the difference.

--Gilgongo (talk) 22:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

rm POV tag from drug treatments section
I removed the POV tag from the Drug treatments section. No messages were left here as to why it was added, and no dispute is taking place. --W2bh (talk) 14:45, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Is this really an anxiety disorder?
I doubt people with selective mutism necessarily have an "anxiety disorder" (and if it is officially categorized as this, I think they did a bad job with the categorization). People with this disorder are not necessarily anxious. In any case, most/all of the sources [citing this as an anxiety disorder] are broken and need to be fixed. --173.52.1.202 (talk) 11:04, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * To my knowledge, it is classified as this. Studies have shown that over 90% of children with Selective Mutism have severe anxiety.  What do you think it is?  Can you find sources (written after the name change from Elective Mutism, please) that support your view?  Thank you for pointing out the two broken links.  (In fact, they are the same link.  Can the same link be cited twice without it showing up twice?)  I fixed them.  Please read that and look at other references, especially the "Current Conceptualization," which is number four right now.  I realize that many of the sources are not very good, and I am trying to find better ones. Elemarth (talk) 23:11, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


 * "Studies have shown that over 90% of children with Selective Mutism have severe anxiety." 90%+ suggests that severe anxiety is highly correlated with SM, and not a necessary condition (even if 100% of people with SM had severe anxiety, it would still not necessarily be a necessary condition).  Nonetheless, people with SM can be feasibly categorized as "typically" (but not necessarily) exhibiting severe anxiety.  This Wikipedia article, however, currently states that SM is an outright anxiety disorder, as if it was a necessary condition of SM.  If it is officially an anxiety disorder, then 100% of people with SM should necessarily have anxiety.  Also, if it is officially an anxiety disorder, I'm curious.  What would people who are voluntarily mute but do not suffer from anxiety (more likely apathy) probably have that is causing them to be voluntarily mute?  Depression? --96.246.60.72 (talk) 05:14, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


 * You have a point. I don't think anyone knows this.  (Some people, by the way, say 95+ percent rather than 90 percent.)  All I have is this: "For some children, MUTISM is the most noted symptoms. Meaning, they ARE able to engage and have astute nonverbal skills (professional mimes!). These children are STUCK in the nonverbal stage of communication and suffer from a subtype of SM called: SPEECH PHOBIA."  (Speech Phobia has apparently been used to mean children who are mute from abuse, but the meaning seems to have changed.)


 * In any case, SM is often referred to as a speech or communication anxiety disorder. Maybe something does need to be changed there.  I once mentioned on a forum that I thought SM was a symptom of Social Phobia (rather than a co-disorder), and I was told by an adult with SM that she physically couldn't talk, but any social anxiety she had was a result of knowing that she couldn't answer if someone asked her something!  So maybe it should be called a communication anxiety disorder that happens to often occur in children with Social Phobia.  But I'm not sure I could find something to cite for that.  I'd love it if you'd look around for something! Elemarth (talk) 23:11, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It is, in fact, officially an anxiety disorder in the DSM 5. I think it's safe to call it that now. --Elemarth (talk) 20:36, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * What is the evidence that this disorder actually exists? The people themselves claiming they can't speak at certain times? Wouldn't that be original research? Wouldn't it be odd that a disorder can be labeled for something Wikipedia doesn't even allow?

Has there been any studies where the vocal chords, or brain is actually examined to see if it is actually impossible to talk at certain times? 2605:A000:1E02:C30A:98B1:AC9D:A99E:FD79 (talk) 07:08, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Improving the SM Page in Wikipedia
A group of people is forming to try to improve this page. The group thus far includes a parent of a successful SM child, a mental health professional who focuses on SM, and an expert researcher. We started discussing it on the Selectivemutismsupportgroup at yahoogroups. We would be happy to have help. Especially from someone who has collaborated on Wikipedia articles. It is expected that this article will be the first point of contact for some desperate parents and teachers, even though that is not Wikipedia's primary goal. It would be nice to take this possibility into consideration. Pachai (talk) 14:23, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I've been feeling rather desperate because I don't have access to studies to cite and I felt pretty much alone in watching this page.  I called for help on forums.selectivemutism.org and didn't get any positive responses to that issue. In case anyone needs convincing, this is the second website that comes up when you search selective mutism.  It was the first place I learned about it.  People hear a term and go to Wikipedia to find out what it is.
 * I don't have any credentials at all. I just seemed to be the only one trying to add to the article and keep it about the anxiety disorder, not elective mutism.  (I also think we should create a separate page for elective mutism to keep incorrect cultural references off this page.)  I'll help if you need me, but I'd rather let people who know more about this do the editing now. Elemarth (talk) 12:33, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I added the SelectiveMutismSupportGroup on Yahoo Groups. This is an effective resource under "Organizations" for many parents and educators needing more information. Is there any reason not to do this? Or to put this link under another heading? Pachai (talk) 14:49, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Legal Help
I think it would be good to have some links for laws that help SM kids, and/or organizations that can help their parents.

Pachai (talk) 18:23, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

We definitely have links to organizations. How exactly do you link to laws? There is a brief paragraph about IEPs and 504s, but this could and should be expanded by someone with experience.

Elemarth (talk) 02:01, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Controversy?
Someone added a line in the description about remaining controversy over whether selective mutism is due to stubbornness. I'm not saying that no reliable psychologists believe this - I know some do. But the source is from 1988, which, in my opinion makes it invalid. This wasn't identified as having to do with anxiety by 1988. I don't want to force my opinion on everyone, and it's only one line, so I'll leave it for the moment. But if this is going to stay, could someone please find a study since 1994 that supports it? At least find an examples from recent times where a child actually refused to speak at school and/or an explanation of why preschoolers would do that. Proof that treating it as stubbornness (giving punishments and rewards for talking or not) is actually successful would be a very good argument, since I've never heard that it works, or if it does, not anywhere near as well as treating it as anxiety does. --Elemarth (talk) 18:38, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Reference 12 in regard to negative and positive characteristics of selective mutism hardly seems logical. I would say I am a selectively mute person and after examining the source for this information, it is hardly reputable. I recommend that this section of the page be reviewed by someone of more authority than me, as I am just a visitor, but seriously, the source is "myoutofcontrolteen.com", a self-help site made by Mark Hutten, M.A., basing these assertions on what is likely his own clinical experiences, which should not form a reference for Wikipedia information. You can't just make sweeping generalizations that these characteristics tend to be found among selectively mute individuals without empirical evidence, which for a topic like this is probably not going to be investigated specifically. More appropriate would be a reference to studies done on the underlying disorder, social anxiety, and examining whether those types tend to do better on mental aptitude test. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.176.226.10 (talk) 18:14, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

The first paragraph of this article is sloppy and inaccurate
Claiming that Selective Mutism "is a severe social anxiety disorder or social phobia" is simply not backed up by the recent scientific papers and articles on the subject. It is true taht SM can coexist with anxiety disorder and social phobia, but to claim it IS AD or SP, is strecthing things to far. I have therefore changed the wording. --KaldMigMads (talk) 19:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Can you provide links to or summarize the recent articles? I'd be very interested to know what they said. Though studies have shown that it's strongly correlated with SAD, you're right that it isn't really proven to be an anxiety disorder. I like your wording better, though I hope you won't mind that I edited it to "shyness or (often severe) social anxiety". That still allows a range but keeps in the SAD connection. --Elemarth (talk) 19:37, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Garbage article, nominate for deletion
Refusal to speak as a disorder? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.176.27.223 (talk) 15:11, 17 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Try reading the article, you'll find that SM has been extensively documented for several decades already and is in the official DSM. Sheesh, talk about a silly use of the "nominate for deletion" option... ☥ Xyzzy Avatar ☥ 05:45, 22 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xyzzyavatar (talk • contribs)

Comparisons with autistic spectrum - contradiction & ambiguity
I noticed significant contradictions between the description of how SM kids are different from Autistic kids and later descriptions of SM kids -- bringing it up because I'm not remotely knowledgeable enough about Selective Mutism to know how to tackle it.


 * "(Autistic kids show) repetitive behaviors...sensory integration difficulties... that set them apart from a child with selective mutism."


 * "Some children with selective mutism may have sensory integration dysfunction (and) may have some auditory processing difficulties."


 * "(speech phobic mutism) also involved ritualistic behaviors"

The section mentioning SM kids as sometimes having SID and APD (also extremely common among autistics) is current. While "speech phobic" was dropped as a subcategory, it's not made clear how much of the description still applies to selective mutism.

Finally, there's one sentence in the autism/SM comparison section that comes across as ambiguous:


 * "Evaluation of children with these symptoms by a developmental pediatrician is critical for early intervention."

It's unclear whether this refers to early intervention for mutism or autism. If it's autism, it's somewhat of a problematic statement since there's so much controversy, junk science, and studies (some more scientific than others) on both sides over what's helpful, neutral, and damaging for little kids on the spectrum. --☥ Xyzzy Avatar ☥ 06:40, 22 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xyzzyavatar (talk • contribs)

Selective mute
I think that many selective mutes are also HSPs, Highly Sensitive People. Many of the characteristics also apply to HSPs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.57.146.77 (talk) 22:17, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Selective mutism is often related to the freeze response. When a response of fight-or-flight would fail, the only alternative left is the freeze response. (My credentials are personal experience).--205.167.120.201 (talk) 14:51, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The question is: What is the cause and what an effect (symptom)?? --MediScholar (talk) 10:10, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Medication
Hello everyone, I was diagnosed with Selective Mutism in childhood, some 20 years ago. However, I did not find the type of medication, I was used to take over one year. It was “Methylphenidate“, also known as “Ritalin®“. I would appreciate it, if one could add further information on that kind of treatment. Thank you in advance. --95.116.95.124 (talk) 09:34, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

physical/emotional abuse during early age may caused selective mutism — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.159.65.214 (talk) 06:46, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Mutism
hi hello — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.176.175.180 (talk) 15:33, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Popular culture
The section "In popular culture" currently lists three fictitious cases, and one real-word case (Greta Thunberg, citing herself for the fact). Though popular, Greta does not really fit the "Popular culture" heading. One could add a section, "Famous cases" or the like, or, considering we only have one "famous case", the heading "In popular culture" could be changed to... what?--Nø (talk) 19:36, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

See Titular character from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komi_Can%27t_Communicate — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.244.141.67 (talk) 08:22, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Signs/symptoms - antagonization
I can say from my own experience of selective mutism; it can also have to deal with intimacy with other persons, as if there's a point where you're completely freely speaking with and even against them (which likely requires them having a large friendly presence in your life), whereas with more antagonization it's very likely to really build up "hatred" that can last for long time past its active time (e.g. an antagonized childhood peer later in your life).

And also silence in front of antagonists or strangers when in dialogue with other persons, whereas you'd enjoy noise (so you have the feeling the other party isn't listening to you directly) in those situations - contrary to "sensitivity to noise and crowds". --95.168.120.39 (talk) 15:47, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Interesting, ta. Pity we cannot use it here. Zezen (talk) 03:35, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

"On the positive side..."
This seems like a rather loaded way of wording things. Also, while three sources are cited, one of them seems to just be quoting another one verbatim. I'll just combine both lists while transferring the citations, though I would prefer further review on them. 2803:4600:1116:12E7:7D25:B018:7F73:DFDD (talk) 06:56, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

How/Where is this different from grey rocking?
I.e. two articles both from a reputable source (Cleveland Clinic, an academic hospital), that seem to me in many ways the same thing. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/selective-mutism https://health.clevelandclinic.org/grey-rock-method

Or is this "gray rocking" not officially recognised in medicine? Wallby (talk) 14:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)